General WoD Discussion #2: Its time to Celebrate!

[The Glyphstone]

I'd like to see some book citations as well, since this portrayal of True Fae as paranoid epic-level D&D wizards rather than the semi-mythical alien space bats they're presented as in the Lost material I've read is quite odd.

[ToySoldierCPlus]

Everything I've mentioned so far has come from Equinox Roads, chapter 3 "Faerie," primarily pages 90-93, the sections on Actors and Props in the "Omnipotence Constrained" section of the chapter. The bit about how True Fae need conflict to survive is from earlier in that same chapter, pages 83 and 84 specifically.

[Turalisj]

I'd like to see some book citations as well, since this portrayal of True Fae as paranoid epic-level D&D wizards rather than the semi-mythical alien space bats they're presented as in the Lost material I've read is quite odd.

I've found that people tend to say "screw the lore, I have mechanics!" until someone calls them out on it. It happens a disgustingly large amount of time with Exalted and DnD 3.5.

[Leliel]

I've found that people tend to say "screw the lore, I have mechanics!" until someone calls them out on it. It happens a disgustingly large amount of time with Exalted and DnD 3.5.

And I've found that DMs say "screw the players, I have lore" too many times to think anti-simulationism is a good idea. There has to be some, both to help the unimaginative and those who want to call out the jerks.

Thus, we can honestly say why John Wick sucks as a writer, when his own NPCs don't follow the players' rules without concessions.

[Eisenfavl]

Equinox road is going to be at least 90% of any conversation regarding True Fae, because it basically re-wrote them from the ground up as something... awesome.

A 1-title Fae is either a newly-formed Fae, or one that has been losing its Feud very badly for quite some time. Besides, it could have plenty of reasons to go harass a changeling. Maybe it wants its old slave back to help it regain some titles. Maybe part of its legend involves it coming to earth, regardless of its number of title. Maybe it just wants to grab more slaves, as changelings can provide the conflict it needs to survive without it having to risk its title against other True Fae until it can gain a back-up title or two. It may not even be planning to go anywhere near the Freehold. Besides, it has to send an actor (or a wisp legion, I suppose) to carry its prop(s).

Have you read the Game of Immortals (Appendix to Equinox Road, the True Fae game thing)? It's a competitive storytelling contest, having extra manpower (changelings) doesn't help win more titles.
Also, the wyrd oracle roll makes it hard to get glorious legends against (and thus have a chance to eat) Fae with few titles, while many-title Fae are easy prey if you can out-story them, so it makes a lot more sense to stay in Arcadia at this time.
Changelings have no titles (and the Fae has no Feud Promises regarding their names, if those are valid), so dwindling would occur regardless.

If you had read my posts before, you would have seen that I was saying an Actor with 2 Props, not just props themselves.

Having a prop in the real world is a safety measure. And yes, the other True Fae can strike you down in the real world. If an actor is killed, or a prop destroyed in the real world, that title is severed.
Having a prop in the real world is a safety measure. So is having an actor: it's just a much shorter term safety measure (it's probably safer, though). The other True Fae can kill you in the real world, but that's not the same as eating a title.

Sending any of your titles to earth means you don't have your full mind in Arcadia. Props can't communicate with Actors or Wisps unless they're in Arcadia. If they're not, they're on their own. Besides, the Fae itself would remain in Arcadia. It loses contact with any of its Titles it sends to earth until they return, regardless of how many that is. If the Fae's main consciousness, the single most vulnerable part of it, is forced to remain in Arcadia, why would it send all of its titles to Earth, where they can be destroyed by changelings or captured by other True Fae and dragged back to Arcadia to be subsumed before their owner realizes what's happened?
I don't think anyone here is saying that going to Earth as a True Fae is a good idea. In my previous posts I specifically said that a Fae would only go to Earth to claim an opponents prop, so I guess you're just restating our position?

(Also, I'm pretty sure you/we're right, but which page is Props being subsumed if separated from the main body on?)

Every prop has a weakness, and hints of what that weakness is. Every realm is hospitable, and has a single point at which it can be destroyed. When the True Fae take on any form, they willingly constrain their own omnipotence s that they may experience meaningful conflict. Yes, this usually comes from other True Fae. Sometimes it comes from the human slaves the Fae has captured and dragged back to Arcadia.
The Fae don't get anything from this conflict with changelings. They just don't have any feud-promises on the changelings to eat whatever essence they may have. Essentially, while knowing the story of a title in it's current form lets you have a chance, the titles don't have forms when they aren't being contested by another true Fae. Changelings have no meaningful conflict with True Fae in Arcadia. True Fae don't leave Arcadia except to attack other True Fae. Therefore, changelings cannot meaningfully harm True Fae (they can help other True Fae to do it in specific circumstances, though).
Further, you're overestimating props. The only time they get those 5+Titles automatic successes is when they're relevant to what the prop's power is. Every prop's power is very narrow. A toolkit that can repair any engine doesn't automatically provide 5+titles successes to someone using it to build a house; it provides its normal equipment bonus. A sword that always strikes true doesn't provide 5+titles automatic successes on its attack, it would simply be guaranteed to do at least 1 damage on each attack.
I'll start this with a quote.

For instance, a Fae dagger could kill anyone it struck or never fail to strike an enemy, but it never does both. Prop powers usually don’t use dice pools, but some powers might require them as a yardstick by which to measure the strength of an effect. In these cases, use the wielder’s dice pool and add an equipment bonus of 5 dice +1 for every Title the faerie possesses. If the Storyteller needs to measure successes, don’t roll these dice. Each die automatically generates 1 success. If the power would still fail, increase the number of dice and/or successes until the power scores one success. These dice and automatic successes only apply to the Prop’s special powers when it’s absolutely necessary to gauge a power’s effects this way. Whenever possible, the power should just work.

My Prop Bow always hits, like the dagger. How do you measure the capacity to hit? Why, in Nwod, you roll an attack! So when I roll an attack for hitting and damage, I apply the special bonus's of the Prop.

Did you even read the "Omnipotence Constrained" section? Yes, a raw True Fae is dicelessly godlike. No, none of its forms are. That's the whole point of taking forms. The True Fae must take these lesser forms so that they may experience struggle and conflict, whether through feuds with other True Fae, or through interaction with captured humans, who aren't bound by the law of the feud.
Yes, the point of taking forms is to avoid issues where both parties are similarly infinite and just ignore creativity on the basis of power.
When slaughtering changelings, none of these rules apply. Forms don't have to be taken, because there is no feud. Realms don't have to be hospitable, unless they made that pledge to you.

Also, I tend to use dicelessly godlike to consider the fact that True Fae will always out-stat even cyclic stat boosting systems, because they always get at least one. (Making them, for instance, one of the few ways to take actions opposing a mage who's set up 12^^16 dice penalties on actions against them.)

They're absurdly powerful Fae who still need conflict to survive, lest they begin to lose those titles? I'm not sure what you mean by that.

I mean:

Wyrd Transcendence: The Fae accumulates enough Titles to evolve into something more than even an Old God. The Fae aren’t sure of their ultimate fate but their instincts drive them to this “higher” state. By default, this happens at six Titles. You can set higher numbers to prolong game play.

Amusing fact: at the bottom of the pages of Equinox Road, at then end of the book, it says you are back in the second chapter (Twisted Tales, the one about cross-splat games).






Damn it. Now I want to play a Changeling: the Lost game.

[ToySoldierCPlus]

Have you read the Game of Immortals (Appendix to Equinox Road, the True Fae game thing)? It's a competitive storytelling contest, having extra manpower (changelings) doesn't help win more titles.
Also, the wyrd oracle roll makes it hard to get glorious legends against (and thus have a chance to eat) Fae with few titles, while many-title Fae are easy prey if you can out-story them, so it makes a lot more sense to stay in Arcadia at this time.
Changelings have no titles (and the Fae has no Feud Promises regarding their names, if those are valid), so dwindling would occur regardless.

Okay, so we're talking about different rules here. I'm talking about the rules in the main section of the book, while you're talking about the rules in an appendix meant for a completely different game type. There's the problem we're having.

If you had read my posts before, you would have seen that I was saying an Actor with 2 Props, not just props themselves.

You've also been singing the praises of those props, and paying no heed to the very killable actor. Seriously, cold iron will ignore any defenses it has, even those from prop armor, and deal aggravated damage, at which point the actor gets dead and the changelings can claim the props to destroy. One title severed, two more on the chopping block.

[QUOTE=Scottzar;15024309]Having a prop in the real world is a safety measure. So is having an actor: it's just a much shorter term safety measure (it's probably safer, though). The other True Fae can kill you in the real world, but that's not the same as eating a title.

I don't think anyone here is saying that going to Earth as a True Fae is a good idea. In my previous posts I specifically said that a Fae would only go to Earth to claim an opponents prop, so I guess you're just restating our position?

(Also, I'm pretty sure you/we're right, but which page is Props being subsumed if separated from the main body on?)

Alright, maybe not subsumed as such, but held captive to be certain. And then destroyed or bargained for later.

The Fae don't get anything from this conflict with changelings. They just don't have any feud-promises on the changelings to eat whatever essence they may have. Essentially, while knowing the story of a title in it's current form lets you have a chance, the titles don't have forms when they aren't being contested by another true Fae. Changelings have no meaningful conflict with True Fae in Arcadia. True Fae don't leave Arcadia except to attack other True Fae. Therefore, changelings cannot meaningfully harm True Fae (they can help other True Fae to do it in specific circumstances, though).

Equinox Road, pg 88 says that a Gentry can stave of the Dwindling by riding out of Arcadia on the Hunt (that is, the Wild Hunt, the hunt for more humans to take captive). This is meaningful conflict for them, because they are putting themselves at risk. It may be minimal risk, and it won't fatten them with more titles, but it is still meaningful risk. Outside of Arcadia, a True Fae is not "dicelessly godlike". It is constrained and limited in its power, just as it is when it takes any form.

My Prop Bow always hits, like the dagger. How do you measure the capacity to hit? Why, in Nwod, you roll an attack! So when I roll an attack for hitting and damage, I apply the special bonus's of the Prop.

That's questionable. The rules simply aren't reliable for that kind of thing, which means it's up to some degree of interpretation. I don't find, "Always hits, therefore automatically deals 5+titles damage to target," to be an acceptable reading of the way props work. I stand by my previous explanation of how I read the description, and I also call the fact that a prop's powers are narrow in focus as an additional point of evidence.

I mean:

Oh. Uh... Um. I... Yeah, I got nothing. Reincarnation as a human for lulz?

Yes, the point of taking forms is to avoid issues where both parties are similarly infinite and just ignore creativity on the basis of power.
When slaughtering changelings, none of these rules apply. Forms don't have to be taken, because there is no feud. Realms don't have to be hospitable, unless they made that pledge to you.

Yes they do. The Law of Hospitality states that a realm must be hospitable, it must be able to be survived. It can't be an inescapable death trap, and it doesn't matter if the Fae is taking that form to play with its changelings or entertain its Feud-mates. The Law applies. It's part of what allows the True Fae to exist and take on forms in the first place. It works the same with Actors, Props, and Wisps. They all have rules for how they can be manifested, and the True Fae must obey those rules when manifesting any form.

Also, I tend to use dicelessly godlike to consider the fact that True Fae will always out-stat even cyclic stat boosting systems, because they always get at least one. (Making them, for instance, one of the few ways to take actions opposing a mage who's set up 12^^16 dice penalties on actions against them.)

That... depends on how the mage is facing the Kindly One. Can the True Fae interact with other things without taking forms? Other than the fabric of Arcadia itself, I mean.

Amusing fact: at the bottom of the pages of Equinox Road, at then end of the book, it says you are back in the second chapter (Twisted Tales, the one about cross-splat games).

I want that to have been on purpose, because of what the writers said in the introduction about how the whole book could just be one big fabrication by the True Fae, because they are consummate liars.

Oh, and I'd appreciate it if you would stop responding to me inside the quote boxes, please. It makes it very difficult to respond coherently.

[SiuiS]

Ok, I'm intrigued. How did you make a changeling!mage?

Liberal use of goblin vows and an assuredly different understanding of what a Mage is than most players.

How about a changeling!mummy? He claims to hail from old Irem, and to have wandered through Duat only to discover that the realm of the dead was really Arcadia, and the Judges simply Fae Keepers tormenting a lost soul. Normally, such claims would be dismissed as fae trickery or simple madness brought on by a harsh Durance... but he does speak fluent Iremite, and some of the things he describes stir long-buried memories in the minds of the Arisen. Could he be a mortal who stumbled into an Arcadian facsimile of Duat during Irem's glory, only emerging thousands of years later? Between the curious Arisen who wish to learn all they can from him before they are called by to the Judges, the orthodox Arisen who wish to destroy this fae deceiver before he can confuse them with his bizarre jests, and the mysterious wasting disease (a parody of the time limits imposed by the Descent) that ravages his body while stubbornly ignoring contracts and goblin fruits, this man's Durance will prove to be just the beginning of his problems...

That would be neat! I son know diddly about mummy except for a game subtitled "the curse" it actually seems pretty dang awesome.

The True Fae are not relentless optimizers. They are bound by the rules of the story, even when it would go against them. Learn that story and exploit it and they become very difficult instead of unbeatable. Makes for a much better game than 'lolmageswineverything', in the end.

Yo.

I've found that people tend to say "screw the lore, I have mechanics!" until someone calls them out on it. It happens a disgustingly large amount of time with Exalted and DnD 3.5.

... Yes. Oh goodness. Thank you.

[Selrahc]

That would be neat! I son know diddly about mummy except for a game subtitled "the curse" it actually seems pretty dang awesome.

Mummy is basically Planescape:Torment. You play as an amnesiac immortal who is trying to fulifil his ultimate purpose.

[SiuiS]

Mummy is basically Planescape:Torment. You play as an amnesiac immortal who is trying to fulifil his ultimate purpose.

"I've got all this ultimate cosmic power, why can't I find my damn keys"?

[Morty]

According to the latest timeline, God-Machine Chronicles will be released in April, so soon. Let's hope it's not delayed.

[Turalisj]

They say April, expect July.

[DualShadow]

Sorry if this have already been asked before but 30 pages is starting to be quite a long browsing.

Can anyone or a bunch of people give me a good summary and selling points for each of the splats of NWoD?

Vampire, Mage, Werewolf, Changeling, Hunter, Geist and Promethean.

[Selrahc]

Sorry if this have already been asked before but 30 pages is starting to be quite a long browsing.

Can anyone or a bunch of people give me a good summary and selling points for each of the splats of NWoD?

Vampire, Mage, Werewolf, Changeling, Hunter, Geist and Promethean.

Mage-

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The world as you knew it was a lie. Now you're in on the real deal. You're powerful, switched on and ready for anything. And there's a whole new world to discover... because if everything you ever knew was wrong that just means there is a whole lot new to learn.

But the forces that kept you locked in the lie for so long are still around. Deadly cthonic abominations and their sadistic mortal followers keep you from unleashing your full potential and try and lock down power to just themselves. Many of your new "Brothers" are scarcely better. And the new world may be exciting, but it's also very, very dangerous.

Really, it might be better if you just had all the power...

Werewolf

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A creature of two worlds, but you always know your place. It's by the side of your pack. In the good chunk of dirt you've carved out. Fighting the good fight. The world is hell, and you're going to have to go into the worst spots of it. But when you do.. you can make your patch of it just a little bit better. Restore order. Improve some lives.

And if anybody wants to stop you? Let em come. Let em all come...

Vampire

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Back from the dead, and lord it feels so good! You're head and shoulders over these mortal rubes. They'll never know the feel of power as it courses from their necks into your veins. And look at them as they scamper to obey your commands! Pathetic. The only trouble is those accursed other vampires. Trying to trap you, trick you and steal what should be yours. Well maybe you'll have to wait your turn.. work your way up. But one day... one day soon this city will tremble when it hears your name.

But then there is... the other. The thing that doesn't plan. Isn't careful. It pushes you to do things beyond what you ever thought possible, but it is slowly dawning on you that perhaps this beast isn't entirely under your control. The rush is there.. but everything else is starting to fade around the edges.

Promethean

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What is a person? You've spent days hiding under bridges and outside apartment stores, watching as the normal people live their lives. You've gotten very good at hiding now. You see them laughing and joking. Crying and raging. Casual.. anxious and a thousand other shades. And you've practiced each one carefully. Learned the script. But when you talk to them it never.. it never works. The way they stare.

But you can FEEL it. It's in you. You can be one of them. A fire in your belly is driving you and you won't rest until you've FORCED them to accept you. Until you UNDERSTAND what drives them and can replicate it perfectly. If they won't accept you... then perhaps more drastic measures will need to be taken.

Why won't they just treat you like a person? Don't they understand?

Changeling

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You got free. The worst is behind you. Hopefully. If you keep together then they'll never be able to take you back. But they're trying! Stay vigilant and work together with your fellow escapees to make sure that they can't bring you back to that living nightmare.

Of course it wasn't all bad. Some of the powers of that dread realm rubbed off on you. You were changed... forever. If you're willing to face the danger, and face the risk, there is a whole new world out there. A glamorous world of dreams and magic. And perhaps somewhere in there is the key that will keep you from waking up at night in a cold sweat of fear.

Hunter

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You are the best of the best, with the best equipment money can buy. Or maybe not. Maybe you're part of an ancient mystical organization, or a holy warrior. Maybe you're just some citizens who know too much, but aren't willing to lay down and take it. We're in a dark world here, and you have to hold the line. Stand tall and look out for those who can't look out for themselves.

Geist

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Death is clearly over-rated as a universal constant. One quick deal with a demon-ghost, and you were over that whole scene. Now you're in charge of making sure that it runs smoothly for everyone else. Which is a surprisingly time consuming job.

Of course the demon-ghost who shares your soul has his own ideas. He actually isn't all that bad for a dark monstrosity, but when two minds share the same body they don't always agree. You have the upper hand for now.. but the more you resist him the harder it becomes.

[Turalisj]

Don't forget Mummy!

[Selrahc]

Don't forget Mummy!

I only got the corebook for that about a week ago, so I don't think I can give it a fair treatment.

EDIT:
With the release of Mummy and a large part of its mechanics being based around long periods of inaction, I think the gamelines now lock into the 7 deadly sins quite nicely.

• Pride-Mage
• Greed-Geist
• Envy-Promethean
• Sloth-Mummy
• Lust-Changeling
• Gluttony-Vampire
• Wrath-Werewolf

[DualShadow]

Thank you Selrahc!

[MugaSofer]

For instance, a Fae dagger could kill anyone it struck or never fail to strike an enemy, but it never does both. Prop powers usually don’t use dice pools, but some powers might require them as a yardstick by which to measure the strength of an effect. In these cases, use the wielder’s dice pool and add an equipment bonus of 5 dice +1 for every Title the faerie possesses. If the Storyteller needs to measure successes, don’t roll these dice. Each die automatically generates 1 success. If the power would still fail, increase the number of dice and/or successes until the power scores one success. These dice and automatic successes only apply to the Prop’s special powers when it’s absolutely necessary to gauge a power’s effects this way. Whenever possible, the power should just work.

My Prop Bow always hits, like the dagger. How do you measure the capacity to hit? Why, in Nwod, you roll an attack! So when I roll an attack for hitting and damage, I apply the special bonus's of the Prop.

Um ... did you forget to read the first sentence of your quote? A Prop that automatically hits doesn't get a bonus to damage, and vice versa. That massive dice bonus only applies to the special effect of the Prop (for example, in an archery competition.)

Personally, I would just reroll until they hit, and ignore any penalties that interfere with aiming, but your ST could treat a failure as a single success or whatever; the point is that bonus does not apply to damage unless the Prop is supernaturally effective at damaging stuff.

[DualShadow]

People of the WoD thread, a mix of boredom and idle planning lead me to create this city. Any comments, nitpicks or ideas would be very welcomed but be warned I am no great writer nor homebrewer and neither do I have complete mastery over the whole NWoD setting.

[One Tin Soldier]

So someone mentioned Genius a little back here. I just played a Genius one-shot, and wanted to share a fun fact that I learned. It is perfectly possible for a group of 4 Geniuses, with 35 starting xp each, to kill a group of 3 Mages, each with mastery of 1 arcana and significant dots in another. This is mostly thanks to the hax that is Apokalypsi 3 combined with a katastrofic artillery piece.

Admittedly, the mages were not horrendously optimized, although we're hardly pushovers. Also, half of the Geniuses died and the other half had their wonders destroyed. Not by the mages, though. No, in the aftermath of the battle one of the group tried using an Exelixi healing device and dramatically failed, resulting in Havoc and a orphaned healing device attacking my character. Which then rolled well enough to kill her. Her wonders then underwent Havoc, destroying some of other people's wonders and killing one of the other Geniuses. Long story short, all the wonders banded together and joined forces with the one surviving Mage, and they are going to be the villains if we ever run a full game.

[Turalisj]

So someone mentioned Genius a little back here. I just played a Genius one-shot, and wanted to share a fun fact that I learned. It is perfectly possible for a group of 4 Geniuses, with 35 starting xp each, to kill a group of 3 Mages, each with mastery of 1 arcana and significant dots in another. This is mostly thanks to the hax that is Apokalypsi 3 combined with a katastrofic artillery piece.

Admittedly, the mages were not horrendously optimized, although we're hardly pushovers. Also, half of the Geniuses died and the other half had their wonders destroyed. Not by the mages, though. No, in the aftermath of the battle one of the group tried using an Exelixi healing device and dramatically failed, resulting in Havoc and a orphaned healing device attacking my character. Which then rolled well enough to kill her. Her wonders then underwent Havoc, destroying some of other people's wonders and killing one of the other Geniuses. Long story short, all the wonders banded together and joined forces with the one surviving Mage, and they are going to be the villains if we ever run a full game.

So.... your complaint with Geniuses is that you let them do what people claim Mages can do?

I-Ron-Y

[Lady Serpentine]

I... Don't think he was complaining?

[SiuiS]

Hurry up God Machine~!

*bounces*

[JMobius]

Hurry up God Machine~!

*bounces*

One of the authors said GMC might go live on DTRPG this weekend.

Now I'm going to be doing nothing but pressing F5 all day...

[SiuiS]

One of the authors said GMC might go live on DTRPG this weekend.

Now I'm going to be doing nothing but pressing F5 all day...

Blarglearglefargleargh! *BounceBounceBounce!*

Last I checked they were all "We forgot to schedule someone to do something an everything is delayed and nothing happens this week LOL" and I was like"D:" and profound despair and stuff! But this is good news!

Probably goin to comb through all my characters an see how they come out in the new system. I like the idea for some of it but others seem weird. Although I was able to contextualize it well. The response to 'why these changes?' is 'so someone doesn't enter a game of interpersonal drama and horror by Rollin up a 14 dice weapon pool and calling it a wash'.

I am hyper and unfocused. Sorry >_<"

[JMobius]

I think a good answer for "why these changes?" is "because the writers have nearly a decade of experience with the old system by now, and they've realized in that time a lot of things that can be done better, cooler, and more strongly thematic."

[Morty]

That's pretty much their stated reason, I think. Let's just hope that it really does appear today...

[One Tin Soldier]

So.... your complaint with Geniuses is that you let them do what people claim Mages can do?

I-Ron-Y

I... Don't think he was complaining?

I was most definitely not complaining. This was one of the most fun sessions I have ever played.

[Turalisj]

Oh, my apologies then.

I'm just so very used to people going "Genius, it is teh borkenz!11!11" and not trying it for themselves.

[SiuiS]

I think a good answer for "why these changes?" is "because the writers have nearly a decade of experience with the old system by now, and they've realized in that time a lot of things that can be done better, cooler, and more strongly thematic."

But that's not the reason. Half o the writing crew haven't been there that long and are still strong contenders. I think it's more critical thinking than duration.

Also, "because they know better now" misses the poit of the question, which is 'what do the changes achieve the old rules did not'. The old rules want you to suffer degeneration and expect a moral player I even out around 5, but make it look like that bad. The old rules are intended to roll 3 dice for just about everything but make it look like you're doing it wrong with less than six. The old rules didn't do what they were intended to, an the changes bring the game more in line with the intended drama and gameplay. How to express that we another matter.

Or do you not find it strange, when someone says "Okay, I'm ready to play a horror game with an explorative and social focus! I've got 13 dice and a custom made military grade sniper rifle and a fighting style to utilize it."?
Because I think that's silly.

[Morty]

Well, looks like the GMC didn't appear yesterday after all. Oh well. I do hope they hit the metaphorical shelves soon, though.