General WoD Discussion #2: Its time to Celebrate!

[MugaSofer]

I'm ... not sure I approve of that, honestly. I mean, sure, as an ST you can't go through a full character creation process for every mook anymore than you can give him a backstory and a life beyond this scene, but when you're fudging this sort of thing you should still be trying to approximate the same mechanics the heroes use. If you're clearly just pulling numbers out of your ass, it runs immersion; ultimately, the whole thing is in the hands of the Storyteller, and the players actions mean nothing. That's why we have rules in the first place! Sure, there are times when you have to ignore those rules for the sake of the story, but can you imagine trying to read a story where the entire setting was arbitrarily constructed to challenge the hero by the whims of some godlike being?*

*It would rapidly become the story of his interacting with this being directly, or maybe focus on his inner monolog and struggles, rather than - y'know - the story.

[Sith_Happens]

I'm pretty sure that quote isn't supposed to mean "NPCs don't need stats, just make everything up as you go along" so much as "give NPCs the stats you want them to have, don't worry about how much XP it adds up to."

[SiuiS]

I'm ... not sure I approve of that, honestly. I mean, sure, as an ST you can't go through a full character creation process for every mook anymore than you can give him a backstory and a life beyond this scene, but when you're fudging this sort of thing you should still be trying to approximate the same mechanics the heroes use. If you're clearly just pulling numbers out of your ass, it runs immersion; ultimately, the whole thing is in the hands of the Storyteller, and the players actions mean nothing. That's why we have rules in the first place! Sure, there are times when you have to ignore those rules for the sake of the story, but can you imagine trying to read a story where the entire setting was arbitrarily constructed to challenge the hero by the whims of some godlike being?*

*It would rapidly become the story of his interacting with this being directly, or maybe focus on his inner monolog and struggles, rather than - y'know - the story.

No, friend, it is still "Roll 4/6/8/10 dice based on how good they are, at the few important skills they have". You can still do a full build if you want to, but its' not necessary. The game runs smoothly if you keep in mind comeptencey; Don't do their full attribute/skill/specialty/ability/equipment stuff. Just mentally check either meh, okay, competent, professional, or wowzers next to each of the four or five important skills they have.

[Lady Serpentine]

Wording for a literal Pledge to become sisters between a Summer with fire themes and a Winter Snowskin; thoughts?

Spoiler

Show

I am ice.

And I am flame.

Yet Summer's blood flows in my veins, and I do not melt, for though I am born of Winter, it is not meant to harm. Nor is it destroyed, for it is part of me, and there is no need for it to change.

And though Winter's blood is in me, I am still burning, not reduced to ash, and it remains frozen.

For by the blending of our blood, we are forever within each other, true sisters in all things, though we share no parents, closer even than lovers or kin; none shall come between us, mortal or else, no matter how we love them.

This we swear, by our names, our Seemings, and our Courts, until we die; and should either forswear this, let these things be stripped from them.

[Sith_Happens]

Wording for a literal Pledge to become sisters between a Summer with fire themes and a Winter Snowskin; thoughts?

Spoiler

Show

I am ice.

And I am flame.

Yet Summer's blood flows in my veins, and I do not melt, for though I am born of Winter, it is not meant to harm. Nor is it destroyed, for it is part of me, and there is no need for it to change.

And though Winter's blood is in me, I am still burning, not reduced to ash, and it remains frozen.

For by the blending of our blood, we are forever within each other, true sisters in all things, though we share no parents, closer even than lovers or kin; none shall come between us, mortal or else, no matter how we love them.

This we swear, by our names, our Seemings, and our Courts, until we die; and should either forswear this, let these things be stripped from them.

I assume that normal text = Winter, bolded = Summer, underlined = both?

What's the Pledge supposed to actually do?

[Lady Serpentine]

I assume that normal text = Winter, bolded = Summer, underlined = both?

What's the Pledge supposed to actually do?

Yep.

The Pledge, in combination with Contract of Elements 3 (Blood), and a ceremony, will make them, in the eyes of the Wyrd, blood relatives.

[Water_Bear]

The Pledge, in combination with Contract of Elements 3 (Blood), and a ceremony, will make them, in the eyes of the Wyrd, blood relatives.

So is this for some kind of mechanical benefit like Talecrafting involving their new relationship or using always counting as "intimate" on the mystical connection table, or is it primarily a magical expression of love?

If it's the first, having a precise wording laid out makes sense so that you can know what the limits are and how the terms can be pushed or exploited by others to mess with them. But if it's the second, the relationship itself is more important than the Pledge and the wording is relatively (hah!) immaterial; after all, it's mainly a confirmation of what they already feel.

[Lady Serpentine]

...Talecrafting being...?

Probably the former, though. They wish to be, for all intents and purposes, including contracts, siblings.

[Mr.Bookworm]

...Talecrafting being...?

Probably the former, though. They wish to be, for all intents and purposes, including contracts, siblings.

The quality of the Changeling supplements is pretty excellent, as a general rule, but some of the writers decided for some bizarre reason that Changelings needed more subsystem-type powers they could use at chargen for no extra cost. Talecrafting (from Swords at Dawn) is one of them, basically letting Changelings adjust the Wyrd to make stories play out in real life.

[Water_Bear]

...Talecrafting being...?

A fairly cool little subsystem from Swords at Dawn; essentially a Changeling can attempt to magically force some aspect of reality to follow an archetypal narrative pattern. Of course, characters who do that sort of thing in stories don't usually turn out so well... there's always a risk of getting a faceful of dramatic irony.

It's pretty cool, and in the hands of a munchkin who's read some Joseph Campbell very powerful, so forcing a Pattern by "creating" a sibling is more or less the first thing that occured to me in terms of game mechanics.

Probably the former, though. They wish to be, for all intents and purposes, including contracts, siblings.

Well you might be disappointed; I don't have time to check through all my books just now, but I think that the Mystical Connections Table is just about the best thing you're going to get mechanically, assuming you don't count as having an intimate relationship already. Maybe you could use it get that God Machine "True Friend" Merit if the other partner is an NPC? IDK.

Don't get me wrong, it's super cool from an RP perspective and still worth going through with just for that reason, it's just not the sort of thing you should expect a lot of magical goodies from.

[Lady Serpentine]

Well you might be disappointed; I don't have time to check through all my books just now, but I think that the Mystical Connections Table is just about the best thing you're going to get mechanically, assuming you don't count as having an intimate relationship already. Maybe you could use it get that God Machine "True Friend" Merit if the other partner is an NPC? IDK.

Don't get me wrong, it's super cool from an RP perspective and still worth going through with just for that reason, it's just not the sort of thing you should expect a lot of magical goodies from.

Nope, she's a PC. So not at all sure how that would work.

And basically, this lets us do some nasty things with contract catches for Reflection when combined with coating me in reflective surfaces through Elements, besides being highly fitting, so that's basically all we want out of it.

(There's also the potential for eventually exploiting it by making us count as one person for purposes of contracts, too.)

[MugaSofer]

Wait, Talecrafting is a universal Changeling ability?

[hiryuu]

Wait, Talecrafting is a universal Changeling ability?

Yes.

But you can only do it once a session and it's horribly addictive. I eased up on the restrictions and added a bit more Glamour to the cost and it's been great.

[Leliel]

Hey guys!

We have a new Demon spoiler, our first Incarnation write-up!

Introducing: The Messengers, Manipulators and Seekers of Truth!

From the looks of it, Descent isn't an entirely negative thing-it's also learning how to appreciate humanity, warts and all.

Better, we get to play the Demonic Chessmaster right out of the gate. Nobody said the Message has to be true...

EDIT: Huh. I copied the address and everything.

No matter, link works now.

[The Glyphstone]

Hey guys!

We have a new Demon spoiler, our first Incarnation write-up!

Introducing: The Messengers, Manipulators and Seekers of Truth!

From the looks of it, Descent isn't an entirely negative thing-it's also learning how to appreciate humanity, warts and all.

Better, we get to play the Demonic Chessmaster right out of the gate. Nobody said the Message has to be true...

Your link redirects back to this thread...

[Leliel]

Fixed now.

[Aron Times]

I recently downloaded the rules updates for nWoD and VtR, and I find the static XP costs to be an elegant solution to the character creation optimization minigame in the previous edition. Since XP costs no longer scale, you are no longer punished for spreading out your dots to create a well-balanced character. This means that starting with Dominate 2 and Animalism 1 instead of dumping all your points into Dominate 3 is no longer suboptimal.

Speaking from a Ventrue perspective, of course.

As for the gun merits, they're much more balanced (nerfed) compared to the previous edition. No longer can a starting mortal character so easily take out supernaturals through sheer lethal damage (bashing against Kindred). I also like how martial arts lets you deal automatic damage, and even lets you deal lethal damage at high levels. Pretty useful against non-vampires now.

Oh, and the disciplines are much stronger. I have no complaints save for Animalism 2 which clashes with the vampires' theme of stasis. Zombie dogs that break the Masquerade and cost more in upkeep than a ghoul dog? Do not want.

Protean 3 is interesting. I'm thinking of playing an animal lover Gangrel who doesn't ghoul his pets but puts them down when they're too sick or frail or old by exsanguinating them and letting them "live on" within him. Maybe the memory of the dead dog plus the ability to shapeshift into it can even be used as an touchstone of sorts, similar to how an empty grave can be a touchstone.

Anyway, that's all for now.

[Lady Serpentine]

Hmmm. I don't have VtR specifically, but all the others still have scaling costs... Are you talking about some kind of GMC thing with static ones?

[Aron Times]

I'm talking about the post-God Machine rules, yes. Basically, it's the Second Edition of the New World of Darkness. Kind of like the transition from D&D 3.0 to 3.5.

[Lady Serpentine]

Alright, yeah, fair enough. Makes sense. Scaling costs were strange sometimes, certainly; in Changeling, for instance, it's so much cheaper to just buy dots in the Token merit than it is Contracts that if you're good at coming up with useful abilities, you'd basically never want to buy any new Contracts (except maybe new dots in related Contract of Elements [X] because those are the same cost).

Now, playing a magical gadgeteer can be fun, but... Somehow I don't think those were meant to be so much better than the core powers.

Though I would ask why Mortals needed a nerf, given that, in my experience, they're fairly wimpy compared to any of the supernaturals I've played, assuming a similar level of optimization?

[SiuiS]

Hmmm. I don't have VtR specifically, but all the others still have scaling costs... Are you talking about some kind of GMC thing with static ones?

This is the way things are now forever.

Alright, yeah, fair enough. Makes sense. Scaling costs were strange sometimes, certainly; in Changeling, for instance, it's so much cheaper to just buy dots in the Token merit than it is Contracts that if you're good at coming up with useful abilities, you'd basically never want to buy any new Contracts (except maybe new dots in related Contract of Elements [X] because those are the same cost).

Now, playing a magical gadgeteer can be fun, but... Somehow I don't think those were meant to be so much better than the core powers.

Though I would ask why Mortals needed a nerf, given that, in my experience, they're fairly wimpy compared to any of the supernaturals I've played, assuming a similar level of optimization?

What nerf to Mortals?

[Lady Serpentine]

This one:

As for the gun merits, they're much more balanced (nerfed) compared to the previous edition. No longer can a starting mortal character so easily take out supernaturals through sheer lethal damage (bashing against Kindred). I also like how martial arts lets you deal automatic damage, and even lets you deal lethal damage at high levels. Pretty useful against non-vampires now.

Now, I don't know if it actually was a nerf, but seeing as (partly through min-maxing, admittedly) I have a starting Changeling who can get a 22+ Aggravated damage a swing, before the use of any contracts in that scene, and similar things are, in theory, quite possible with other books... I somehow fail to see the need for Mortals to be less powerful.

[Morty]

Hey guys!

We have a new Demon spoiler, our first Incarnation write-up!

Introducing: The Messengers, Manipulators and Seekers of Truth!

From the looks of it, Descent isn't an entirely negative thing-it's also learning how to appreciate humanity, warts and all.

Better, we get to play the Demonic Chessmaster right out of the gate. Nobody said the Message has to be true...

EDIT: Huh. I copied the address and everything.

No matter, link works now.

It's interesting that the Stereotypes section includes the Prometheans. I wonder if there's a reason for it. Or maybe the stereotypes will include all splats, but the other minor ones haven't made it into the draft yet.

[MugaSofer]

Yeah, the cost of every dot is roughly equal to the cost of the third dot, under the old system - plus or minus some rounding, because the new XP system demands all prices be multiples of five, effectively. (5 Beats - about equal to a pre-GMC XP - equal one new XP.)

Though I would ask why Mortals needed a nerf, given that, in my experience, they're fairly wimpy compared to any of the supernaturals I've played, assuming a similar level of optimization?

That seemed to refer to Fighting Styles, which I'm given to understand were extremely easy to break. It's less a "nerf" as a patch for a known issue.

It's interesting that the Stereotypes section includes the Prometheans. I wonder if there's a reason for it. Or maybe the stereotypes will include all splats, but the other minor ones haven't made it into the draft yet.

According to the comments, each Incarnation has Stereotypes for the Big Three plus one group connected to them in some way - I think Psychopomps have Geists, for example.

EDIT:

A mortal can't use several gun styles to snipe for atrocious damage.

Now, the gun comes pre-loaded with atrocious damage!

[SiuiS]

This one:


Now, I don't know if it actually was a nerf, but seeing as (partly through min-maxing, admittedly) I have a starting Changeling who can get a 22+ Aggravated damage a swing, before the use of any contracts in that scene, and similar things are, in theory, quite possible with other books... I somehow fail to see the need for Mortals to be less powerful.

It's a fighting style fix, and affects everyone equally. A mortal can't use several gun styles to snipe for atrocious damage. Now they need a bunch of silly specialties instead

[Longes]

A mortal can't use several gun styles to snipe for atrocious damage.

A Geist with Industrial Caul can make seven shots each turn

[SiuiS]

A Geist with Industrial Caul can make seven shots each turn

Good godempress why?

[Longes]

Good godempress why?

With Industrial Caul 5 you can merge with 5 things. Let's say, that we picked 5 sniper rifles. We also pick two Desert Eagles - one in each hand. With IC 5 a Sin-Eater can manifest everything he merged with, so you can have fun being ten-handed Kali

[Aron Times]

Other changes that I like:

1. Dominate is much more powerful, but now costs vitae for some powers:

http://whitewolfblogs.com/blog/2012/...nto-animalism/

2. The physical disciplines now have a passive effect and several active effects. All of them have an always-on, passive effect: Vigor is added to Strength permanently, Resilience to Stamina, and Celerity to Defense. By spending 1 vitae, you can use one of their active effects. For Resilience, you reduce incoming damage by your number of Resilience dots plus one if the damage isn't fire or sunlight, or Resilience dots if it's fire. Currently, it can't protect you from sunlight other than giving you extra HP through its passive Stamina buff. For Vigor, you get to add your dots as automatic damage on a hit, similar to Potence in the oWoD. Celerity lets you interrupt other characters' turns, and does not give extra actions.

3. Striking Looks costs half the dots it used to, and the rules doesn't say that you can only take it at character creation. Plastic surgery, I guess? Or perhaps your character just took off her glasses and let her hair down? I don't know...

4. Weapons have been buffed. They now add their damage rating as automatic damage on a hit. For example, if you have a heavy revolver (+2L), Dexterity 2, and Firearms 2, you would roll four dice to hit, and you add your weapon damage to your successes to determine your total damage. For example, if you roll 1 success, you deal 3 damage.

[Lady Serpentine]

Hm. Weaponry is nice. On the other hand, my ST is going to strangle me for making something that has a dice pool of 6 Aggravated and the potential to go up.

Passive abilities are interesting. I take it they didn't used to have any? If so, I may have to bring up that particular design decision when writing up some homebrewed Contracts, if so.

Striking Looks is probably a change meant to make it not a choice between taking that to reflect how you look or taking other things that they should have at creation. And of course, Changeling pledges might have something to do with it too - it makes sense that faerie magic could make you more beautiful (or intimidating, or whatever).

Though, as you said, it's also nice that it now allows for a character to alter their appearance, whether through surgery or simply, for instance, becoming more confident in themselves and thus holding themself differently, maybe taking more care with their appearance, etc., all things that could come out over the course of a game.