General WoD Discussion #2: Its time to Celebrate!

[Aron Times]

I've learned that in Blood and Smoke, frenzied vampires add their Blood Potency to all physical actions, and there is also a fighting style merit called Riding the Wave, which presumably improves Riding the Wave. Elders just got a lot scarier.

[Longes]

I've learned that in Blood and Smoke, frenzied vampires add their Blood Potency to all physical actions, and there is also a fighting style merit called Riding the Wave, which presumably improves Riding the Wave. Elders just got a lot scarier.

Ugh. WoD goes high powered. AGAIN. If I remember correctly, one of the reasons to lower the power level was to allow player a chance to actually stand against the elders. Guess we don't need that any more.

[Aron Times]

In general, Blood Potency is more useful in Blood and Smoke, being used in more rolls and cheaper to increase with XP, at least when you go higher than BP 3. Also, the amount of blood you can spend per turn is now equal to your BP up to BP 5. At BP 6 and above, your vitae pool and vitae per turn increase dramatically.

[Morty]

I don't think Elders being somewhat scarier during a frenzy - which has its own disadvantages, such as being a ravening monster - equal their overwhelming power level from Masquerade.

[Leliel]

In other news, the preview for the new and improved Ordo Dracul went up.

On a phone, so I can't link, but their new philosophical position can be summed up as "someday, I will walk among angels. And on that day, I will kick each and every one of them in the groin, the smug bastards."

EDIT: "Oi! You lot! Yes, you up there, you smarmy snobs! Look at the people you've cursed with eternal bloodthist!"

[Aron Times]

I expect them to fix the Coils of the Dragon so that it isn't a huge XP sink anymore. Since the new XP costs seem to be equal to the old XP cost for the third dot divided by five...

Coils of the Dragon 3 = 3 * 7 = 21, 21/5 = 4

So that's 4 XP under the new system, or the equivalent of 20 XP under the old system. That's for each dot, so it's initially more expensive, but then gets more efficient as you get more and more dots.

{table]Coils of the Dragon Dots|1|2|3|4|5|6|7|8|9
nWoD 1 XP Cost|7|14|21|28|35|42|49|56|63
nWoD 2 Beat Cost|20|20|20|20|20|20|20|20|20
Cumulative XP Cost|7|21|42|70|105|147|196|252|315
Cumulative Beat Cost|20|40|60|80|100|120|140|160|180
Cumulative Discount|-13|-19|-18|-10|5|27|56|88|125[/table]

Hm... Apparently, you get a discount at five tiers of Coils. Under the old XP system, you'd need 105 XP to get from 0 Coils to 5 Coils, and under the new Beat/Experience system, you'd need the equivalent of 100 XP, for a discount of 5 Beats/1 Experience.

Of course, you can't really convert directly from XP to Experience since players now have more control over their XP gain thanks to several changes such as the condition system and the aspiration system, which allow players to earn extra Beats.

At this point, I realize that I just wasted several minutes creating that table and doing the calculations manually when I could've just used Excel to do the heavy lifting, but it doesn't really matter anyway since you can't directly convert from one system to another.

*Rolls Detachment for wasting time accomplishing nothing.*
*Fails and loses a point of Humanity.*

[DualShadow]

I know that Detroit Rock City from Mr.Shopping is pretty much the go-to AP for Werewolf: The Forsaken. Would there be by any chance a great AP for Vampire: The Requiem somewhere as well? Changeling? I know Dave B. is pretty much the go-to for a Mage: The Awakening.

Any suggestion for even those other franchise I didn't mention but you feel should be read?

[Grytorm]

For Vampire I like this one Dead of Night. I'm not certain if it is still updating but the writing of it seemed good when I read it. Lurker out.

[MugaSofer]

Subjective morality is a childish fantasy

There are two flavours of "subjective morality".

One is the lets-all-get-along flavour, which is objectively wrong and stupid in some situations but fairly effective at keeping the peace (since, naturally, disrespecting other people's beliefs is the one sin you're allowed to punish, while hypocrisy and internal contradiction are the one thing you're allowed to criticise.)

The other is a literary trope, gray-and-gray morality, and it's subvariant black-and-gray (contrasting with black-and-white.) This focuses on moral dilemmas, people who are "good" in some areas and "bad" in others, and those aspects of morality where there are mutually contradictory positions that are, if not correct, at least defensible.

The latter is what the nWoD tends to use, along with most other "gritty" fiction. It allows the Grimdarkness and lack of easy answers granted by WH40K-esque black-and-black morality, without making you hate every damn character. It is definitely not a "childish fantasy" - more like a nightmarishly cynical view of the real world.

[JAnderson789]

The power fantasy has always been front and center, the question is really how we approach power.

Yes, but when viewed as a straight power fantasy vampires are generally villains. Its only when they feel compassion for humans that the vampire is something other than an exceptionally torturous anorexia metaphor (i.e. you want to be pretty/powerful, so you starve yourself/eat people). No offense to anorexics.

But more importantly, as a straight-up power fantasy vampires are boring. When was the last time you read a book or watched a movie about vampires where their single defining trait was how awesome it was to be a vampire and how people were literally lining up to become vampires? Twilight doesn't count.

Ugh. WoD goes high powered. AGAIN. If I remember correctly, one of the reasons to lower the power level was to allow player a chance to actually stand against the elders. Guess we don't need that any more.

I've noticed that there's been a general trend after Onyx Path took over (and even some time before then) where both fans and writers have been steadily backlashing against the founding principles of nWoD in favor of making it more like cWoD (along with some parts of Call of Cthulhu and FATE bolted on). The new overcomplicated combat system, the new nature/demeanor system, the new world-spanning monolithic secret societies, the absurd power creep (why are geists combat monkeys if they're supposed to be exorcists? why do mummies have phenomenal cosmic power that is largely useless in day-to-day life?), etc.

The condition system strikes me as a lot of words for something very simple. You can just say that characters receive an experience point whenever they receive an exceptional success/dramatic failure/overcome a negative circumstance/hand out XP like candy whenever to make the players not feel neglected. It's a lot simpler than saying "this [object] has the resonance condition with regard to [type] spirits " when "fire spirits draw power from anywhere fire is found" is more intuitive and doesn't confuse the object with the subject. Complexity does not make a system objectively better and it certainly doesn't mean it was less suited as a universal system before the new rules were bolted on or that the old system was in any way inferior or badly designed. The many editions and retro-clones of D&D (and the success of the retro-clone movement in general) are a testament to the fact that new editions aren't inherently superior.

Predictions for new future editions: (please do/don't happen)

• A fifth edition "Antediluvian/Wyrm/etc Chronicle" for cWoD
• A 20th Anniversary of nWoD that ditches the GMC
• A third (fourth if you count MC's WoD) re-imagining of the IP in general

[JAnderson789]

The latter is what the nWoD tends to use, along with most other "gritty" fiction. It allows the Grimdarkness and lack of easy answers granted by WH40K-esque black-and-black morality, without making you hate every damn character. It is definitely not a "childish fantasy" - more like a nightmarishly cynical view of the real world.

I was referring to the first definition. Oh, I can understand that completely. It's like how Viktor in Underworld spared Selene after killing her family because she reminded him of his daughter... who he completely and utterly pointlessly murdered because she was in mixed-raced marriage.

Oh, wait... no. It still falls flat for me. I simply cannot empathize with anyone who considers it okay to kill people who don't deserve it outside of self-defense, unless he really regrets it (and is penitent at some point) or has some MAJOR extenuating circumstances. Take, for example, the tv show Continuum: despite being mass murderers, Liberate has the redeeming quality that they are, despite their actions, in the right. Even so, I still want to see them executed after they (hopefully) win.

[Leliel]

Yes, but when viewed as a straight power fantasy vampires are generally villains. Its only when they feel compassion for humans that the vampire is something other than an exceptionally torturous anorexia metaphor (i.e. you want to be pretty/powerful, so you starve yourself/eat people). No offense to anorexics.

But more importantly, as a straight-up power fantasy vampires are boring. When was the last time you read a book or watched a movie about vampires where their single defining trait was how awesome it was to be a vampire and how people were literally lining up to become vampires? Twilight doesn't count.

Quite. That's why, oh I don't know, an entire freaking covenant sprung up around the idea of curtailing the banes of the Curse (while flipping off anything that says they can't do that). The Ordo Dracul may be amoral as all hell, but they recognize what they are and want to change it.

And why the people who embrace the power fantasy without reservations, Belial's Brood, are the bad guys.

I've noticed that there's been a general trend after Onyx Path took over (and even some time before then) where both fans and writers have been steadily backlashing against the founding principles of nWoD in favor of making it more like cWoD (along with some parts of Call of Cthulhu and FATE bolted on). The new overcomplicated combat system, the new nature/demeanor system, the new world-spanning monolithic secret societies, the absurd power creep (why are geists combat monkeys if they're supposed to be exorcists? why do mummies have phenomenal cosmic power that is largely useless in day-to-day life?), etc.

And all the fans not you are grateful. We actually like feeling like we have some degree of power from square one, thank you. And world-spanning, disjointed conspiracies were always a thing, and always a fairly major thing. In fact, they're actually becoming more like cultures than conspiracies now, if the view of the Covenants is any indication.

The condition system strikes me as a lot of words for something very simple. You can just say that characters receive an experience point whenever they receive an exceptional success/dramatic failure/overcome a negative circumstance/hand out XP like candy whenever to make the players not feel neglected. It's a lot simpler than saying "this [object] has the resonance condition with regard to [type] spirits " when "fire spirits draw power from anywhere fire is found" is more intuitive and doesn't confuse the object with the subject. Complexity does not make a system objectively better and it certainly doesn't mean it was less suited as a universal system before the new rules were bolted on or that the old system was in any way inferior or badly designed. The many editions and retro-clones of D&D (and the success of the retro-clone movement in general) are a testament to the fact that new editions aren't inherently superior.

Nor are they testaments to the idea that old ones are, just that nostalgia is a powerful force. Ephemeral beings are meant to be fairly singular antagonists to mortals, something you have to out-think as well as out-fight. If you're using them in vast enough numbers that this bookeeping becomes a problem, you're doing it wrong.

Predictions for new future editions: (please do/don't happen)

• A fifth edition "Antediluvian/Wyrm/etc Chronicle" for cWoD
• A 20th Anniversary of nWoD that ditches the GMC
• A third (fourth if you count MC's WoD) re-imagining of the IP in general

[*] The nWoD chugs along quite happily, thank you, despite you claiming that we should not be enjoying the GMC.

[Mewtarthio]

Its only when they feel compassion for humans that the vampire is something other than an exceptionally torturous anorexia metaphor (i.e. you want to be pretty/powerful, so you starve yourself/eat people). No offense to anorexics.

Wait, what?

No, seriously, what?

(why are geists combat monkeys if they're supposed to be exorcists? why do mummies have phenomenal cosmic power that is largely useless in day-to-day life?), etc.

I can't speak to the Geist issue, but phenomenal cosmic power is a pretty important part of the Arisen story. The powers aren't supposed to be useful in day-to-day life because Mummies have no "day-to-day life." They are gods that have long since abandoned mortality. When they walk the earth, they do so with a purpose. If they have no purpose, if all they're doing is just living their "day-to-day life," then they will quickly wither away and return to Duat. Even when they're awakened by the Sothic cycle, they have a very limited amount of time on Earth, and they need to make every moment count.

[Leliel]

I can't speak to the Geist issue, but phenomenal cosmic power is a pretty important part of the Arisen story. The powers aren't supposed to be useful in day-to-day life because Mummies have no "day-to-day life." They are gods that have long since abandoned mortality. When they walk the earth, they do so with a purpose. If they have no purpose, if all they're doing is just living their "day-to-day life," then they will quickly wither away and return to Duat. Even when they're awakened by the Sothic cycle, they have a very limited amount of time on Earth, and they need to make every moment count.

Well, technically, gaining a day-to-day life is the purpose of Apotheosis, but that's the whole point-you exchange raw power for freedom and true immortality, at your own leisure.

And, frankly, gaining Phenomenal Cosmic Power is the point of Mage...gaining Power and Responsibility is the point of Werewolf and to a lesser extent Geist...their Strange Power is a good way to show how different Changelings and Prometheans are from humans....Hunter is all about trying to balance the Power Disparity between monsters and even the magic of endowments...

...What was so bad about being powerful again?

[Lady Serpentine]

As a note, until they get their Wyrd up rather high, Changelings aren't even that powerful, looking at their abilities proper.

Now, to be fair, given it only takes a few dots in the Token Merit - or at least, not precisely a few, but Merits are cheap - and a little creativity to get things like 16 Agg a swing at almost anything, I'd certainly not call them low-powered, but...

[JAnderson789]

[*] The nWoD chugs along quite happily, thank you, despite you claiming that we should not be enjoying the GMC.

Le sigh.

You really missed the point. I'm not saying you shouldn't be enjoying it. I'm saying I don't like the system because I feel the changes are unnecessary (for a more eloquent summary of my position, read this), but people keep talking at me how awesome the new system is and how stupid the old system is.

I would thank you not to misrepresent my position or say that I'm crazy for complaining about needlessly complex rules or power disparities when the same thing goes on in the Exalted forums all the time.

EDIT: My problem with geists is that they have all of these combat powers, but don't really have a reason to have them, since their job is mainly being exorcists. The powers are also measurably superior to comparable powers in other splats.

The spirit rules changes are mostly from an intuitive perspective. It saves time by saying "X spirit gains power from anywhere X is found" rather than going through objects and places each scene one by one and specifying which resonates with what.

Sure, I don't like GMC, but I do recognize that nWoD 1.0 has numerous stupid design choices. It would makes things so much simpler if everyone drew from the same pool of powers, rather than giving everyone their own version of "supernatural attribute" with wildly different effects.

[Lady Serpentine]

The thing with Geists is that that's the easiest way to get rid of ghosts, especially ones with durable, hidden, or public anchors. My main problem with Geists is that the power level is wildly swingy within their own splat, and they get two to three powers for each dot, granting them near-Mage levels of flexibility.

As for drawing from the same pool... Simpler, yes. 'Better' is debatable. There's nothing too bad about Glamour or Plasm, for instance. They have reasonable mechanics and you only need to worry about one at a time as a player.

[Water_Bear]

Yes, but when viewed as a straight power fantasy vampires are generally villains. Its only when they feel compassion for humans that the vampire is something other than an exceptionally torturous anorexia metaphor (i.e. you want to be pretty/powerful, so you starve yourself/eat people). No offense to anorexics.

But more importantly, as a straight-up power fantasy vampires are boring. When was the last time you read a book or watched a movie about vampires where their single defining trait was how awesome it was to be a vampire and how people were literally lining up to become vampires? Twilight doesn't count.

I'd disagree on both points, and my evidence for both is the same source; Anne Rice's novels.

If you look at Interview with the Vampire it's clear that Louis is exactly the kind of vampire you say is used most often as a heroic figure (compassion for humans, struggle against his condition, etc) while Lestat is exactly the kind of vampire you say is best used as a villain (remorseless, hugely predatory, etc). But while that one book focuses on Louis, almost everything else she wrote (and all of the really popular stuff which made her fortune) is focused on a celebration of Lestat. His predatory confidence and sexualized power are the main draw of the series, and you can see how deeply her work has impacted vampire literature all the way up to Twilight. I'm not sure Rice would be a household name if Louis was still the viewpoint character.

Is it a coincidence that while vampires have steadily lost weaknesses over time they have continued to gain new powers? That, Twilight aside, Vampires have dominated paranormal romance for decades with works like True Blood and even Buffy pioneering the cliches Meyers is blasted for now? The vampire power fantasy is the core of our modern understanding of the monster.

[Lord Raziere]

Thats why I try to keep my vampires strictly unholy irredeemable parasitic monsters, with perhaps maybe one or two of them trying to find alternate ways to get blood, just to keep things a little realistic to my own sensibilities. and thats a strong maybe, and only for smart science types willing to work for it.

I'm not allowing that romanticism-creep into any my depictions. a parasite is a parasite, all the romanticization, power fantasy, predatory confidence and everything else? matters not at the end of the day, for at the end of the day a vampire is an evil parasite that deserves only extermination for what it does to others. at least until some Mage comes along and figures out how to make a killing off of mass-produced artificial blood. but even then The Kiss is more pleasurable to them than bumping uglies so, I don't see how that would stop them anyways. that and who knows? artificial blood might not count. supernatural stuff is metaphysically tricky like that. they might only be able to gain sustenance from the blood of prey.

[Lady Serpentine]

...for at the end of the day a vampire is an evil parasite that deserves only extermination for what it does to others.

So, in your opinion, a vampire who, say, harvests blood from willing (that is, not mind-controlled, not threatened) people who know what they're doing, never enough from any one person to be actively harmful to them, and also works nights at, for instance, a local charity that takes in people with nowhere else to go. doing completely above-board work helping them and the rest of the community, deserves to die?

I see.

What about the Autumn Court Changeling who takes emotions without truly removing them, then? It's equivalent, even to working beside the vampire, except that let's say in the Changeling's case, the people don't even know anything is being done, and thus can't consent. Do they die too?

[Mewtarthio]

So, in your opinion, a vampire who, say, harvests blood from willing (that is, not mind-controlled, not threatened) people who know what they're doing, never enough from any one person to be actively harmful to them, and also works nights at, for instance, a local charity that takes in people with nowhere else to go. doing completely above-board work helping them and the rest of the community, deserves to die?

I believe he's saying that such a vampire should not exist in the first place. Think BtVS, where vampires lack souls and are therefore irredeemable.

What about the Autumn Court Changeling who takes emotions without truly removing them, then? It's equivalent, even to working beside the vampire, except that let's say in the Changeling's case, the people don't even know anything is being done, and thus can't consent. Do they die too?

That's not at all equivalent. Changelings don't take emotions any more than plants drain light from the sun.

[Lady Serpentine]

I believe he's saying that such a vampire should not exist in the first place. Think BtVS, where vampires lack souls and are therefore irredeemable.

BtVS?

In any case, the fact remains, he's saying that once it does exist, it needs to be removed from existence. Considering that, I don't really see the point of going into religious questions like whether they have a soul, seeing as that's entirely irrelevant to whether or not they're good or evil, that being based on their beliefs and actions.

That's not at all equivalent. Changelings don't take emotions any more than plants drain light from the sun.

As I said, 'without truly removing them'. Changelings do no harm, but on the other hand, they are rooting through your emotions and feeding on them - which is roughly equivalent to a vampire who never takes enough to do real harm to any of their victims, is it not? Certainly, both could be said to be parasites...

[Sith_Happens]

BtVS?

Buffy the Vampire Slayer. Buffyverse vampires are technically demon-possessed corpses with the memories of the people they once were, and as such are irredeemably evil unless you use powerful magic to return their human souls to them (i.e.- resurrect the actual person that the vampire is a facsimile of, though they're still physically a vampire afterwards, thereby resulting in the typical "struggle between their human nature and their need for blood" shtick).

[Lady Serpentine]

Buffy the Vampire Slayer. Buffyverse vampires are technically demon-possessed corpses with the memories of the people they once were, and as such are irredeemably evil unless you use powerful magic to return their human souls to them (i.e.- resurrect the actual person that the vampire is a facsimile of, though they're still physically a vampire afterwards, thereby resulting in the typical "struggle between their human nature and their need for blood" shtick).

Okay, I'm officially an idiot. I actually knew that, but just didn't connect up the acronym and lack of soul to the universe. >.>

[comicshorse]

Now, to be fair, given it only takes a few dots in the Token Merit - or at least, not precisely a few, but Merits are cheap - and a little creativity to get things like 16 Agg a swing at almost anything, I'd certainly not call them low-powered, but...

Out of idle curiousity ( and to stop my PCs doing it) how do you do that ?

[Lady Serpentine]

Out of idle curiousity ( and to stop my PCs doing it) how do you do that ?

Make a token that does Wyrd+Mantle ([Court]) Aggravated damage. Burn Clarity by two points. Spend four Merit dots on Mantle, three on the token, plus the XP to buy a fourth dot of Token. GMC makes it so that the fifth dots no longer take two, so get the attribute and skill that it uses both up to five. For an extra point, if you want it, use one of your starting Specialties on the type of weapon that you're using. Congratulations, you now have the component 'Tears of an ST', and a weapon that does 16 or 17 Agg at chargen.

Alternately, you do what I did and convince your ST you should be able to buy supernatural things like Mantle and Tokens with Pledges, but the above method does work.

(Of course, that's got some drawbacks - in the case of my Token, 'only' does 2L to things strongly attuned to cold, and for each scene I activate it in, I can't regain Willpower from my vice for a day (as well as the fact that activating it without Glamour makes everyone see me as covered in blood for the rest of the day, and requires a goat or something to sacrifice - but still.)

[MugaSofer]

But more importantly, as a straight-up power fantasy vampires are boring. When was the last time you read a book or watched a movie about vampires where their single defining trait was how awesome it was to be a vampire and how people were literally lining up to become vampires?

Actually, that sounds oddly like the movie I just watched, Blade: Trinity.

Which, for the record, has your standard "soulless evil guilt-free-to-kill-em" vamps.

The condition system strikes me as a lot of words for something very simple.

So what you're saying is, it's NOT a bad system, it's a good system that has been cunningly disguised by poorly-written discriptions? You know, I think you might have a point there.

Oh, wait... no. It still falls flat for me. I simply cannot empathize with anyone who considers it okay to kill people who don't deserve it outside of self-defense, unless he really regrets it (and is penitent at some point) or has some MAJOR extenuating circumstances. Take, for example, the tv show Continuum: despite being mass murderers, Liberate has the redeeming quality that they are, despite their actions, in the right. Even so, I still want to see them executed after they (hopefully) win.

That's some unusally limited empathy you've got there, mate. I suggest double-checking the phrase "who don't deserve it" - historically, humans are capable of deciding people "deserve it" for reasons that are, y'know, villainous, so try empathising with them. And maybe playing some violent videogames, to get into the mindset of "NPCs don't matter, and it's fun to kill them, so I do."

...What was so bad about being powerful again?

The dicepool system, I believe, is often criticised as not holding up well at high power lelvels.

Sure, I don't like GMC, but I do recognize that nWoD 1.0 has numerous stupid design choices. It would makes things so much simpler if everyone drew from the same pool of powers, rather than giving everyone their own version of "supernatural attribute" with wildly different effects.

... except that then the mechanics of those powers wouldn't reflect the themes of the splat in question, would they?

Is it a coincidence that while vampires have steadily lost weaknesses over time they have continued to gain new powers?

Is that actually true? Your modern "standard vampire" has a lot of weaknesses, and while they've lost some of the traditional ones those they retained have largely increased in danger.

Thats why I try to keep my vampires strictly unholy irredeemable parasitic monsters, with perhaps maybe one or two of them trying to find alternate ways to get blood ... at the end of the day a vampire is an evil parasite that deserves only extermination for what it does to others

I like me some scary vampires, but that's hardly the One True Way to do them. "Vampires" can be anything from a superhero origin to a terrifying rabies-esque pandemic.

I believe he's saying that such a vampire should not exist in the first place. Think BtVS, where vampires lack souls and are therefore irredeemable.

Two points:

1. That makes doing Good Works a very effective strategy for getting slayers off your back, doesn't it?
2. IF you can give a Vamp back their soul and redeem them - which you can - then killing a vampire is murdering a possessed innocent. It might be a necessary tragedy on occasion, to stop them harming themself or others, but...

[JAnderson789]

The thing with Geists is that that's the easiest way to get rid of ghosts, especially ones with durable, hidden, or public anchors. My main problem with Geists is that the power level is wildly swingy within their own splat, and they get two to three powers for each dot, granting them near-Mage levels of flexibility.

As for drawing from the same pool... Simpler, yes. 'Better' is debatable. There's nothing too bad about Glamour or Plasm, for instance. They have reasonable mechanics and you only need to worry about one at a time as a player.

I don't mean using the same kind of magic points (the only difference between those is how they're regained and used). I mean that there is a standardized set of supernatural powers, like supernatural toughness or supernatural speed or mind control, than all splats select from, rather than each having their own variation of the same effect with wildly different levels of power. The charms system used in Exalted is basically what I'm talking about, and nWoD could definitely have benefited from using that instead of the hoops it jumps through now (e.g. vampires have disciplines, devotions, discipline merits, etc). And a universal magic system wouldn't hurt either.

[Mephisto]

I don't mean using the same kind of magic points (the only difference between those is how they're regained and used). I mean that there is a standardized set of supernatural powers, like supernatural toughness or supernatural speed or mind control, than all splats select from, rather than each having their own variation of the same effect with wildly different levels of power. The charms system used in Exalted is basically what I'm talking about, and nWoD could definitely have benefited from using that instead of the hoops it jumps through now (e.g. vampires have disciplines, devotions, discipline merits, etc). And a universal magic system wouldn't hurt either.

So basically the system from Hunter the Vigil, where every antagonist is constructed from the same set of generic "Dark Powers"?

Bluh, no. The various supernatural types have intrinsic differences right down to their souls, and I think having everyone use the same mechanics would take away from that.

[Lord Raziere]

So, in your opinion, a vampire who, say, harvests blood from willing (that is, not mind-controlled, not threatened) people who know what they're doing, never enough from any one person to be actively harmful to them, and also works nights at, for instance, a local charity that takes in people with nowhere else to go. doing completely above-board work helping them and the rest of the community, deserves to die?

I see.

What about the Autumn Court Changeling who takes emotions without truly removing them, then? It's equivalent, even to working beside the vampire, except that let's say in the Changeling's case, the people don't even know anything is being done, and thus can't consent. Do they die too?

look, I'd rather err on the side of caution with these kinds of things. you know full well that the Vampire could go into a frenzy, and that Changelings could slip deeper into insanity. that their nature is struggle, a conflict within themselves, and its always possible to lose. even if I'm wrong for doing so, I'd rather have done this wrong than allow another greater wrong to be perpetrated out of neglect.

I doubt the world will miss its parasitic potentially-frenzied beast supernatural manipulators all that much. and if you leave a vampire walking? they could Embrace someone for company and start the cycle of parasitic feeding all over again. and since vampires are immortal? its not a thing could happen, its a thing that will inevitably happen, all that is needed is time, I doubt there is a single vampire that could remain that controlled for thousands of years, sooner or later there is going to be a slip-up of some sort, its just pure probability.

sooner or later that vampire will eventually get find someone who wants to be Embraced, and fall to temptation and do so, and they being a younger foolish vampire will probably slip-up sooner and embrace another out of temptation and soon your stuck with a bunch of supernatural parasitic manipulators feeding off the world again. even if it takes thousands of years, you leave one vampire alive and there is always a chance of them returning and being the parasitic monsters they are.

and that is assuming that such a vampire is even possible. remember, these are inhuman parasites we are talking about, their very nature changed to be predators of humanity, their very nature and perception altered to look at humanity as food. farmers after all, are friendly to their livestock but they still slaughter them at the end. I would not be surprised if the closest equivalent to the vampire you talked about would be a human farmer. convince everyone your a friendly vampire, go do whatever you want then blame it on other vampires if they ask questions. its not as if there is any shortage of vampires to blame, as long your careful, you could have your human acceptance cake and eat it too. I would not be surprised if the human farmer strategy is one of the more successful ways to stay on top of the game amongst vampires, cause all the normal humans would be focused on being hunters of other vampires and think of you as merely a friendly informant. of course the deception helps when you are a legitimate source of info at first and really do help them take down vampires who did something wrong….

at the end of day, I'm just saying: vampires shouldn't be glorified into something they are not. their default mode is parasitic monster, and while there is probably some out there who are more controlled about it, that doesn't really justify allowing this threat to continue to feed off and exploit humanity for their own selfish ends, or even allowing the potential for such monsters to flourish again. that and for some reason, I doubt people getting drained of blood on a daily basis is good for their long term health. there is more to harm than just the direct active kind. there is also the slow subtle kind that is arguably far more dangerous because it fools you into thinking its not there just because you don't feel it, or because its a longs ways off.

vampires, even at their best, definitely qualify for that slow subtle harm.