General WoD Discussion #2: Its time to Celebrate!

[SiuiS]

Dang. That's not a phone ready forum...

[One Tin Soldier]

Man, that's awesome. Exponentially increases the possibilities.



Oooh, you're playing a Genius in a GMC game?

Indeed I am! If you're interested in how the rules interact, the only difference we've figured out so far is with Katastrophi. The base damage of Katastrophic wonders is reduced from 5 to 4 (as all GMC weapons' damage ratings are 1 less than they were before). Initiative modifiers are dependent on their configurations, for ranged weaponry, and for melee weapons the penalty is equal to the wonder's size.

I imagine that Epikrato could be expanded to interact with some of the new social things, but it's not something we've thought about.

[MugaSofer]

Yeah, I'm helping with/trying to get off the ground the GMC "edition" of G:tT (it'll include some rule patches, errata, and other stuff that has been waiting for 1.2 to come out.) So I'm quite interested in where you've found issues or had to houserule things; particularly that "initiative mod based on Size" thing, we haven't got that worked out yet.

How have you guys handled the changes to Armor with Prostasia? Or have you not run into that? We're restructuring Prostasia a fair bit anyway because it was quite heavily errata'd and so on.

[Aramyth]

I have a simple question: Can a Vampire(Requiem Edition, because Vampires have Editions.) drink the blood on an animal, and still gain Vitae? Or are all Vampires doomed to succumb to the beast?

[The Glyphstone]

NWoD Vampires can gain sustenance from animals as long as they are Blood Potency 3 or lower.

[One Tin Soldier]

Yeah, I'm helping with/trying to get off the ground the GMC "edition" of G:tT (it'll include some rule patches, errata, and other stuff that has been waiting for 1.2 to come out.) So I'm quite interested in where you've found issues or had to houserule things; particularly that "initiative mod based on Size" thing, we haven't got that worked out yet.

How have you guys handled the changes to Armor with Prostasia? Or have you not run into that? We're restructuring Prostasia a fair bit anyway because it was quite heavily errata'd and so on.

Well we've only played 2 sessions so far, and combat hasn't come up yet. Our modifications are based on how they've been balancing everything else for GMC. (Like the weapon rating decrease.) The initiative penalty part was pretty much a spur-of-the-moment judgement call, since the initiative penalties for melee weapons in GMC seem to be based on harder science than usually applies to wonders.
My thoughts are that there should be a set initiative penalty for each weapon configuration (equal to Size for melee wonders), but there should be a variable to adjust it.

We haven't touched Prostasia yet, mostly because they didn't nerf Mage Armor in the update. If anything, they seem to have made Mage Armor stronger, thanks to changes in how the ballistic rating works.
EDIT: We decided from the get-go to use the alternate Prostasia rules, since they're just plain more interesting.


Like I said, though, everything we've done so far is theoretical at this point. Our houserules may adjust as we get into the meat of the game.

I'm curious about what you've been doing so far, though. I haven't been able to find any real discussion on the topic so far, and would like to hear other opinions.

[The Random NPC]

NWoD Vampires can gain sustenance from animals as long as they are Blood Potency 3 or lower.

Or if they have enough dots in Coils of Blood.

[The Glyphstone]

True, but that's a subset of vampires, not the general sense he seemed to be looking for.

[josienoms]

If anyone's interested in a solo pbp game, I have a thread recruiting here.

[One Tin Soldier]

Since I was talking about my Genius game, I wanted to share a thing that my DM did.
Pictures below:

Spoiler

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Yes, he printed out and bound the entire book, by himself.

[MugaSofer]

Wow. Slightly humbling to see the impressive fans Genius has.

(Also, that is one brick of a book)

[The Glyphstone]

Was Genius ever updated or re-released? Version 1.1 on the top Google result is three years old.

[One Tin Soldier]

Wow. Slightly humbling to see the impressive fans Genius has.

(Also, that is one brick of a book)

Well, it's largely because he couldn't do double-sided pages, so each page is 2 pieces of paper glued together.

Still, you're right. It is huge.

Was Genius ever updated or re-released? Version 1.1 on the top Google result is three years old.

Not since 1.1, unless you count the alternate/better Prostasia rules. Though apparently a bunch of people aside from moochava are working on 1.2.

[comicshorse]

Is there any suggestion in any of the Changelings books as to how many Changelings you should have in a city. I remember in OWoD it was suggested there should be 10,000 humans per Vampire and wondered if anybody had suggested a similair ratio for Changelings

[OACSNY97]

I do not remember anything specific other than saying that cities/regions with a number of trods tend to have larger Changeling populations than those with few trods. I think I remember seeing somewhere in Changeling Core that some rather large US metropolitan area (off the top of my head I can't remember if it was NYC or Chicago) had a single freehold of just over 20 individuals, where the example of Miami had somewhere into the low triple digits.

Personally, if you're planning on having a court structure that is large enough to do political maneuvering, I think each major court needs 10 people plus or minus 1 or 2.

As such, when I was getting ready to run a Changeling game, I came up with a 'census' for nWOD (pre-Mummy) major templates. You are welcome to borrow it (see spoiler below for length) and I'd be interested to hear whether I estimated reasonably or not. I think some of them are kind of low but this is what seemed like few enough of each type to not have 'muggles' be the tripping over the supernaturals every time the turn around.

Spoiler

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World of Darkness
Major Supernatural Groups Populations

Population estimates based on world population of 6.5 billion and a United States population of 300 million. US populations are calculated as a percentage of the world population for each group. Some groups, Mage in particular, are likely present in the United States in greater numbers than strictly predicted based on population ratios.

Ratio World Population USA Population
Vampire 1:30,000 216,000 10,000
Werewolf 1:25,000 260,000 12,000
Mage 1:500,000 13,000 600 (really 2,000)
Promethean - 500-100 23
Changeling 1:34,000 191,000 9,000
Sin-Eater 1:100,000 65,000 3,000
Hunter 1:4,500 1,400,000 70,000

Is there any suggestion in any of the Changelings books as to how many Changelings you should have in a city. I remember in OWoD it was suggested there should be 10,000 humans per Vampire and wondered if anybody had suggested a similair ratio for Changelings

[Lady Serpentine]

I think each major court needs 10 people plus or minus 1 or 2.

Would that be major players, or total membership? If the latter, do you ever run larger Courts, and how does it differ? Also, how much larger are they, and is there a specific reason for those points? If the former, how many supporting members does a Court of that size need? And either way, does which Court affect those numbers independent of its place in the hierarchy, such as, for instance, Autumn tending to be small for their prominence?

[MugaSofer]

Spoiler

Show

World of Darkness
Major Supernatural Groups Populations

Population estimates based on world population of 6.5 billion and a United States population of 300 million. US populations are calculated as a percentage of the world population for each group. Some groups, Mage in particular, are likely present in the United States in greater numbers than strictly predicted based on population ratios.

Ratio World Population USA Population
Vampire 1:30,000 216,000 10,000
Werewolf 1:25,000 260,000 12,000
Mage 1:500,000 13,000 600 (really 2,000)
Promethean - 500-100 23
Changeling 1:34,000 191,000 9,000
Sin-Eater 1:100,000 65,000 3,000
Hunter 1:4,500 1,400,000 70,000

Wow, that's great!

... yeah, I got nothing. Very impressive, I must say. Am I missing out on something with the "really 2000" for Mages? I'm not that up on my Mage.

(Man, there are that few Prometheans? No wonder the other splats don't know much about them. It's kind of incredible they ever encounter the stuff from their own splatbooks, actually...)

[Selrahc]

... yeah, I got nothing. Very impressive, I must say. Am I missing out on something with the "really 2000" for Mages? I'm not that up on my Mage.

Mage is a much more global game. Mages have free travel to anywhere on Earth with ease, and a game of Mage is much more likely to have world roaming adventures.

I can see a lot of Mages choosing to base themselves in America.

Awakenings are also semi-random, but I don't see any real reason why Americans would be more prone to Awakenings than the global population at large.

[comicshorse]

I do not remember anything specific other than saying that cities/regions with a number of trods tend to have larger Changeling populations than those with few trods. I think I remember seeing somewhere in Changeling Core that some rather large US metropolitan area (off the top of my head I can't remember if it was NYC or Chicago) had a single freehold of just over 20 individuals, where the example of Miami had somewhere into the low triple digits.

I can't find where it gives a Changeling population for Miami. Can I have a page reference please

[123456789blaaa]

Have there been any moments when you were reading the WOD books and laughed where you weren't exactly meant to?

[sktarq]

Constantly.
Every book.
Both giggles and groaners.....
did one really get to you?

[OACSNY97]

I'm going to answer several posters individually in different posts.

It's vague and scattered throughout the Miami section.
The most concrete number is on page 335 and is quoted below-
"Denizens of the freehold
Miami is home to approximately 100 changelings, not
counting the exiles of Rose Thorne’s Spring Court." Otherwise there are vague clues as to the relative population of each court on pages 327-331. It directly says Summer is the largest, then Autumn but is left the the reader to decide if Winter or Spring is the smallest.

I can't find where it gives a Changeling population for Miami. Can I have a page reference please

[OACSNY97]

That would be major players, how ever many and of whatever composition any given Freehold has. If a Freehold has two major courts and a couple of fringe groups, the courts large enough to be considered proper courts would have at least 10 members and the smaller groups some lesser number. I figure the average Freehold has somewhere in the neighborhood of 25-75 Changelings, who may or may not live directly in the city that gives the Freehold its name.

I've got no problem with a Freehold that has one court with disproportionate influence for its size. It's ironic that you used Autumn as the example because that is indeed the case in the Freehold that my group made up and is playing with. Our story is based out our homebrew Freehold of Flagstaff Arizona, which we decided is a midsized Freehold wedged in between the much larger ones in Phoenix and Las Vegas, where the Autumn Monarch has such a force of personality that the other three court leaders have made him the defacto leader.

If you're interested I'll put some more of my campaign notes in spoilers.

Spoiler

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Flagstaff Freehold Guide

Approximately 50-55 members.
Uses Courts of the Seasons- Spring is the smallest due to Las Vegas drawing off 'talent', other three relatively evenly divided, though Summer tends to have a slight advantage of about 2-5 more members than Autumn and Winter most of the time. Usually about 5 Court unaffiliated members of the Freehold at any time.

Courts-
Spring-
~8 members
Queen- Peggy Day
Darkling
Nightsinger
Temperance/Lust
Chaotic Neutral/Good
A no nonsense, worldly woman, with a sense of wicked and dirty sense of humor. Second most influential leader.

Summer-
~15 members
King- Roger Slate (aka Rocky)
Ogre
Stonebones
Fortitude/Sloth
Lawful Good
(talks in monosyllables)
Largest court but least influential leader due to lack of charisma. He got Summer by being able to knock more heads together and still stand than anyone else. (Think stereotypical DnD dwarf)

Autumn-
~14 members
Monarch- Dana Barker
Wizened
Gameplayer
Prudence/Pride
Chaotic Neutral
(“Fear is the mind killer...”
“All the world’s a stage, and all the men and women merely players...”)
Essentially King of Flagstaff, while he hands off power at the appropriate time, whenever major decisions have to be made, everybody looks at the other leaders and then at him. A ruthless, yet oddly caring, magnificent bastard with a major caffeine addiction.

Winter-
~13 members
King- Ernest Bunbury
Beast
Truefriend
Charity/Greed
Neutral Good
Acts like Charlie out of Charlie's Angels- spies on everyone and is rarely seen.

"Originally Posted by OACSNY97 View Post
I think each major court needs 10 people plus or minus 1 or 2."

Would that be major players, or total membership? If the latter, do you ever run larger Courts, and how does it differ? Also, how much larger are they, and is there a specific reason for those points? If the former, how many supporting members does a Court of that size need? And either way, does which Court affect those numbers independent of its place in the hierarchy, such as, for instance, Autumn tending to be small for their prominence?

[The Glyphstone]

Have there been any moments when you were reading the WOD books and laughed where you weren't exactly meant to?

Very much so. I'm immediately reminded of the passage in the Requiem core book where it talks about extreme environments:

The pressure at the bottom of a
deep-sea trench (what sort of chronicle are you playing, anyway?)
might crush an unfortunate vampire who lacks Resilience to endure
it. Some fish live in those awful depths, but they have evolved
to adapt to those conditions. Total vacuum (good God, what sort
of chronicle is this?) could inflict bashing or, at most, a few points
of lethal damage as blood vessels rupture.

[OACSNY97]

I'm glad you liked it. My big problem was coming up with numbers that were large enough to make internal sense within a splat, but was small enough that when added to totals from the rest of the game lines every third person ISN'T a supernatural. This gets really irritating when taking into consideration the major social groups within a game line and the secret societies since it's pretty lame to have an established secret society of only two or three people total worldwide.

The "really 2000" for Mage is based off of my ratio calculations:
"(ratio Mages to Muggles) 1:500,000 (World Population)13,000 (US Population) 600 (really 2,000)"

Six hundred Mages in the US seems kind of low- if the average group is between 20 and 50 individuals, there would only be 12-30 groups nation wide which seems rather few. Therefore 2000 number was to represent immigration of Mages to the US, either as permanent residents or as long term visitors.

And yes, no more than 1000 Prometheans worldwide and I've got someone in my group who's arguing for a max cap of 500. There was no way I could justify a larger number with the stupid (in my mind) wasteland and disquiet mechanics. I haven't read Promethean but have heard enough about who difficult those mechanics make staying on one place for a Promethean that a very limited number seemed necessary otherwise the wasteland would be much more prevalent.

Wow, that's great! [Refers to homebrew 'census' of nWoD major splats]

... yeah, I got nothing. Very impressive, I must say. Am I missing out on something with the "really 2000" for Mages? I'm not that up on my Mage.

(Man, there are that few Prometheans? No wonder the other splats don't know much about them. It's kind of incredible they ever encounter the stuff from their own splatbooks, actually...)

[Eurus]

Prometheans are also rare because they really don't pop up that often. Most are made by other Prometheans as one of the steps on their great work, but very few Prometheans bother to make more than one, and many never get to that point at all. Other than that, they mostly only come around from muggles who do SCIENCE and suddenly bam, Frankenstein's monster. Which is supposed to be extremely rare.

[One Tin Soldier]

Very much so. I'm immediately reminded of the passage in the Requiem core book where it talks about extreme environments:

I love that passage. Especially since they went on to make Infinite Macabre.

Oh, though our group did wind up making use of those rules outside of space opera games. The answer to "what kind of chronicle are you running" turns out to be "core Geist."

[Mono Vertigo]

(good God, what sort
of chronicle is this?)

The best V:tR chronicle.

[Yuki Akuma]

Very much so. I'm immediately reminded of the passage in the Requiem core book where it talks about extreme environments:

I'm fairly sure that passage is intended to be humourous. So you were meant to laugh.

[JMobius]

Prometheans are also rare because they really don't pop up that often. Most are made by other Prometheans as one of the steps on their great work, but very few Prometheans bother to make more than one, and many never get to that point at all. Other than that, they mostly only come around from muggles who do SCIENCE and suddenly bam, Frankenstein's monster. Which is supposed to be extremely rare.

I've generally assumed most Prometheans DO attempt to create progeny more than once, as given that Prometheans have finite lifespans under normal circumstances, otherwise all the lineages are at below population replacement levels. It doesn't seem like it would make any sense that the older lineages could still exist.