General Exalted Discussion Thread XI: Great Job, You Broke the Scale.

[Kobold-Bard]

Given that Cosmic Principle doesn't automatically give you the rest of the charmset and strips away all other charms, that'd be a remarkably weak Yozi. It's really meant as the capstone ability once you've learned all the other charms.

A better plan is teaching someone your own cosmic principle, effectively making them your Jouten. Then you already have him on call for when something goes wrong.

Primordials know all their own Charms though, right? So I figured they'd just trade all their old charms for XP (like Devil Tigers can), which would be reflexively spent on their new Charmset, going into XP debt to pay the excess.

Edit: What's a nicer name for Vitriol? I'm trying to make GSP's less "always Chaotic Evil" in my head, and Vitriol just sounds too villainy.

[Story Time]

Of course, just saying that you should "fix" them is not the same as doing it.

...finally...some-thing worth reading in this thread. And I really appreciate the sentiment. For all of the supposed open-mindedness that Exalted is supposed to represent I've met way too many people who ( I believe ) can't assume changes to their perception of the canon material.

...which really reminds me of broken-Primordials now that I think about it.

At any rate I've had a long-standing view with Exalted that any-thing is possible. The bare minimum being the Wyld. The Wyld and their Folk are all about making the impossible happen.

As a GameMaster I've bent that third rule repeatedly. I haven't had much call for the destruction of an Exaltation [item] in my games. But changing them, transforming them, and transporting them between hosts? Yep.


...since some-one mentioned the word, "Impossible," I wonder if Meschlum will show up soon.

[Lix Lorn]

Nah, the Incarnae are a lost cause; they're all a bunch of druggies anyway.

What.
We can fix the beings who want to turn our world into a literal hell so they can reclaim their utter tyranny and ignore us as irrelevant, but the guys who want to help, but aren't very good at it are a lost cause?

[Kobold-Bard]

What.
We can fix the beings who want to turn our world into a literal hell so they can reclaim their utter tyranny and ignore us as irrelevant, but the guys who want to help, but aren't very good at it are a lost cause?

Yes, because helping the Gods requires actually helping them rather than just repeatedly chopping bits off them until they check all the boxes on the Exalted parole clipboard.

Also: the guys who want to help, but aren't very good at it? Since when do the Incarnae want to help? People are just batteries to power their Essence respiration. They're like the machines in the Matrix.

[omegalith]

You can, if nothing else, chuck a contained Exaltation into oblivion.

Plus, there's a comment in Abyssals to the effect of that if you take the "And the bearer of this item has free will" effect out of an Exaltation whilst editing it, it either stops functioning or falls apart.

The "No resurrection" thing has one or two bypasses as well: Basically if you can get the Hun and Po into a new body before they're cleansed of memory, it's basically the same person. Though their Essence count is reset.

[Story Time]

Also: the guys who want to help, but aren't very good at it? Since when do the Incarnae want to help?

...um...I ran a game where the Celestial Incarnae were effective good-guys. They had just been trapped for a really long time in special containers and most mortals didn't know it.

[Tavar]

Yes, because helping the Gods requires actually helping them rather than just repeatedly chopping bits off them until they check all the boxes on the Exalted parole clipboard.

You do realize this would make anyone who follows such a plan a monster on the order of some of the worst from Human history.

Also: the guys who want to help, but aren't very good at it? Since when do the Incarnae want to help? People are just batteries to power their Essence respiration. They're like the machines in the Matrix.

The Sun's depression stems from his inability to help the world while contrained by this virtues.

Luna's...Luna. She's the bogyman, so great against active threats, not so great at solving other problems.

And the Maidens have extremely inhuman(but vital) mindsets. For Example, the Maiden of endings doesn't care who's dying, whether they're a villain or a hero, only that their life ends at the proper time. They help, but their help is limited, and if often dedicated to keeping things running, rather than troubleshooting.

You can, if nothing else, chuck a contained Exaltation into oblivion.

Kinda. Word of god is that Exaltations can't be destroyed, and no container can contain them enough to reach oblivion.

Plus, there's a comment in Abyssals to the effect of that if you take the "And the bearer of this item has free will" effect out of an Exaltation whilst editing it, it either stops functioning or falls apart.

Considering some of the other things that have said that they're imperishable, not entirely sure that's the reading of that line the dev's are going with.

The "No resurrection" thing has one or two bypasses as well: Basically if you can get the Hun and Po into a new body before they're cleansed of memory, it's basically the same person. Though their Essence count is reset.

Not quite: there's some ambiguity as to whether biomorphic clones are actually the same person in setting.

[Lix Lorn]

Kinda. Word of god is that Exaltations can't be destroyed, and no container can contain them enough to reach oblivion.

Presumably the container would be blown up first and the exaltation would say BYE

[Kobold-Bard]

You do realize this would make anyone who follows such a plan a monster on the order of some of the worst from Human history.

That bit was sarcasm.

The Sun's depression stems from his inability to help the world while contrained by this virtues.

...

He cares about Creation, sure. But not the people living on it. They're just fodder.

"Let us take men, and give them the favour of the gods, and use them as our champions against the Primordials, so that we may overthrow them, and play for ourselves the Games of Divinity."

[omegalith]

You do realize this would make anyone who follows such a plan a monster on the order of some of the worst from Human history

Lobotomizing people because you don't like their personality is bad, yes. That said, most of the Yozi's are already in a state where important bits of their mind have been chopped out, and aren't very happy about it. It might be possible to talk some of them into voluntarily undergoing soul surgery.

Also: Reincarnation wipes the memories out of a person and uses their raw materials to make a new person. That's kinda horrific if you stop to think about the implications.

[omegalith]

He cares about Creation, sure. But not the people living on it. They're just fodder.

"Let us take men, and give them the favour of the gods, and use them as our champions against the Primordials, so that we may overthrow them, and play for ourselves the Games of Divinity."

The gods are his people, and his priority. He has compassion for humans, but doesn't go out of his way to help them, instead letting the Solar Deliberative be set up.

Also bear in mind that if the gods tried to rule humanity, they wouldn't be able to keep the Exalted from rebelling if they decided they didn't like that idea.

Presumably the container would be blown up first and the exaltation would say BYE

Only if Oblivion has gradual degrees of effect. If it just has an event horizon beyond which everything is destroyed, the durability of the container is irrelevant.

[Hiro Protagonest]

...finally...some-thing worth reading in this thread. And I really appreciate the sentiment. For all of the supposed open-mindedness that Exalted is supposed to represent I've met way too many people who ( I believe ) can't assume changes to their perception of the canon material.

...which really reminds me of broken-Primordials now that I think about it.

At any rate I've had a long-standing view with Exalted that any-thing is possible. The bare minimum being the Wyld. The Wyld and their Folk are all about making the impossible happen.

As a GameMaster I've bent that third rule repeatedly. I haven't had much call for the destruction of an Exaltation [item] in my games. But changing them, transforming them, and transporting them between hosts? Yep.


...since some-one mentioned the word, "Impossible," I wonder if Meschlum will show up soon.

I guess I get your view that eventually, you run out of stuff to do in canon. But if all you do is add a bunch of city-states, minor kingdoms, and thaumaturges and essence users in the blank areas between the dots on the big map, and leave everything else practically untouched, I could see a LOT of Exalted games happening before you get totally bored with canon. Hell, you don't even have to keep the stuff you created the same.

Actually though, I am fine with a lot of non-canon stuff, as long as it makes sense and doesn't drastically change fundamentals unless it's some sort of alternate history or just another setting. Lookshy is secretly run by Lunars? Okay. Lookshy is openly run by Lunars? Then you better explain what the Lunars have been doing the past 1500 years, because if it's not changed, then this sort of obvious rulership is completely counter to their agenda. And this is going to have an effect on the Haslanti League, the Haltans, and the Delzahn, which are Thousand Streams River projects.

[Tavar]

That bit was sarcasm.

Ah, couldn't tell.

He cares about Creation, sure. But not the people living on it. They're just fodder.

"Let us take men, and give them the favour of the gods, and use them as our champions against the Primordials, so that we may overthrow them, and play for ourselves the Games of Divinity."

Only if you ignore his portrayed character. In which case I'm not sure why you're talking about his portrayed character.

Keep in mind, one quote does not sum up a character, especially an IC quote delivered to a specific audience(the gods, in this case).

To counter your point, look at, oh, Glories or any of the Unconquered Sun Daystar Articles.

Lobotomizing people because you don't like their personality is bad, yes. That said, most of the Yozi's are already in a state where important bits of their mind have been chopped out, and aren't very happy about it. It might be possible to talk some of them into voluntarily undergoing soul surgery.

The Yozi already have the capability, but chose not to use it because the result is never certain. Moreover, doing so essentially kills the person that they are now, which they don't really want.

Also, keep in mind that the parts you're cutting off are actually, sapient individuals as well.

Finally, remember that, if the world is supposed to be safe, the Primordials aren't going to have a say in how they are changed. That's probably not an easy sell.

Also: Reincarnation wipes the memories out of a person and uses their raw materials to make a new person. That's kinda horrific if you stop to think about the implications.

Only if you're expecting an Eternal Reward. Heck, there are multiple systems of thought that use reincarnation in this world, and some systems that don't have any afterlife.

Only if Oblivion has gradual degrees of effect. If it just has an event horizon beyond which everything is destroyed, the durability of the container is irrelevant.

Only if the container went from one side of the line to the other instantaneously, with no time inbetween.

[omegalith]

Only if you're expecting an Eternal Reward. Heck, there are multiple systems of thought that use reincarnation in this world, and some systems that don't have any afterlife.

I'm not talking about an eternal reward or any other form of afterlife: Merely that allowing someone's essence to persist with the brain scrubbed out is little different from a lobotomy, and rather similar to what you're condemning happening to Primordials.

Only if the container went from one side of the line to the other instantaneously, with no time inbetween.

Ah, so the Exaltation is going to escape out the destroyed side of the container, which is currently touching oblivion then?

[Tavar]

I'm not talking about an eternal reward or any other form of afterlife: Merely that allowing someone's essence to persist with the brain scrubbed out is little different from a lobotomy, and rather similar to what you're condemning happening to Primordials.

There's the little manner of death happening, and a cessation of consciousness and awareness. Things that aren't true for the Primordial in this case.

Ah, so the Exaltation is going to escape out the destroyed side of the container, which is currently touching oblivion then?

Once one side of the container is broken, the container no longer has the proper structure to confound an Exaltation, so it leaves.

[golentan]

Edit: What's a nicer name for Vitriol? I'm trying to make GSP's less "always Chaotic Evil" in my head, and Vitriol just sounds too villainy.

Vitriol is also known as Theion To.

[omegalith]

There's the little manner of death happening, and a cessation of consciousness and awareness. Things that aren't true for the Primordial in this case.

Tell that to all the Ghosts who don't want to enter Lethe.

I suppose Fetich death could be loosely equated to a messier version of Doctor Who style regeneration.

Whilst I wouldn't want someone to start editing my mind without my permission, I might go in for having laziness pruned or something, depending on what the options were.

Once one side of the container is broken, the container no longer has the proper structure to confound an Exaltation, so it leaves.

A Monstrance still works with a hole blown in it until quite significant damage is done, and I'm pretty sure the Jade Prison also described the Exaltations as leaking out of the holes rather than fleeing in every direction as soon as the wards were scratched.

[Lix Lorn]

A Monstrance still works with a hole blown in it until quite significant damage is done, and I'm pretty sure the Jade Prison also described the Exaltations as leaking out of the holes rather than fleeing in every direction as soon as the wards were scratched.

Pretty sure 'a hole blown in it' counts as significant damage. xD

[Kobold-Bard]

Vitriol is also known as Theion To.

So it is. I like that, I shall use it. Thanks.

golentan comes through again.

[omegalith]

So it is. I like that, I shall use it. Thanks.

golentan comes through again.

Given that Theion is Malfeas's original name, you could claim "Theion To" means "Theion's Blood".

Hence why it's lying around everywhere in Malfeas as a result of his crippling.

[Edge]

Given that Theion is Malfeas's original name, you could claim "Theion To" means "Theion's Blood".

Hence why it's lying around everywhere in Malfeas as a result of his crippling.

For some reason, my first guess at translating Theion to after the reveal of Theion in Shards was "Theion's tears". No idea why.

[SiderealDreams]

I've seen a lot of comments around various places to the effect of "Infernals is a great book except the first two chapters" or "And of course we all know the problems with the first two chapters".

Having now read it myself, I'm a little confused as to what the problem is meant to be, if it's supposedly so self evident.

Besides taking the decent idea of "have an Exalt-capable being reforged into a storage device for Exaltations we aren't currently using" then messing it up by making her unreasonably horrible and overly detailed, of course...

Well stuff like "Welcome to Malfeas, now gang rape!" stuff wasn't a help. The chapters in general paint a picture of Infernals, Yozis,etc that was...less sophisticated than previous work. One of the big things that give me a lot of happiness about 3e is not having folks writing chapters that are not in communication with the rest of the writers. Or otherwise doesn't have a real grasp on the setting.

[Dragnar]

The impression I get is that "Operation Make Everything Hell" is an extremely long-term project that'll take Millenia to complete, and that they'll be trying other things in the mean time.

...Not that the book does a great job of selling it that way, other than dropping hints at the Ebon Dragon's wedding being a plan in and of itself.

...See, the thing is. There's no good reason that making everything like hell would free them in the first place. Not a single metaphysical argument or explanation is given. Its just some gibberish that the yozi think will work for some reason.

And the wedding plan is that thing I mentioned from a non-canon book. Return of the Scarlet Empress is about one possible scenario for it, where the ED marries the Empress and thereby comes to own the realm. Therefore the Realm is a part of hell, by definition. And therefore he can go there. Or something like that.

...Adorjan is an abusive, passive-aggressive psychopath?

Outside of the Yozi conspirators, there's also Isidoros, who is best described as Sealed Power in a Can, and Sacheverell, who everyone besides himself (and I mean everyone) wants dead or at least asleep, because he's so damn scary.

Not to nit-pick, but NO ONE wants Sacheverell dead. The Eye That Sees dying is what made him. No one is willing to risk giving the fetich-death roulette another try for fear it'll come out even worse.

Edit: ...I swear there was a page less of posts when I went to write that! o_o

[SiderealDreams]

Adorjan is a Murder Buddha.

[meschlum]

A horde of beastmen advance on a seemingly unprepared village, their ranks breaking up as each part-human monstruosity tries to outdo its fellows in feral bloodlust. The townsfolk suddenly emerge from hiding, crossbows loaded and firing methodically, dropping the creatures. The few that make it to melee range are brought down by fine pikes and blades, their feeble blows deflected by the villager's high quality armor.

Displaying your talent for warfare by equipping a village with quality arms and armor: 1 Mina

At the heart of a luxurious mansion, a score or more fair maids and handsome youths, wearing clothing that is either quite abbreviated or remarkably tight, are playing, laughing, and idling peacefully. An expert eye will note that the women's chests are remarkably ample, and the men's pants under a lot of pressure.

Ensuring that your companions are the most talented in the land, thanks to advanced bio-thaumaturgy: 1 Bar

A massive reptilian head, followed by an equally gigantic body erupts out of a wide stretch of water, the River Dragon snapping a barge in half. As the panicked sailors try to make their way to the shore, an indistinct figure jumps straight towards the behemoth, seemingly empty-handed. At the last instant, a massive block of carved, green stone materializes in the figure's hands, sending the overgrown lizard flying.

JADE TO THE HEAD! 1 Talent

An ancient, ruined city, half consumed by vines and trees, is swarming with weird ape-human hybrids. What threat they might pose is eclipsed by that of their leader, a beautiful if unsettling girl who is levitating while summoning swarms of demons, eruptions of magma from the ground, and other forms of irresistible sorcerous terror. Suddenly, a huge palace appears above the mad lunar, and succumbs to the law of gravity, flattening the landscape.

Dropping a castle on Raksi's head: Priceless

A small jade rectangle appears, its surface flickering with images that can only be seen out of the corner of your eyes.

Some things have no price. For everything else, there's RakshaCard*.

1-dot Oneiromancy
Assumption of Dreams and Passion - the Card is familiar and recognized everywhere, even in isolated Sanddweller tribes that have never seen a human being.
Behemoth Forging Meditation - those who remain close to the bearer of the Card find their physical attributes... enhanced. Because the Card is somewhat divorced from Creation, neither lower back pain nor sagging result.
Ordinary Object Conjuration - simply waving the Card causes an entire Talent to appear, an ideal tool for hammering in the magnitude of its users' credit. spare chips of Jade due to ordinary wear and tear (including teeth, claws, weapons, and destructive Sorcery) simply grant its owner access to small change.
Behemoth Forging Meditation - some benighted portions of Creation are not aware of the benefits they can gain by signing on to the RakshaCard network and using credit. Simple contact with the Card corrects this, implanting the Delusion that they understand how the Card works, coupled with sufficient Derangements to make them marginally fluent in Old Realm ("And do you want a goat with that?"). Independent studies (funded by Fair Folk Co.) show that use of RakshaCard is not responsible for insanity, wyld infection, or rains of fish.

* For priceless wonders, contact your local RakshaCard vendor now - you may be eligible for our special early adopter discount!

[Amechra]

The solution seems clear.

Give every being in Creation a massive hug, and tell them that it will all be OK.

I'm thinking a Chosen of Serenity with some sort of custom-made Celestial martial art? That applies psychological aid to someone you are grappling.

[Turalisj]

Mesch, I challenge you to make an Infernal that isn't secretly or obviously (or otherwise) a fair folk

[Story Time]

But if all you do is add a bunch of city-states, minor kingdoms, and thaumaturges and essence users in the blank areas between the dots on the big map, and leave everything else practically untouched, I could see a LOT of Exalted games happening before you get totally bored with canon. Hell, you don't even have to keep the stuff you created the same.

What I've found in my own games is that the beginnings are relatively different. There's lots of room to move, maneuver, and add variance. Exploration of new places is always fun.

But then the game progresses to a bigger stage or a larger stage. The scope changes to the huge view. And the Players begin to expect The Big Bad Problem. You know, the Game End Scenario. Doing the same thing repeatedly brings complaints from the Players.

Luckily, there is a really big Creation with political factions and all sorts of things to help. But after the first ten campaigns those scenarios start to look the same. One can't just change the flavor of the villain.

For everything else, there's RakshaCard*.

...I wondered how long it would take Meschlum to break Masters of Jade! Good job!

I wish I could sign up for RakshaCard. Having my hard-disk-drive back would be nice.

[Rikandur Azebol]

Turalisj, it's quite easy to create such infernal playing as Raksha without being Raksha.

We take one belonging to Silent Wind with Stevie Dragon favored, or reverse, stack up enough Deragments for him to believe Exalted is just a game where silly people get overtly excited about and that fate of everything is solved by whim and rolled dice.

And unlike your typical protagonist, he or she doesn't give a whit about "I and even Yozi are just amusement for beings beyond everything", but goes simply crazy in the good old Adjorani style.

EDIT: And I do not have RakshaCard. Tch.

[Qwertystop]

...See, the thing is. There's no good reason that making everything like hell would free them in the first place. Not a single metaphysical argument or explanation is given. Its just some gibberish that the yozi think will work for some reason.

And the wedding plan is that thing I mentioned from a non-canon book. Return of the Scarlet Empress is about one possible scenario for it, where the ED marries the Empress and thereby comes to own the realm. Therefore the Realm is a part of hell, by definition. And therefore he can go there. Or something like that.

Oh, and he also (in some outcomes) tries to replace the Elemental Pole of Earth with himself.