General Exalted Discussion Thread XI: Great Job, You Broke the Scale.

[Lord Raziere]

...See, the thing is. There's no good reason that making everything like hell would free them in the first place. Not a single metaphysical argument or explanation is given. Its just some gibberish that the yozi think will work for some reason.

Actually there is: the Yozis cannot escape hell. If everything is made hell, the Yozis therefore can go everywhere, because everywhere is hell. its the loophole they think they found in the agreements they made.

[Doran]

But why would making something like Hell mean it is Hell?

[Kobold-Bard]

But why would making something like Hell mean it is Hell?

Because in Exalted Hell isn't a vague concept like in the real world. It's a literal place that you can go to and undertake research to determine what parameters define a place as Hell-like so in theory you can replicate it / change other places to match it.

In practise maybe that wouldn't work, but were talking about creatures who's minds are so complex that Thardak the Ravenous and Gluttonous (3rd Soul) and Viscount Abstinence (9th Soul) can wage war for a century to determine whether Malfeas gets a takeaway for dinner or sticks to his diet and has a salad. Logic doesn't necessarily come into it where the Yozi are concerned.

[Lord Raziere]

But why would making something like Hell mean it is Hell?

because, the Yozis ARE hell.

if you fill up the world with Malfeas essence for example, the essence starts making everything Malfean, until its literally Malfeas, because Malfeas and Malfeas essence are one and the same.

Your literally turning all of Creation into extensions of the Yozis. If Creation becomes hell? it becomes apart of the Yozis. it wouldn't be Creation but with Malfean flavor, it would be Malfeas in the shape of Creation by the time it is done.

think of it as Wyld-Shaping, only with Creation instead of the Wyld, and with the Yozis expanding themselves into whatever you Creation-Shape, because thats literally what your doing with anything that terrforms the land with Yozi charms: expanding the Yozi themselves into whatever thing your terraforming.

[golentan]

because, the Yozis ARE hell.

if you fill up the world with Malfeas essence for example, the essence starts making everything Malfean, until its literally Malfeas, because Malfeas and Malfeas essence are one and the same.

Your literally turning all of Creation into extensions of the Yozis. If Creation becomes hell? it becomes apart of the Yozis. it wouldn't be Creation but with Malfean flavor, it would be Malfeas in the shape of Creation by the time it is done.

think of it as Wyld-Shaping, only with Creation instead of the Wyld, and with the Yozis expanding themselves into whatever you Creation-Shape, because thats literally what your doing with anything that terrforms the land with Yozi charms: expanding the Yozi themselves into whatever thing your terraforming.

Except that if essence shaping creation worked like that, why can't the yozis hang out in yozi aspected manses in creation? Because they clearly cannot, and there have been yozi manses since the first age for them to move into, presumably including some with Elsewhere gates.

[Lord Raziere]

Except that if essence shaping creation worked like that, why can't the yozis hang out in yozi aspected manses in creation? Because they clearly cannot, and there have been yozi manses since the first age for them to move into, presumably including some with Elsewhere gates.

its not complete enough, you can't fit a big dragon or demon city into something small like a manse.

maybe your talking about their souls? there could be multiple reasons why they aren't there.

and I do not remember anything explicitly saying their souls cannot do just that.

[Hiro Protagonest]

and I do not remember anything explicitly saying their souls cannot do just that.

That... doesn't make sense. According to all logic and reasoning, unless the person who wrote it would say something completely stupid like "well you never asked", if it doesn't say they can, they can't. Such an important detail shouldn't be left out.

[Lord Raziere]

maybe to your thinking.

to my thinking, its the exact opposite: if nothing explicitly says they cannot, they can do that, cause its an RPG where we are supposed to be creative and fill in the blanks with potential plot hooks. I just don't get the "EVERYTHING must be detailed" mentality at work here.

[golentan]

its not complete enough, you can't fit a big dragon or demon city into something small like a manse.

maybe your talking about their souls? there could be multiple reasons why they aren't there.

and I do not remember anything explicitly saying their souls cannot do just that.

Malfeas is not just the Demon City, he's also the Brass Dancer. That jouten is big to be sure, but not more so than a warstrider IIRC. And when not Swallowing the Sun (I think that's the name of the shintai) Ebby can be any size and shape he wants within a fairly substantial range, of which human sized is included. And creation itself isn't large enough to hold the whole of malfeas, so he'd either need some pretty sever Primordial Liposuction Prana applications or to be traveling around folded in himself anyway but interacting with creation because he's not bound not to if he plans to really escape. So size clearly isn't the problem. And if it is a geomantic and essence problem, if a manse absolutely dripping in yozi essence isn't enough to justify a jouten hanging out outside of Malfeas, how on earth is Creation's essence going to be poisoned enough to let the imprisoned primordials go free?

Edit: Also, this is a case where the rule actually is spelled out that demons cannot leave malfeas without being summoned (whether by sorcery, thaumaturgy, or certain lucky coincidences), and there is no specific rule detailed which says "except in appropriately aspected manses." So we do have one rule that clearly says "no," no other rule that even hints at "yes," and I'm going to have to say that canon is against you Raz. Though such a manse is probably a bastion of cultists, akuma, and maybe a green sun prince, so chances are good demons are hanging there anyway.

[Hiro Protagonest]

maybe to your thinking.

to my thinking, its the exact opposite: if nothing explicitly says they cannot, they can do that, cause its an RPG where we are supposed to be creative and fill in the blanks with potential plot hooks. I just don't get the "EVERYTHING must be detailed" mentality at work here.

The fact that they didn't give the exact number of all the Dragon-Blooded in Lookshy, their names, their personalities, their loyalties, and their stats is different from the fact that they didn't put in a rather important detail that applies to every single demon ever.

It's like saying that if you break the cap of 20 on feats of strength, there's nothing saying you CAN'T lift up infinite weight.

[Qwertystop]

That... doesn't make sense. According to all logic and reasoning, unless the person who wrote it would say something completely stupid like "well you never asked", if it doesn't say they can, they can't. Such an important detail shouldn't be left out.

maybe to your thinking.

to my thinking, its the exact opposite: if nothing explicitly says they cannot, they can do that, cause its an RPG where we are supposed to be creative and fill in the blanks with potential plot hooks. I just don't get the "EVERYTHING must be detailed" mentality at work here.

While I would agree with Lord Raziere's view in most cases, I would tend to agree with Jade Dragon in this particular case. "In a Yozi-aspected Manse, any of the Yozis or their component souls might be there without being bound by any summoning Sorcery" is a pretty big thing to leave out.

[omegalith]

Except that if essence shaping creation worked like that, why can't the yozis hang out in yozi aspected manses in creation? Because they clearly cannot, and there have been yozi manses since the first age for them to move into, presumably including some with Elsewhere gates.

Currently, Yozi manses are an outpouring of Yozi essence into Gaia's largest Jouten.

If more than half of Gaia's body is corrupted with Yozi Dragon Lines and Demenses, that definition might begin to shift.

...The idea that fifty Exalts can enact a change on that scale when opposed by a huge number of entrenched Exalts and the entire hierarchy of divinity is somewhat absurd though.

[golentan]

Currently, Yozi manses are an outpouring of Yozi essence into Gaia's largest Jouten.

If more than half of Gaia's body is corrupted with Yozi Dragon Lines and Demenses, that definition might begin to shift.

...The idea that fifty Exalts can enact a change on that scale when opposed by a huge number of entrenched Exalts and the entire hierarchy of divinity is somewhat absurd though.

Creation is not Gaia. Gaia is not creation. Creation has nothing to do with the location of Gaia's Jouten. Gaia's essence was used in the creation of the elemental poles, and her souls were bound into those poles, but creation as a whole has a life separate and distinct from Gaia's power. If Gaia were to die and her souls to vanish, the power of the elemental poles would suffer, and maybe fail. It was this fear that led the gods to suborn Gaia before the rebellion, not the belief that creation would itself die if Gaia did because they were one and the same. Should her souls fall, Creation would become less stable, and the wyld or shadowlands might begin to expand and consume it, but even in the event of such destruction artificial methods could be used to stabilize it, such as the completely artificial and non-gaia related replacement pole located within Gethamane. The "Gaia Is Creation" myth is one of the more pernicious misunderstandings of the nature of the setting, and a personal pet peeve of mine.

[Story Time]

...but it's boring to always run the setting that way!

I haven't been able to run Creation like a lunch-box yet. Or a suit-case. Or a patch-work quilt. Or as a mega-complex engine for a colony ship.

I could try to run it like a small marble. But then the players would point fingers and say, "Spielberg!"

[Callista]

Got a question.

What happens if, in the standard Exalted setting, somebody causes a gigantic explosion of first-age energy, destroys about 90% of the Loom of Creation, and kills most of the pattern spiders?

Because... uh... we just did, and things are going nuts. The laws of nature don't seem to work anymore, and most of the mortals near the epicenter of the event are totally insane. The only person who's not currently horrified at the situation is the assassin with no Compassion score to speak of, and she's probably going to freak once the "destroy the world" angle gets through to her sociopathic little brain.

[Lord Raziere]

Well…..

canonically? you are now all vulnerable to the Wyld, and Shadowlands.
(Heck, I'd say Yozis too, but they are probably all facepalming right about now at your stupidity. I mean they went to so much trouble to design that thing and now you've gone and blown it up? Tsk tsk, just another long list of ungrateful acts against your creators added to the pile, might as well not bother escaping, Creation is going to be destroyed soon anyways, any Yozi want to play cosmic go fish?)

but seriously, The Wyld is coming, your likely to be eaten by a Grue, the Sidereals are probably stumped, or angry at you and quite justifiably want to kill you or in complete despair, The Lunars are probably rampaging throughout Creation in some anarchic end of days party, trying to live up life before the Wyld or the Void starts swallowing everything, the Dragon-Blooded are running and screaming, or similarly want to kill you, the Solars are probably trying to build or recover their reality engines as fast as they can, if they even know about those things, or of course, trying to kill you, the Abyssals are all applauding, the Death Lords are carving statues of you and are probably sending you invitations to their parties, the Ebon Dragon is laughing evilly while eating popcorn….chaos, and very likely the end of Creation by either Death Lords or even more probably the Wyld.

unless the Yozis see this as the perfect opportunity to send a message to Heaven: "Let us out, and we will remake the Loom of Fate in exchange for you letting us rule you for all eternity"

or you can just hope to the gods that Autocthonia shows up with its Loom of Fate 2.0 by sheer coincidence where you can then evacuate to Autocthonia.

but yeah, you screwed up, expect a lot of chaos, and no real good solution in sight.

[Callista]

Heh, yeah, we screwed up pretty bad, but honestly it was a lot of fun. One of the players (playing a scholar/diplomat who was the only one who really had a clue that what we were doing was dangerous) got to deliver the most epic rant I have ever heard. The Storyteller has been getting that evil look on his face--well, after he picked his jaw off the table, anyway.

What is interesting to me from what you are saying is that it seems like this would pit the Yozi, the Wyld, and the Deathlords/Primordials against each other. The Yozi might well try to take over, which the Deathlords won't like because if they do, things don't fall into the Void; the Wyld is probably going to be expanding, which neither of the other groups would like because you can neither destroy nor control total chaos; and the Deathlords want to destroy everything, which they can't do if somebody else is either ruling it or making it utterly unpredictable. Mortals caught in the middle as usual, of course, though how many of them will actually still be alive after this is anybody's guess.

[Lord Raziere]

Uh no its more like:

Death Lords are gonna take this opportunity to try and grab as much shadowland as possible from surrounding Creation. the Wyld is going to try to overrun as much Creation as possible. they are going to conflict.

The Yozis are still going to be in their cage. They just now have a plan that will actually work to get them out: extortion. "you guys let us out, we fix Creation, you let us rule forever" and if the Yozis get out? its auto win for them, cause the Death Lords while powerful, are no where near as powerful to take on almost every single Yozi and their demon armies, while the Wyld is not threat to Primordials at all because the Primordials are basically entire living universes of anti-wyld protection.

worse yet? the extortion plan will probably work, cause the gods won't want Creation to die, and are collectively a bunch of selfish power-grabbers who want to survive from disasters like this.

[omegalith]

Creation is not Gaia. Gaia is not creation. Creation has nothing to do with the location of Gaia's Jouten. Gaia's essence was used in the creation of the elemental poles, and her souls were bound into those poles, but creation as a whole has a life separate and distinct from Gaia's power. If Gaia were to die and her souls to vanish, the power of the elemental poles would suffer, and maybe fail. It was this fear that led the gods to suborn Gaia before the rebellion, not the belief that creation would itself die if Gaia did because they were one and the same. Should her souls fall, Creation would become less stable, and the wyld or shadowlands might begin to expand and consume it, but even in the event of such destruction artificial methods could be used to stabilize it, such as the completely artificial and non-gaia related replacement pole located within Gethamane. The "Gaia Is Creation" myth is one of the more pernicious misunderstandings of the nature of the setting, and a personal pet peeve of mine.

Well then, if Creation isn't a Gaia Jouten then corrupting it with Yozi essence until it doesn't qualify as hers anymore should be easier than if it was.

[Story Time]

Got a question.

What happens if, in the standard Exalted setting, somebody causes a gigantic explosion of first-age energy, destroys about 90% of the Loom of Creation, and kills most of the pattern spiders?

Hi, Callista!

Is the Scarlet Empress still around? The Realm Defense Grid could still function just as well as it did for the Balorian Crusade. May-be not all of it, but as long as some-one can get into the thing it could save some-thing of Creation.

Another option is a reality generator artifact. These things can stabilize even Deep Wyld into Creation-friendliness.

Honestly? I'd also take the opportunity to very carefully find a Wyld Folk ally. And by ally I mean, "carefully oath them into only helping the Party." This might be useful if any of the characters are vulnerable to mutation.

Jade-born are not vulnerable to mutation, incidentally. They are good at making artifacts. Helping them out could build some good relationships and yield useful tools.

My expectation is that any creature with enough sense, including People(s) of [Element] and Dragon Kings, who can sense this problem will now have vested interest in fleeing the Wyld and helping members of the Party.

Just some thoughts!

Well then, if Creation isn't a Gaia Jouten then corrupting it with Yozi essence until it doesn't qualify as hers anymore should be easier than if it was.

Wow! Some-one else who had that thought!

[aetherialDawn]

The Lunars are probably rampaging throughout Creation in some anarchic end of days party, trying to live up life before the Wyld or the Void starts swallowing everything,

This is absurd. Perhaps one of the VERY FEW things that Lunars have as an actual canon trait is stubbornness.

Lunars are already preparing to trek into the Wyld again, gathering all that they know about the moonsilver tattoos and hastily arranging a final meeting: Some will stay for Creation, some will abandon it, but few to, more likely, NONE are going to give up.



Also... There is a solution to the loss of the Loom.

If I recall correctly, all five Maidens working together are capable of spinning all of Fate, even without the Loom. Sidereals are almost certainly going to try and kill you, but not all of them - the rest will be performing cleanup as best they can, as they always have.

Now, since Creation has not actually disintegrated -yet- the Maidens are probably already spinning Fate. If you suspect they aren't, then you have a chance to start on redeeming this enormous screw-up: GO GET THEM OUT OF THE GAMES, no matter what it takes.

There's a good chance that the Neverborn will try to have you killed as well - so that they can tear up their current deathlords to offer YOU that power.

The Raksha are likely to take an interest in you; it will be schizophrenic, because Raksha.

The Yozis are going to flip out, because the Raksha can invade now, and bound as Yozis, without those of their number lost to the neverborn, without the fortress of Creation, there is a good chance that the Raksha will kill Creation, and then kill the YOZIS. Being Yozis, they will try to kill you, and the lives of demons will become more horrible as they are drafted for a last, defensive, maybe-hopeless war with Chaos.

Oddly enough, for everyone except you, demons probably become a lot less hostile, because the Yozis may well be using them to try and hold off the Raksha invasions. For you, no such luck: Summoned demons will be possessed by the Yozis, break their bonds, and try to murder you.

[Callista]

Is the Scarlet Empress still around? The Realm Defense Grid could still function just as well as it did for the Balorian Crusade. May-be not all of it, but as long as some-one can get into the thing it could save some-thing of Creation.

No, she is not. That's quite the interesting possibility, actually, and concerns two characters' Motivations to boot. I'm going to have to pitch that one to the others and see what they think.

Now, since Creation has not actually disintegrated -yet- the Maidens are probably already spinning Fate. If you suspect they aren't, then you have a chance to start on redeeming this enormous screw-up: GO GET THEM OUT OF THE GAMES, no matter what it takes.

We have a Sidereal in the party, though none of us in-character knows he is one... does that help any? Somehow, in a karma-houdini way, he's even managed to avoid getting himself eternally banished (or similar) despite having essentially invented a new severity level: When we tore Creation a new one, his own part of it got erased along with everything else in the vicinity.

So we actually have some breathing room until someone figures out we were even involved, which will happen pretty soon because even though there's a gigantic hole in reality, it's still entirely possible to extrapolate from the edges of the hole and figure out what must have been nearer the center. Namely, us and our total incompetence.

[lord pringle]

Got a question.

What happens if, in the standard Exalted setting, somebody causes a gigantic explosion of first-age energy, destroys about 90% of the Loom of Creation, and kills most of the pattern spiders?

Because... uh... we just did, and things are going nuts. The laws of nature don't seem to work anymore, and most of the mortals near the epicenter of the event are totally insane. The only person who's not currently horrified at the situation is the assassin with no Compassion score to speak of, and she's probably going to freak once the "destroy the world" angle gets through to her sociopathic little brain.

Uh... How?

[Callista]

As far as I can tell, we managed to detonate a First-age quasi-time machine that had been charging up for two thousand years, and had been meant to charge up for only a few days. I don't think it was actually a "time machine" in the sci-fi sense, but it was certainly a powerful device that was capable of manipulating causality in some fashion, or possibly as some sort of souped-up divination machine. I don't think the device's creators bargained on it collecting energy for a few thousand years more than it was supposed to, and they certainly didn't bargain on a Lunar turning into a bear and going to town on its containment barriers. We were at the time under attack, and didn't have time to research before bashing doors in. Turns out it wasn't a door so much as a pressure hatch... and the pressure had been building up for a long time. Thank goodness for perfect defenses.

[Tavar]

Good News: now the Maidens have to get more involved, as if they take the helm the Loom works much better.

Bad News: the Loom is something that keeps Creation stable. Destroying it means the Wyld is much more powerful now. Also, Fate Errors are more prevalent, but those aren't really detailed anywhere, so it's entirely the ST's call.

[meschlum]

Mesch, I challenge you to make an Infernal that isn't secretly or obviously (or otherwise) a fair folk

But that would go entirely against my idiom! Requiring positively devilish levels of loophole exploitation. Thus, my good f(r)iends, I have no choice but to present the following...

The Angel Wilderness

A perfectly innocent and harmless Raksha was visiting Creation when a gang of demon cultists captured it, and the utterly ordinary mortals it was traveling with. Since captivity was a novel experience, the mundane wanderers posed little resistance, and five dys later found themelves inside an interesting City. The Fair Folk and its retinue found participating in the first two chapters of the place rather gauche, so they slipped away through a convenient plot hole.

Still, the idea of endowing Creation-born with massive power and granting them dedicated worshippers was utterly fascinating, and promised to gather signfiicant amounts of fan support. Thus did the Raksha decide to create its own brand of Exalted, the Outfernals, by taking the original template and making it better.

To begin with, a vast, potentially infinite realm was called for. Thus was the Angel Wilderness born, a limitless open expanse whose residents were free to go wherever they wished. When night came, the ground glowed faintly red, but that was viewed as a feature rather than a bug. Within the Wilderness, promising mortals would be welcomed, celebrated, and allowed to do whatever they wished, with no compulsion or mistreatment.

Those who sought power could then be granted the aid of Angelic Guardians, creatures of the Angel Wilderness that would bond to their masters and provide support, succor, and loyal service at all times. These newly empowered Outfernals could thus learn to change their shapes, move things without touching them, move faster than the eye could follow, and much, much more.

The Angel Wilderness can touch all parts of Creation, but long lasting gates are uncommon, so the Outfernals - if they choose to return home in order to deal with any lingering issues - need to travel for as much as half an hour before they can emerge close to their desired destination. For some reason, Yu Shan and th Blessed Isle take a bit longer to reach, and dedicated Angels are constantly working on ways to correct this problem.

In the more remote sections of Creation, shamans and sorcerors have learned to tap the powers of the Angel Wilderness, calling forth its denizens to serve them. Which the Angels do loyally, cheerfully, and with full respect for the spirit of their instructions - though thus far all Angels called into Creation seek to harm mortals as little as possible. A warlock seeking to remove a troublesome lord might find the lord (and his family) sent into the Wilderness instead, where a full nation of dedicated and loyal servants awaits the lord's every desire.

Some of the best known entities that live in the Angel Wilderness are the Loud Stone, a ponderous being of stealth and health, the Finite Pond, an easily crossed and quite fertile expanse of water, and the Consequence of Anarchy, a strong supporter of free will that manifests as a cloud of tetrahedrons. They are led by Wuv, a noble and shining beast who full title is The White Unicorn Wuv, though its friends (everyone it meets) are encouraged to use an anacronym instead.

Mechanics: This is actually possible.

Angelic Guardians are simply Raksha under Assumption of the Person's Heart, while the Outfernals are attuned to the Hearts of their Angels, ensuring loyal service. They can convey the effects of their Charms to the Outfernals, allowing a wide variety of abilities.

The Angel Wilderness is a massive freehold (or Unshaped) with connections to multiple Chancels that are carefully concealed in Creation. This Chancel transport network allows access to much of Creation, and the attitude of the residents of the Wilderness is perfectly comprehensible - mortals are valuable to the Fair Folk, after all. If it's an Unshaped, the other beings (such as TWU Wuv) could be its Emanations, and therefore incapable of leaving the Angel Wilderness without utterly remaking themselves or significantly altering Creation so it becomes like the Wilderness. Reclamation time!


Sadly, that involves Yozi being secretly (and obviously) Fair Folk, so it probably doesn't qualify. Back to the drawing board...

Five Copper Snakes

Selecting a suitable Unwoven Coadjutor for the Infernal Exalted is a complex exercise - there are very few Infernal Exaltations, and countless demons. Fame, experience, and ability - as well as strength of will - would be the critical deciding factors. Sartelesh, a demon of some promise, sought to advance itself as rapidly as possible in order to become a Coadjutor, and found the perfect means to do so.

The Wyld.

Of course the Wyld is insanely dangerous to demon-kind, but it also offers opportunities beyond the imagination of the First Circle. Sartelesh was confident in its will and dedication to its makers, and so expected to gain much of the latter while avoiding the former altogether - and was very nearly correct. The demon that returned to Malfeas was Sartelesh in all practical respects, but a Sartelesh with numerous cultists, perfected will, and an unshakable dedication to seeing Creation reclaimed by its masters.

And thus, when the woman who would be reborn as Five Copper Snakes attracted an Infernal Exaltation, its was Sartelesh who was sent to seal the compact.

Five Copper Snakes was a person with truly uncanny compassion, able to care for even the most alien beings and mindsets. This served her well in the riotous celebrations of Hell upon her rebirth, for she accepted the urges of the Yozi without hesitation and was most active in dealing with mortal captives - rarely leaving anything behind for others to mistreat.

Tasked with removing the Realm's authority in the West, Five Copper Snakes set out with a will, seeking strange allies so as to keep her manipulations concealed from the eyes of Fate - or other sources. The powers of Malfeas have no complaints, for the islands and ships that serve the Realm are experiencing unaccounted trouble of late, vanishing or becoming rebellious without the slightest hint of Blasphemy. Some even suggest that Five Copper Snakes should be called back to become a mentor and guide for the new Infernal Exalts - and she does not object, though she mentions that the support fo her Coadjutor has been quite valuable.

What Hell has not been told is that Five Copper Snakes came into her rebirth knowing what would happen - for Sartelesh led her to the Angel Wilderness before claiming her, and there, under the influence of a Mindhealer Cube, she saw what abominations the first two chapeters contained. Prepared and supported by her Coadjutor, she emerged with her sanity if not intact, at least skewed otherwise. To her eyes, the Gods and Yozi are the same: treating the mortals she desperately cares for like so much fodder, elevating a few to higher rank and abusing them as much, if in different ways.

Only through the peace and empowerment of the Angel Wilderness can humanity be freed - and in so doing, the petty concerns of the gods and Yozi can also be served, for Five Copper Snakes is kind to friend and foe alike. Now, she poses as a newcomer to the Pearl Court, seeking to direct its mad meanderings so as to more fully restrain and direct the depredations of the Western Raksha.


Mechanics: This is, again, quite possible. Demons can be infected with the Wyld, and it makes them unique - which is an effective means of acquiring power and reputation, should one desire to become a coadjutor. The Angel Wilderness can, through cooperation with mortals, warp time to a remarkable extent, allowing an Infernal to be a chance at seeing its glory before they are claimed by the mess of the first few chapters. And high Compassion towards humanity means getting them the tools they need to be out from under the thumb of the gods and Yozi alike - synergy with Raksha is much preferable.

And so you have it. A Fair Folk that is secretly an Infernal, which meets the request - and might contribute to the discussion at hand.

[Exthalion]

How do we rationalize this with the fact that fate-is-a-scam? The idea has occurred to me that the Loom doesn't in fact do what it supposedly does. It is quite possible the Loom is a system of control that imposes its pattern upon Creation instead of maintaining the pattern of Creation.

If that is the case, then the damage to the Loom will instead give a fairly large number of extras and NPCs choice. Perhaps now Gem isn't going to blow up because the Loom is no longer there to keep nudging events in that direction.

Under this account, the Loom and Sidereal magic tied to it simply exerts extremely tiny effects on random or semi random events so as to bring about the "ordained" future. When essences users, who can throw around enough power that subtle nudging no longer works, muck things up the Sidereals are dispatched to perform larger scale nudging to keep Creation with the program.

Or I could be entirely wrong. That is always possible.

[Tavar]

How do we rationalize this with the fact that fate-is-a-scam? The idea has occurred to me that the Loom doesn't in fact do what it supposedly does. It is quite possible the Loom is a system of control that imposes its pattern upon Creation instead of maintaining the pattern of Creation.

Fate's a scam if you start from the precepts of the definition of Fate in the real world. In Creation, it's just a giant Cause And Effect manager, by which if you look at it from a large enough scale you can draw conclusions.

Look at the description for when Fate fails(can be found in the Sidereal Book). The normal Laws of Physics and Cause and Effect stop working, which can be disastrous for Humans.

[omegalith]

Look at the description for when Fate fails(can be found in the Sidereal Book). The normal Laws of Physics and Cause and Effect stop working, which can be disastrous for Humans.

That's a slightly poor way of putting it: Cause and effect isn't really something you can switch off, rather it's that causes stop having the effects you would generally expect them to have.

Anywho: The loom is basically a system for checking for, and to a lesser extent, fixing bugs... With the side effect of being able to prod non-magical targets towards specific outcomes.

[Callista]

That's a slightly poor way of putting it: Cause and effect isn't really something you can switch off, rather it's that causes stop having the effects you would generally expect them to have.

Yeah, but that's pretty critical, isn't it? I mean--that's why we can do science in the Real World, because causes have predictable effects. That's what lets us decide what to do based on what effects it will have. In a world like Exalted, where things are less predictable than that, wouldn't that mean that people had less control if cause-and-effect stopped working?

Anywho: The loom is basically a system for checking for, and to a lesser extent, fixing bugs... With the side effect of being able to prod non-magical targets towards specific outcomes.

So is the Loom more like the operating system of the universe (i.e., if destroyed, causality vanishes and nobody can make meaningful decisions because they won't have predictable results), or like a virus scanner (if destroyed, anybody can change reality, strongest will wins)? Or like something else altogether?