General Exalted Discussion Thread XI: Great Job, You Broke the Scale.

[omegalith]

Yeah, but that's pretty critical, isn't it? I mean--that's why we can do science in the Real World, because causes have predictable effects. That's what lets us decide what to do based on what effects it will have.

You can still do Science in a realm of pure chaos, it'll just end up looking like some insanely complex form of macro scale Quantum Physics. You'd have a hell of a time building up the infrastructure needed to analyze things properly of course.

In a world like Exalted, where things are less predictable than that, wouldn't that mean that people had less control if cause-and-effect stopped working?

Very high Essence people would be fine, it's just the people who can't enforce their will onto nearly every aspect of their immediate surroundings who'd struggle.

So is the Loom more like the operating system of the universe (i.e., if destroyed, causality vanishes and nobody can make meaningful decisions because they won't have predictable results), or like a virus scanner (if destroyed, anybody can change reality, strongest will wins)? Or like something else altogether?

Closer to the second.

Put it this way: Isidoros wanted Creation to have no fate whatsoever, whilst She Who Lives in Her Name wanted no free will whatsoever. They ended up compromising, but apparently they could have made things work either way if one of them had won the argument.

[Tavar]

That's a slightly poor way of putting it: Cause and effect isn't really something you can switch off, rather it's that causes stop having the effects you would generally expect them to have.

If a given action has no predictable outcome, then there isn't a clear cause and effect relationship. Without the Loom, no action has a predicable outcome, therefore their is no clear cause and effect relationship, therefore there is no Cause and Effect.



I'd generally say that, the way it's presented, it's the operating system: it doesn't fix bugs, and in fact whole orders of beings are devoted to fixing bugs with the system(Maidens, Pattern Spiders, Sidereals, the Maiden's special subordinates, etc).

[Exthalion]

What about creatures that are outside of fate then? Alchemicals and Infernals have neither their patron nor the loom making sure they don't fall through a rock into Gem.

Also, there are charms which enforce Cause/Effect relationships without the looms direct intervention. I doubt every time a Solar uses CRP that the spiders now have to take up that little bit of reality, but cause and effect still hold there because they are part of Creation's laws.

[aetherialDawn]

First-age quasi-time machine

. . .
You appear to have activated a time-based weapon. You may have heard of the "Time of Cascading Years" - when such weapons were used to the extent that it is impossible to determine proper causality of that 'time', if it can be called a time.

Congratulations! There's just about nothing you could have possibly done to screw up the setting more than using that on the Loom.


As for fixing it: You're going to need to call in some help.
The Maidens might be able to fix it.
Luna might be able to make sense of it.
Sol is pretty much useless for something this esoteric, although he could apply a lot of successes to something that doesn't care about his successes?

So that's Yu-Shan.

If you WANT to turn Creation into wyld-tainted land, an Unshaped could probably conquer the chaos and impose a new order on it. Of course, you'd be letting an Unshaped redefine causality to its own whims... Still, better than nothing.

So that's the Wyld.

The Neverborn are useless. The Deathlords are useless. BUT, the underworld is not - you see, there is an UNDERWORLD Loom-equivalent. If you don't mind opening a shadowland large enough to accommodate that, then you could possibly use the Underworld-reflection of the Loom. It has probably acquired a lot of new reality from the Loom's recent destruction.

So that's the Underworld.

As for the Yozis... Firstly, She Who Lives in Her Name suggested Fate in the first place. If you can, somehow, convince her, then she might be able to help. She offered to help once before, if I recall correctly...
More usefully, the Yozis were the original targets of Solar time-warping weapons, AND they themselves used similar weapons. Unlike the Solars involved, the Yozis are still around, so they may actually have an idea of what you've done.

So that's the Demon City.

And finally, Autochthon has Loom 2.0. Breach the seal, waken Autochthon, give him the resources, and he would probably be able to replace the Loom - and with less danger than attempting to replace it with an Unshaped or the Underworld-Loom.

So that's Autochthonia.

(The Realm Defense Grid has already been mentioned; it will hold the worst repercussions of this at bay, if it is active, but it cannot fix the problem. Probably.)


A note on Outside Fate: the snarling of fate around Outside Fate beings actually can cause glitches like people drowning despite having taken the path that DIDN'T lead to them crashing into a lake, etc.
Causality still works, it's just corrupted, like how a video game can have glitches without actually crashing.

[omegalith]

If a given action has no predictable outcome, then there isn't a clear cause and effect relationship. Without the Loom, no action has a predicable outcome, therefore their is no clear cause and effect relationship, therefore there is no Cause and Effect.

You're confusing physical laws with cause and effect here: In Creation, what the motes making up everything do when they interact is strictly limited by the local laws, particularly the Elemental Poles, with the Loom monitoring glitches that slip through the imperfect system.

What you basically get without Creation, or any other non-Wyld realm's laws being affirmed is increasingly large chances of macro-scale equivalents to quantum scale "random" events, due to the interactions of energy being considerably less controlled.

I'd generally say that, the way it's presented, it's the operating system: it doesn't fix bugs, and in fact whole orders of beings are devoted to fixing bugs with the system(Maidens, Pattern Spiders, Sidereals, the Maiden's special subordinates, etc).

I'd more or less count the Pattern Spiders as part of the Loom's basic functions: They're inside the machine and handling most of the actual weaving.

And the Operating System analogy doesn't work at all: A computer with a broken Operating System isn't going to do anything. Creation still runs just fine without the loom, the difference is that there's nothing scanning for bugs.

[Tavar]

Alchemicals have the Loom 2.0 that Autochthon designed.

The Yozi seem to have something similar going for them: the best bet is that a Primordial's nature enforces Causality.

Note that the Loom is pretty explicitly linked to Causality in several places. In addition, You can have other methods to enforce Causality(such as Primordials), but you seem to need a source. The Loom was created so that the Primordials didn't have to do the work of maintaining Causality in Creation.

Solars can also enforce it, though it's largely temporary and small scale in nature unless they use other means to stabilize it(artifice, tying it into Creation's network, etc).

[Sanguine]

For Infernals, and Primordials, I always think of the line in Sidereals about Noble Raksha: "[They] are laws unto themselves." Which basically means, they enforce there own Causality upon Creation.

[Callista]

The Neverborn are useless. The Deathlords are useless. BUT, the underworld is not - you see, there is an UNDERWORLD Loom-equivalent. If you don't mind opening a shadowland large enough to accommodate that, then you could possibly use the Underworld-reflection of the Loom. It has probably acquired a lot of new reality from the Loom's recent destruction.

I never knew they had a Loom of their own down there, but it makes sense, considering they have their own stars and astrology based on them. Does that mean that the Neverborn, Deathlords, and Abyssals, as well as the denizens of the Underworld in general, are still operating under business as usual? I was under the impression that Creation had to be destroyed first before the underworld could collapse into the void. If that's the case, does that mean the deathlords suddenly have a lot more power, simply because they have access to a place where causality still works? Do the Yozis have the same advantage?

[Sanguine]

Yes, both the Underworld and Malfeas should have working Causality.

Also the Underworld Loom is called The Calender of Setesh. Just thought I'd let you know.

[aetherialDawn]

I never knew they had a Loom of their own down there, but it makes sense, considering they have their own stars and astrology based on them. Does that mean that the Neverborn, Deathlords, and Abyssals, as well as the denizens of the Underworld in general, are still operating under business as usual? I was under the impression that Creation had to be destroyed first before the underworld could collapse into the void. If that's the case, does that mean the deathlords suddenly have a lot more power, simply because they have access to a place where causality still works? Do the Yozis have the same advantage?

The Calendar of Setesh (as Sanguine reminds us!) probably either became massively more powerful (the Ghost-Loom fuses with it) or else has been exploded as well (the Underworld mirrors Creation...)

[Lord Raziere]

I'd say both: the Calendar of Setesh explodes but then its replaced by a Ghost-Loom, thus actually improving the Underworld's fate system.

[omegalith]

I'd say both: the Calendar of Setesh explodes

Neverborn: "Yay!"

but then its replaced by a Ghost-Loom, thus actually improving the Underworld's fate system.

Neverborn: "Boo!"

[Qwertystop]

This just reminded me of one of the best lines from MoEP: Sidereals:

"ensure that up remains up instead of down, sideways, or purple"

That should tell you just how important the stuff is that you just broke. Have fun with that!

(How would "up" becoming "purple" even work?)

[golentan]

This just reminded me of one of the best lines from MoEP: Sidereals:

"ensure that up remains up instead of down, sideways, or purple"

That should tell you just how important the stuff is that you just broke. Have fun with that!

(How would "up" becoming "purple" even work?)

If you try to look up all you see is a suffusion of purple and there is no noticeable "movement" because up is no longer a direction, but a color.

[Callista]

If you try to look up all you see is a suffusion of purple and there is no noticeable "movement" because up is no longer a direction, but a color.

And, let me guess--you have no idea this is at all out of the ordinary, because as far as you are concerned, up has always been purple?

Wow. Uhm. I think we broke the world.

[Kobold-Bard]

...

Wow. Uhm. I think we broke the world.

Pretty much.

Without the Loom Divine censure should be much less prolific too, meaning over-ambitious Gods are going to try and boost their reputation.

Minor Gods of individual roads or villages may trap people in an endless loop unless they pay a worship toll to get out. Lesser Gods might just be defiant out of spite and let the field they're in charge of grow glass instead of grass or randomly changing the colour and type of wood that their house is made of. Unemployed Gods might even murder existing Gods to replace them, the Celestial version of mundane looting during a blackout.

Greater Gods may be more extreme. IIRC the head of the Bureau of Nature wants to weaponise the weather to deal with threats of some kind, and without the Loom he might get away with it.

[Rikandur Azebol]

Kudos, Callista. You broke the world ... now do something else.

[Rockphed]

Greater Gods may be more extreme. IIRC the head of the Bureau of Nature wants to weaponise the weather to deal with threats of some kind, and without the Loom he might get away with it.

So we can expect biting winds, with actual teeth?

[Doran]

Would booting up the reality engine in Geth in the north help Callista?

[Exthalion]

Would booting up the reality engine in Geth in the north help Callista?

It depends entirely on how much the ST wants to make life difficult. In one sense, all that would do is create a quasi-pole of Earth which would shift the metaphysical center of Creation somewhere north of Meru. As Meru seems to not be doing much at the moment for purposes of making Creation not behave like the Wyld another wouldn't really help.

On the other hand, Earth is the element of stability and Solars appear to be able to make stuff that doesn't need the Loom to work in the Wyld. Directional Titans and Pure Chaos research facilities would seem to require something of the sort.

While on the topic, manses with the outside fate power should be working fine. They appear to have their own causality enforcer since Fate isn't present. This being the case, some sort of modification of that might mitigate this problem. Say capping the Pole of Earth with an N/A manse of Fate [Utility Partition] for example. Or building a lot of extended zone of influence manses.

[Doran]

I was thinking something more among the lines of reprogramming the reality engine at Geth to act as a temporary Loom, and then linking it within Meru.

Another possibility is finding out how the Loom was moved from the Blessed Isle to Yu Shan, and using the same procedure to move the Calendar from the loom, use the ghost to build a template new loom.

Also I guess they could find if there is a beta of the Loom powered down somewhere within Yu Shan - the primordials may have had some backup defences if the Raksha damaged it.

Maybe the Sun's weapons could be used to cauterize the Wyld around creation?

On the bright side, this should be enough to drag the Incarnae away from their drug habit for a bit.

Is it Kukla time?

[Drascin]

And, let me guess--you have no idea this is at all out of the ordinary, because as far as you are concerned, up has always been purple?

Wow. Uhm. I think we broke the world.

Yep. Also, it's "purple" now, but it might be "before" tomorrow, and "lilies" the next day. Unpredictability is the name of the game, here. Basically, you know when a videogame glitches and starts acting all weird? You basically turned Creation into the Minus Zone. Watch out for randomly spawning Goombas, or clipping through the ground polygons and ending up in the Not-Underdark.

Still, as people have mentioned, not all is lost! The Maidens can keep stuff working if you can break them from the Xbox (most Sidereals would likely be willing to help you there. Just don't mention you were the ones to break it in the first place), and then if you can find Autochthon he actually made a better version of the Loom before going to sleep so he can probably make a Loom 3.0 if you ask him very politely.

Pretty much.

Without the Loom Divine censure should be much less prolific too, meaning over-ambitious Gods are going to try and boost their reputation.

Minor Gods of individual roads or villages may trap people in an endless loop unless they pay a worship toll to get out. Lesser Gods might just be defiant out of spite and let the field they're in charge of grow glass instead of grass or randomly changing the colour and type of wood that their house is made of. Unemployed Gods might even murder existing Gods to replace them, the Celestial version of mundane looting during a blackout.

Greater Gods may be more extreme. IIRC the head of the Bureau of Nature wants to weaponise the weather to deal with threats of some kind, and without the Loom he might get away with it.

There is also this.

Kejak publicly executing some transgressors and turning them into starmetal teapots in front of everyone (he seems the type to go Roman Dictator and make use of the fact he's heading the most powerful division in the whole of Heaven to tryand keep order as much as possible) might keep the big crimes from happening for a while... but it's going to go downhill real fast once the gods start noticing that tracking them is a lot harder now.

So yeah. No pressure or anything, but I'd suggest haste.

[omegalith]

Claiming that up can be purple is somewhat asinine: An event doesn't need to appear to make sense, but if it isn't self-consistent once you plow through all the weirdness and complexity it isn't going to be able to exist.

A realm of chaos can have non-linear time, space that warps into strange loops and entities that defy all explanation due to not fitting into any frame of reference you can fully comprehend. It can have two competing areas of physical laws that clash violently where they meet, creating strange anomalies. It can have sideways gravity, oceans of freezing cold liquid stone or areas that flicker in and out of existence like a faulty lightbulb. It can spawn a pocket dimension so small that reaching forwards lets you touch the back of your head.

But if you find yourself thinking that a colour is a direction, that's more a sign that your mind is either failing or being tampered with than it is something that could actually happen.

[Lix Lorn]

Kejak publicly executing some transgressors and turning them into starmetal teapots in front of everyone (he seems the type to go Roman Dictator and make use of the fact he's heading the most powerful division in the whole of Heaven to tryand keep order as much as possible) might keep the big crimes from happening for a while... but it's going to go downhill real fast once the gods start noticing that tracking them is a lot harder now.

So yeah. No pressure or anything, but I'd suggest haste.

Kejak would be a very good dictator, to be fair.

Claiming that up can be purple is somewhat asinine: An event doesn't need to appear to make sense, but if it isn't self-consistent once you plow through all the weirdness and complexity it isn't going to be able to exist.

A realm of chaos can have non-linear time, space that warps into strange loops and entities that defy all explanation due to not fitting into any frame of reference you can fully comprehend. It can have two competing areas of physical laws that clash violently where they meet, creating strange anomalies. It can have sideways gravity, oceans of freezing cold liquid stone or areas that flicker in and out of existence like a faulty lightbulb. It can spawn a pocket dimension so small that reaching forwards lets you touch the back of your head.

But if you find yourself thinking that a colour is a direction, that's more a sign that your mind is either failing or being tampered with than it is something that could actually happen.

You seem to underestimate the phrase 'Physics no longer works properly.'

[Tavar]

Claiming that up can be purple is somewhat asinine: An event doesn't need to appear to make sense, but if it isn't self-consistent once you plow through all the weirdness and complexity it isn't going to be able to exist.

....

The point of the Wyld, specifically the Deep Chaos and such that is the actual Wyld, is that it isn't self consistent. That's the whole reason the Fair Folk don't like Creation, because it imposes consistency.

[omegalith]

You seem to underestimate the phrase 'Physics no longer works properly.'

You seem to overestimate what the word "Physics" means.

A physical law places restrictions such as "Large objects draw other objects towards themselves" or "Light cannot exceed 299792458 m/s, and matter requires functionally infinite energy to accelerate to that speed".

Breaking, ignoring or supplanting a physical law doesn't result in utterly meaningless nonsense, merely bypassing whatever principle has been established.

You cannot make 1+1 equal 3, and you cannot pick a colour as a direction to travel in. This isn't a matter of whether it's possible or not, it's a matter of there not being enough self-consistency for the situation to persist. If you were a powerful entity who wanted to enforce such a state, you'd either have to fake it, or reality would crash entirely from the introduction of an irreconcilable error.

[Tavar]

You cannot make 1+1 equal 3, and you cannot pick a colour as a direction to travel in. This isn't a matter of whether it's possible or not, it's a matter of there not being enough self-consistency for the situation to persist. If you were a powerful entity who wanted to enforce such a state, you'd either have to fake it, or reality would crash entirely from the introduction of an irreconcilable error.

Except the Wyld can pretty explicitly do this, because it is not self consistent.

[omegalith]

....

The point of the Wyld, specifically the Deep Chaos and such that is the actual Wyld, is that it isn't self consistent. That's the whole reason the Fair Folk don't like Creation, because it imposes consistency.

You're confusing superficial consistency with fundamental consistency of individual events.

The Wyld has no rules, laws or principles whatsoever, but that still doesn't mean it can do something that literally doesn't make enough sense to happen. This isn't really a particularly genuine restriction, it just means that if you want up to be purple, you'd have to create extremely arbitrary and deliberate conditions to enforce that impression.

You could, for example, create a region of "only down" in the same way that time is generally in a state of "only forwards". You could then impose a second condition that anyone trying to perceive "up" would, instead of failing entirely as with attempts to look backwards in time, gain a strong impression of the colour purple.

The latter condition would be a mental impression rather than an actual direction though.

[omegalith]

Except the Wyld can pretty explicitly do this, because it is not self consistent.

This is a claim rather than an argument. You can't really argue for irrationality, because arguments are inherently formed from rationality.

Irrationality isn't something that fundamentally exists, it's just an impression gained from an inability to grasp a degree of complexity.

[Tavar]

Ah, I failed to realize I was discussing this with a developer in charge of re-writing the mechanics/an expert in the natural Laws of the Exalted world.