General Exalted Discussion Thread XI: Great Job, You Broke the Scale.

[Lix Lorn]

I like how TED keeps being put apart. Yes, he's a bastard, but if you are really excusing the other primordials because you can lobotomize them into non-hostile figures, then you have to do the same for him.

The difference is the extent of the change. If you mess with Malfeas until he is The Emperor With Invisible Clothes, he is a caricatured fool with no underwear, but he is still a ruler. He still bears SOME resemblance to his original self. Adorjan can become a lover, swilin and cece barely need changing, but Ebby is defined as the blackest of black. If you change him to the point where he is no longer an enemy to all you value, he is no longer in any way himself. With the other examples I give, they're only themselves in the very loosest of definitions, but an Ebon Dragon who is not hated by all and without whom the world would not be better is no longer the ebon dragon. At all.

[Tavar]

Actually, he's mostly defined by opposition, which is not a negative quality. Well, that and a lack of virtue, but virtue in Exalted is not a positive quality.

[Rockphed]

More along the lines of what I meant was that if they are not in control of their actions, and that this is a permanent state, then logic would lead one to believe that they need to be restrained. The fact that the methods used to restrain them are in some ways horrible doesn't change that fact.

In the modern era, we do not typically forgo prison sentences just because someone is insane. Instead we put them in a different type of prison. A prison with no weaker walls or implacable guards. Sure, we attempt to treat these people, and sometimes we are merciful when the treatment is successful, but a mental ward is no less a prison than Alcatraz.

[golentan]

Furthermore, if they are not Moral beings, then how can one state that they are more moral than others?

Their inability to interact with moral systems as I understand them voluntarily does not preclude them from having moral weight. They, by virtue of their natures and limitations, can't reasonably be held to the same standards as human beings, but simply by virtue of being people they have moral weight and what a human being does to them reflects on that human's moral character. Obviously they are dangerous, and any attempt to deal with them has to recognize that practical fact. This is a very personal issue to me based on what I have seen in my life. You can't force those who are fundamentally different to fit into your framework, because that causes injustice. But you can't justify your own atrocities with the fact that they are fundamentally different.

[Rikandur Azebol]

I agree on the part where Ebby isn't evil, as evil is nonexistent quality in Exalted. Everything there is gray in the morality area. The only truth there is "Might makes right".

And I think there are mistakes of interpretation in the role for humans in the Exaltverse. They were not prayer-batteries. They were alarm system, thus designed to be easily afraid of pretty much anything. That gods use them as shortcut to power is a new thing, since Primordials didn't tolerated gods lazing around and having stupid ideas.

Xefas is right about the horror of what Exalted did with the Primordials by transforming them into Yozis. And no, in case of Titans it isn't just a political term but actual physical change of state. It's like Shaped and Unshaped Fair Folk, difference is profound.

Yozis are in eternal suffering because they were made into caricatures who can dimly recall the wrong done to them. But what what they did to Yozis is small bunny when compared with the Neverborn, who aren't merely suffering but are tormented and totally broken.

And please don't start on me with the "Exalted were fighting to defend humans" as it were Exalted who devised ways to DESTROY SOULS. FOREVER.
It was Exalted who committed the greatest genocides in Exaltverse, asides from the Unconquered Sun when he blew up Cemunian's Creation-copy.
It was Exalted who ruined humanity's chances at immortality by breaking Lethe and not fixing the damage they caused.
It was Exalted who made Raksha more hostile by raiding Wyld and abusing it for petty gain.
It was Exalted who tortured Primordials who surrendered.
It was Exalted who genocided every single other mortal race on the surface of Creation with the sole exception of Dragon Kings and Children of Andamant.
It was Exalted who cursed their own allies, the Children of Andamant, into what they are today ... the Jadeborn, enslaved from birth to death by Great Geas.

The true "villain" of the setting isn't Ebon Dragon. It's Autochton who is responsible for the most dangerous weapons of the Exaltverse ... the Exaltations. Without those Sol wouldn't commit his greatest betrayal, because he not only betrayed Holy Tyrant* but also the Creation he once wanted to protect. Now he just wants his "fix".

Unless it was all like Ebon Dragon planned all along ... but nothing seems to indicate him being anything near like Sachaverell.

And yes, Xefas is right when claiming that suffering of the makers of the world is making all other bad stuff in the setting insignificant. And yes the Primordials are more important in Exaltverse than humans ... because unlike in our world, there are beings that are essential for Creation's existence ... and humans are not among them. Not even Exalted, correction especially not Exalted. Primordials are important.

Another person rise the argument that Primordials were in the wrong when making living things into tools. That person probably doesn't know that EVERYTHING in Creation have soul.
Except Raksha, but these aren't of Creation ... merely shaped by it's existence.
Except Underworld, but that place is an abomination.

*-And I do believe that Tyrant in regards of Theion is used in the old Greek meaning of the word, not modern meaning as "cruel villain who rules", but I can be wrong.

[Amechra]

You know, soul surgery is only necessary if you don't have a way into the Primordial's charm set.

Now, if only there were a number of people, let's say 50 or so, who had access to a Primordial charm set and could make custom charms...

After all, Primordials are their charmset. So if you designed a massive number of charms for Malfeas that emphasized a more benevolent style of leadership, Malfeas would become more benevolent.

Hell, Cecylene is the easiest one to apply this to; after all, you just need to restore her faith in justice (perhaps some charms to "fix" local codes of law?), and tweak what she believes to be just.

Oh, and how heretical would it be to design a General Yozi Charm that allowed Yozi to view things from a human-ish point of view, and at what level of Essence would it come into play?

[Tavar]

You can't force those who are fundamentally different to fit into your framework, because that causes injustice. But you can't justify your own atrocities with the fact that they are fundamentally different.

Yet your justifications lacks something: should one permit others to preform atrocities because they are different? Your answer seems to be yes, but I am not sure if I can agree with you.

I say this because you repeatedly mention being opposed to the only method keeping them from commuting atrocities, though it is not sufficient.

The fact that you also support commuting attrocities in the name of helping them does not escape my mind.

[omegalith]

She Who Lives Within Her Name? Autism.

Not particularly.

See, look at her charmset: She has a charm that gives her a 6 in each virtue. She's not emotionless, or lacking in compassion: She's actually superhumanly compassionate... Yet considers considering the needs of any single person a hideous waste of resources when she could be considering the needs of everyone. Superhuman Temperance making her suborn her own needs for the perceived need of the collective. Superhuman Valor ensuring She is unflinching in her duty. She also has superhuman Conviction that her ideas are right though, and knows everyone will be happier if she steals their ability to be sad.

Autism is generally characterized by intense focus on areas of knowledge to the exclusion of all else combined with an inability to comprehend social conventions.

[Friv]

I'm going to have to go and dig up quotes, I suspect, but the Yozi have been explicitly stated to be only politically different from Primordials in the past. The difference is not the same as Shaped and Unshaped, and I don't think it was ever meant to be. If you can find a quote that says it is which is from anything other than Ch. 1 of Infernals, I would like to see it.

And on that note - the only physical changes made to the Yozi soul hierarchies were originally meant to be the minimum required to reshape them into Hell. Late in 2e, every Yozi started getting vast transformations, but that wasn't the state of things for a long time. Several writeups specifically said that they had the power to make Hell into something that was relatively nice, but they refused out of spite and bitterness to allow their subsidiary souls to have that kind of comfort.

It's a tricky area, like many areas, because there was no tight control of the line for a long time and all sorts of writers put down all sorts of things that were all sorts of contradictory. But the general gist was always, "The Yozi made Hell."

Now, the Neverborn, that was horrifying. But the Exalted didn't realize how horrifying until much later, and by the time they were kicking over that particular hornet's nest they were well on the way to needing to be put down themselves.

[Kobold-Bard]

You know, soul surgery is only necessary if you don't have a way into the Primordial's charm set.

Now, if only there were a number of people, let's say 50 or so, who had access to a Primordial charm set and could make custom charms...

After all, Primordials are their charmset. So if you designed a massive number of charms for Malfeas that emphasized a more benevolent style of leadership, Malfeas would become more benevolent.

Hell, Cecylene is the easiest one to apply this to; after all, you just need to restore her faith in justice (perhaps some charms to "fix" local codes of law?), and tweak what she believes to be just.

And all it takes is for one loyalist to come up with Tyranny Without End for Malfeas, or to develop Law As Rubicun III for Celeyne, and all that hard work making them nice goes down the drain.

I'm going to have to go and dig up quotes, I suspect, but the Yozi have been explicitly stated to be only politically different from Primordials in the past. The difference is not the same as Shaped and Unshaped, and I don't think it was ever meant to be. If you can find a quote that says it is which is from anything other than Ch. 1 of Infernals, I would like to see it.

...

Not much help, but it's in someone's sig on the Exalted forum (with a backlink to the appropriate post I believe), not sure who off hand.

Edit: It can be seen here, it was said by The Demented One. I have no idea whether he was working on Exalted at the time or not, nor what authority he has on things like that if he was working with them though.

[golentan]

Yet your justifications lacks something: should one permit others to preform atrocities because they are different? Your answer seems to be yes, but I am not sure if I can agree with you.

I say this because you repeatedly mention being opposed to the only method keeping them from commuting atrocities, though it is not sufficient.

The fact that you also support commuting attrocities in the name of helping them does not escape my mind.

No. I advocate doing the least harmful thing necessary to restrain them from harming others. And I have the whole time. I think they are dangerous. I think they should not be allowed to kick over other people's sandcastles just because they are dangerous or because they are alien. I think the method used to restrain them was neither the only available method or even a particularly good one. And I don't favor committing atrocities in the name of helping them, my point that you seem to be referencing was that if the exalted had already decided to perform soul-surgery there were better ways to do it with potentially better outcomes. Right and wrong are a continuum, and the exalted chose an option that was well towards the "wrong" end of it when a very similar option might have been slightly less wrong and had a better outcome for everyone. Why is this so hard to understand?

[Tavar]

Probably the part where your other methods seem either infeasible(the yozi are contained in hell partially because, as a prison, it contains them, thus letting them roam free is not a solution) or completely counter to the poiilnt of the war(we won. Ok, now lets let the primordials do what they want to us).

The Obed alternative, soul surgery, is an inexact and incredibly dangerous thing: the Egon Dragon got more powerful, after all. This is inaddition to the fact it is equivalent both to murderer and memory re-writing. Something most people seem much less inclined to rather than simply imprisonment.

[Sanguine]

Probably the part where your other methods seem either infeasible(the yozi are contained in hell partially because, as a prison, it contains them, thus letting them roam free is not a solution) or completely counter to the poiilnt of the war(we won. Ok, now lets let the primordials do what they want to us).

The Obed alternative, soul surgery, is an inexact and incredibly dangerous thing: the Egon Dragon got more powerful, after all. This is inaddition to the fact it is equivalent both to murderer and memory re-writing. Something most people seem much less inclined to rather than simply imprisonment.

I think Golentan's point was that they did Soul Surgery on them anyway, so it would have been less awful, though still fairly awful, if they had used it as a means of rehabilitation rather than punishment.

[omegalith]

And, in that way, the Yozi eclipse the rest of the setting. For me. Not even touching on the whole "they're the biggest threat so they invalidate all stories about threats" currently making the rounds in the Vitriolic Echo Chamber of Sychophantic Inanity that is... parts of the White Wolf Exalted Forum

Yeah, I really don't get this point. They're the all-encompassing threat if you run a successful reclamation story in your game, but otherwise merely being the biggest enemy doesn't make the other enemies useless.

No one stops running games about Mind Flayers, Beholders, Dragons and Drow just because the Nine Hells and the Abyss are bigger threats.

Also, I freely admit to being biased against Ebby, and am aware of the hypocrisy that my loathing for him carries.

I actually like him: He's basically an Internet Troll's online persona... Only without the actual person behind it with redeeming characteristics and other things in his life beyond using a keyboard to annoy people.

I agree on the part where Ebby isn't evil, as evil is nonexistent quality in Exalted.

Nonsense: Evil is inflicting harm on others for personal benefit. Oh sure, you can argue all kinds of complex situational modifiers and subjective perspectives and so forth, but the base definitions aren't rocket science: Hurt people bad, help people good. Practically everyone noteworthy is evil to some degree in Exalted. That's why it's a morally grey setting.

Of course, equating morals to what is right and wrong for a person to do isn't actually necessary. Even ignoring the option of using complexity of specific situations as justification, you can very easily argue that your actions fit a sensible agenda that has nothing to do with morals.

[Tavar]

They used extremely minor soul surgery, with supposedly few changes to many. And even that had huge unforeseen effects. For stuff like he's talking about, you would seem to either need third circle or even fetich soul deaths.

[The_Snark]

The difference is the extent of the change. If you mess with Malfeas until he is The Emperor With Invisible Clothes, he is a caricatured fool with no underwear, but he is still a ruler. He still bears SOME resemblance to his original self. Adorjan can become a lover, swilin and cece barely need changing, but Ebby is defined as the blackest of black. If you change him to the point where he is no longer an enemy to all you value, he is no longer in any way himself. With the other examples I give, they're only themselves in the very loosest of definitions, but an Ebon Dragon who is not hated by all and without whom the world would not be better is no longer the ebon dragon. At all.

I don't know; I've always imagined the Dragon's Shadow—who is not the Ebon Dragon, but close—to be a trickster-figure akin to the Coyote of some* Native American stories. Messing with people is still basically his reason for existence, and he's capable of doing very unpleasant things, but the overall feeling is one of good fun rather than spite. He doesn't screw you over out of malice; he screws you over because he thought it would be funny!

I don't know that this view is really supported by canon, but as far as I know it's not really contradicted either, and I happen to like it.

*Coyote turns up in a lot of Native American cultures; depending on which one you look at, he may be completely different.

[Exthalion]

There is the fact that they had to act quickly because the Yozi might not have stayed down if they had tried that route. The Gunstar took forever to modify and the Aftershock Titan wasn't exactly an overnight thing.

Also, can we stop assuming that the Yozi have some sort of a priori blank check to do whatever they want? When they created sentient beings they because like parents in a sense. They were exceptionally abusive parents.

Autochthon destroyed all of the nameless ones. What makes anyone think that he, who is far from the most vicious, was the first and only to do that? Thing about how many species were destroyed in the games of worlds and kings. The Yozi destroyed the Dragon King souls. She Who Lives burned away 90% of Creation out of spite. Can you imagine how many living things and sentient gods that destroyed?

Also, while it might not have started out that way, the essential character of the war did change after it started. Human are no longer the fear batteries, they are all potential sources of the Titan killing weapons. If the Yozi were destroying the Dragon kings who were significantly lesser threats then the Exalted what do you suppose they were doing to unprotected humans?

The Primordial War was akin to two African warlords who both use child soldiers and who mutilate the villagers in the enemy territory to deny them more soldiers or workers. The fact that one was there first does not make them any more deserving. They both do terrible, terrible things. The difference is that the winning side let the others live instead of imprisoning them and then tried to make things better for the little people. (Which wasn't perfect for various reasons, but at least they tried.)

[golentan]

Probably the part where your other methods seem either infeasible(the yozi are contained in hell partially because, as a prison, it contains them, thus letting them roam free is not a solution) or completely counter to the poiilnt of the war(we won. Ok, now lets let the primordials do what they want to us).

The Obed alternative, soul surgery, is an inexact and incredibly dangerous thing: the Egon Dragon got more powerful, after all. This is inaddition to the fact it is equivalent both to murderer and memory re-writing. Something most people seem much less inclined to rather than simply imprisonment.

Hold on, what? "Let the primordials do what they want to us?" No. A thousand times no. But SWLiHN offered to put her understanding of hierarchy to put the primordials subservient to the exalted, for example. I don't see why having a joint team of Twilights, Dawns, and Eclipses monitoring her suggested guidelines before approving or disapproving them as safe is a worse alternative than simply rejecting the offer and locking her away forever. And the major thing keeping the yozis in hell is their oaths, magically enforced by as yet unknown means. Why not bind them away from entering creation, but not locked up in themselves in a horrific echo chamber? Let them go pursue their goals in the Wyld or create some sort of new world, far away from where they can harm humanity? And part of the problem with the soul surgery is that the exalts imperfectly understood the roles of the different souls. Ramethus/Chungira clearly had no trouble with carrying out self-directed evolution to a frightening degree of accuracy, why not give the yozis guidelines on what they should aim for and allow meeting those conditions as grounds for parole? It's still somewhat ugly, living, thinking beings still die and that's horrible, but at least the "overbeing" is making the decisions on what courses to take themselves so... I'm trying to think if there's a term for "murder that is not actually murder."

[Hiro Protagonest]

She Who Lives burned away 90% of Creation out of spite. Can you imagine how many living things and sentient gods that destroyed?

Where do you people keep getting 90% from?

[Andreaz]

Where do you people keep getting 90% from?

Almost all references are indeed "most", but in Dreams they spill "nine tenths"

[Kobold-Bard]

...

Also, can we stop assuming that the Yozi have some sort of a priori blank check to do whatever they want? When they created sentient beings they because like parents in a sense. They were exceptionally abusive parents.

...

If you grow Sea Monkeys, does that make you a parent?

Humans aren't the Primordial's children, they're basically just critters to fill up the background space of they're Creation.

[Sanguine]

Almost all references are indeed "most", but in Dreams they spill "nine tenths"

Which makes no sense if you actually think about it. A fundamental part of the Three Spheres Cataclysm is that it destroyed thing on a conceptual level. Not just removing them from existence but from the minds of all things. If you can't even remember what was destroyed how can you say how much was destroyed?

[Andreaz]

Which makes no sense if you actually think about it. A fundamental part of the Three Spheres Cataclysm is that it destroyed thing on a conceptual level. Not just removing them from existence but from the minds of all things. If you can't even remember what was destroyed how can you say how much was destroyed?

Two things...
1) It removed more than the concept. It removed the -fact-. It's like if gravity never existed.
2) Because of the approach the second edition takes: It answers the questions. You know roughly how exaltations work. You know how primordials work. You know how incarnae work. You know the WHYs and HOWs of many things that would best be left unsaid, like that.

[Tavar]

Hold on, what? "Let the primordials do what they want to us?" No. A thousand times no. But SWLiHN offered to put her understanding of hierarchy to put the primordials subservient to the exalted, for example. I don't see why having a joint team of Twilights, Dawns, and Eclipses monitoring her suggested guidelines before approving or disapproving them as safe is a worse alternative than simply rejecting the offer and locking her away forever.

Well, first off, they don't trust the Primordials. Which makes sense after a multi-decade war for survival and freedom. When the offer was given, I can almost assure you that the Exalted thought about the power of the Primordial, how she was changing sides only now, and how dangerous she was.

Could she be useful? Certainly. But she is a danger, and a grave one, and they wanted the war to end.

And the major thing keeping the yozis in hell is their oaths, magically enforced by as yet unknown means. Why not bind them away from entering creation, but not locked up in themselves in a horrific echo chamber? Let them go pursue their goals in the Wyld or create some sort of new world, far away from where they can harm humanity?

Can their oaths do that? Even bound currently bound the Primordials still can extend their power into the world somewhat. Additionally, the Oaths seem somehow anchored in Malfeas/the Yozi's current form, judging from several sources.

And it's not like that was exactly a known thing either: how can you be sure they aren't plotting against you? Letting them essentially run free isn't an option, given their power.

And part of the problem with the soul surgery is that the exalts imperfectly understood the roles of the different souls. Ramethus/Chungira clearly had no trouble with carrying out self-directed evolution to a frightening degree of accuracy, why not give the yozis guidelines on what they should aim for and allow meeting those conditions as grounds for parole? It's still somewhat ugly, living, thinking beings still die and that's horrible, but at least the "overbeing" is making the decisions on what courses to take themselves so... I'm trying to think if there's a term for "murder that is not actually murder."

Execution, perhaps?

As for Ramethus, he came into play 1215 years. That's a pretty long time to let dangerous beings free. And, again, how motivated are they to do this, and how much does the Exalted Host trust them? I'd imagine the answer to both questions is 'not a hell of a lot'. Note that it's been suggested that the Yozi could escape if they did drastic enough soul surgery on themselves. But they won't do that, because they don't want to die. Which, when you come down to it, is what this would be for them: the being they are ceases.

[Gensh]

Almost all references are indeed "most", but in Dreams they spill "nine tenths"

That's explicitly retconned out, isn't it? But incidentally, humans also destroyed nine-tenths of all life and most of Creation - the Contagion and Crusade.

Nobody's saying that the Primordials should be free to do what they want since even the benevolent ones are mostly incapable of understanding single-souled beings (ignoring po for the sake of argument). I mean, Autochthon vivisected his own heart to use as a thinking cap - that should show the sheer distance between us. The main issue is that Primordials lived more or less in peace with each other and could technically repair Creation even though they were too lazy to do so and just made the gods do it. Humans wiped out everyone else and then set against each other within a few thousand years. Malfeas, the embodiment of all hatred, only damns his foes for ten-thousand years; whereas he personally was damned for all time. In regards to it being a damnation of his own making, honestly, what were the super-genius sorcerers among the Exalted thinking a depressed radioactive guy would do when locked away with a bunch of guys he hates - who also happen to be made of acid and razors and stuff?

Also, why are we still talking about soul pruning in regard to the current era? This is an excellent opportunity to abuse the Eclipse immunities! Just gather a group of blood ape scholars, make yourself popular in hell, then go have an audience with the mostly reasonable Sondok about how to improve things. Rinse and repeat with Ligier's other subsouls. You want all seven to like you, but you might be able to settle for half. Then you talk to the big man himself - call him uncle or aniki or something else that shows both respect and familiarity - ask him if he's willing to give you at least support in name even if he doesn't do anything since he's probably the one in hell least satisfied with the current condition. Then you keep moving; go for Malfeas' other second-circles and then their oversouls. Once the King cools off a little bit, the others might be a bit more relaxed and open to you. And hell, if you don't want to start with Malfeas, surely Szoreny, Kimbery, Cytherea, or one of the ones we don't know about would be willing to help with the proper enticement.

ALTERNATE SOLUTION: Place all the blame on Autochthon and lick boots until the cows come home.

[Sanguine]

Two things...
1) It removed more than the concept. It removed the -fact-. It's like if gravity never existed.

That's basically what I was trying to convey, I think you did a better job of it though.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Also, why are we still talking about soul pruning in regard to the current era? This is an excellent opportunity to abuse the Eclipse immunities! Just gather a group of blood ape scholars, make yourself popular in hell, then go have an audience with the mostly reasonable Sondok about how to improve things. Rinse and repeat with Ligier's other subsouls. You want all seven to like you, but you might be able to settle for half. Then you talk to the big man himself - call him uncle or aniki or something else that shows both respect and familiarity - ask him if he's willing to give you at least support in name even if he doesn't do anything since he's probably the one in hell least satisfied with the current condition. Then you keep moving; go for Malfeas' other second-circles and then their oversouls. Once the King cools off a little bit, the others might be a bit more relaxed and open to you. And hell, if you don't want to start with Malfeas, surely Szoreny, Kimbery, Cytherea, or one of the ones we don't know about would be willing to help with the proper enticement.

Don't only Fiends have diplomatic immunity in hell?

[Sanguine]

Don't only Fiends have diplomatic immunity in hell?

Nope, Moonshadows might not have Diplomatic Immunity in hell, I'm not sure, but Eclipses definitely do.

[The_Snark]

Don't only Fiends have diplomatic immunity in hell?

Eclipses have diplomatic immunity in Hell, the courts of the Fair Folk, and among gods and elementals. Fiends are protected in Hell and the Underworld. Moonshadows only get protection against creatures of death, but their immunity is actually a bit different (they don't need legitimate business, they just invoke the protection of Oblivion).

[Exthalion]

If you grow Sea Monkeys, does that make you a parent?

Humans aren't the Primordial's children, they're basically just critters to fill up the background space of they're Creation.

Except Sea Monkeys aren't moral agents. Also, consider pets. We can and do charge people severely for harming or mistreating their pets. Most of us don't consider pets moral agents and yet we still punish people for causing suffering.