General Exalted Discussion Thread XI: Great Job, You Broke the Scale.

[Gensh]

Except Sea Monkeys aren't moral agents. Also, consider pets. We can and do charge people severely for harming or mistreating their pets. Most of us don't consider pets moral agents and yet we still punish people for causing suffering.

As I said before, it's an issue of definitions: yes, we charge people for mistreating domesticated animals because we as a culture consider such animals as things of value. Primordials only consider Citizens and up as things of value. Further, it's possible for a serf to become a Citizen within titanic society by proving their worth. By default, the gods would be serfs, as they lack subsouls, though no doubt many would have been elevated so that they don't get hassled by a bunch of blood apes or something. The Primordials cared at least that much about the serfs that they provided a way out. They had no reason to care about the serfs, however, because they were as mayflies, less enduring even than the fictional identities of the raksha. The first time they would be given any reason to even consider caring, they were being stabbed in the face. I hope that at the very least, 3e gives a parable of how someone tried to reason with Theion before immediately jumping to stabbing:

He waited patiently while the god outlined a greater system of worship to power the world-mechanism than was in place. He did not care for the current system, as he had neither designed, nor built it. Still, to change any aspect of Creation would be to imply he had failed in directing his subjects. Yet he knew also that to deny his sole contribution's suggestion would be to imply that he had created something less than perfect.

After an eternal instant within his blazing nebulae, he replied, "ALL THESE THINGS MUST BE TRUE. BUT WHO ARE YOU TO DENY THEM THEIR PLEASURE? WHO ARE YOU TO DENY ADRIÁN TORMENT? ISIDOROS RAMPAGE? KIMBERY DROWNING?"

[Kobold-Bard]

I know this goes against the ruling in the Core book about barrels of fish and such, but I'm curious.

In terms of the Resources background, how many dots would modern amenities cost? Looking at:

- a decent home PC/HDTV
- a new smartphone
- season ticket for a top flight sports team
- standard 4/5 door car

Any help much appreciated.

[Turalisj]

About 3 dots for all that, I'd say.

[Sanguine]

I know this goes against the ruling in the Core book about barrels of fish and such, but I'm curious.

In terms of the Resources background, how many dots would modern amenities cost? Looking at:

- a decent home PC/HDTV
- a new smartphone
- season ticket for a top flight sports team
- standard 4/5 door car

Any help much appreciated.

This is just a gut reaction but I'd say two dots for the first two and 3 for the last two. My reasoning for this is that a fairly well off individual (Resources 3) shouldn't take a serious hit to his finances from having those first two things, they are the sorts of things you expect them to have. However the later two are much more extravagant/expensive and I can see them being a significant investment of money for our hypothetical individual.

[knightMARE]

Hi guys, I've been out of touch with Exalted for a while (Since before Masters of Jade), and I have a few questions

1. How did 2.5e turn out? Can someone give me a run down of the changes made and if they were good/bad?

2. I was excited to hear about 3e - do we know any real information on it? I was going to run a game at my FLGS when 2.5e came out but I might postpone it

3. Have I missed anything else important?

Thanks in advance

[Hiro Protagonest]

1. How did 2.5e turn out? Can someone give me a run down of the changes made and if they were good/bad?

Good changes.

2. I was excited to hear about 3e - do we know any real information on it? I was going to run a game at my FLGS when 2.5e came out but I might postpone it

Well, we're waiting years for Infernals and Alchemicals again.

3. Have I missed anything else important?

From the sound of it? Shards.

[Friv]

1. How did 2.5e turn out? Can someone give me a run down of the changes made and if they were good/bad?

Generally, weapons got fixed up to be less (but not entirely non-) broken, minimum damage got sliced down, Combos got fixed to help people live longer, and soak-based Charms and artifacts got a boost to be a viable defensive strategy.

It's a strong step towards working better. A few things work worse - grapples are much more dangerous, now.

[Turalisj]

And grapples can be auto-defeated with a 3 dot hearthstone.

[golentan]

The major difference in 2.5 to my mind is that combos can be used freely without having to buy or train them. Almost on par, perfect D's are no longer spammably cheap, and Essence Ping damage has been removed. Generally I'd say the changes are good, though Attunement motes need to die in a fire.

[aetherialDawn]

Attunement motes need to die in a fire.

Many things you say, I am unsure of.
But truer words than those are rarely said, sir.

Also, I seem to recall 2.5e making it so that social combat can be meaningful absent terrible mind control charms, but I would need to check my errata document to be sure.

I'm in favor of things that fix the reliance on terrible mind control charms, especially since things that are just "My arguments are passionate enough to make the hardest heart spare a moment, though the choice is ultimately theirs to follow" get lumped in with "KNEEL, MIND-SLAVE"

[Ifni]

Also, I seem to recall 2.5e making it so that social combat can be meaningful absent terrible mind control charms, but I would need to check my errata document to be sure.

Yes, yes it did, by allowing extra successes on social attacks to make them drain extra WP (to a maximum of 5 WP per attack). NMI from a particular person against a particular target only works until the first time they spend WP to resist in a scene, but you can take off 5 WP with that first NMI hit if you get a high enough attack roll, rather than 1 WP/attack to a max of 2 total. I have a group that's still playing mostly 2e (as opposed to 2.5), but the 2.5 version of social combat was adopted by unanimous consent. Along with the Twilight anima, because our Twilight player preferred it to the old one.

(As for why we're still playing 2e; we'd already house-ruled combos heavily, and four of the five PCs weren't using armor for character/style reasons and didn't favor Resistance, which is a much scarier thing in 2.5 than in 2e. As the Zenith player, 2.5 would've been a physical-combat power-up for me relative to everybody else, which I really did not need, especially after the buff to social combat.)

Since the vast majority of my 3-die stunts come about in social combat, I'm rather pleased with any change that lets my carefully composed argument with 20 sux on Presence+Charisma actually do something more than "okay, that's 1 WP, very good, now give me another speech".

[Maugan Ra]

Oh yeah. Perfect defenses got boosted in price... I think eight motes is about the standard now, rather than four. Which means you will take a hit to your essence pool for using them, rather than being able to spam them endlessly so long as you can reliably describe a two dice stunt.

Likewise, combos no longer have to be developed in advance, and they do not require a willpower point to use. This, needless to say, is kinda huge. From what I've seen, it tends to lead to more flexibility and also makes combats faster and deadlier.

[TheCountAlucard]

Yozis are in eternal suffering...

Can we stop with the "eternally" thing? They've only been there for five thousand years. Note that this is half the duration of Malfeas' "I torture your soul and then obliterate your existence" Charm.

And please don't start on me with the "Exalted were fighting to defend humans" as it were Exalted who devised ways to DESTROY SOULS. FOREVER.

They sure as heck weren't the first. Theion was more than capable of it during the war, considering what he did to the Dragon Kings. Autochthon was more than capable of it when he invented soulsteel. The Fair Folk were more than capable of annihilating someone's existence, back before the errata, anyway.

She has a charm that gives her a 6 in each virtue.

Nope, it's still rated at a 5. And more importantly, it twists the Virtues 'til they don't work the same way anymore.

[omegalith]

Nope, it's still rated at a 5. And more importantly, it twists the Virtues 'til they don't work the same way anymore.

"Infernal Exalts can purchase this Charm once per dot of Integrity (to a maximum of four times), with each purchase enhancing one Virtue rated 5+."

Seems to mean it adds a dot even if it passes 5.

Yes, it makes them work differently, that's the entire point. I spelled out how it does so in the post you were quoting. It exaggerates the virtues, but warps them in a way that only entirely makes sense if you have all four enhanced.

[golentan]

"Infernal Exalts can purchase this Charm once per dot of Integrity (to a maximum of four times), with each purchase enhancing one Virtue rated 5+."

Seems to mean it adds a dot even if it passes 5.

Yes, it makes them work differently, that's the entire point. I spelled out how it does so in the post you were quoting. It exaggerates the virtues, but warps them in a way that only entirely makes sense if you have all four enhanced.

It never says it adds a dot. It says that the virtue in question has to be rated at least 5. You're reading waaaaaay too much into it.

[Kyeudo]

The only way to get Virtues higher than 5 that I know of is the Legendary Virtue merit from Scroll of Heroes.

[Turalisj]

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=258238

Oh look, someone's got an Exalted Modern game recruiting....

[Exthalion]

The only way to get Virtues higher than 5 that I know of is the Legendary Virtue merit from Scroll of Heroes.

There is also a hearthstone that adds to any virtue roles you make.

[omegalith]

It never says it adds a dot. It says that the virtue in question has to be rated at least 5. You're reading waaaaaay too much into it.

It says it enhances it, then explicitly spells out the possibility of breaking the usual cap of 5, which it wouldn't need to mention otherwise.

[tonberrian]

It says it enhances it, then explicitly spells out the possibility of breaking the usual cap of 5, which it wouldn't need to mention otherwise.

It enhances it by making all the dice automatic successes. Not by adding a dot.

Seriously, it says nothing about adding a dot.

[Kyeudo]

There is also a hearthstone that adds to any virtue roles you make.

Doesn't actualy change your Virtue rating.

[omegalith]

It enhances it by making all the dice automatic successes. Not by adding a dot.

Seriously, it says nothing about adding a dot.

Sure, but given the "5+" that seemed the obvious reading, given that almost nothing does break that limit. If it just said "with each purchase enhancing one Virtue rated 5" I wouldn't have read it that way.

*Shrug*

[Exthalion]

Doesn't actualy change your Virtue rating.

I could have sworn it compelled you to higher virtue making you have an effective rating of actual+3. Regardless, you are right that it doesn't. I understood that charm to mean that those extra three would be successes as well though.

[Ifni]

Sure, but given the "5+" that seemed the obvious reading, given that almost nothing does break that limit. If it just said "with each purchase enhancing one Virtue rated 5" I wouldn't have read it that way.

*Shrug*

As others have said, I'm pretty sure the "5+" is just there so people wouldn't worry about whether someone with a Virtue at 6 could take it. I'm glad they did, as it's going to become relevant for my Zenith at some point (well, not precisely this Charm, but a modified version based on the Sun's virtues using this one as a balance point). Because getting 6 automatic successes every time you roll your Cursed Virtue is the best idea, especially with Glory to the Most High

... I should probably pick up Truth Shines Through before GttMH, come to think of it.

[Qwertystop]

I'm seeing some stuff in Alchemical Augmentations mention "maximum Ability ratings" and limits on bonus dice from Charms, but I can't seem to find anything about what those actually are. I have found a mention of "dice caps" on the Exalted wiki, but that caps dice at (Attribute) rating, which seems to mean that you can't actually get dice from anything other than your Attribute rating because that would put you over the cap.

Help?

[golentan]

As others have said, I'm pretty sure the "5+" is just there so people wouldn't worry about whether someone with a Virtue at 6 could take it. I'm glad they did, as it's going to become relevant for my Zenith at some point (well, not precisely this Charm, but a modified version based on the Sun's virtues using this one as a balance point). Because getting 6 automatic successes every time you roll your Cursed Virtue is the best idea, especially with Glory to the Most High

... I should probably pick up Truth Shines Through before GttMH, come to think of it.

So you're picking up Super-Saiyan Prana, a charm that will virtually guarantee the personality changes associated with it, and a charm which will make those personality changes glaringly obvious to those around you?

On the one hand, I suppose that may keep your friends from murdering you. On the other hand, the immaculates will have a field day. "See, I told you he was a demon possessing the person that used to be there. It's blatantly obvious that he's not acting like the possessed person would, and his full demon power is manifesting."

[Exthalion]

I'm seeing some stuff in Alchemical Augmentations mention "maximum Ability ratings" and limits on bonus dice from Charms, but I can't seem to find anything about what those actually are. I have found a mention of "dice caps" on the Exalted wiki, but that caps dice at (Attribute) rating, which seems to mean that you can't actually get dice from anything other than your Attribute rating because that would put you over the cap.

Help?

5 dots or essence, whatever is higher.

Dice caps refer to how many dice you can add from charms. For Solaroids it is attribute+ability. For DB it is ability+specialty I think? Don't know the others off hand. I know Sidereals have essence in the calculation which makes it even more important for them then normal.

[golentan]

I'm seeing some stuff in Alchemical Augmentations mention "maximum Ability ratings" and limits on bonus dice from Charms, but I can't seem to find anything about what those actually are. I have found a mention of "dice caps" on the Exalted wiki, but that caps dice at (Attribute) rating, which seems to mean that you can't actually get dice from anything other than your Attribute rating because that would put you over the cap.

Help?

As Exthalion says, dice caps are the maximum number of dice that a charm or combination of charms can add to your dice pool. So for Alchemicals, their maximum dice pool is Attribute (natural) + Ability + Attribute (added by charms). Note that the 4th attribute augmentation doesn't count as dice from charms, and causes the attribute in question to count as higher for the limits on other charms, though.

Dice caps refer to how many dice you can add from charms. For Solaroids it is attribute+ability. For DB it is ability+specialty I think? Don't know the others off hand. I know Sidereals have essence in the calculation which makes it even more important for them then normal.

That's right. Solars are Attribute + Ability, Lunars are Attribute, Sidereals are Essence dice but notably count automatic successes as only one die against that limit instead of two, and terrestrials are Ability + Specialty.

The one thing...

5 dots or essence, whatever is higher.

What is this I don't even... What were you saying here?

[Exthalion]

What is this I don't even... What were you saying here?

Maximum ability ratings. Same with attributes. The max you can raise the traits to with xp.

[golentan]

*rereads*

Oh... It all makes sense now. Sorry for the brain fart moment.