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2013-01-04, 05:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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2013-01-04, 05:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dresden Files: Winter is coming
So what do you guys think of Simon=Cowl?
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2013-01-04, 07:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dresden Files: Winter is coming
Could be. I've seen positions that are vehemently against it; personally, I'm not fussed either way. Harry has made deals to overcome death himself. It's not an impossibility that someone else may have been able to, particularly such a powerful wizard.
Quoth the raven, "Polly wants a cracker."
Pony avatar by the Great and Powerful DirtyTabs. Lotsa hugs!
Scourge Caste avatar by the illustrious Akrim.elf. Thank you!
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2013-01-04, 07:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dresden Files: Winter is coming
I thought the running theory was Justin=Cowl? I've never heard a theory that Simon was Cowl.
Last edited by The Glyphstone; 2013-01-04 at 07:22 PM.
NOW COMPLETE: Let's Play Starcraft II Trilogy:
Hell, It's About Time: Wings of Liberty
Does This Mutation Make Me Look Fat: Heart of the Swarm
My Life For Aiur? I Barely Know 'Er: Legacy of the Void
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2013-01-04, 07:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dresden Files: Winter is coming
I thought Cowl was Cristos
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2013-01-04, 07:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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2013-01-04, 08:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dresden Files: Winter is coming
Even Jim Butcher would never use such a dastardly pun.
Well at the time it is kinda a short list of folks that would have reason to guess Harry had Bob.
Or that's my basis.
Assuming its a "solvable" mystery which many aren't. We already saw that (to my disappointment) with Ghost Story.
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2013-01-04, 09:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dresden Files: Winter is coming
Cowl could always be Kemmler. Dead just doesn't take to the guy
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2013-01-04, 09:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dresden Files: Winter is coming
Maybe, but that doesn't seem to fit his "I have nothing but disdain for the madman Kemmler." claim.
I was always clinging like crazy to Langtry/Merlin=Cowl. Don't know why, it's just a gut thing.
Quietly suspect that Kemmler stole Justin's body just before his death, and that would explain Justin's sudden change in behaviour. The Capriocorpus had to learn that trick from someone...
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2013-01-04, 09:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dresden Files: Winter is coming
Nah, Kemmler's gotta stay down. If the entire series of the Dresden Files has been just Kemmler I'll be disappoint.
I'm right now thinking Cowl is a lot like Gatekeeper, a title. His purpose is to let Outsiders back in, something that Justin was probably maybe trying to do.
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2013-01-04, 09:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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2013-01-04, 09:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dresden Files: Winter is coming
No Cowl is the obvious not-name used by everyone in Dead Beat to refer to Cowl.
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2013-01-04, 09:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dresden Files: Winter is coming
SpoilerThe partner to Sharkface.
Nope. Page 86 of the Nook version
"Touche, O' dark master of evil bathrobes," I said. "But I'm still not giving you my copy of the book."
"I am called Cowl," he said. Was there a note of amusement in his voice? Maybe. "And I am feeling patient this evening. Again I will ask it. Give me your copy of the book."
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2013-01-04, 09:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dresden Files: Winter is coming
I feel like if Dresden already knew them at some point in his life, he would recognize something about them even when in disguise, let alone his magical senses picking up familiar vibes. I think Cowl has to be someone that Dresden hasn't spent a lot of time with, or someone he doesn't know.
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2013-01-05, 09:08 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dresden Files: Winter is coming
SILENCE FOOLS!. BEHOLD AS THE TRUTH OF WHO COWL REALLY IS IS REVEALED AT LAST
Why Cowl probably isn't Justin:
He's to powerfull to be Justin. Cowl was equal to an SC level wizard while Justin was merely a Warden (remember that the captain of the Wardens was one of the people in line to receive an SC seat).
Cowl's black magic isn't fully tainted. Justin dived headlong into black magic.
From what we've seen of their personality's Justin's personality is waaay different than Cowl's.
Why Cowl probably isn't Kemmler:
Cowl is waaaay to weak to be Kemmler. Kemmler was able to take on all the combat-ready members of the White Council. Cowl is (as I said before; equal to a SC level wizard).
Kemmler's personality is very different from Cowl's too. While we haven't actually seen Kemmler's personality, we have seen Evil!Bob's personality and Bob picks up traits from his master.
All the fully tainted black magic user's we've seen have had tremendous ego's but Cowl claims to have "nothing but disdain for the madman Kemmler".
Why Cowl is probably Simon(I'm putting this in spoilers since it's so big. It was the OP of a reference thread created by the poster Elegast. All sentances in purple are my own additions that I've been meaning to mention in the thread):
SpoilerThe Cowl = Simon theory has been discussed in a huge number of threads. This is an attempt to write a reference thread summing all the knowledge about it. Criticism of the theory and of the OP is encouraged.
The theory is old and well-known, so I haven't been able to identify its original author. Still I would like to thank Raptor, 123456789blaaa and Neurovore, as I stole much from their posts to write this one. Many, many others wrote insightful posts on the subject, thank you all.
Cowl is Simon Petrovich
Everything we know about Cowl
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ALL quotes about Cowl:
SpoilerQuote from: Grave Peril
"Sheesh," I said. I glanced up at Bianca, who was in converse with one of the robed and hooded shadows. The pair of them vanished to the back of the dias while Bianca watched, and then returned, lugging something that evidently weighted a good deal. They settled the fairly large object, hidden beneath a dark red cloth, on the dias beside Bianca.
His voice was… odd. Male, certainly, but it didn't sound quite human. There was a kind of quavering buzz in it that made it warble, somehow, made the words slither uncertainly. The words were slow and enunciated. They had to be, in order to be intelligible.
"Bite my ass, Cowl."
Kumori's hood twitched back and forth between Cowl and me. She took three steps back.
"Just as well," Cowl murmured. "I have wanted to see for myself what has the wardens so nervous about you."
"I have nothing but disdain for the madman Kemmler," he spat. "Have a care what insults you offer. This need not involve you at all, Dresden."
"At Bianca's masquerade. You were there on the dais with her." As I spoke the words, I became increasingly convinced of them. The two figures I'd seen back then had never shown their faces, but there was something in the way that Cowl and Kumori moved that matched the two shadows back then precisely. "You were the ones who gave the Leanansidhe that athame."
"Perhaps," said Kumori, but there was an inclination to her head that ceded me the truth of my statement.
"If one of the Wardens thought he might be about to practice black magic, he'd probably cut off his own head on pure reflex."
"All of them?" Kumori asked in a quiet voice. "Are you sure?"
I looked back and forth between them. "Are you telling me that someone on the Council is after Kemmler's power?"
"The Council is not what it was," said Cowl. "It has rotted from the inside, and many wizards who have chafed at its restrictions have seen the war with the Red Court reveal its weakness. It will fall. Soon. Perhaps before tomorrow night."
"Dorosh," he snarled in reply, and extended his right hand.
I've traded practice blows with my old master Justin DuMorne, himself at one time a Warden. I fought him in earnest, too, and won. I've tested my strength in practice duels against the mentor who succeeded him, Ebenezar McCoy. My faerie godmother, the Leanansidhe, has a seriously nasty right hook, metaphysically speaking, and I've even gone up against the least of the Queens of Faerie. Throw in a couple of demons, various magical constructs, a thirteen-story fall in a runaway elevator, half a dozen spellslingers of one amount of nasty or another, and I've seen more sheer mystic violence than most wizards in the business. I've beaten them all, or at least survived them, and I've got the scars to show for it.
Cowl hit me harder than any of them.
The point being that Cowl wasn't some kind of demon. He was a wizard. Human.
"Cowl," I said. "He made himself scarce last night. My guess is that he was too busy setting it up to take a swing at Grevane or the Corpsetaker."
"Why Cowl?"
"Because this is a major hex, man. If you'd have asked me yesterday, I wouldn't have thought this was possible. I don't know how he did it, but…" I shivered. "His magic is stronger than mine. And from what I saw of his technique, he's a hell of a lot more skilled, too. If he's as good at thaumaturgy as he is at evocation, he's the most dangerous wizard I've ever seen."
She was silent for a moment more. Then she said, "Do you know why Cowl has made a study of necromancy? And why I have joined him?"
"No."
"Because necromancy embraces the power of death, just as magic embraces the power of life. And as magic can be twisted and perverted to cruel and destructive ends, necromancy can be turned upon its nature as well. Death can be warded off, as I did for the wounded man that night. Life can be served by that dark power, if one's will and purpose are strong."
"Uh-huh. You're a Schubert fan boy, aren't you? You've got the look."
"Goethe, actually," he said.
"You really intend to make yourself into a god?" I asked.
"I intend to take power," Cowl said. "I regard myself as the least of the possible evils."
"Uh-huh," I said. "Someone is going to get the power. Might as well be you. Something like that?"
"Something like that," Cowl said.
"What if no one got it?" I said.
"I don't really see that happening," he said. "Grevane and the Corpsetaker are determined. I intend to beat them to the prize and use it to destroy them. It's the only way to be sure one of those madmen does not become something more terrible than the earth has ever seen."
"Right," I said. "You're the correct madman for the job."
Cowl was silent for a long moment in the rain. Drops fell off the end of my pistol in his gloved hand. Then he said, his voice pensive, "I do not perceive myself to be mad. But if I were truly mad, would I be able to tell?"
"No," I spat. "Cowl knew that Bob used to be Kemmler's. Somewhere in there, Bob knows everything about the theory that Kemmler did."
"Gosh. That's so altruistic of him." I shook my head. "If he kills me, he'll have my death curse to contend with."
"He has already contended with such curses," Kumori said. "Many times. I advise you to retire from the field."
Cowl set the skull aside on the grass, then raised his hands above his head and let the sleeves fall back from his long, weathered arms covered in old scars. He began a chant in a low voice, steady and strong.
Cowl held up a miniature hand for silence, a gesture that looked, somehow, stiff and pained. Then his hood panned around the room.
So we know that Cowl:
•is human
•is a wizard
•is a SC level wizard, in skill and power
•has studied necromancy with 'good' intentions
•claims not to be a Kemmlerite
•knew that Bob used to be Kemmler's propriety
•knows well the members of the WC
•has a strange, inhuman voice
•has a female apprentice
•is male
•has survived deathcurses
•has sustained serious injuries
•uses 'Dorosh' as keyword for his magic
•is a fan of Goethe
•gave the athame to Bianca
•hopes not be mad
•has a magic that do not feel completely dark
•has connections with the outsiders
•wanted to see Harry for himself
Cowl is Simon, Klaus or a new character
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The core argument of the Cowl=Simon theory is very simple and very powerful:
we know that Cowl is a human SC-level wizard, so the list of suspect is very short:
•Langtry
•Rashid
•Eb
•Lafortier
•Mai
•Martha
•LTW
•Simon Petrovich
•Klaus Schneider (the Toymaker)
During Dead Beat the SC was fighting the Reds. So we have two possibilities: Simon or Klaus.
It's impossible to rule out Klaus, but we have arguments against it:
Quote from: Summer Knight
Injun Joe interrupted. "Wizard Schneider is a fine enchanter, and he has a reputation for skill and honesty. But he is young for such a responsibility. There are wizards present who are his senior in experience and the Art. They deserve the consideration of the Council."
"Wizard Schneider."
A small, round-cheeked man with a fringe of gauzy white down over his scalp and a round belly stretching his robes stood up and gave Ebenezar a brief nod. Then he looked up at the Merlin and said, in Latin with a heavy Germanic accent, "While I am grateful for the offer, honored Merlin, I must respectfully decline your nomination, in favor of Wizard McCoy. He will serve the Council more ably than I."
Klaus shows no sign of injury.
LTW implies that McCoy is a greater wizard than Klaus, and Klaus seems to agree.
This quote:
Quote from: Dead Beat
"Bite my ass, Cowl."
Kumori's hood twitched back and forth between Cowl and me. She took three steps back.
"Just as well," Cowl murmured. "I have wanted to see for myself what has the wardens so nervous about you."
And on the other hand, the case for Simon is really strong.
The case for Simon Petrovitch = Cowl
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Simon was a male, human wizard, member of the senior Council.
He was living in Archangel, Russia, so he knew Goethe (his works at least) and could have used 'Dorosh', which seems to have East-european origines.
He's the leader of the 'Brute Squad', which went against Kemmler, so he knew Kemmler.
His apprentice Justin took Bob from the ruin of Kemmler's lab. So it's a fair bet he knew about Bob.
Justin had extensive contacts with the Oustsiders, implying that Simon would have no problem getting connected to them.
Simon had a female apprentice:
Quote from: Paranet Files Preview
You’ll see direct translations from sources like Simon and his apprentice Larisa Yevtushenko
So we see that Simon would have no problem filling all the characteristics of Cowl, and is the only character to do so in the Dresdenverse.
In reverse, it would be far easier for Cowl to carry his plots if he were Simon:
Quote from: Summer Knight
Martha shook her head. "Simon Pietrovich. Senior Council member. Our vampire expert. He was killed less than two days ago. The whole compound in Archangel , Ebenezar. All of them. I'm sorry."
Ebenezar shook his head slowly. His voice was a pale shadow of its usual self. "I've been to his tower. It was a fortress. How did they do it? "The Wardens said that they couldn't be sure, but it looked like someone let the killers in past the defenses. They didn't get away unscathed. There were the remains of half a dozen nobles of the Red Court . Many of their warriors. But they killed Simon and the rest."
"Let them in?" Ebenezar breathed. "Treachery? But even if it was true, it would have to be someone who knew his defenses inside and out."
Secondly, Simon was the WC vampire expert. Cowl planned two big vampires operations during the books: the war with the Red Court and the coup in the White Court. Cowl was very close to Bianca and Vittorio, and maybe Madrigal, Madeline and Mavra, Bianca's teacher. Cowl needed extensive knowledge of the vampires courts, and many contacts/allies among them to accomplish his plots, so being Simon would definitely make his life easier.
Little WAG: We know Cowl has sustained serious injuries and survived deathcurses. I believe that several members of the Brute Squad understood he was a traitor, and used their deathcurses against him. He survived, but with heavy injuries.
The deathcurse WOJ problem
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There is one major objection to this theory, caused by one WOJ:
Quote from: WOJ
See what happened to all the vampires around Simon when they assaulted his compound immediately prior to the onstage events in Summer Knight.
However, three counter-arguments are possible:
- the WOJ does not explicitly says that Simon casted his deathcurse. Maybe the vampires were around Simon because he was the one leading them.
- maybe he did cast his deathcurse, but still managed to resurrect the CorpseTaker way . After all, non soulfire powered deathcurse should not use up the soul. He could also have been ressurected by Kumori with her necromancy. We may have a precedent for this as their is evidence that Harry's PyroFuego in Grave Peril was his death curse (he was rescued from death by Micheal praying). He could have done this to make his "death" more convincing to wizard examiners (see below WoJ).
- maybe he faked his own deathcurse, which is not completely impossible per WOJ:
Quote from: WOJ
Definitely a qualitative difference. I mean, we rate nukes in terms of "how many thousand tons of TNT is this equal to?" but let me see you try to deploy 80,000 tons of TNT as a weapon. If you could, the destruction would be the same, in theory, but the nuke has a quality all its own that makes it stand out. A death curse is the same thing. A really powerful practitioner (any member of the Council) could probably simulate a death curse with enough time and forethought, but there would be traces that an investigator could find, afterward. "Hey, why are there tire tracks worn into this road? Because someone was using it to haul 80,000 tons of TNT to the site of the explosion, and you can't do that without a LOT of trucks."
Motivation
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For a very long time, no obvious motivation was available to explain Simon's potential fall. After Cold Days,Spoilerand taking in account that Cowl was the one supplying the infected athame, it seems probable that Cowl is infected. It's interesting to note that Aurora, who was infected, thought she was working for the greater good. The same may have happened to Simon, as Cowl seems genuinely concerned by the morality/sanity of his actions.
Sources
Memories of old threads and:
- Serack's WOJ compilation
- this long thread on the subject
- this even longer one
Keep in mind ALL of the previous spoiler is from a Watsonian perspective. Here are two more points from a Doylist perspective:
It provides a reason for why Jim chose Simon to be the mentor for Justin. Seriously, why would Jim choose some random SC member who gets killed early on in the series to be Justin's mentor? What's the point? Justin was in deep with Outsiders, he knew about Harry having power over Outsiders, he was a strong influence on Harry...why have some random SC member be connected to Harry through Justin?
It provides fantastic storytelling goodness since Simon was a close friend of both Eb and Martha. What could make Simon choose to go over to the Circle, and deal with Outsiders? What could make him betray his closest friends? It would call into question if the Circle really are bad guys.
Like Simon .
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2013-01-05, 09:21 AM (ISO 8601)
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2013-01-05, 09:25 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dresden Files: Winter is coming
I just had a weird thought:
SpoilerWe saw Nemesis puppeting Cat Sith, my question is could it potentially puppet a 'dead' person provided they were infected when they died?
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2013-01-05, 09:26 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dresden Files: Winter is coming
Once you throw time travel into that mix everything is ruined forever. For the sake of a sane wild-ass-guessing session, IMHO, time travel is off the table.
Unless Cowl and Kumori are time-traveled Winter Knight and Winter Lady, Master and Apprentice Wizard Harry Dresden and Molly Carpenter. That's what Harry needs to put off the apocalypse, he needs to BECOME HIS GREATEST ENEMY.
I've always liked the Simon theory.
@^: Oh, I like that!!! I like that a lot!!!Last edited by Mauve Shirt; 2013-01-05 at 09:27 AM.
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2013-01-05, 09:34 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dresden Files: Winter is coming
Its not a useful idea to explore because it opens more doors than it closes though. It however does answer one of the biggest questions about Cowl, namely how he could survive the Darkhallow (probably the third biggest spell we have seen) blowing up in his face.
SpoilerAnd makes Nemesis=Dark Council with Cowl being a VIP reasonable again. What with Cowl actually being Nemesis.
EditSpoilerAlso had a VERY scary thought, Peabody was a member/underling of the Black Council. He was subverting the minds of Wardens/SC. The Black Council has been shown to be related to and spreading Nemesis. A major part of the military strength of the WC might actually be infected by Nemesis.Last edited by jindra34; 2013-01-05 at 09:40 AM.
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2013-01-05, 09:41 AM (ISO 8601)
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2013-01-05, 02:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dresden Files: Winter is coming
Edit: Nevermind, got confused.
Last edited by Drolyt; 2013-01-05 at 02:11 PM.
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2013-01-05, 05:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dresden Files: Winter is coming
I'm a bit sketchy on something. When do we learn Cowl studied the athame? Or that he new Bianca? I haven't read the books prior to Changes in a really long time
Last edited by Anderlith; 2013-01-05 at 05:28 PM.
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2013-01-05, 05:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dresden Files: Winter is coming
Dresden saw Cowl and Kumori at Bianca's party, where they gave a case to Bianca, which contained the athame.
Granted, Dresden doesn't know it's Cowl and Kumori until the events of Dead Beat, so we don't know it at the time.
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2013-01-05, 06:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dresden Files: Winter is coming
Thanks, I remember now.
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2013-01-05, 07:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dresden Files: Winter is coming
@123456789blaaa:
A couple of standout problems with your post
1: That Cowl must be an "SC level wizard" as your standpoint. We know Cowl is better then Harry. However Harry also considered Morgan and Luccio better then him yet not SC considered, while Ramirez and Elaine are peers. Given the centuries of difference there's still room for argument about where Cowl falls. (And "SC level" shouldn't be taken to equal combat prowess either)
2. In Summer Knight there were a lot of names ahead of Ebenezar and Klaus for SC, nomination. Maybe "pyramid sitting" or "he got real married" is a clever excuse to let Cowl do all his evil plans. To say nothing of whom might have been next after them. SC membership is clearly a volunteer job with some politics beyond just ability. So we really can't create a closed lists of suspects to eliminate from at all.
3. In addition we know from the existence of Grevane and Corpse Taker that wizard level talents are not monopolized by the White Council. So again no closed list of suspects.
4. You say different personalities between Cowl and Justin... any specifics? I'd not want to judge from limited experience, but I see some similarities. I saw both being business-like, but not without humor. I also think we haven't had a flashback to the duel between Harry an Justin for a reason. What that is don't know... but still somehow Cowl knew Harry had Bob.
5. You speculate shameless almost everything about Simon. You only cite one thing not speculation with there being a female apprentice, but the first results for Paranet Files Preview was a fanfiction and the tabletop RPG. The latter did we know did a reasonable job, but need confirmation its WoJ not something they made themselves. Also a female apprentice is not notable or suggestive, just saying. Really only starts to look like evidence if you take Simon Cowl as the starting point not conclusion. I think you are indulging in sharpshooting.
6. Simon's case is basically "he's supposed to be dead, but we don't see it happen, and he was Senior Council." Now because Simon was SC isn't entirely nuts or anything, but he has no real arguments for him. Just that by being a blank slate he doesn't have outstanding reasons against. As I said though we don't have a limited suspect list though so can't do process of elimination to shore that up.
Creepy thought but since dead is quite dead anymore anyways I find it more creepy then anything else
I'd hope not since if it was really that level of easiness we'd have a much bigger problem. Namely there's a bigger fish out there that would be even easier to nab:
SpoilerMortals
I'd speculate its either an involved process or needs some type of temptation/acceptance trickery.
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2013-01-05, 08:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dresden Files: Winter is coming
SpoilerMortals might be a bigger group but remember Outsiders (whom Nemesis acts as a infiltrator for) are trying to get in. And outside of the White Council there are bloody few mortals with anywhere near the power to help with that. And my thought was Peabody using the ink in a similar fashion to the Athame.
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2013-01-05, 08:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dresden Files: Winter is coming
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2013-01-05, 09:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dresden Files: Winter is coming
Morgan didn't kill the skinwalker with magic, though. He tricked it. Any low-power wizard with the right knowledge of the Ways, and the extremely lucky timing he pulled off, could have done the same. So that's not a great guarantee of judging power.
NOW COMPLETE: Let's Play Starcraft II Trilogy:
Hell, It's About Time: Wings of Liberty
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2013-01-05, 09:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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2013-01-05, 09:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Dresden Files: Winter is coming
I wouldn't give them credit either, since it was only through the cunning and luck of a wizard that the skinwalker was in a position to be nuked (and even then it was by accident).
NOW COMPLETE: Let's Play Starcraft II Trilogy:
Hell, It's About Time: Wings of Liberty
Does This Mutation Make Me Look Fat: Heart of the Swarm
My Life For Aiur? I Barely Know 'Er: Legacy of the Void