Dresden Files: Winter is coming (Cold Days Spoilers)

[123456789blaaa]

Or perhaps magic is simply easier the closer they keep it to the normal laws of nature?

This is also true.

We have a WoJ that there is no upper limit on magic. If you have enough you can literally rewrite reality. I can't even imagine how much magical power you'd need for that though...

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Remember, magic is will. One's intellect is what shapes that will into a particular form. And one can only shape what one knows in some respect. So a physicist might be able to conjure up something more involved, but Harry knows what fire is, so he's able to conjure up fire.

I would also imagine that the more time you spend shaping magic into a particular form, the better you get at it. Thus Harry's reliance on fire. (And then when he gets the Winter Mantle, he gets infused with Infriga knowledge.)

Side note on the physics of the fuel of his fire--Fuego is fueled by his will, first and foremost, although then it starts burning other available fuel in the area. The magic provides the essential fuel.

Also note that because Harry understands the idea of a symbol as something one can believe in, he's able to channel magic into a pentacle to hold off a vampire. It's another form of the same thing--the intangible thought requires a focus. In the case of evocation, that focus is a natural element, such as fire.

[123456789blaaa]

Remember, magic is will. One's intellect is what shapes that will into a particular form. And one can only shape what one knows in some respect. So a physicist might be able to conjure up something more involved, but Harry knows what fire is, so he's able to conjure up fire.

I would also imagine that the more time you spend shaping magic into a particular form, the better you get at it. Thus Harry's reliance on fire. (And then when he gets the Winter Mantle, he gets infused with Infriga knowledge.)

Side note on the physics of the fuel of his fire--Fuego is fueled by his will, first and foremost, although then it starts burning other available fuel in the area. The magic provides the essential fuel.

Also note that because Harry understands the idea of a symbol as something one can believe in, he's able to channel magic into a pentacle to hold off a vampire. It's another form of the same thing--the intangible thought requires a focus. In the case of evocation, that focus is a natural element, such as fire.

It's not fueled by his Will. His Will is what shapes it. Magic can be fueled by multiple sources including ambient magic, storms, emotions etc.

I'm not sure how MW does her thing though. Perhaps their is some way of using pure Will? Or perhaps you just need to be strong enough?

[CarpeGuitarrem]

It's not fueled by his Will. His Will is what shapes it. Magic can be fueled by multiple sources including ambient magic, storms, emotions etc.

I'm not sure how MW does her thing though. Perhaps their is some way of using pure Will? Or perhaps you just need to be strong enough?

Right, my bad. (Also due to the fact that there's a fuzzy area between Intellect and Will.) Intellect guides Will, so what you know determines how you can shape magic. You can't will something that you can't understand/envision. That's what I meant. Also the reason why black magic does bad things to you.

(Also, "emotions" kinda folds into a low subset of Will. It's sorta like ambient noise in relation to Will.)

MW? (I'm not up on the acronyms...you mean Molls?)

EDIT: found it. Mother Winter's "thing" isn't really a direct application of magic, same with Odin's. It's a product of who they are. Their will is godly, pun not quite intended, and they simply exist on a higher echelon than mortals.

[123456789blaaa]

Right, my bad. (Also due to the fact that there's a fuzzy area between Intellect and Will.) Intellect guides Will, so what you know determines how you can shape magic. You can't will something that you can't understand/envision. That's what I meant. Also the reason why black magic does bad things to you.

(Also, "emotions" kinda folds into a low subset of Will. It's sorta like ambient noise in relation to Will.)

MW? (I'm not up on the acronyms...you mean Molls?)

In GS Harry talks about how emotion can fuel Will. It's like how you can run more than you usually could if you're afraid for your daughter or how you can take more hits if you're angry at the person. I don't think emotion are "subset" of Will.

MW= Mother Winter. Remember how she holds Harry down in Cold Days?

[Soras Teva Gee]

Interesting...an explanation for this would be "pyrofeugo" just being a normal spell which Harry just happened to use in GP because it was so powerfull. By the time of this quote comes around he's much more experienced and powerfull so he can use it without dieing (though he still doesn't want to use it on a regular basis).

Yes much was my conclusion at both times. We've seen Harry about to sling a Death Curse and he called it a Death Curse by name. Given the level of exclusiveness I have to think nothing but a Death Curse is a death curse.

A lot of magic is subconcious.

Here's the thing, using a "scientific" perspective this is absolutely meaningless. The mechanical effect must be the mechanical effect. You cannot skip the product whatever process you use.

Anything capable of mechanically creating a vague condition like "Die Alone" is much more complex then "Generates X newtons of force along Y vector" however you get there in your head and complexity for the same scale demands more energy. Since the scale is human in both cases well it should have been more then capable "scientifically" of killing Harry outright.

Its simply the simplest explanation that the magic of "Die Alone" is not operating on anything like physics.

Harry thinks "fire blast in this direction" and a fire blast comes out. It still interacts with the world like fire (unless he focuses his will and gives more magic to make it not act like that). Remember his shield that got his hand burned when he was fighting Mavra's minions?

That was a flamethrower from a Renfield.

However what you are thinking of is true but your interpretation is entirely backwards. Magic first, and sometimes its results are simply describable in terms of physics. The more replicable the results the more this is so. Harry doesn't need a medium to create force (nor is he using one with his "pure force" statements) or anything that physics indisputably and absolutely requires to actually use force, but once he uses magic to create whatever condition of course the force still acts according to physics.

Weird...I can choose all of them just fine.

"Supportable" IE can be said to be either true or likely true based upon evidence in the text. The description of the Fetches and the wink are the primary evidence Mab was behind the whole situation ergo ordered Molly kidnapped.

The others while its possible say the Gatekeeper given what we know was acting against Outsiders/Nemesis, but we cannot confirm this over say he's just one of the good guys and wanted to save a promising young girl from getting executed. Or what the text suggests with Rashid poking things with a Harry shaped stick. Or all of this at once.

The various elemental systems are simply mental crutches to help wizards focus their effects more clearly. For most wizards, if they can think of a blast as “fire” rather than “the ramifications of thermonuclear force,” they're more likely to pull it off successfully.

Harry uses the "classical" elemental system because that's what he's grown up with and that fits his personality. Theoretically he could use any kind of system. Heck, he could use Mage:the Awakenings Arcana system if he wanted!

It's purely a mental construct. Just something to help him focus (like his blasting rod and staff).

Seem my previous comment about the method not mattering. The problem is that he seems to think fire "exists" which is at best imprecise and at worst wrong.

Fire is the action of something burning. Harry evidently doesn't use anything other then heat which is only 1/4 parts. Even grant oxygen as omnipresent and handwaving the reaction as catalyzed by magic he still needs fuel. Actual you know matter to be burned.

So either Harry is converting energy into matter (and handling nuke level forces to do so) or he's drawing up fuel from somewhere. Which has already been specified in the Dresdenverse with a particular method.

Namely Harry should be leaving snotty globs of ectoplasm all over the place since when he stops putting magic into it to transform ectoplasm into something flammable. Conscious or not fire is only a particular and specific thing, it can't be made just however.

The real answer is I just don't think Jim cares that much. I have exactly and precisely zero problems with that, but it like someone said earlier in this thread all the "doing business with physics" is more like a mobster shakedown then some harmonious relationship.

Physics are conditional and limited in scope within a greater cosmology. That's more or less the opposite of IRL physics. Of course this just comes with the territory, once you have magic and souls are verifiable phenomena were already well off the reservation. Not that there's anything wrong with it physics is hideous and ugly as a story which is why it is always always always ignored most often without even a handwave, but it needs to be kept in mind.

[lord_khaine]

Also note that because Harry understands the idea of a symbol as something one can believe in, he's able to channel magic into a pentacle to hold off a vampire. It's another form of the same thing--the intangible thought requires a focus. In the case of evocation, that focus is a natural element, such as fire.

Thats not an act of magic, its an act of faith, Harry just uses the symbol of what he belives in.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Thats not an act of magic, its an act of faith, Harry just uses the symbol of what he belives in.

Harry explicitly calls it out as magic. Nothing so sophisticated as evocation, just something more raw, but still magic.

He speculates that the power Michael wields through Amoracchius is similar, but Bob thinks it might be something totally different altogether. (As I recall, anyhow.)

[lord_khaine]

Harry explicitly calls it out as magic. Nothing so sophisticated as evocation, just something more raw, but still magic.

No he doesnt, he says its the belief in magic that lets him do so, and that its the same thing that allows other people to hurt and repulse vampires with a cross.

[Soras Teva Gee]

The differences between faith, magic, and divine power seem are not entirely clear. I suspect because Jim was originally going to downplay it and then decided later that God with a big G was an actual factual existence in the Dresdenverse.

Which makes what exactly the swords are running on an open question. I lean to them being outright divine power given that they work on Outsiders same as anything else.

[123456789blaaa]

Yes much was my conclusion at both times. We've seen Harry about to sling a Death Curse and he called it a Death Curse by name. Given the level of exclusiveness I have to think nothing but a Death Curse is a death curse.

That feeling you get when you type the exact opposite of what you were trying to say ><.

I meant that in GP he used the spell (because it was so powerfull) but there he made it a death curse (for the qualitative difference) but in the fight with Tessa he used the spell but didn't make it a death curse.

Nrg. Am I making sense?

<snip>

Before we continue I'd like to clear up something.

I believe that in the Dresdenverse magic operates on physics. It does this because the author said it does.

It may seem like it doesn't to our limited perspective but it does because of the sheer power of WoJ.

It is handwavy and you could even call it bad writing.

This does not matter when talking about how magic in the universe of the DF works. The author said it does and so it does in-universe.

Are we in agreement on this?

[lord_khaine]

I meant that in GP he used the spell (because it was so powerfull) but there he made it a death curse (for the qualitative difference) but in the fight with Tessa he used the spell but didn't make it a death curse.

Nrg. Am I making sense?

None at all

I think you are misunderstanding the whole part of a death curse, namely that its so powerfull because casting it consumes your life, meaning that it cant be a death curse when the caster survives casting it.

[Mauve Shirt]

In GP Harry was going to put all of his life into the spell, making it a Death Curse by expending all of his energy. He wasn't thinking "This is my death curse" but he was thinking "This one is going to kill me so I'm going to take them down with me." His Godmother prevented him from dying. I don't recall him doing the same in SmF.

[Anderlith]

Only one writer I know of can create a totally cohesive magic system without any handwaving. Brandon Sanderson.

Jim Butcher is writing about something that in his own character's words say that its a crap shoot sometimes. His magic deals in things that cannot be accurately measured or quantified. Willpower, talent, metareality, & self conviction & doubt. All trying to emulate an old archaic belief system. I mean seriously, let some things be handwaved

[123456789blaaa]

None at all

I think you are misunderstanding the whole part of a death curse, namely that its so powerfull because casting it consumes your life, meaning that it cant be a death curse when the caster survives casting it.

No no I understand what a death curse is. I'm just not phrasing my point correctly. Let me try again:

What exactly is a death curse? Is it any spell which requires enough energy to kill the caster? Or do you need to specifically think "I'm going to do a death curse"?

I was thinking that during the ball in GP Harry specifically wanted the "pyrofeugo" spell to be a death curse (Sure as Mauve Shirt said he didn't specifically think "death curse" but Harry makes a lot of mistakes in the early books. For example, thinking summoning demons was against the seventh law. Probably Jim Butcher hadn't though of death curses by then). Then, when he used it in the fight against Tessa he used it as a normal spell (hey Soras, when Harry used it in the fight with Tessa did it act like it did in GP? That is, did it jump from Denarian to denarian?).

Also, I find it reasonably plausible considering what we know of death curses and magic in the series that someone could bring back a wizard from the brink of death before they died after casting a death curse (This was one of the explanations for how Simon could have cast his death curse per WoJ and still be Cowl. The theory was that Kumori ressurected him with her necromancy).

Only one writer I know of can create a totally cohesive magic system without any handwaving. Brandon Sanderson.

Jim Butcher is writing about something that in his own character's words say that its a crap shoot sometimes. His magic deals in things that cannot be accurately measured or quantified. Willpower, talent, metareality, & self conviction & doubt. All trying to emulate an old archaic belief system. I mean seriously, let some things be handwaved

I'd be totally willing to do that if the author hadn't explicitly said that his magic system obeys the laws of physics.

Really, though I could offer a bunch of explanations for why magic seemingly doesn't obey the laws of physics in the series but I'm not dedicated to it. Since we don't really have all the info on magic in the series (or even probably most of it) none of my "explanations" would be more than educated guesses.

Mostly I'm just arguing that they do obey the laws in-universe. The specifics don't really matter (though the reasons for how they do are fun to speculate on).

[Anderlith]

NonNeutonian Fluids are supposed to obey the laws of physics but they don't seem to. They found a shortcut. So did magic

[Philistine]

I'd be totally willing to do that if the author hadn't explicitly said that his magic system obeys the laws of physics.

You know, various people through the decades have claimed that Star Trek's "science" was firmly rooted in real-world scientific theory as well; in the case of that franchise it almost always amounted to merely using the name of a given concept, particle, or theory du jour with little (or more usually no) understanding of the actual properties of the thing they were pretending to discuss. Of course in that case the writers' desire to cloak themselves in the appearance of "doing science" by peppering their dialogue with real-world scientific terms makes it easy for us to identify when they've used those terms incorrectly, whereas Butcher's (almost certainly intentional) imprecision in that area makes it much harder to definitively say the same of the Dresdenverse - but the precedent is established nonetheless.

[Mauve Shirt]

I'm putting off finishing Wheel of Time 5, so thread, tell me which Dresden book I should reread.

[Anderlith]

I'm putting off finishing Wheel of Time 5, so thread, tell me which Dresden book I should reread.

All of them...

[Tavar]

I'm putting off finishing Wheel of Time 5, so thread, tell me which Dresden book I should reread.

Death Masks can be nice: after rereading it I remembered just how personable Nic can come off as. The latter books don't really show that side.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Death Masks can be nice: after rereading it I remembered just how personable Nic can come off as. The latter books don't really show that side.

You really can't go wrong with Denarians.

Alternately, for nostalgia's sake, go back to Grave Peril and see just how far we've come. Remember when rubbing out Bianca was a big deal? Those were the days...

[Philistine]

To be fair, it was a fairly important point in the overarching plot of the series, what with the whole "kicked off the Vampire War" thing. And the vampirization of Susan.

[lord_khaine]

What exactly is a death curse? Is it any spell which requires enough energy to kill the caster? Or do you need to specifically think "I'm going to do a death curse"?

Im pretty sure its the last part, because i dont even think the first bit is possibel. As i recall, when Harry got worn down enough from using to much magic, then he just wasnt able to do any more.

I was thinking that during the ball in GP Harry specifically wanted the "pyrofeugo" spell to be a death curse (Sure as Mauve Shirt said he didn't specifically think "death curse" but Harry makes a lot of mistakes in the early books. For example, thinking summoning demons was against the seventh law. Probably Jim Butcher hadn't though of death curses by then). Then, when he used it in the fight against Tessa he used it as a normal spell (hey Soras, when Harry used it in the fight with Tessa did it act like it did in GP? That is, did it jump from Denarian to denarian?).

Having read said chapter though im now 100% certain that the pyrofeugo spell has nothing to do with a death curse, besides making a lot of things die in fire
Its quite specificaly fueled by Harry's pain and despair over the situation, and we are actualy told how the magical torrent of fire slowly dies out as Harry runs out of "juice" to power the spell.

Also, I find it reasonably plausible considering what we know of death curses and magic in the series that someone could bring back a wizard from the brink of death before they died after casting a death curse (This was one of the explanations for how Simon could have cast his death curse per WoJ and still be Cowl. The theory was that Kumori ressurected him with her necromancy).

And i find it impossibel from what we know of magic, a wizards life is used to fuel the death curse, so he is certain to die from casting it.
And since there wont be someone on the brink of death, then there wont be much for the necromancer to do.

Still, that doesnt mean Simon could not simply have faked casting his death curse, something that should have been simple enough if there wasnt anyone left alive to tell about it.

[jindra34]

On Death Curses: From what I understand (part of it coming from the RPG books) a Death Curse isn't just a spell that uses every bit of strength a wizard has, it uses all that plus the power that comes from the wizard's death, which means leaving nothing behind and probably having no ghost. Which given what Corpsetaker was doing post-death might actually explain why Grevanne didn't have/use a Death Curse.

[Soras Teva Gee]

You know, various people through the decades have claimed that Star Trek's "science" was firmly rooted in real-world scientific theory as well; in the case of that franchise it almost always amounted to merely using the name of a given concept, particle, or theory du jour with little (or more usually no) understanding of the actual properties of the thing they were pretending to discuss. Of course in that case the writers' desire to cloak themselves in the appearance of "doing science" by peppering their dialogue with real-world scientific terms makes it easy for us to identify when they've used those terms incorrectly, whereas Butcher's (almost certainly intentional) imprecision in that area makes it much harder to definitively say the same of the Dresdenverse - but the precedent is established nonetheless.

This.

Pretty much scientific accuracy cannot be declared it can only be practiced.

[The Glyphstone]

On Death Curses: From what I understand (part of it coming from the RPG books) a Death Curse isn't just a spell that uses every bit of strength a wizard has, it uses all that plus the power that comes from the wizard's death, which means leaving nothing behind and probably having no ghost. Which given what Corpsetaker was doing post-death might actually explain why Grevanne didn't have/use a Death Curse.

I thought it was said that Grevanne didn't unleash his death curse because he couldn't believe he would actually fail/die until it was too late. They're not something you can throw on impulse or unconsciously, by evidence given to us.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

To be fair, it was a fairly important point in the overarching plot of the series, what with the whole "kicked off the Vampire War" thing. And the vampirization of Susan.

Absolutely; I remember putting the book down and going "WHAT THE FLIP JUST HAPPENED??"

I particularly find it amusing that by the time we get to Changes, Harry has escalated from wiping out a vampiress of the Red Court (and minions) to genociding the Red Court.

[Philistine]

This.

Pretty much scientific accuracy cannot be declared it can only be practiced.

To clarify: I really don't consider "lack of scientific rigor" to be a point against either Butcher or the series. I'm aware of it, but it's simply not relevant to the reasons I enjoy the books.

I do consider it a serious knock against Star Trek, but that's due to that franchise's presentation - largely by the fandom, admittedly - as actually incorporating (or even being about) real science.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

All this Star Trek talk reminds me of the most pressing question to ever face Dresden fans...

Which Trek Molly is best Trek Molly?

My vote's on Chekhov Molly.

[frozum]

1) I think Dresden either a)summons or b)creates Fire fueled by his body's will or endurance, since he says afterwards "fire otherwise behaves like fire" after it's created. Pretty sure that if he threw a Lightning Bolt at you ("Fulminos!") you'd be perfectly safe in a typical car. Pity about the magic causing all the high-tech stuff to short out, though...

2) Regarding the Swords of the Cross: perhaps that's a misnomer, as it's implied that they are fueled by Faith but not just the faith of Christians, but probably those of all true believers of the Big Three (my take on it), and that adds up to billions.

After the OOTS is finished, looking forward to the Giant doing the Dresden Files, stick-stye.