She Blinded Me with Science! (Magitek That Doesn't Make Me Cry Myself To Sleep)

[Moonwolf727]

Hmm. Something that has always bothered me about Gramarie has reared its head again. I love Yggdratechture, I really really do, but something about the aesthetic has preplexed me for a while.

I can understand that when you make the opening to a box into a semi-space the inside will look like a larger version of the inside of the box. But what happens when you do it to a doorway that doesn't lead to a room? What are the walls and floor made of? What color is it? I realise that you can very easily apply a bit of Imachination and just not disbelieve it to make it look however you like but this has irked me for a while.

[Demented Dragon]

Hmm. Something that has always bothered me about Gramarie has reared its head again. I love Yggdratechture, I really really do, but something about the aesthetic has preplexed me for a while.

I can understand that when you make the opening to a box into a semi-space the inside will look like a larger version of the inside of the box. But what happens when you do it to a doorway that doesn't lead to a room? What are the walls and floor made of? What color is it? I realise that you can very easily apply a bit of Imachination and just not disbelieve it to make it look however you like but this has irked me for a while.

For some reason I imagined it as empty white space, but that's just because I couldn't think of anything else... And I'd actually considered using IMACH 101 for it. Possibly playing in a game soon with that as my specialty so quite curious XD

[Mithril Leaf]

Standard spectroconstruction can't make skill checks.

Of course this is taken care of nicely for Alchemists.

[yugi24862]

On the ebb generator discussion, My preferred ebb generator is what I call a Tesla coil, which I just designed to get a cheapish ebb generator at 7th level. Heres the basic schematic.

Tesla Coil Generator
First, get a 15x15x15 space. It works best in its own room, but if you have time to set up you can do it in any space of the right size. In the direct centre of the room, on a 7.5ft tall podium, you place a silver/silver transformer. The silver out is keyed to a bought scroll of Electric Maximised fireball (I assume I can buy one, since we start in Arcantrx), which I UMD if necessary. Surrounding the central podium is 12 other podiums, 6 on the same level as the centre, 3 above and 3 below. On each of the lesser podiums is a Copper/Wood transformer. This means there is 12 5ft nets fully surrounding the central podium. Finally, there is also a heuristical circuit enclosing the entire room.

Once started, by either a 6th level scroll being cast at the silver input or 6 spell level of Eldritch blasts (so two 6th level Gramarists), a Lightning Fireball explodes from the central podium, and then is neutralized by the surrounding copper transformers. This produces 9 ebbs of energy per transformer , so 108 ebbs total. 8 ebbs is used every round on the silver output, leaving a round 100 ebbs spare for any use.

[Hanuman]

Standard spectroconstruction can't make skill checks.

What's the best way to make skill checks with the gramarie then?
Craft checks are probably the most interesting as a gramarie can construct industrial factories, and creation of goods is def. the most powerful thing a gramarist can do.

[Necroticplague]

On the ebb generator discussion, My preferred ebb generator is what I call a Tesla coil, which I just designed to get a cheapish ebb generator at 7th level. Heres the basic schematic.

Tesla Coil Generator
First, get a 15x15x15 space. It works best in its own room, but if you have time to set up you can do it in any space of the right size. In the direct centre of the room, on a 7.5ft tall podium, you place a silver/silver transformer. The silver out is keyed to a bought scroll of Electric Maximised fireball (I assume I can buy one, since we start in Arcantrx), which I UMD if necessary. Surrounding the central podium is 12 other podiums, 6 on the same level as the centre, 3 above and 3 below. On each of the lesser podiums is a Copper/Wood transformer. This means there is 12 5ft nets fully surrounding the central podium. Finally, there is also a heuristical circuit enclosing the entire room.

Once started, by either a 6th level scroll being cast at the silver input or 6 spell level of Eldritch blasts (so two 6th level Gramarists), a Lightning Fireball explodes from the central podium, and then is neutralized by the surrounding copper transformers. This produces 9 ebbs of energy per transformer , so 108 ebbs total. 8 ebbs is used every round on the silver output, leaving a round 100 ebbs spare for any use.

Combine with Extradimensional Spell, then re-set up a copy of the CopperIns on the Ethereal, and you've doubled your output (slightly more, since price in ebbs doesn't double) for the same amount of space and ebbs needed to jumpstart/maintain.

[Arcanist]

Combine with Extradimensional Spell, then re-set up a copy of the CopperIns on the Ethereal, and you've doubled your output (slightly more, since price in ebbs doesn't double) for the same amount of space and ebbs needed to jumpstart/maintain.

You mean Transdimensional spell right?

Who says Gramarist don't have potential for combat?

Spoiler

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Anywho! I've been thinking for a while "Yeah, the Gramarist is meant to be in a world builder type campaign, but as it is, it is completely incapable of combat on even the most basic levels." If the Gramarist is meant to be a Science major with a magical twist, why not just give it some The easiest solution to this would be adding class features to allow it to function in a standard game without effecting the class to much. Making these class features based on Skill check of their discipline seems like it would make it a little bit more thematically without making them to overpowered. Just to name some other ideas (besides Biollurgy). I'd also like to politely point out that this is partially based on the immediate magic concept, all of them can be performed a number of times equal to the users Int modifier.

Alchemetry (Su): As a move action, a Gramarist specializing in Alchemetry can alter the structure of any metal based weapon they are currently wielding into either Adamantine, Alchemical Silver, Cold Iron or Mithral with a +1 Enchantment bonus on it. Performing this requires a Diplomacy check of at least 10. For every 10 additional points for which you beat the check, you gain an additional +1 bonus to a maximum of +5. This effect last for 3 rounds per Gramarist level and can only be used on one weapon at a time.

Arcanodynamics (Ex): As a move action, a Gramarist specializing in Arcanodynamics can alter or enhance the energy discharged from any source of damage to Cold, Fire, Electric, or Acid. You can also increase the amount of energy discharge by an additional d6 of damage by making a Use Magic Device check of at least 10. For every 10 additional points for which you beat the check, you increase it by another d6 to a maximum of 5d6. This effect last for 24 hours or until changed.

Biollurgy (Ex): When attacking a target, a Gramarist specialized in Biollurgy can attack a target's exposed vitals, causing them to experience more damage than they would normally. By making a Heal check of at least 10 you can deal an additional d6 of damage to your target. For every 10 additional points for which you beat the check, you increase it by 2d6 up to a maximum of 11d6.

Eldrikinetics (Su): As a standard action, a Gramarist specialized in Eldrikinetics can spontaneously generate 100 push upon any touched object by making a Concentration check of at least 10. For every 10 additional points for which you beat the check, you can apply an additional 100 push upon an object up to a maximum of 500 push. This push is sustained for 5 rounds per Gramarist level.

Geoccultism (Su): As a standard action, a Gramarist specialized in Geoccultism can cause sudden environmental shifts either whipping up windstorms, causing cold snaps or heralding heat waves. By making a Survival check of at least 10 you can alter the temperature in either direction by 20. For every additional 10 points for which you beat the check you can alter it another 20 degrees as low as Unearthly cold or Burning Heat. Alternatively you can create a wind forces; By making a Survival check of at least 10 you can increase or decrease the wind force by 20mph. For every additional 10 points for which you beat the check you can alter it by another 20mph up to a maximum of 180mph, furthermore by making a Survival check of at least 20 you can alter a windstorm into Rainstorms or Thunderstorms during any condition, Snowstorms or Hailstorms during temperatures below 30° F, and Sandstorms in a desert terrain. This effect last for 10 minutes per Gramarist level, extends out to 1 mile per 2 Gramarist levels (with a base of 1 mile at 1st level) and you are immune to any effect you cause.

Heuristicism (Su): As a move action, a Gramarist specialized in Heuristicism can link their minds to either a small group of people or a series of Heuristic Circuits. By making an Autohypnosis check of at least 10 you can touch a willing creature or circuit and gain the ability to sense everything that would occur within that creatures line of sight or within 30ft of that circuit. The Gramarist must be within 1 mile of the circuit or creature to be able to gain the benefits of this ability. For every additional 10 points for which you beat this check you can connect to another creature or circuit up to a maximum of 5 in total. This effect last 1 day per Gramarist level.

Imachination (Ex): As a standard action, a Gramarist specialized in Imachination can create a series of false sensory information for targets to interpret. The Gramarist can instantly set up a number of Imachination principles to create any number of disguises with the drawback being that only a small number of creatures can actually interact with these illusions. You can set these Illusions up by making a Bluff check of at least 10 to effect 2 creatures. For every additional 10 points for which you beat this check you can effect another 2 creatures up to a maximum of 10. This effect last a 10 minutes per Gramarist level.

Kaleidomantics (Ex): As an immediate action, a Gramarist specialized in Kaleidomantics can instantly set up a single surface Kaleidomantic filter by making a Spot check of at least 10. For each additional 10 points for which you beat this check you can set up an additional Kaleidomantic filter up to a maximum of 5 filters. These filters only last for 1 round per Gramarist level before dissolving away.

Yggdratecture (Su): As an Immediate action, a Gramarist specialized in Yggdratecture can momentarily tear into a portal through the nearest transitive plane to arrive at a new destination on his original plane (that is, the plane he originally performed this on). By making a Forgery check of at least 10, you can move out 10ft in any direction with a flat surface that you can stand on. For each additional 10 points for which you beat this check you can move another 10ft up to a maximum of 50ft.

Anyone have any ideas to make these less supernatural-y?

[Hanuman]

Alright fellas, I'm about to make a BIG project using Gramarie, and I may need your help as a lot of you are gramarist jedi by now.


The Project:

My next campaign is themed to Earthbound/Mother3, there will be a few factors to line up the BBEG but I need a campaign-wide miniboss, and that boss will be using Gramarie to gain major advantages over the entire campaign where previously there was no gramarie.

As the characters progress the BBEG miniboss will grow in power, changing the world so the players will travel through it's wake, seeing changes that happen recently, this process will be more and more difficult to stop until it gets to high level gramarie.

Thoughts for how this should evolve and change the campaign for this BBEG miniboss' rise to power and wealth?

[Necroticplague]

You mean Transdimensional spell right?

Whichever one allows yo to hit target on the Ethereal.

[Draken]

Gramarists have plenty of potential for combat, they just need to build the right things for that.

[Morcleon]

Gramarists have plenty of potential for combat, they just need to build the right things for that.

With a bit of time, a couple gramarists, and the right principles, you could easily have a weapon dealing hundreds of dice of damage per round at level 1. Or a weapon that just spams SoD spells many times per round. >.>

[Thirdtwin]

Wow, this is an impressive system. I'm honestly rather intimidated by its depth, which is worrisome because my DM in an upcoming game wants us all to make use of gramarie to one degree or another. That leads me to my question. Initially I was particularly intrigued by the geoccultism discipline; the idea of altering the very biomes of a locale (with a big hunk of metal I guess) sounded like the bee's knees. I sort of began visualizing my potential character as bringing about something akin to the Green Revolution, producing more food more efficiently so that maybe commoners could find something to do besides dirt farming. But upon deeper analysis of the actual effects of geoccultism, I'm not quite certain I can achieve that goal through those methods. So I guess my question is, what are some good ways to harness gramarie to do that?

[Omnicrat]

EI-driven chassis slave-farmers.

Or just instinctual chassis that farm and are unintelligent.

[Necroticplague]

Wow, this is an impressive system. I'm honestly rather intimidated by its depth, which is worrisome because my DM in an upcoming game wants us all to make use of gramarie to one degree or another. That leads me to my question. Initially I was particularly intrigued by the geoccultism discipline; the idea of altering the very biomes of a locale (with a big hunk of metal I guess) sounded like the bee's knees. I sort of began visualizing my potential character as bringing about something akin to the Green Revolution, producing more food more efficiently so that maybe commoners could find something to do besides dirt farming. But upon deeper analysis of the actual effects of geoccultism, I'm not quite certain I can achieve that goal through those methods. So I guess my question is, what are some good ways to harness gramarie to do that?

Feature, you can use up metal (or ebbs) to instantly renew them. Like if you have a Forest, you could have it renew all of its fungi every day, making you highly capable of feeding a lot of people as long as they don't mind eating mushrooms. Or swamps are excellent for growing rice, while wetland could grow rice as a feature. You could use bizzarechitecture to increase yeild/amount of space (by combining with another pole so inside the architecture is something farmable, not city).

On a related note: minor typo: under acid bog, the phrase "acid bog bog" Icomes up, i'm pretty sure that's not intentional.

[Kellus]

Hey people that like gramarie!

I'm working on a Mark 2 of this material for the new thread we're going to need shortly, and I have a little free time to work on it. The things I'm definitely going to add are:

• Feats
• New base class (the sapper)
• 400-level Theories
• Some small fixes and tweaks I've been working on for the last couple months on-and-off

What I want to know from you is what extra material would you most like to see during this brief spurt of productivity before I get drawn back into exam hell? Prestige classes? Racial substitution levels? A new discipline? If anything gets a ton of traction, I'll see what I can do before we reach the end of page 50!

And as always, stay awesome

[Omnicrat]

There seems to be a big push to not have spells in silverouts. For example, without a house ruling, a silverout can get infinite iron, which can be used to make infinity silverouts and other principles. I had a post a long time ago about what is specifically needed to replace spellouts without loosing too much.

[Arkhaic]

What I'd like to see is a class that can whip up temporary gramaric creations—doesn't do large permanent stuff, probably has *more* available principles, and is more suited to adventuring.
Edit: Possibly with a way to power outputs with a swift action.

[Kellus]

There seems to be a big push to not have spells in silverouts. For example, without a house ruling, a silverout can get infinite iron, which can be used to make infinity silverouts and other principles. I had a post a long time ago about what is specifically needed to replace spellouts without loosing too much.

Silver for spells is getting the boot. Too much potential for abuse. It's going to be tied to life force (hit points) instead, along with two other new transformer types to cover the difference.

[RFLS]

Hey people that like gramarie!

I'm working on a Mark 2 of this material for the new thread we're going to need shortly, and I have a little free time to work on it. The things I'm definitely going to add are:

• Feats
• New base class (the sapper)
• 400-level Theories
• Some small fixes and tweaks I've been working on for the last couple months on-and-off

What I want to know from you is what extra material would you most like to see during this brief spurt of productivity before I get drawn back into exam hell? Prestige classes? Racial substitution levels? A new discipline? If anything gets a ton of traction, I'll see what I can do before we reach the end of page 50!

And as always, stay awesome

=DDDDD The level of excitement I have for this right now is astounding. Is this a strictly one-person show, or can I help somehow?

[Omnicrat]

If your stuff is good enough he'll put it in, based on Amechra giving him stuff.

[Necroticplague]

If I could offer a suggestion, possibly related to one of those new transformers talked about, if one is based on magic than it seems sensible enough for psionics to also work. Given how psionics is obsessed with crystals, it seems like a crystal would make a logical choice. But then, what to turn the one for sound into? Possibly glass (used in soundproofing, but produces harmonics if set right, still is a material that can't be made using alchemetry)

[Coryen]

Hey, glad to hear you're back. I really like the system you have here, and recently played in a short campaign using it as the primary ruleset.

My group and I had some observations about the system as a whole.
For the record, we had an Alchemitrist, Dungeonjammer, and a Graughtsman as our group, with accompanying specialties, and I played a Geoccultist with full levels in Gramarist. We had control of the world within about 12 levels. The campaign setting was a Dyson Sphere shortly thereafter.

1. Too Few Options - We had a group of 4 Gramarists (One was multi-class) and among us there was way too much overlap. Each of us taking a discipline another had was pointless, as they could use the discipline twice as well. Plus a character gets what, 4-5 Tier 1 options? While they can have that many skills, they might want to spend those very generous skill points on character, and campaign related skills, and knowledges.
Too many good things are reserved for Magisterial level. Its like gameplay doesn't begin until 7th level. Many of the disciplines get their major things at that time, like Geoccultists getting the ability to meaningfully contribute!
More options at each tier, especially at the first tier, would make that less of a hassle.

2. I noticed too few overall interactions between some of the Disciplines and the Ebb mechanics. Some disciplines used it extensively, but others had no integration at all. (Alchemetry, Biollurgy, Imachination, Kaleidomantics, Yggdratecture) It seemed like a decent way to add additional synergy between some the principles, and taking Arcanodynamics means you need to take the other Ebb using disciplines to justify it. (and vice versa)

3. Feats - We all agreed an Extra Principle feat would be fantastic! And feat options in general were lacking. As a Geoccultism specialist in the game, I had no incentive to take feats other than ones that boosted my Survival skill, which did take me until level 12 or so to take all the ones we could find, but it was pretty dull. Our Dungeonjammer didn't have any problems, but that one solves itself: he can take combat-oriented feats.

4. Some Principles being useless - Geoc 101 is really mostly a vanity tech, as it really allows you to have a nice base, or to ruin a town or environment.
Granted, the 2nd tier is amazing, but class feature taxes seem lame. Kald 207, for example, is garbage. Blue stops water? this is neat! Oh wait, it doesn't stop any water that actually exists in the world... Orange stops gasses! Wow with that I could make a high-altitude base! No, wait, a stiff wind obliterates it. No really, just sneezing destroys it. As does a jet stream, or the wings of most dragons, etc.

5. Prestige classes? Really? - Most of us, except myself, were drawn to a disciplines prestige class because for many of them, the PrC was a logical extension of what the Discipline should be able to do. The Geoccultism PrC made no sense to me; I styled my character a 'Future-Druid'; Wuxia fighting was the opposite of what I mostly did, which was terraforming and Architecture, so I stayed the base class. The other players said their PrC was essential. The Alch specialist liked his class and the fluff behind it, but others didn't see the draw; the Yggd specialist liked his class, but hated the prereqs since they are super-specific. The Biolurgy specialist liked his PrC, but found the two mechanical systems a bit overwhelming at times. I was fine with plain gramarist, but it could use some more options itself.

Granted, these were the things we talked about during and after the game. Overall, we liked the system, and it can integrate with normal D&D play, but it lacks support from Feats, and relies too heavily on PrC's I think. There is some cool stuff here, and with a bit more content, could be pretty easily playable. Our game lasted about 4-6 sessions (I don't recall exactly how many) but it was tons of fun working out how we were next going to accomplish a task (Like warfare, dungeon crawling, and urban development) with the tools we had, and our only complaint was that the solution, until level 7, was 'Let our Soon-to-be-Dungeon-Jammer just steamroll in and use violence or the threat of violence, while the rest of us sit back and drink tea.'

[Arcanist]

Gramarists have plenty of potential for combat, they just need to build the right things for that.

You have to completely build yourself up with feats and combinations of Gramarie to actually be able to function in combat (which at 1st level, is impossible to do). No, I'd rather the class be relatively idiotproof to the point where even if the Gramarist is caught with his/her pants down, they can still potentially survive. A Gramarist caught with no time to work has little chance of survival, which is why I suggest allowing the Gramarist to spontaneously set up a principle under their discipline that last a limited amount of time (an hour? 10 minutes? 5 rounds?). It shows that they rushed through the process of setting up the Principle and thus it is unstable and will last only long enough to protect the Gramarist. After a while of thinking over the originally suggest class features or Immediate Gramaries to be:

Immediate Gramarie: While working under pressure, a 1st level Gramarist can spontaneously set up a single principle to defend themselves with. You set this Principle up as if you were doing so normally, except the Preparation time is changed to a Full-round action and it last for 1 minute per level of Gramarist. You can do this once per day per Int modifier.

Hey people that like gramarie!

I'm working on a Mark 2 of this material for the new thread we're going to need shortly, and I have a little free time to work on it. The things I'm definitely going to add are:

• Feats
• New base class (the sapper)
• 400-level Theories
• Some small fixes and tweaks I've been working on for the last couple months on-and-off

What I want to know from you is what extra material would you most like to see during this brief spurt of productivity before I get drawn back into exam hell? Prestige classes? Racial substitution levels? A new discipline? If anything gets a ton of traction, I'll see what I can do before we reach the end of page 50!

And as always, stay awesome

Just the above class feature (or your take on it), the 400 Theories and your minor fixes. I mostly need the 400 Theories to know how devastating a world powered by Epic Gramarie can be. If High powered Gramarie destroys worlds and turns them into the world of Fallout then what can the 400 Theories do?

The feats, extra prestige classes, Racial substitutions and potential for a new discipline would all just be gravy

Whichever one allows yo to hit target on the Ethereal.

Yep, Transdimensional spell

With a bit of time, a couple gramarists, and the right principles, you could easily have a weapon dealing hundreds of dice of damage per round at level 1. Or a weapon that just spams SoD spells many times per round. >.>

Heuristicism is now my favorite principle because of this, mostly because of the Dreamason. At 9th level, you can make a compact minigun if the sustained motion thing that Kellus mentioned still applies

Random blueprint

Spoiler

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Name: Micro Minigun
Principles: YGGD 101, HEUR 101, HEUR 245, ARCD 204, ELDK 219.
Prestige class: Dreamason.
Time: 13 hours.
Patent: Arcanist
Summary:

This combines my three favorite Disciplines into one of my favorite weapons and makes it into effectively the size of a handgun... Yes, you make a handgun minigun... Which is like a machine gun with more ammo... Hmm... I should really reconsider my taste in weaponry... ANYWAY!

Take one Semi-space and put it into a small container and put 8 Ballistic Engines inside of it with a network of Golden Transformers with a number of Continual light rocks to power them. Then you connect the transformers to the engines to supply power and place a control point to connect and disconnect the power to fire off your rounds. How you reload is entirely up to you. I actually like the idea of making clips for it that can be connected as needed to reload.

[Amechra]

Silver for spells is getting the boot. Too much potential for abuse. It's going to be tied to life force (hit points) instead, along with two other new transformer types to cover the difference.

FINALLY!

The prodigal brewer has returned!

Now, I have a secret plot I need to share with you...

[Arcanist]

Anyone have any ideas how to make a YGGD Semi-space able to endure a Sunmetal explosion... Happening everywhere at once?

"VAULT-TEC! RESERVE YOURS TODAY!"

[Morcleon]

Anyone have any ideas how to make a YGGD Semi-space able to endure a Sunmetal explosion... Happening everywhere at once?

"VAULT-TEC! RESERVE YOURS TODAY!"

Turn it into a demiplane? That removed the "destroyed by damage" thing...

[Arcanist]

Turn it into a demiplane? That removed the "destroyed by damage" thing...

And once again, I overlook the most obvious solution

Now that I have the basest components for my Vaults how will we make such an environment hospitable for a number of people to live in for a minimum of 900 years (You never know... Your entire plane might be uninhabitable by the Nuclear Holocaust or Viral Plague! ... IT COULD HAPPEN! ... "THINK VAULT-TEC!")

[Morcleon]

And once again, I overlook the most obvious solution

Now that I have the basest components for my Vaults how will we make such an environment hospitable for a number of people to live in for a minimum of 900 years (You never know... Your entire plane might be uninhabitable by the Nuclear Holocaust or Viral Plague! ... "THINK VAULT-TEC!)

Air: CO2 to O2 biostructure.
Water: Tiny portals to a freshwater place on the Elemental Plane of Water.
Food: SilverOuts of Create Food and Water
Shelter: Various GEOC and spectrocontruction.

Anything else?

[Arcanist]

Air: CO2 to O2 biostructure.
Water: Tiny portals to a freshwater place on the Elemental Plane of Water.
Food: SilverOuts of Create Food and Water
Shelter: Various GEOC and spectrocontruction.

Anything else?

... THINK VAULT-TEC! Seriously, what is with me and overlooking the blatantly obvious for things that I want to make?

[Volthawk]

Geoccultism will be useful here (especially if you don't want silver outputs which may be wise with the upcoming redesign), perhaps with multiple poles providing different things - streams, fountains or freshwater biomes for water; fungus or plants/animals grown on biomes for food; city biomes for homes (or just wood from tree-using biomes). Recycling air would be best supported by biollurgy (I mean, you could try to make a proper artificial ecosystem with the plants and animals and such, I guess, but biostructure converters are probably easier to control and calibrate...

Mind, this is less a vault and more a miniture world...would need a metric crapton of preparations to get the space too. It would also need a whole lot of metal to start with (ongoing costs can be paid for by ebbs)

Y'know, now I'm starting to have a proper look at it, I think geoccultism is my favourite discipline now (maybe tied with biollurgy).