The Swarm Arrives [3.5 Base Class-Zerg, Tyranids]

[Lix Lorn]

Ooooh, hope it goes well!

[Hat-Trick]

There's a PbP game that just got a DM for it that's completely based around this class. A Swarmlord and their swarm. I'll be the one playing the swarmlord, and I'm looking forward to it!

[Lix Lorn]

Very cool! Could I have a link to watch?

[Erik Vale]

Sure. I'll/I may run it [leaning towards will. Starting to get a plot biulding in my head.
Have a thread.
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=278226

[DrunkenMists]

Curiosity on some of the Abilities and "how powerful they can get"
This is PERSONAL SPECULATION: Please don't assume I'm the "last word" in any way or form. I'm not a very great theorycrafter.

Bonus Hit Dice: for Infested/Assimilated and Embraced

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{table]Level:|Gained
1|1HD, 1Level Warrior
2|1HD, 1Level Warrior
3|1HD, 1 Class Level
4|1HD, 1Level Warrior
5|1HD, 1Level Warrior
6|1HD, 1 Class Level
7|1HD, 1Level Warrior
8|1HD, 1Level Warrior
9|1HD, 1 Class Level
10|1HD, 1Level Warrior
11|1HD, 1Level Warrior
13|1HD, 1 Class Level
14|1HD, 1Level Warrior
15|1HD, 1Level Warrior
16|1HD, 1 Class Level
17|1HD, 1Level Warrior
18|1HD, 1Level Warrior
19|1HD, 1 Class Level
20|1HD, 1Level Warrior[/table]

So Assmuing your "infested" you can at max, 1 level of warrior. (+1bab+3fort...not much else), Unless for some reason, your behind level of your Swarmlord.
Assimilated can get 3, 2 warrior and 1 class level
Embraced 6, 4 warrior and 2 class level.

Power Level? By itself; it depends on the class levels taken for Assimilated and Embraced, Suggested is something that give alot early. (Factotum, Tome of Battle, magic of Incarnum, Aegis, etc. More Passive stuff)

Enchanced Ability:

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1 stat for every 2 points spent.. max's at 20...so thats 10stat points. This one is best left for Swarmlings, dump points and meeting minimum stats for feats/cl/etc. There are better things you can probably spend your points on.

Martial Expertise: (Based on if you don't have a class in it.)

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{table]Level:|Initiator Level|Gained
1|1|-
2|1|Manuver, Manuver Readied
3|2|-
4|2|Manuver
5|2|Manuver Readied
6|3|Manuver, Stance
7|3|
8|4|Manuver, Manuver Readied
9|4|
10|5|Manuver
11|5|Manuver Readied
12|6|Manuver, Stance
13|6|
14|7|Manuver, Manuver Readied
15|7|
16|8|Manuver
17|8|Manuver Readied
18|9|Manuver, Stance
19|9|
20|10|Manuver, Manuver Readied
[/table]

so at level 20 (assuming your Swarmlord is) you can at max gain: 10 Manuvers, 6 readied at a time on a Full Round Action, and 3 Stances. On the Brightside you do gain higher level ones as you go along, since your Initiator level does go up; but...it still max's out at half.

Spirit Force: Based on if you do not have a Caster/Manifester Level

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{table]Level:|ML/CL
1|-
2|-
3|1
4|-
5|-
6|2
7|-
8|-
9|3
10|-
11|-
12|4
13|-
14|-
15|5
16|-
17|6
18|-
19|-
20|7[/table]

This Max's out at level 7 Caster/manifester levels. which in sorcerer/psion speak is.. Level 3 Spells/Powers. and not alot of em.
There are some small bonus to this. If you are an infested, Assimilated, embraced. You can use this to boost your casting ability back to your normal sorcerer/psion abilities. A Swarmlord with a Glut of points could boost her knowns with some extras from psion and more Power Points; since it's a single PP pool. or generally just gain some basic Sorcerer Casting.
For your average character, unless you pick and choose certain lower level, no real ML/CL spells; it's not gonna do you to much.

These are the Main ones I wanted to see how they work out on paper.

Nothing here is going to run you for life. but put altogether; you do feel kinda gestaltly. Reasonably good at alot of things; but no master of it all.

That is..least till your swarmlord gets rolling and makes heavy use of HiveMindry and Buffing

Question:I noticed the Assimilated and Infested Template have a little blurb about a Swarmlord being able to "choose" something with those templates as a Swarmling; which they get bonus's for. How would this effect a assimilated player? (say if my swarmlord was level 9... and the player was ECL 9 (6 class, 3Assimilated Template)

[Lix Lorn]

Curiosity on some of the Abilities and "how powerful they can get"
This is PERSONAL SPECULATION: Please don't assume I'm the "last word" in any way or form. I'm not a very great theorycrafter.

Bonus Hit Dice: for Infested/Assimilated and Embraced

Spoiler

Show

{table]Level:|Gained
1|1HD, 1Level Warrior
2|1HD, 1Level Warrior
3|1HD, 1 Class Level
4|1HD, 1Level Warrior
5|1HD, 1Level Warrior
6|1HD, 1 Class Level
7|1HD, 1Level Warrior
8|1HD, 1Level Warrior
9|1HD, 1 Class Level
10|1HD, 1Level Warrior
11|1HD, 1Level Warrior
13|1HD, 1 Class Level
14|1HD, 1Level Warrior
15|1HD, 1Level Warrior
16|1HD, 1 Class Level
17|1HD, 1Level Warrior
18|1HD, 1Level Warrior
19|1HD, 1 Class Level
20|1HD, 1Level Warrior[/table]

So Assmuing your "infested" you can at max, 1 level of warrior. (+1bab+3fort...not much else), Unless for some reason, your behind level of your Swarmlord.
Assimilated can get 3, 2 warrior and 1 class level
Embraced 6, 4 warrior and 2 class level.

Power Level? By itself; it depends on the class levels taken for Assimilated and Embraced, Suggested is something that give alot early. (Factotum, Tome of Battle, magic of Incarnum, Aegis, etc. More Passive stuff)

Enchanced Ability:

Spoiler

Show

1 stat for every 2 points spent.. max's at 20...so thats 10stat points. This one is best left for Swarmlings, dump points and meeting minimum stats for feats/cl/etc. There are better things you can probably spend your points on.

Martial Expertise: (Based on if you don't have a class in it.)

Spoiler

Show

{table]Level:|Initiator Level|Gained
1|1|-
2|1|Manuver, Manuver Readied
3|2|-
4|2|Manuver
5|2|Manuver Readied
6|3|Manuver, Stance
7|3|
8|4|Manuver, Manuver Readied
9|4|
10|5|Manuver
11|5|Manuver Readied
12|6|Manuver, Stance
13|6|
14|7|Manuver, Manuver Readied
15|7|
16|8|Manuver
17|8|Manuver Readied
18|9|Manuver, Stance
19|9|
20|10|Manuver, Manuver Readied
[/table]

so at level 20 (assuming your Swarmlord is) you can at max gain: 10 Manuvers, 6 readied at a time on a Full Round Action, and 3 Stances. On the Brightside you do gain higher level ones as you go along, since your Initiator level does go up; but...it still max's out at half.

Spirit Force: Based on if you do not have a Caster/Manifester Level

Spoiler

Show

{table]Level:|ML/CL
1|-
2|-
3|1
4|-
5|-
6|2
7|-
8|-
9|3
10|-
11|-
12|4
13|-
14|-
15|5
16|-
17|6
18|-
19|-
20|7[/table]

This Max's out at level 7 Caster/manifester levels. which in sorcerer/psion speak is.. Level 3 Spells/Powers. and not alot of em.
There are some small bonus to this. If you are an infested, Assimilated, embraced. You can use this to boost your casting ability back to your normal sorcerer/psion abilities. A Swarmlord with a Glut of points could boost her knowns with some extras from psion and more Power Points; since it's a single PP pool. or generally just gain some basic Sorcerer Casting.
For your average character, unless you pick and choose certain lower level, no real ML/CL spells; it's not gonna do you to much.

These are the Main ones I wanted to see how they work out on paper.

Nothing here is going to run you for life. but put altogether; you do feel kinda gestaltly. Reasonably good at alot of things; but no master of it all.

That is..least till your swarmlord gets rolling and makes heavy use of HiveMindry and Buffing

Honestly, this is better than I could have hoped. Exactly what I wanted.

Question:I noticed the Assimilated and Infested Template have a little blurb about a Swarmlord being able to "choose" something with those templates as a Swarmling; which they get bonus's for. How would this effect a assimilated player? (say if my swarmlord was level 9... and the player was ECL 9 (6 class, 3Assimilated Template)[/QUOTE]
You would get:
-A share in the Swarmlord's evolution points
-+4 HD (which would actually be one class level and two warrior levels, and would max out your HD at 9. If your ECL went up and your HD didn't, such as with another template, you'd get a third warrior level), +6 natural armor, and three ability points
-Bonus evolution points based on your Swarmlord's cha
-Three bonus ability points

[Volthawk]

Does the burrowing ability you can get leave usable tunnels?

Also loving this class, even if just for the evolution system. God I love systems like that (the reason Evolutionist is one of my favourite classes - having lots of fun working out this Embraced Evolutionist build).

[Gnomes2169]

Does the burrowing ability you can get leave usable tunnels?

Also loving this class, even if just for the evolution system. God I love systems like that (the reason Evolutionist is one of my favourite classes - having lots of fun working out this Embraced Evolutionist build).

Well, as the designer of that function, I would say that yes, it should. Though it has to be the right size category or larger to actually let you use them.

[Lix Lorn]

Well, as the designer of that function, I would say that yes, it should. Though it has to be the right size category or larger to actually let you use them.

I'll go with yes then, I had no idea. xD

[Hat-Trick]

Silly question, is Infecting/Assimilating/Embracing a target a standard action or an attack action? Would having some way to convert it into an attack action be overpowered? Like as a feat or Adaptation? Call it Contagious Infection.

[DrunkenMists]

QUESTION: if a Swarmlord..had a Fledgling swarmlord under her command (lets say..assimlated Template; Willingly Failed the Save to be under thier command)

Assume that Fledgling Swarmlord took the Distance Manifestation Adaption.

Would that Fledgling be able to only affect those under her direct command center? (infested/swarmlings and etc) directly under her? or would the be able to effect that fledglings swarmlord?
Would it be able to effect as far as that Swarmlords underlings other than her owns?

Mostly Curious outa wondering if I can make a Assimilated Swarmlord and then use distanct manifestations to manifest stuff on my swarmlord..and her minions using it.

[Lix Lorn]

Silly question, is Infecting/Assimilating/Embracing a target a standard action or an attack action? Would having some way to convert it into an attack action be overpowered? Like as a feat or Adaptation? Call it Contagious Infection.

It's a standard action, but that doesn't sound too OP.

QUESTION: if a Swarmlord..had a Fledgling swarmlord under her command (lets say..assimlated Template; Willingly Failed the Save to be under thier command)

Assume that Fledgling Swarmlord took the Distance Manifestation Adaption.

Would that Fledgling be able to only affect those under her direct command center? (infested/swarmlings and etc) directly under her? or would the be able to effect that fledglings swarmlord?
Would it be able to effect as far as that Swarmlords underlings other than her owns?

Mostly Curious outa wondering if I can make a Assimilated Swarmlord and then use distanct manifestations to manifest stuff on my swarmlord..and her minions using it.

She'd only be able to use it on those under her, I think.

[ShadowFireLance]

So if you Infest Something, it retains all of it's Class levels?

[Lix Lorn]

Only if it stays smart.

[Sliprunner]

Started playing the class last month after finding it fairly interesting. Being to a degree a self contained party. Particularly I've found the adaption "Distant Manifestation" to be insanely useful with Area control powers. Which considering I'm being a hybrid between front line and Calvary support is quite the saving grace.

I do have to ask though. (Chances are I missed the answer somewhere)
How exactly dose the Hive mind interact with the Swarmlord's personality? is the Swarmlord the Hive mind? Are they just the voice of Authority?

I'm curious as my hive mind currently contains the personalities from
8 (less then intelligent) Kobolds
1 Ex-Paladin (Complete with the "Smite all wrong doer's" personality)
1 (easily distracted) Hawk dragon

I did find one thing though, using this I could easily become colossal sized before level 10. Which considering subtly adaption, means I can technically hide all changes...
which would include size changes with that descriptor. Just a humorous thought.

[Draken]

Started playing the class last month after finding it fairly interesting. Being to a degree a self contained party. Particularly I've found the adaption "Distant Manifestation" to be insanely useful with Area control powers. Which considering I'm being a hybrid between front line and Calvary support is quite the saving grace.

I do have to ask though. (Chances are I missed the answer somewhere)
How exactly dose the Hive mind interact with the Swarmlord's personality? is the Swarmlord the Hive mind? Are they just the voice of Authority?

I'm curious as my hive mind currently contains the personalities from
8 (less then intelligent) Kobolds
1 Ex-Paladin (Complete with the "Smite all wrong doer's" personality)
1 (easily distracted) Hawk dragon

I did find one thing though, using this I could easily become colossal sized before level 10. Which considering subtly adaption, means I can technically hide all changes...
which would include size changes with that descriptor. Just a humorous thought.

I believe I can answer this one. The short answer is 'however you wish', it is your character after all.

The long answer is that mechanical rules that interfere with personality building are a difficult area to tread and should always be treated carefully by a designer, as well as made very explicit to those who would use them. It is... Complex.

So your Hive Mind can be a Monarchy where the Swarmlord is ruler and other sapients are advisors at best, supplicants most of the time and voiceless slaves at worse. It could be a a representative democracy of sorts. It could be a militaristic hierarchy. It could be a gestalt of all past and current members, even those whose bodies and souls have long since abandoned the group.

Hmm... Just thought of the possibility of a Feat that traps the souls of dead members of the Swarm into the Hive Mind, making ressurrection easier (begone level loss) but dependant on the Swarmlord's compliance. That would be interesting.

[Morphic tide]

Have all creatures able to be infested, get creep tumors, resist, collosal size, as many health boosts as possible, make everything an ooze, get armor and embrace everything, kill those that keep there will. Say hello the the smooze, able to absorb a village, then use the population to absorb a city. And still able to hide as a normal man.

[EdroGrimshell]

Do you all know what would make this class Epic beyond what it already is? Well, do you?

Spoiler

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Well, then, let me tell you.

Spoiler

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What if you could make Slivers with this class?

I think this would just be giving Auras to the individual swarm members that only affect other swarm members. Not impossible to balance, but it'd be difficult and require some interesting rulings. Add in the fact that Slivers are naturally weak in small numbers represented by lower hit die and the naturally weak base of the aberration type (assuming they're aberrations and not magical beasts or outsiders since I've only heard of them through my brother) and you may actually be able to set it to relatively balanced play. They'd still be dangerous as all nine hells, but that's pretty much the definition of Epic Level. I'd make it a high level PrC, 13 at the very earliest, with an Epic Level progression afterwards.

Make it grant certain, single auras to your weaker minions that can enhance other weaker minions to start, then progress from their until they can have maybe two or three auras and affect stronger minions at a reduced efficiency. It'd balance out the benefits if it's limited to weaker minions, let's them contribute better, and allows for some versatility.

[Lix Lorn]

Started playing the class last month after finding it fairly interesting. Being to a degree a self contained party. Particularly I've found the adaption "Distant Manifestation" to be insanely useful with Area control powers. Which considering I'm being a hybrid between front line and Calvary support is quite the saving grace.

I do have to ask though. (Chances are I missed the answer somewhere)
How exactly dose the Hive mind interact with the Swarmlord's personality? is the Swarmlord the Hive mind? Are they just the voice of Authority?

I'm curious as my hive mind currently contains the personalities from
8 (less then intelligent) Kobolds
1 Ex-Paladin (Complete with the "Smite all wrong doer's" personality)
1 (easily distracted) Hawk dragon

I did find one thing though, using this I could easily become colossal sized before level 10. Which considering subtly adaption, means I can technically hide all changes...
which would include size changes with that descriptor. Just a humorous thought.

The size change-hiding is an intended option.
As for the hive mind, the DEFAULT assumption is that the hive mind is a mixture of all the minds in it. But... yeah, as Draken says, however you wish.

Hmm... Just thought of the possibility of a Feat that traps the souls of dead members of the Swarm into the Hive Mind, making ressurrection easier (begone level loss) but dependant on the Swarmlord's compliance. That would be interesting.

Could be cool!

Have all creatures able to be infested, get creep tumors, resist, collosal size, as many health boosts as possible, make everything an ooze, get armor and embrace everything, kill those that keep there will. Say hello the the smooze, able to absorb a village, then use the population to absorb a city. And still able to hide as a normal man.

Intended

[Sliprunner]

The size change-hiding is an intended option

Its more the context of how fast the size changes happen. I did figure out though how to recreate the Trygon, Using my swarmlord himself. Mainly because he is a Large burrowing race. This idea followed by possibly getting more infested kobolds in the future...I think I'd have a decent ambush squad.

Oddly enough this is because a number of smaller minions is actually fairly effective. If not for the dice rolls. Which is when "Mob" rules come in use. Means if I throw enough kobolds down range eventually the problem is solved! Now if only I had the evolution points to turn them into walking bombs...possibly filled with a nasty disease/poison instead of explodium

[Lix Lorn]

It is pretty fast

[Gnomes2169]

Pft, no idea why I didn't notice this, but the progression of the ref save is off on the table XD It should max out at +6, and grew one level too fast between +2 and +3 (it should go up at level 9, not level 8.)

[Lix Lorn]

Whooooops. Fixed!

[Gnomes2169]

And now it's perfect... again.

[Lix Lorn]

Thank you.

[Arkhaic]

One thing that bugs me and my DM is that Swarmling can have less points than a new infested. This is because an Infested gets the points of a Swarmlord of half their ECL, while the Swarmling gets an amount equal to the bonus PP of the Swarmlord.

[Lix Lorn]

Well the Swarmlord is MEANT to share their own points with their swarmlings.

[Arkhaic]

Doesn't explain why only the swarmling's points scale. This makes the Evolving Swarm Adaptation near worthless—after all, only swarmlings get bonus evolution points from a high charisma mod.

She does not gain bonus evolution points based on her ability scores.

Everyone but the Swarmling is based upon the points the Swarmlord gets, so only the Swarmling benefits from this evolution.

[Lix Lorn]

Because the others don't really need the extra points. Swarmlings get bonus points on top of the pool so that you can take The Swarm Grows and not suddenly have literally less than half the power on each of them. However many swarmlings you have, each one has the high cha mod points.

[razorfloss]

I love this class going to try and get a friend who is a starcraft nut into dnd with this. Wonder if he will have a nerdgasm