The Swarm Arrives [3.5 Base Class-Zerg, Tyranids]

[drack]

I'm also going to throw in that a little limiting on the spell versatility to fit the theme would probably balance it a bit better given that as it stands it has a lesser form of necromancy (swarmlings, ect), boosted to be as strong as the normal (through evolutions), and going from the equivalent of a full spell selection to a limited spell selection puts it more into the standard balance of such classes.

(hope this doesn't somehow kick start one of those tier argument thingies )

[Lix Lorn]

Well, it's based on Kerrigan from Starcraft, who is intensely psychic.
The main reason I didn't give it a limited power list is because I don't want to write out a list. They're limited to 7th level powers, which should be a major loss... although the mechanics of psionics may mitigate it slightly.

[drack]

Yup, psioncs is like a specialized form of magic where it goes a few levels higher in power and has less versatility across the boards. (for instance mind blank being a bit lower), furthermore as I hear, it's the only casting system with a spell without saves or SR/PR that doesn't need to hit someone first. When you consider damage boost for PP spent, then this adds up. Furthermore having psionics and evolution pints both on the same ability score is typically a no-no, unless it's through a feat or the like...

Also, not sure if this will help, but if you look at psionic warrior (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/cl...hicWarrior.htm), partial casting commonly ends at level 6 spells and with less PP if that's what you were going for.

Guess I'll also add (since I've never belied in letting dead dogs lie, being one who favors necromancy and the like) that I'd make feats more expensive... I mean it's classes like this that I use when I want to add a free reflection of all targeted effects (from spells to arrows to swords), and automatically counter any spell in sight...

[Draken]

Sci-fi sources aside, it should be noted that for most of D&D, Hiveminds are acknowledged to whip up some supernatural powers, focusing into whatever is leading the hivemind (BoVD translates this into sorcerous spellcasting).

Anyway, a few formatting details now that I finally digested the whole thing.

1. I think Evolution Points should probably be listed in the main class table, instead of the swarmling advancement table. The list itself should also not be in the Swarmling entry, I think. But have a post all for itself.

2. The evolutions need a better format, I would suggest something along these lines:

Evolution Name
Targets: (which members of the swarm can evolve this: Swarmlord, Swarmlings, Infested, Assmilated, Embraced)
Prerequisites: I will be honest here. Most evolutions do zilch at level 1 and should probably be granted at higher levels for this simple fact. Also gives an extra sense of progression.
Benefit: What it does.

3. 'Resist' (under Ironscales) is pretty much Hardness.

Nothing further to add for now!

4.

[Lix Lorn]

...no it's not. Psionics is weaker than magic. Or at least, less OP.
What's more, split ability scores are one of my least favourite things ever, and I'm not a big fan of the Psychic Warrior.

And infinite reflection is an epic feat, so you can't take it until you're epic anyway.

1. I think Evolution Points should probably be listed in the main class table, instead of the swarmling advancement table. The list itself should also not be in the Swarmling entry, I think. But have a post all for itself.

I'm not sure there is any room in the table, is the problem.

2. The evolutions need a better format, I would suggest something along these lines:

Evolution Name
Targets: (which members of the swarm can evolve this: Swarmlord, Swarmlings, Infested, Assmilated, Embraced)
Prerequisites: I will be honest here. Most evolutions do zilch at level 1 and should probably be granted at higher levels for this simple fact. Also gives an extra sense of progression.
Benefit: What it does.

This... kinda seems like a lot of effort for very, very little gain. What does this do to help?

3. 'Resist' (under Ironscales) is pretty much Hardness.

...huh. I suppose it is.
On the other hand, I have to look up hardness to know what it does, and it says it's only for objects.

Thanks!

[inuyasha]

...no it's not. Psionics is weaker than magic. Or at least, less OP.

I miss old school psionics I liked them when they were rare, not a base class, not a bunch of base classes, but just a rare freak role of the dice that got you uber powers to make heads explode...I miss the almighty gygax and his awesome D&D rules that were so much fun and made no sense

[drack]

...no it's not. Psionics is weaker than magic. Or at least, less OP.

In some ways yes, in others no. Psionics can be more useful or less depending on how they're used. Now someone who knows both systems by heart is apt to use magic in most cases as it covers a broader range of scenerioes, but this doesn't really make psionics weaker, it just means you need to force that type of scenario to pop up. Often people will choose psionics along with castings taking the perks such as longer range/better effect to spells from using more PP as needed, and using the attack spells that always do damage (the sonic and crystal ones) to attack, while using spells and magic to defend. Doesn't make the one that much weaker, just suited to another area.

What's more, split ability scores are one of my least favourite things ever, and I'm not a big fan of the Psychic Warrior.

yup, what is balance compared to free power ay. Yup, well at least it means more people love the brew, even if they are munchkins.

And infinite reflection is an epic feat, so you can't take it until you're epic anyway.

Should we use a simpler version such as sixteen shots/turn? (I think that's around 10th level range... though it may be fifteenth something around there. There are plenty of feats to double the number of arrows you can shoot after all)

I miss old school psionics I liked them when they were rare, not a base class, not a bunch of base classes, but just a rare freak role of the dice that got you uber powers to make heads explode...I miss the almighty gygax and his awesome D&D rules that were so much fun and made no sense

yup, alas...

[inuyasha]

oh and also, under the "this land is mine" adaption where you can create a creep tumor, I must ask, will you ever develop the ability to make spore and sunken colonies?

[Lix Lorn]

In some ways yes, in others no. Psionics can be more useful or less depending on how they're used. Now someone who knows both systems by heart is apt to use magic in most cases as it covers a broader range of scenerioes, but this doesn't really make psionics weaker, it just means you need to force that type of scenario to pop up. Often people will choose psionics along with castings taking the perks such as longer range/better effect to spells from using more PP as needed, and using the attack spells that always do damage (the sonic and crystal ones) to attack, while using spells and magic to defend. Doesn't make the one that much weaker, just suited to another area.

I pretty much disagree entirely. Psionics are better at blasting. That's pretty much it.

Regardless, I nerfed their psionics slightly, since not getting higher level powers is no real problem when lower level ones can be augmented.

yup, what is balance compared to free power ay. Yup, well at least it means more people love the brew, even if they are munchkins.

I never thought the Psychic Warrior was very interesting or all that powerful.

Should we use a simpler version such as sixteen shots/turn? (I think that's around 10th level range... though it may be fifteenth something around there. There are plenty of feats to double the number of arrows you can shoot after all)

I have no idea what you're talking about.

oh and also, under the "this land is mine" adaption where you can create a creep tumor, I must ask, will you ever develop the ability to make spore and sunken colonies?

...I would have to ask what they are. ^_^''

[drack]

I pretty much disagree entirely. Psionics are better at blasting. That's pretty much it.

Regardless, I nerfed their psionics slightly, since not getting higher level powers is no real problem when lower level ones can be augmented.

Well blasting never hurts, but for instance they have an ability or two that bypasses mind blank which I don't really know spells to go through as easily.

I have no idea what you're talking about.

archery feats.

I never thought the Psychic Warrior was very interesting or all that powerful.

I suppose, though on the other hand it had feats instead of minions and evolution bits...

[Lix Lorn]

Well blasting never hurts, but for instance they have an ability or two that bypasses mind blank which I don't really know spells to go through as easily.

...like what?

archery feats.

...aren't that good anyway?

I suppose, though on the other hand it had feats instead of minions and evolution bits...

I'm not that bothered about it being better than the psychic warrior. The psychic warrior doesn't seem strong or interesting.

[Turalisj]

In some ways yes, in others no. Psionics can be more useful or less depending on how they're used. Now someone who knows both systems by heart is apt to use magic in most cases as it covers a broader range of scenerioes, but this doesn't really make psionics weaker, it just means you need to force that type of scenario to pop up. Often people will choose psionics along with castings taking the perks such as longer range/better effect to spells from using more PP as needed, and using the attack spells that always do damage (the sonic and crystal ones) to attack, while using spells and magic to defend. Doesn't make the one that much weaker, just suited to another area.

*cough*bull*****cough*

This dance has been done to death. Let's not derail this into an argument that has been repeated before (with the argument for psionics winning a majority of the time).

If you don't like psionics, then please don't comment on the class.

[inuyasha]

If you don't like psionics, then please don't comment on the class.

I like psionics, I just dont like the way 3.X did them, I also dont think that this class really needs them that much

[drack]

*cough*bull*****cough*

This dance has been done to death. Let's not derail this into an argument that has been repeated before (with the argument for psionics winning a majority of the time).

If you don't like psionics, then please don't comment on the class.

My stance was more for psionics being as good as magic, not inferior.

[Mystic Muse]

I like psionics, I just dont like the way 3.X did them, I also dont think that this class really needs them that much

PM me what you would do with this class differently. I plan on doing my own version at one point, and there won't be all that many psionic abilities in it. However, it seems you and Lix have a different opinion on what the class should be, so I don't think there's going to be much purpose in arguing with her.

[drack]

PM me what you would do with this class differently. I plan on doing my own version at one point, and there won't be all that many psionic abilities in it. However, it seems you and Lix have a different opinion on what the class should be, so I don't think there's going to be much purpose in arguing with her.

Perhaps. Alas I will give it yet one more try. PM me a link whe you write it up, I'm intrigued
Bold

...like what?
Mate, you have read the psionics section right? There is a lower level spell specifically designed to dispel it, and a good few besides that specifically state that it doesn't effect them.

...aren't that good anyway?
Sure, if you concider doubling your damage every time you take one "not that good"

I'm not that bothered about it being better than the psychic warrior. The psychic warrior doesn't seem strong or interesting. Yes, perhaps I shouldn't be all that concerned with the wizard either, after all compared with some of the stuff I can do with other classes it's not that strong or interesting. Then again some might argue that I may have looked too closely at mageslayer builds, or that once I can make things that can disregard all magic no matter the caster level, no matter the casting rate, and no matter the spell that perhaps I shouldn't be comparing to wizards in the first place. Yet here I am, and here I compare. You do not wish to believe me fine, but discounting classes merely because most of their strength lies in feats is a folly to be sure. Do not casters too double damage with feats through those such as twin/quicken/chain/repeating/widen/ect. spell.

[Lix Lorn]

I think you should have listened to Mystic. I disagree with your assertions and don't have the time nor the inclination to explain exactly why I think you're wrong.

[drack]

Naturally
So much for pleasant discourse.

[Gnomes2169]

First off, I love the idea of this class. Zerg have always been a fun race to play.

Secondly, where is my Hydralisk rapid spike shooting evolution? I like my hydras and their spitty acid spikes of death... Oh, and the Lurker line shot. Both attacks are awesome and make them some of the best zerg units.

Thirdly: Giving them unlimited access to psionic abilities might be pushing it. Maybe they can just automatically learn psionic powers that deal with the mind as a class feature? Their abilities make me think that this class should be some kind of Overmind or Kerrigan, and both of them are powerful not because they can blow things up with their mind (though that does help Kerrigan), but because they can dominate or crush the wills of their foes and minions. So mind magic really would be helpful and fit thematically.

Ooo, or perhaps a focus on mind based psionics? Something like: "For every general psionic power the Swarmlord takes, the must have at least one power that is Egoist or Telepath focused. This ratio of powers must remain 1:1 at each level of manifestation." This would give them a more focused role while also allowing them to branch out. Just a thought, feel free to discount

[Lix Lorn]

First off, I love the idea of this class. Zerg have always been a fun race to play.

Thanks!

Secondly, where is my Hydralisk rapid spike shooting evolution? I like my hydras and their spitty acid spikes of death... Oh, and the Lurker line shot. Both attacks are awesome and make them some of the best zerg units.

You can make a ranged natural attack with these rules, and you could apply Rapid Shot to it. That do? :)

Thirdly: Giving them unlimited access to psionic abilities might be pushing it. Maybe they can just automatically learn psionic powers that deal with the mind as a class feature? Their abilities make me think that this class should be some kind of Overmind or Kerrigan, and both of them are powerful not because they can blow things up with their mind (though that does help Kerrigan), but because they can dominate or crush the wills of their foes and minions. So mind magic really would be helpful and fit thematically.

Ooo, or perhaps a focus on mind based psionics? Something like: "For every general psionic power the Swarmlord takes, the must have at least one power that is Egoist or Telepath focused. This ratio of powers must remain 1:1 at each level of manifestation." This would give them a more focused role while also allowing them to branch out. Just a thought, feel free to discount

While making it more limited to mind-magic would make it closer to the zerg, I always prefer to make classes wider. If I leave this as it is, it can be used for loads of other stuff too. Maybe someone will read this and want to use it for a psychically bonded cult of teleporters. They'll be mad if they need mind magic before teleport :P

Basically, I keep it as wide as it can. If Zerg fits inside it then it's a success, but I don't want to narrow it.

[Gnomes2169]

Thanks!

'Welcome.

You can make a ranged natural attack with these rules, and you could apply Rapid Shot to it. That do? :)

For the Hydra, sure, but the Lurker model would need to have something specialized for attacking while burrowed... mind if I 'brew something up that fits the bill?

Oh, and of course a bouncing attack for the Mutalisk model is also needed. Because all of the zerg need to be possible... FOR THE SWARM

While making it more limited to mind-magic would make it closer to the zerg, I always prefer to make classes wider. If I leave this as it is, it can be used for loads of other stuff too. Maybe someone will read this and want to use it for a psychically bonded cult of teleporters. They'll be mad if they need mind magic before teleport :P

Basically, I keep it as wide as it can. If Zerg fits inside it then it's a success, but I don't want to narrow it.

Fair enough, it was just a suggestion and I would be loathe to prevent player customization and optimization. If I were to play it, I would probably do the whole mind-magic theme but that's just me.

[Draken]

I'm not sure there is any room in the table, is the problem.

Room for one extra column? Hmm... Yes, I think there is.

This... kinda seems like a lot of effort for very, very little gain. What does this do to help?

It would tidy the entries considerably. But it could simply be my pechant for organization talking.

...huh. I suppose it is.
On the other hand, I have to look up hardness to know what it does, and it says it's only for objects.

Thanks!

And oozes are supposed to be mindless, but WotC didn't stick to that rule either, did they?

Animated Objects are creatures and they have hardness. It is nothing special, really. Only detail, however, is that hardness under 20 is ignored by adamantine.

[Lix Lorn]

For the Hydra, sure, but the Lurker model would need to have something specialized for attacking while burrowed... mind if I 'brew something up that fits the bill?

Oh, and of course a bouncing attack for the Mutalisk model is also needed. Because all of the zerg need to be possible... FOR THE SWARM

Go for it! Super-specialised stuff is awesome, but I'm gonna make it as I need it, cause ifd I try to make everything that specific, I'll never be done. xD

Fair enough, it was just a suggestion and I would be loathe to prevent player customization and optimization. If I were to play it, I would probably do the whole mind-magic theme but that's just me.

If I were going for Zerg, so would I. xD

Room for one extra column? Hmm... Yes, I think there is.

...fair. It'd make it much cleaner, so I'll change that.

It would tidy the entries considerably. But it could simply be my pechant for organization talking.

Ehh... maybe next time I'm obsessive.

And oozes are supposed to be mindless, but WotC didn't stick to that rule either, did they?

Animated Objects are creatures and they have hardness. It is nothing special, really. Only detail, however, is that hardness under 20 is ignored by adamantine.

I guess. I kinda prefer it as something I can define the rules on, though, since that stops random things I forget about from interacting with it.

[Gnomes2169]

Alright, let's get some subterranean evolutions going here! Let's make ourselves a Lurker.

Tunneling claws
This is a specific name for the "burrowing" movement modification. For three points this evolution allows a medium Swarmling to burrow up to 15ft under the ground per round as a standard action. While burrowed it cannot be spotted or subjected to search checks, and every 5" deep it goes increases all listen check DCs made to detect it by 10 and it gains a +10 circumstance bonus to its AC. While under the ground, the Swarmling may move horizontally at its normal movement speed.

As long as this movement goes through a solid surface (so not something like sand) the swarmling leaves a tunnel behind it slightly taller and wider than itself.

-------------------------------------

Now, before we get some attacks in we will need to make it possible for the swarmling to actually see the enemies that it is attacking, right?

-------------------------------------

Subterranean echolocation
For two evolution points the swarmling gains an echolocation-like ability that allows it to see through up to 10" of solid matter while burrowed. This sight functions like blind sight, and does not reveal anything that isn't specifically touching the ground. Every two points spent on this evolution increases the sight range by 10".

-------------------------------------

And now on to the main event!

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Subterranean assault
By spending five evolution points, the swarmling gains a natural weapon that fires through the ground as a line attack. This weapon counts as a natural weapon of one size category larger than the swarmling and has a range of 40". This weapon can only be used if the swarmling is 2" or closer to the surface, can only be used if the swarmling is burrowed and can only strike terrestrial targets. After attacking a target the location of the Swarmling will be revealed. Burning Touch does not automatically affect this attack. As it is a ranged attack, use Dexterity modifier in place of Strength to determine bonus to hit and damage.

In addition to this subterranean attack, the Swarmling may also use its other natural weapon attacks while it is close to the surface, though their normal ranges apply, and its Burning Touch does not get applied. For three evolution points the Swarmling may apply the Burning Touch evolution to all of its subterranean attacks.

---------------------------

Now let's see what we need to build a Lurker. I'll be using the absolute minimum amount of points needed to create this critter.

Spoiler

Show

Size/ type: Large magical creature
Hit Dice: 7d10+14 (57 hp)
Initiative: +3
Armor Class: 23 (10+11 natural+3 dex-1 size)
Base attack/ grapple: +3/ +9
Attack: +8 Claw (1d8, melee, secondary)/ +10 Spikes (2d6, Primary weapon, ranged)
Full attack: +10/ +4/ +4 (Spikes/ claw/ claw)
Space/ reach: 40"/5"
Special attacks: Line (Spikes)
Special qualities: Hive Mind, Burrowing, Subterranean sight (40")
Saves: Fort +7, Ref +9, Will +3
Ability scores: Str: 14 Dex: 17 Con: 14 Int: 2 Wis: 8 Cha: 10
Skills: Hide -2, Move silently -2
Feats: Weapon Finesse, Iron will, Point blank shot, Precise shot
Alignment: True neutral, or as controller.
Advancement: By Swarmlord

+6 HD, +9 Natural armor, +4 ability
Five points in size increase (+4 Str, +4 Con, -4 Dex, +2 NA)
Three points spent on Burrowing movement evolution.
Eight points spent on Subterranean Echolocation (40" of vision while burrowed)
Five points spent on Subterranean Assault.

Level 13 Swarmlord minimum

[Lix Lorn]

Interestin'! My main question would be, why make Subterranean Assault give a new weapon, rather than modify one you already have?

[Gnomes2169]

Because the line of spikes just seems like it would be a different weapon entirely, and since it can only be used while burrowed I would not want to deprive the Swarmling of its only natural weapon in places where it cannot burrow (Deep snow, water, adamantine, caverns with a shallow bottom, etc). So I thought that it might be a good idea to increase the cost (I had originally planned for this attack to be 3 evo points) and give them a new weapon instead.

[Lix Lorn]

The obvious answer to me would be just to say 'is applied to a natural weapon, may be used while burrowed.' It just seems easier.

[Gnomes2169]

Well, I was going off of the Lurker model here, where it is shooting a ridge of spines from its back, but if you are going to implement the idea then I guess you could change it however you wanted to.

[Lady Serpentine]

Hm...

Gnomes, how would you go about building a Mutalisk, or a Defilfer? What about a Guardian?

[Gnomes2169]

For a Mutalisk, you would need to build an Evolution that had the Pathfinder's version of Greater Cleave, so that you could fire a glaive that would bounce between enemies as long as it hit (but not more than once per enemy). With the Guardian, you could use the Natural Weapon evolution that already exists to create a ranged natural weapon on a large creature that deals acid damage. You would also want to increase the size modification on the weapon by at least one, if not two categories. The devourer (yeah, I'm just making all of the Zerg air units right now. ) you would have to add an ability that makes all successful acid attacks made by the swarmling deal damage to a creature's AC, DR and ER, to a maximum of -9 to each. This defenses damage would have to have a small splash zone, maybe 5", to emulate the creature's total abilities. You would also have to give them all the Flying movement modification.

The Defiler, though, would be tricky. First, you would have to make it psionic and give it the ability to move while burrowed. Then you would have to give it the ability to create some kind of plague and an obscuring mist (That shouldn't be too hard) and then you would also have to give it the ability to consume other creatures that belong to the swarm so that it could replenish its psionic powers. So creating it might force you to create 3 abilities, which would really be a bother if you didn't have some time on your hands.