MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

[SavageWombat]

Agreed. Just a small note: I'm sure such creature exists that is fluffed as "all muscle, no bones". It might even have massive strength. But, crucially, it will have been created, with magic, that way.

There is - it's a kind of zombie (possibly from Ravenloft) called a Boneless. It slithers along the floor and is all floppy. No match.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0546.html

The only psionic featured on-page had a purplish aura go from his forehead, not his eyes.

That's a good point, and in fact the only other (fictional, but still) psionic to be featured also had a purplish aura.

One is just a quirk of a character, but two unrelated characters suggests that is what psionics look like in OotS.

There is - it's a kind of zombie (possibly from Ravenloft) called a Boneless. It slithers along the floor and is all floppy. No match.

Thanks!

Grey Wolf

[stsasser]

Personally? I.e. as Grey Wolf, the nitpicking participant and not as Grey Wolf the curator? If I had to pick just one? Today? Protean.

But I like quite a few: protean, uvuu, zodar and aboleth all are very good candidates. Which one of that list I like most at any given point varies over the months.

Grey Wolf

Thanks!

I especially like the notion that the Giant has found an entertaining way to standardize a constantly mutating image.

[Olinser]

One thing I would like to point out:

The MiTD mentioned that his 'dad' was bigger than he was - but this does NOT mean that he is not some kind of manufactured/unique creature.

Many mixed-race or adopted children don't actual realize that their (totally different race) parents cannot be their REAL parents until somebody points it out.

It is completely possible that the MiTD was adopted by another (much larger) creature, and he was just too dumb or too naive to realize that they weren't even the same species.

It is also possible that the MiTD is an artificial creature, and he referred to his creator as his 'father' (much precedent for this in various media).

[SavageWombat]

One thing I would like to point out:

The MiTD mentioned that his 'dad' was bigger than he was - but this does NOT mean that he is not some kind of manufactured/unique creature.

Many mixed-race or adopted children don't actual realize that their (totally different race) parents cannot be their REAL parents until somebody points it out.

It is completely possible that the MiTD was adopted by another (much larger) creature, and he was just too dumb or too naive to realize that they weren't even the same species.

It is also possible that the MiTD is an artificial creature, and he referred to his creator as his 'father' (much precedent for this in various media).

Got to admit that's a good point.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

One thing I would like to point out:

The MiTD mentioned that his 'dad' was bigger than he was - but this does NOT mean that he is not some kind of manufactured/unique creature.

Many mixed-race or adopted children don't actual realize that their (totally different race) parents cannot be their REAL parents until somebody points it out.

It is completely possible that the MiTD was adopted by another (much larger) creature, and he was just too dumb or too naive to realize that they weren't even the same species.

It is also possible that the MiTD is an artificial creature, and he referred to his creator as his 'father' (much precedent for this in various media).

That interpretation is known as the "foundling father" hypothesis and has been in the first post since the very beginning (See Section 2c: Family). I am particularly proud of it because it is one of mine. I like that if he was a chaotic evil monster, but was raised by an adoptive parent that happened to be a ancient gold dragon (legal good), that would also explain why MitD is so confused about how he should act: his nature is fighting his nurture.

Grey Wolf

[Olinser]

That interpretation is known as the "foundling father" hypothesis and has been in the first post since the very beginning (See Section 2c: Family). I am particularly proud of it because it is one of mine. I like that if he was a chaotic evil monster, but was raised by an adoptive parent that happened to be a ancient gold dragon (legal good), that would also explain why MitD is so confused about how he should act: his nature is fighting his nurture.

Grey Wolf

Yes... but that section doesn't cover the fact that he could have been artificial, and that his creator is the 'father' he referred to.

[KillItWithFire]

That's a good point, and in fact the only other (fictional, but still) psionic to be featured also had a purplish aura.

One is just a quirk of a character, but two unrelated characters suggests that is what psionics look like in OotS.

Grey Wolf

Your rule of thumb seems to be different than mine, I usually go by: once is a fluke, twice is a coincidence, and three times is a pattern. But sure, let's roll with it.

As a counter argument, psionics themselves can't agree on what they look like. Every power has a different display. Since neither of the two powers shown look like they are the one MitD used during the escape, you can't really compare them. Also, if that's the line of reasoning you want to pursue, regular magic has been used many, many times in OotS and every time it has had a colored aura accompany it either around the effect of the magic or around the hand/eyes of the caster, so if the ability is normal magic there must be an aura. We see none during the escape. It could be possible that there is an aura but it only occurs on MitD eyes or is invisible due to the darkness. Or, since there isn't even a single panel between MitD "casting" and the effect having already taken place, perhaps we were simply never shown it?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Yes... but that section doesn't cover the fact that he could have been artificial, and that his creator is the 'father' he referred to.

Good point. I'll add that interpretation explicitly.

Your rule of thumb seems to be different than mine, I usually go by: once is a fluke, twice is a coincidence, and three times is a pattern. But sure, let's roll with it.

That's my rule of thumb for the real world, but OotS is a little more tightly controlled than that. I am not saying that this is a direct clue, I am only saying that it feels like that's just Rich's style for psionics.

As a counter argument, psionics themselves can't agree on what they look like. Every power has a different display. Since neither of the two powers shown look like they are the one MitD used during the escape, you can't really compare them. Also, if that's the line of reasoning you want to pursue, regular magic has been used many, many times in OotS and every time it has had a colored aura accompany it either around the effect of the magic or around the hand/eyes of the caster. We see none during the escape. It could be possible that there is an aura but it only occurs on MitD eyes or is invisible due to the darkness. Or, since there isn't even a single panel between MitD "casting" and the effect having already taken place, perhaps we were simply never shown it?

Good points all. (I may revisit later, I really need to get back to work. Sorry guys).

GW

[Peelee]

Several. First, your argument doesn't work. The exoskeleton is where muscles anchor. In D&D, like in real life, muscles require a firm surface to pull to provide movement. All the strength in the world is useless if it can't be applied. Removing a zodar's exoskeleton would leave you with a mass of very strong and very magical muscles unable to pull at anything, and thus pretty much unable to move.

Grey Wolf

So if there were a creature that specifically could shed its exoskeleton, was capable of motion without exoskeleton, and was known for provoking disgusted reactions in those who see him sans exoskeleton....

Need a creature to fit MitD? Why not Zoidberg?

EDIT: Potentially NSFW links.

[JustWantedToSay]

The circus scene has an air of "business as usual". If the circus owner had noticed a change in how MitD looked, as he was in the process of molting, you'd think he'd made a slight comment to the effect. We know MitD spent at least five years in the circus, and it is strongly implied he has the same exact act (stand on stage being looked at) every day. There is no reason to assume that there was anything special about the day RC went to see the show.

Hermit crabs take weeks, and on rare occasions months, to moult.
Also a month long process for the coconut crab.

--The human skeleton is constantly reconstructing itself, a process which takes 10-20 years for one full cycle.

I'm not familiar with D&D monsters, but I think a years long moulting process would be reasonable when scaling up for size.

D&D has giant arachnids. Does any of its literature address the moulting issue for those?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

As a counter argument, psionics themselves can't agree on what they look like. Every power has a different display. Since neither of the two powers shown look like they are the one MitD used during the escape, you can't really compare them.

Actually, I can. It is not an ironclad argument, but it is not something that can be ignored, either. The first power is a mind reading power/truth telling power of some description. The second is a simple telekinesis. They are as different from each other as either is from a reality revision. And yet they both exhibit pretty much the same drawing style: spiky wave-like purple pattern. As I said, Rich probably wasn't thinking about it, but it seems that is his go-to "look" when drawing psionic powers, and the fact that MitD's escape didn't have any like it has to be taken into account. Its not the end for the argument, but it needs to admit to it. Down the line we might get more evidence one way or the other.

Also, if that's the line of reasoning you want to pursue, regular magic has been used many, many times in OotS and every time it has had a colored aura accompany it either around the effect of the magic or around the hand/eyes of the caster, so if the ability is normal magic there must be an aura.

I can't check how accurate this statement is while at work, but it sounds like you are making the case for me: if regular magic displays changes to the eyes, and psionics is always an aura around the head, and MitD only had eye change, it suggests that he used magic, not psionics.

However, you are also suggesting a false dichotomy. The choice is not only between psionics and regular magic. The most likely scenario is SLAs, which do not have any outward sign unless explicitly mentioned.

So if there were a creature that specifically could shed its exoskeleton, was capable of motion without exoskeleton, and was known for provoking disgusted reactions in those who see him sans exoskeleton....

Need a creature to fit MitD? Why not Zoidberg?

See, when I say that certain arguments are perfect attached to the correct example, this is what I mean. I can't buy the argument for zodar, but I can buy it for zoiberg.

Hermit crabs take weeks, and on rare occasions months, to moult.
Also a month long process for the coconut crab.

--The human skeleton is constantly reconstructing itself, a process which takes 10-20 years for one full cycle.

I'm not familiar with D&D monsters, but I think a years long moulting process would be reasonable when scaling up for size.

Agreed. But this is not the scenario that fits the original proposal, which is specifically a creature that normally wouldn't make people vomit, and only happened once, exactly when we were shown the circus scene. A creature that is described in fluff or crunch as revolting because of its years-long molting process would of course fit the circus scene.

Grey Wolf

[Peelee]

See, when I say that certain arguments are perfect attached to the correct example, this is what I mean. I can't buy the argument for zodar, but I can buy it for zoiberg.

Grey Wolf

Actually, Zoidberg would also fit with the hunger aspects of MitD, and the innocence/intelligence. Big Game Hunters would surely be surprised to see a Decapodian from Futurama in the OotS-world jungles, to be sure. In fact, if it weren't for all those pesky "abilities" you go on about, Zoidberg would be a pretty good bet.

[KillItWithFire]

Actually, I can. It is not an ironclad argument, but it is not something that can be ignored, either. The first power is a mind reading power/truth telling power of some description. The second is a simple telekinesis. They are as different from each other as either is from a reality revision. And yet they both exhibit pretty much the same drawing style: spiky wave-like purple pattern. As I said, Rich probably wasn't thinking about it, but it seems that is his go-to "look" when drawing psionic powers, and the fact that MitD's escape didn't have any like it has to be taken into account.

I don't think it can be ignored either, it is a weakness of the psionics argument despite how minor it may seem. Not a make-or-break kind of a thing but still, I had tried to defend against it with my earlier post as best I could. The bit discussing how it could've been there but since there wasn't a single panel between beginning casting and post-effect it was simply never onscreen had this goal in mind. One last thing on the subject I'd like to mention is that both instances of psionics being shown are relatively inconsequential. Whereas MitD's display would've been deserving of much more hoo-plah. This could include glowing eyes, or at a stretch, could even be used to help explain the lack of a spikey-wave thing: if there was such an aura, Xykon would have seen it. Everyone in the room would know where the source or the teleporting effect came from, either that or need to show why they were unable to see it and the story clearly demands that no one except MitD knew he was the source. Rich has been known to bend things before to fit his story, all authors do, and it seems a relatively small thing to let slide in the face of the grand scheme of things.

Its not the end for the argument, but it needs to admit to it. Down the line we might get more evidence one way or the other.

I agree, there's simply not that much to work with at the moment.

I can't check how accurate this statement is while at work, but it sounds like you are making the case for me: if regular magic displays changes to the eyes, and psionics is always an aura around the head, and MitD only had eye change, it suggests that he used magic, not psionics.

I was trying to focus more on the aura, or wibbly-wobbly magic stuff that normally accompanies casting. Every time we have seen magic used in the series that aura has been somewhere either in the hand of the caster or on the target and occasionally the eyes. Since this aura is the same one that psionics are represented with, I was trying to say that this argument works just as well against magic as it does psionics.

However, you are also suggesting a false dichotomy. The choice is not only between psionics and regular magic. The most likely scenario is SLAs, which do not have any outward sign unless explicitly mentioned.

I didn't mean to sugguest that it could only be psionics or magic. The point I was trying to make was that if you use that argument for psionics, you have to use it for magic as well. Seeing as there are some entries that rely on magic for the escape you'd have to put the same lens to them also, else provide some reason as to why psionics has to explain it's lack of an aura and magic does not, I did not mean to insinuate those were the only two options.

[Olinser]

Actually, I can. It is not an ironclad argument, but it is not something that can be ignored, either. The first power is a mind reading power/truth telling power of some description. The second is a simple telekinesis. They are as different from each other as either is from a reality revision. And yet they both exhibit pretty much the same drawing style: spiky wave-like purple pattern. As I said, Rich probably wasn't thinking about it, but it seems that is his go-to "look" when drawing psionic powers, and the fact that MitD's escape didn't have any like it has to be taken into account. Its not the end for the argument, but it needs to admit to it. Down the line we might get more evidence one way or the other.



I can't check how accurate this statement is while at work, but it sounds like you are making the case for me: if regular magic displays changes to the eyes, and psionics is always an aura around the head, and MitD only had eye change, it suggests that he used magic, not psionics.

However, you are also suggesting a false dichotomy. The choice is not only between psionics and regular magic. The most likely scenario is SLAs, which do not have any outward sign unless explicitly mentioned.



See, when I say that certain arguments are perfect attached to the correct example, this is what I mean. I can't buy the argument for zodar, but I can buy it for zoiberg.



Agreed. But this is not the scenario that fits the original proposal, which is specifically a creature that normally wouldn't make people vomit, and only happened once, exactly when we were shown the circus scene. A creature that is described in fluff or crunch as revolting because of its years-long molting process would of course fit the circus scene.

Grey Wolf

On the note of the vomit - could that possibly have been a reaction to something that the MiTD was DOING, rather than a reaction to the creature itself?

i.e. A number of animals do and eat things that seriously squick some people out. Maybe something like the MiTD having tentacles, and absently licking something nasty off one of them? Or pooping on the stage, picking it up and eating it? Or nonchalantly eating a human arm/head that somebody fed him?

[RNGgod]

I'm sure this has been noted before, but there's one problem I'm noticing here.


Rich said that "it is possible to guess"; that is, readers of the comic are potentially able to figure out what the MitD is before he reveals it.

But many readers aren't DnD players anymore. I've never played it, for instance, although I understand a decent amount from a decade of reading OotS.

These guesses people have in this thread-- so many of them are obscure, powerful DnD monsters. If Rich doesn't want to say, "Look! It was a splurglewurglemonster the whole time!" (as he says in the commentary to War and XPs), then why would he want to say "Look! It was a [insert creature somewhere from this thread] the whole time!"

I get it, there are a lot of people who WOULD recognize it if that happened. But I think for the reveal to be powerful from a story perspective, it has to be more recognizable. It certainly doesn't have to be, say, "Snarl Jr.," but that would be something the audience can react to. A Zodar is not.


Just my two cents.

[Kish]

I do not see any indication that Rich needs the reveal to be powerful from a story perspective.

Beyond that, unless he's going to reveal that the creature in the darkness is a Kryptonian*, it is certain that the reveal of any massively strong creature with teleportation abilities and sufficient instinctive knowledge of magic to identify half a ritual on sight is going to be obscure to a lot of people. Those people being "non-players of D&D" is not in some way worse than them being, e.g., people who have not read the novels of Fred Saberhagen. It's going to be...something someone else made up. Could be in the first Monster Manual, could be in a novel, could be in an obscure sourcebook only published in France; Rich committed himself only to it being something that was made up by someone other than him.

*Not that a Kryptonian would actually explain anything but the strength.

[DaggerPen]

On the subject of psionic displays, a few things of note:

First, a list of psionic abilities with olfactory displays specified for the ability:

Expansion

Metamorphosis

Compression

Reddopsi

Levitate

Vigor

Grease

Demoralize

Thicken Skin

Mind Blank

(This may be missing a few, sadly, as the custom Google search on the D20 SRD is somewhat dysfunctional.)

The interesting thing to note here is that a lot of the spells with olfactory displays are of the Psychometabolism type and involve altering ones own form. While the Protean's shapechanging ability is not explicitly psionic, I wonder if it might still have an olfactory display... and of course, the Protean is always shifting. It's a stretch, though.

Also, Psionic Levitation also has an explicitly olfactory display, but as even assuming that the MitD had levitate while at the circus, he "did nothing" in the circus scene, so this is probably not the cause of his odor, unless he was lifting something in the dark while talking to Redcloak and then just ran out of power points to lift the bucket when being removed (unlikely).

In addition, I want to put the description of olfactory and visual displays here again:

Olfactory

An odd but familiar odor brings to mind a brief mental flash of a long-buried memory. The scent is difficult to pin down, and no two individuals ever describe it the same way. The odor originates from the manifester and spreads to a distance of 20 feet, then fades in less than a second (or lasts for the duration, at the manifester’s option).


Visual

The manifester’s eyes burn like points of silver fire while the power remains in effect. A rainbow-flash of light sweeps away from the manifester to a distance of 5 feet and then dissipates, unless a unique visual display is described. This is the case when the Display entry includes “see text,” which means that a visual effect is described somewhere in the text of the power.

Finally, worth noting again that Trace Teleport and Psionic Teleport are both specified as having visual displays. Reality Revision does not have a specified display. Bend Reality does, but its ability to mimic a teleport is arguable.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

On the note of the vomit - could that possibly have been a reaction to something that the MiTD was DOING, rather than a reaction to the creature itself?

It is explicitly pointed out by his handler that he "just stands there".

Rich said that "it is possible to guess"; that is, readers of the comic are potentially able to figure out what the MitD is before he reveals it.

He said that he expected someone to figure it out. He did not say he expected everyone to be able to figure it out.

But my interpretation might be wrong. If you think it is a well known creature that fits all the clues, by all means propose it. Thor knows it never stopped the guys suggesting the Tarrasque.

Grey Wolf

[Shale]

Bear in mind that he chose the creature back around strip 100, when the audience was predominantly D&D nerds.

[KillItWithFire]

Rich said that "it is possible to guess"; that is, readers of the comic are potentially able to figure out what the MitD is before he reveals it.

But many readers aren't DnD players anymore. I've never played it, for instance, although I understand a decent amount from a decade of reading OotS.

possible to guess != possible for everyone in the audience to instantly recognize

He never said it would be easy. And he never said that it was possible for everyone to guess. I think all he meant by that statement is that the information describing MitD exists somewhere besides Rich's head and writing notes.

These guesses people have in this thread-- so many of them are obscure, powerful DnD monsters. If Rich doesn't want to say, "Look! It was a splurglewurglemonster the whole time!" (as he says in the commentary to War and XPs), then why would he want to say "Look! It was a [insert creature somewhere from this thread] the whole time!"

There are only so many things for everyone in the audience to instantly recognize. Many of the readers of the comic are D&D players and the comic did start as a D&D comic. While it has broadened quite a bit since then there will still be a lot of material that readers will get a deeper meaning for if they are familiar with the base matter, not every element of the comic is meant to be fully enjoyed by every individual audience member. Powerful D&D creatures are being proposed because, well they're powerful and this is a D&D world, it simply makes the most sense. The fact that they all come in convenient, quantifiable packets of numbers and information doesn't hurt either. Also keep in mind that Rich knew what MitD was as far back as comic 100, when it was still very much for D&D players.

I get it, there are a lot of people who WOULD recognize it if that happened.

Wait I thought many readers weren't D&D players any more.

But I think for the reveal to be powerful from a story perspective, it has to be more recognizable. It certainly doesn't have to be, say, "Snarl Jr.," but that would be something the audience can react to. A Zodar is not.

We're left with a shockingly small pool of monsters if you want something that I would expect the average layman to know, and none of it particularly exciting. You don't need to recognize the creature for it to be a strong reveal, you just need to recognize the power of it.

Once all's said and done though, what creatures are something the audience can react to is an entirely subjective description and that's not the point of this thread. What we're trying to do is find a monster who fits everything MitD is able to do and doesn't contradict anything he can't. D&D monsters are much better for that comparison simply because everything they can and can't do is neatly spelled out for us. It doesn't have to be though. For a while our best proposal was Snorlax.

Reality Revision does not have a specified display. Bend Reality does, but its ability to mimic a teleport is arguable.

It does however say "As bend reality" which to me says same displays.

[JustSomeGuy]

Actually, Zoidberg would also fit with the hunger aspects of MitD, and the innocence/intelligence. Big Game Hunters would surely be surprised to see a Decapodian from Futurama in the OotS-world jungles, to be sure. In fact, if it weren't for all those pesky "abilities" you go on about, Zoidberg would be a pretty good bet.

Wasn't zoidberg a big, tough tunnelling beast in one of the specials?

[DaggerPen]

It does however say "As bend reality" which to me says same displays.

Ooh, good catch. That seems to me to indicate that all of the displays for the known psionic escape explanations are visual, then, which is interesting.

The given visual display fluff kind of fits- the "burn like points of silver fire" sounds really good, but the rainbow wave doesn't work. It could easily have been hidden by the box, though, as was noted when psionic displays were first brought up, IIRC.

[Bulldog Psion]

Also, a major part of the comic still is based on D&D. And D&D is the world's single richest source of possible creatures, in part due to the OGL.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I believe it is an appropriate time for me to point out two things:

1) I, too, think the curve of probability suggests that MitD is a D&D creature

2) That does not mean it must be

I have never countered a suggestion with "it isn't D&D", and the once or twice it has happened I've been the first to shut down such argumentation. No creature anywhere in the first post has that phrase as a con (touch wood).

This disclaimer brought to you by the "can't be too bloody careful in this climate" board of disclaimers.

GW

[DaggerPen]

Also, regarding the psionic displays seen in the comic: I donno if Rich checked for a specific psionic ability for the Blue scene, but the likely candidates are:

Mind Probe (Telepath 5, gives partial Will save, has an auditory, material and visual display.)

and

Read Thoughts (Telepath 2, gives access only to surface thoughts, has a complete Will save- easier access, but way less powerful, has only a mental display.)

Only the former has a visual display, but it also has an auditory and material display. The effect seen does not match the visual display descriptors.

As for "The Little Psion that Could," Psionic Levitate - what he is likely using- has an olfactory display regardless, so.

Oh, also, something interesting: "
Material

The subject or the area is briefly slicked with a translucent, shimmering substance. The glistening substance evaporates after 1 round regardless of the power’s duration. Sophisticated psions recognize the material as ectoplasmic seepage from the Astral Plane; this substance is completely inert. "

The connection between the Astral Plane and Psionics has been noted before, IIRC, but it's interesting that this type of seepage can occur during everyday power usage.

[SavageWombat]

I believe it is an appropriate time for me to point out two things:

1) I, too, think the curve of probability suggests that MitD is a D&D creature

2) That does not mean it must be


GW

Since this has been brought up, I want to raise this question:

If it's NOT a D&D monster, but it's something Rich thinks readers would be familiar with - what other sources would be possible?

1) Mythology in general (overlaps with D&D heavily)
2) Cthulhu mythos
3) Pokémon

I know these have been at least mentioned. None of them have given me any insight - does anyone else have a suggestion?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Since this has been brought up, I want to raise this question:

If it's NOT a D&D monster, but it's something Rich thinks readers would be familiar with - what other sources would be possible?

1) Mythology in general (overlaps with D&D heavily)
2) Cthulhu mythos
3) Pokémon

I know these have been at least mentioned. None of them have given me any insight - does anyone else have a suggestion?

Lewis Carroll's weird stuff also gets mentioned every so often.

I'd add folklore, since that is not really mythology, although it also overlaps (or rather, has been heavily stolen from) by D&D

Edit: if you count Pokemon, you have to add all other copyrighted sources mentioned in the OP. There was a black magician version in some Final Fantasy or another that got an excellent case made for it.

GW

[Emanick]

It is explicitly pointed out by his handler that he "just stands there".

What if the MitD's nose constantly dribbles phlegm, the appearance of which is so disgusting that viewers must save or vomit?

Ridiculous example, obviously, but we can't rule out the possibility that it is something the MitD is doing, not its actual appearance, that is making people react as strongly as they are. A "Frightful Presence" ability, for example, comes pretty close to doing the trick (although I don't think it can explain all the dialogue coming from the audience).

I don't think this is the case, but I also don't think it's a possibility that can be dismissed.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I don't think this is the case, but I also don't think it's a possibility that can be dismissed.

I have no idea why you would think they are. Passive abilities are commonly used to explain the circus scene.

Frightful presence, however, doesn't match the circus public's reactions.

GW