MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

[SavageWombat]

Times like these I wish I knew French, suffice to say "This is not a pipe" then. Miko is not a player playing Miko being informed of her attacks by a DM, Miko is Miko, and Miko saw only that her attacks did not damage MitD.

Please remember that this is a world where both PCs and NPCs (monsters, see the intro) actually know what they rolled to hit a given target. Miko, player or no, is a character who knows the rules under which her world operates.

[KillItWithFire]

Please remember that this is a world where both PCs and NPCs (monsters, see the intro) actually know what they rolled to hit a given target. Miko, player or no, is a character who knows the rules under which her world operates.

Yes. Yes she is. Thing is none of those rules tell her if she missed (or was deflected as she would by plate armor) due to AC or was reduced to 0 by DR. There is simply no way for her to know that. There is no "DM" to tell her why she failed to do damage. She knows her roll and she knows it wasn't good enough. That's it. This back and forth is kind of pointless though and I'm sorry for getting into it. It just gets me a little bit when people treat assumptions as facts. AT the end of the day we come out with all the same information anyway so I'm going to back out now before I get myself too heated.

[SavageWombat]

Yes. Yes she is. Thing is none of those rules tell her if she missed (or was deflected as she would by plate armor) due to AC or was reduced to 0 by DR. There is simply no way for her to know that. There is no "DM" to tell her why she failed to do damage. She knows her roll and she knows it wasn't good enough. That's it. This back and forth is kind of pointless though and I'm sorry for getting into it. It just gets me a little bit when people treat assumptions as facts. AT the end of the day we come out with all the same information anyway so I'm going to back out now before I get myself too heated.

Yes, those rules do in fact tell her if she missed or did no damage. That's why they're rules, and not interactive theater.

I don't know why people continue to argue while claiming there's no point in arguing.

[KillItWithFire]

Yes, those rules do in fact tell her if she missed or did no damage. That's why they're rules, and not interactive theater.

I don't know why people continue to argue while claiming there's no point in arguing.

It's a failing of mine, I admit. I enjoy the sport of debate too much and often can't reign myself in once I get going. I have Kish to thank this time for reminding me that this is in fact, not constructive. We're sidetracked enough as it is though to the point where I have forgotten the original point you made.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I have forgotten the original point you made.

He is trying to argue that MitD must have DR based on that sequence. I believe his base argument is that his DM would tell him if he had missed or if he had hit, and failed to do damage due to DR. My DMs were never that nice.

More to the point, we don't know if OotS characters can tell. Yes, Miko thinks it is DR, but this is Miko. Her primary characterisation is her ability to jump to unsupported conclusions. In comparison, Belkar didn't think it was DR, he merely knew he was completely outclassed, and walked away.

In essence, we don't know. I don't particularly care if MitD has resistance, or DR, high AC, or just massive amounts of HP, all of which can be fluffed to mean that sword hits and stab wounds are ignorable or tickle. Since we don't see his body, we can't tell if Miko managed to scratch him. Until we do, all four alternatives are pretty much valid.

Grey Wolf

[SavageWombat]

He is trying to argue that MitD must have DR based on that sequence. I believe his base argument is that his DM would tell him if he had missed or if he had hit, and failed to do damage due to DR. My DMs were never that nice.

Actually, my original point was that I thought it was obvious that Miko was trying to hurt or kill the MitD, not play "light touch" with it. But lots of people wanted to argue with me about DR vs. AC.

[JustSomeGuy]

all of which can be fluffed to mean that sword hits and stab wounds are ignorable or tickle. Since we don't see his body, we can't tell if Miko managed to scratch him. Until we do, all four alternatives are pretty much valid.

Schrodinger's stab wounds?

[HuskyBoi]

Just realised something that may have been mentioned before, but I thought it was a point worth making:

The Monster was able to play Go with O-Chul from inside his cage in this strip. Given that the Monster keeps saying "Your move", he must be moving the pieces himself and not directing O-Chul to move them for him.

So in order to play from inside the cage, he must have either fairly slender (and long) limbs to pick up the pieces, or telekinetic ability. O-Chul never gives any indication, here or later, of knowing what the Monster looks like, which makes me suspect he can't have seen any limbs sticking out of the cage.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Just realised something that may have been mentioned before, but I thought it was a point worth making:

The Monster was able to play Go with O-Chul from inside his cage in this strip. Given that the Monster keeps saying "Your move", he must be moving the pieces himself and not directing O-Chul to move them for him.

So in order to play from inside the cage, he must have either fairly slender (and long) limbs to pick up the pieces, or telekinetic ability. O-Chul never gives any indication, here or later, of knowing what the Monster looks like, which makes me suspect he can't have seen any limbs sticking out of the cage.

See section 2b: Psionics.

GW

[Peelee]

First post update:

Creatures added:
Zoidberg (under copyright)

Status: Complete

Woot! Now to find some way to claim he was able to teleport O-Chul and Z, and somehow give any argument over Zoidberg more hilarity, and my goal to get him into section 3a will be complete! I shall lose Zoidberg upon this world!

[HuskyBoi]

See section 2b: Psionics.

Ah yes, apologies! I didn't consider that it might be under psionics, since I've never played with them. Sorry for redundant posting.

[zimmerwald1915]

More to the point, we don't know if OotS characters can tell. Yes, Miko thinks it is DR, but this is Miko. Her primary characterisation is her ability to jump to unsupported conclusions. In comparison, Belkar didn't think it was DR, he merely knew he was completely outclassed, and walked away.

This isn't specific to MitD, but Haley could tell that Xykon's zombie dragon had damage reduction, and that that damage reduction was what caused their weapons to "not have any effect on it". We know that her ability to identify damage reduction as such is independent of her ability to identify monsters, because she knew Sabine had damage reduction before she knew her subtypes.

Based on this, I think it is safe enough to follow the characters when they identify DR as DR.

[Savannah]

The description of DR states that either the wound heals instantly or the weapon bounces off and in either case the attacker is immediately aware that their attack had little or no effect. So RAW, characters know about DR as soon as they hit.

[KillItWithFire]

This isn't specific to MitD, but Haley could tell that Xykon's zombie dragon had damage reduction, and that that damage reduction was what caused their weapons to "not have any effect on it". We know that her ability to identify damage reduction as such is independent of her ability to identify monsters, because she knew Sabine had damage reduction before she knew her subtypes.

Based on this, I think it is safe enough to follow the characters when they identify DR as DR.

Just to play the part of the contrarian here... Haley's exact phrase was she "didn't think they had any effect." She then inferred damage reduction from that. Dragons have notoriously low AC due to their size you see. The sabine case is even easier. What she knew was that Sabine was either a demon or a devil, just looking at her is enough to determine that I'm sure near any layman would be able to come to the same conclusion. Since both those creature types have DR and Sabine is one of those types, she must have DR. The question was only what type. In essence, it falls prey to the same thing it does when Miko says it. We are only hearing what Haley has inferred from the results of attacking it, that doesn't mean she's right.

What this means in terms of MitD: Yes, I will agree that DR is the most probable explanation for the tower scene, however I feel there is nowhere near enough evidence to make the case that it is the ONLY one. Meaning submissions should not be discredited on this merit alone.

[Emanick]

Just to play the part of the contrarian here... Haley's exact phrase was she "didn't think they had any effect." She then inferred damage reduction from that. Dragons have notoriously low AC due to their size you see. The sabine case is even easier. What she knew was that Sabine was either a demon or a devil, just looking at her is enough to determine that I'm sure near any layman would be able to come to the same conclusion. Since both those creature types have DR and Sabine is one of those types, she must have DR. The question was only what type. In essence, it falls prey to the same thing it does when Miko says it. We are only hearing what Haley has inferred from the results of attacking it, that doesn't mean she's right.

What this means in terms of MitD: Yes, I will agree that DR is the most probable explanation for the tower scene, however I feel there is nowhere near enough evidence to make the case that it is the ONLY one. Meaning submissions should not be discredited on this merit alone.

To add to that, Haley has the advantage of being able to see the body of the monster she's attacking. Miko does not. That should probably make a big difference in terms of how easy it is to tell whether or not DR is in play.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Woot! Now to find some way to claim he was able to teleport O-Chul and Z, and somehow give any argument over Zoidberg more hilarity, and my goal to get him into section 3a will be complete! I shall lose Zoidberg upon this world!

I know you are just kidding, but for the record, I don't put not-WotC company-owned copyrights outside of the copyright section (unless I put them in the light-hearted section), due to reasons mostly related to board rules. If you do find an escape explanation for zoidberg, though, I may give it a write-up similar to the one for Snorlax, though.

Ah yes, apologies! I didn't consider that it might be under psionics, since I've never played with them. Sorry for redundant posting.

I've said this quite a few times lately, but I think it bears repeating: I do not have a problem with bringing old topics back, unless they have been discussed very recently (as in, the last few pages and/or last couple of weeks). I point to the first post so you can see what was the last conclusion reached (as filtered through me), not so you think that we have somehow "done discussing it".

Perfect example: RC lifting the box. I pointed to the post saying that RC wasn't strong enough, and the person wanting to discuss it suggested strength-boosting items. We ended up not going for that, but in talking of it, cleric strength-boosting spells were suggested and have now made it to the first post. You can never tell, but topics do need occasional dusting to see if new brains can come up with new ideas.

As to "go game suggest psionics", looking at my write up, I feel it might need rewording. I know what I mean, but looking at it with fresh eyes, I'm not sure someone new to the conversation would.

To add to that, Haley has the advantage of being able to see the body of the monster she's attacking. Miko does not. That should probably make a big difference in terms of how easy it is to tell whether or not DR is in play.

I agree completely with Emanick and KillItWithFire. Haley not knowing which substance was the one that actually pierced DR indicates that the "DM" of OotS does not, in fact, tell them what attacks hit and did damage and which didn't. All Haley could tell is that one of the two did, because there was blood and pain. Lacking the visual information when attacking MitD, Miko couldn't tell it was DR, and, as I said above, if the point was about her intentions in the tower, then it is OT for this thread.

Grey Wolf

[Olinser]

I just noticed something rereading the comic, specifically regarding the Escape scene.

While the MiTD does say something to the Demon Roaches after the Escape in

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0661.html

In literally the next panel

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0662.html

He is fast asleep.

Have we considered that him sleeping (quite soundly given that his friend was just in mortal danger), is the result of whatever ability he used?

Are there any abilities that have some kind of negative sleep/consciousness/Will feedback on the caster after using/casting?

[KillItWithFire]

I just noticed something rereading the comic, specifically regarding the Escape scene.

While the MiTD does say something to the Demon Roaches after the Escape in

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0661.html

In literally the next panel

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0662.html

He is fast asleep.

Have we considered that him sleeping (quite soundly given that his friend was just in mortal danger), is the result of whatever ability he used?

Are there any abilities that have some kind of negative sleep/consciousness/Will feedback on the caster after using/casting?

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0477.html Also note MitD's dialog in the 3rd-to-last panel. (This is the earthquake scene btw) I don't remember if it's in the first post or not, if not I think it really should be. It seems a common thread that binds these things together and while it could just be showing how the abilities are draining on him energy-wise, it doesn't hurt to mention it.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Have we considered that him sleeping (quite soundly given that his friend was just in mortal danger), is the result of whatever ability he used?

Often, but D&D has a surprisingly few number of creatures that require sleeping after using abilities, so as a clue it has produced few fruits.

Are there any abilities that have some kind of negative sleep/consciousness/Will feedback on the caster after using/casting?

Yep; I understand that psionics have a few of those, but, as per above, no proposal has made good use of it. I keep expecting this to be more important than it ever seems to become so, like the earthquake, we are forced to assume we are reading too much into it, and proceed with "indicates he used a power" and not look for specific rules about it.

Here's hoping this time it is different.

Edit:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0477.html Also note MitD's dialog in the 3rd-to-last panel. (This is the earthquake scene btw) I don't remember if it's in the first post or not, if not I think it really should be. It seems a common thread that binds these things together and while it could just be showing how the abilities are draining on him energy-wise, it doesn't hurt to mention it.

The problem is the lack of conclusion. Like the "can't see the gates" clue, while I can agree it feels like it might be a clue, I don't have anything to tie it to. This is more serious that the gate thing, too, since it's not a punchline or funny moment, but without a D&D rule I can attach to it, it feels rather pointless. I could add it to the FAQ, I suppose.

Grey Wolf

[KillItWithFire]

I could add it to the FAQ, I suppose.

I think we should do something with it. It's better to have it there in our little archive as it does seem a consistent pattern, worst case scenario being we don't use the information at all, but at least we have it. If the FAQ is where you think best put it there, but I think it fits just fine in section 4.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I think we should do something with it. It's better to have it there in our little archive as it does seem a consistent pattern, worst case scenario being we don't use the information at all, but at least we have it. If the FAQ is where you think best put it there, but I think it fits just fine in section 4.

That's part of the FAQs, actually, even if it is called "Appendices" . I really should combine both sections. In any case, that's the one I was thinking of.

GW

[KillItWithFire]

That's part of the FAQs, actually, even if it is called "Appendices" . I really should combine both sections. In any case, that's the one I was thinking of.

GW

In that case I agree completely.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

In that case I agree completely.

I suspect you don't, actually. I still don't know what to say in such entry. At least with the "can't see the gates" I could say it was likely just a joke. If someone does the footwork of how to translate "falls asleep after using the powers" into D&D, or tells me what game system that feels like a reference to, I can be happier about adding the section.

GW

[KillItWithFire]

I suspect you don't, actually. I still don't know what to say in such entry. At least with the "can't see the gates" I could say it was likely just a joke. If someone does the footwork of how to translate "falls asleep after using the powers" into D&D, or tells me what game system that feels like a reference to, I can be happier about adding the section.

GW

Ah, I see what you're saying. It seems like something that should be easy to find a D&D example of but strangely, it isn't.

[Savannah]

I think we could list it as a potential clue and note which strips show it, then note how it is hard to find in D&D abilities.

[Kish]

You know...

While this doesn't specify "causes the caster to sleep," I think it's interesting.

Psychic Enervation: Each time a wilder uses her wild surge ability, there's a chance the effort will leave her debilitated. Immediately following a wild surge, there's a chance equal to 5% times the manifester increase provided by the wild surge that the wilder becomes dazed until the end of her next turn. If enervation strikes, the wilder also loses psionic power points equal to her wilder level.

(This is from the WotC webpage. I know, because I have seen other people refer to it, that the 3.5ed Wilder has a similar effect. I suspect that the 3.5ed Wilder has this exact effect, described in exactly those words, officially. However, I do not own the 3.5ed Psionics Handbook and cannot say so with certainty.)

[Qwertystop]

You know...

While this doesn't specify "causes the caster to sleep," I think it's interesting.


(This is from the WotC webpage. I know, because I have seen other people refer to it, that the 3.5ed Wilder has a similar effect. I suspect that the 3.5ed Wilder has this exact effect, described in exactly those words, officially. However, I do not own the 3.5ed Psionics Handbook and cannot say so with certainty.)

Yep. On the other hand, Wild Surge won't let you use powers you couldn't use anyway. It just boosts your manifester level. In the case of a hypothetical teleportation power, that would most likely increase distance or number transportable, or reduce mishap chance. Other numerical boosts are also possible. However, we don't have any power that would be good except for one of those things.

[DaggerPen]

Hey, has anyone linked to the Complete D&D Monsters List before? Because this has basically every monster ever published in D&D compiled, including their size, environment, release date, source, CR, unique/nonunique status, and URL where their info can be found (if there is one), among other things, though not spell lists or stats, so you'll have to check for those. Still, might be worth trying to narrow this down some and then just go through the entries systematically. I've got the file open in OpenOffice right now, though I've run into a small snag in OpenOffice's sorting algorithm that is making just grabbing all the monsters with a CR of 17 or more a bit difficult.

[Steven]

I always have trouble with the open office sorting. I find it easier to put it in google docs for sorting.

[DaggerPen]

Okay, so I gave the list a quick read-through, and it looks to be astonishingly complete. Nothing jumped out at me as an MitD candidate, and I did check several, but some I couldn't find stat blocks on, and again, I didn't go through every single creature of appropriate CR, so this would definitely be worth farming for candidates that have yet to appear.