MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

[Grey_Wolf_c]

The first post tells us about the minimum but says nothing about the maximum.

There is nothing to say about the maximum, unfortunately. Since he considers pulling "hard", he would grab with every available prehensile limb not required to stay standing and brace against the floor. Put another way, if I has under the umbrella and was told to pull on a rope, I too would drop everything else I had on my hands.

As usual, this is not the only possible interpretation but, since it is a plausible interpretation and there is no other evidence for or against, I'd rather leave it out of the first post because listing every possible interpretation is just too much work.

Grey Wolf

[DaggerPen]

Re: the teleport discussion: remember also that Trace Teleport can let you teleport to a location as though you've "seen it casually", so if MitD also has Trace Teleport (as the Neothelid does), he might have been able to send them back that way, since they teleported back almost exactly where V left and was trying to teleport back to with the teleport that got cut off.

[Starwaster]

Re: the teleport discussion: remember also that Trace Teleport can let you teleport to a location as though you've "seen it casually", so if MitD also has Trace Teleport (as the Neothelid does), he might have been able to send them back that way, since they teleported back almost exactly where V left and was trying to teleport back to with the teleport that got cut off.

And he wouldn't have been able to use Trace Teleport on the Hobgoblin because the Hobgoblin hadn't teleported anywhere!

But you're not suggesting he IS a Neothelid though, are you? They have no eyes and no limbs for stomping... what other monsters might use Trace Teleport?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

And he wouldn't have been able to use Trace Teleport on the Hobgoblin because the Hobgoblin hadn't teleported anywhere!

What hobgoblin? MitD could trace teleport on V, and just teleport O-Chul and V back along the route V took to get there in the first place.

GW

[Starwaster]

What hobgoblin? MitD could trace teleport on V, and just teleport O-Chul and V back along the route V took to get there in the first place.

GW

Later on, the MitD tried to teleport a Hobgoblin. (trying to duplicate what he did with O-Chul). But, it didn't work because there had been no teleportation recently for him to trace. If it *IS* Trace Teleport then that would explain why it didn't work on the Hobgoblin. That's what I meant.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0699.html

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Later on, the MitD tried to teleport a Hobgoblin. (trying to duplicate what he did with O-Chul). But, it didn't work because there had been no teleportation recently for him to trace. If it *IS* Trace Teleport then that would explain why it didn't work on the Hobgoblin. That's what I meant.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0699.html

Ah, I get it now. Good point. Sorry, left-field shots throw me off.

GW

[Qwertystop]

Does Trace Teleport allow actual teleporting as part of the spell, or does it just give you the info with which you can then teleport if you wish?


The difference is, in the former case the creature would not need to also have Teleport.

Also, as far as the inability of MitD to teleport the Hobgoblin being due to a lack of traceable teleports: That would only matter if the teleportation ability is one that requires a precise target (Greater Teleport and things based on it). One with a mishap chance for imprecision instead (Teleport and things based on it) would work whether or not precision is required - the Hob would just have gone somewhere vaguely related to the target in thematics or general area, possibly dying in transit.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Does Trace Teleport allow actual teleporting as part of the spell, or does it just give you the info with which you can then teleport if you wish?

Only gives you the info (source).

Also, as far as the inability of MitD to teleport the Hobgoblin being due to a lack of traceable teleports: That would only matter if the teleportation ability is one that requires a precise target (Greater Teleport and things based on it). One with a mishap chance for imprecision instead (Teleport and things based on it) would work whether or not precision is required - the Hob would just have gone somewhere vaguely related to the target in thematics or general area, possibly dying in transit.

The goblin was most likely not teleported because MitD wasn't as emotionally commited. Or, maybe he tried to send the goblin to "his and O-Chul's friends" or some other complete impossibility - if the area you are teleporting doesn't exist, and neither does any area similar, the spell "simply fails" (If no such area exists within the spell’s range, the spell simply fails instead).

Grey Wolf

[Shadowknight12]

The Yali, from Monsters of the Mind (by Green Ronin) has (according to a 3.5e conversion I found) Trace Teleport, Psionic Teleport and Psionic Plane Shift, Mental Barrier (might explain the damage resilience), Psionic Divination (might explain how it knew about the Astral Plane and Xykon's ritual), Psionic Identify (another explanation for identifying the ritual) and Psionic Blast (the "STOP!" scene). And it's a TN Huge Magical Beast. That might be worth checking, if someone has access to that sourcebook. A high enough strength might justify the tower scene, and maybe even the stomp. No idea how it looks like, appearance-wise.

EDIT: Found this blurb:

Yali
Huge Magical Beast

Source(s): Monsters of the Mind
Alignment: Often True Neutral
Climate/Terrain: Warm Land
Organization: Solitary, pair, or family (3-5)
Challenge Rating: 15

Sagacious and wise, these ancient creatures are on a quest for knowledge and tranquillity. They are not, however, particularly friendly to humanoids. A yali has the forequarters of a lion and the hindquarters and head of an elephant.

Not sure if we're allowed to copypaste that kind of stuff, so if that's a breach of copyright, let me know and I'll take it down.

[Starwaster]

The Yali, from Monsters of the Mind (by Green Ronin) has (according to a 3.5e conversion I found) Trace Teleport, Psionic Teleport and Psionic Plane Shift, Mental Barrier (might explain the damage resilience), Psionic Divination (might explain how it knew about the Astral Plane and Xykon's ritual), Psionic Identify (another explanation for identifying the ritual) and Psionic Blast (the "STOP!" scene). And it's a TN Huge Magical Beast. That might be worth checking, if someone has access to that sourcebook. A high enough strength might justify the tower scene, and maybe even the stomp. No idea how it looks like, appearance-wise.

EDIT: Found this blurb:



Not sure if we're allowed to copypaste that kind of stuff, so if that's a breach of copyright, let me know and I'll take it down.

You haven't pasted anything that isn't easily covered under Fair Use. Very interesting power set....

Would Rich have strayed outside stock AD&D for the source of MitD?

[Shadowknight12]

You haven't pasted anything that isn't easily covered under Fair Use. Very interesting power set....

Would Rich have strayed outside stock AD&D for the source of MitD?

Oh, that's a relief. I still have the conversion file with the updated powers for 3.5e open in a tab. Would that be okay to post as well? Perhaps someone more sagacious than me will be able to see a power and go "That explains X!"

Also, now that I noticed, if the creature has the hindquarters of an elephant (and is Huge), it might have a very powerful stomp.

[SavageWombat]

Oh, that's a relief. I still have the conversion file with the updated powers for 3.5e open in a tab. Would that be okay to post as well? Perhaps someone more sagacious than me will be able to see a power and go "That explains X!"

Also, now that I noticed, if the creature has the hindquarters of an elephant (and is Huge), it might have a very powerful stomp.

Not exactly indescribably hideous and/or beautiful though.

[Shadowknight12]

Not exactly indescribably hideous and/or beautiful though.

Tenth Panel. That head, plus a lion's forequarters (we've seen many lions in the comic), plus an elephant's hindquarters.

Sounds indescribable and hideous to me. The beautiful might come from the eyes (which are a very pretty shade of green) or a high charisma score.

I guess we'll just have to wait for someone knowledgeable to read the entry in the actual book, though.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Not exactly indescribably hideous and/or beautiful though.

Agreed. Although it does have the "never seen anything like it before" part down, though. Picture of a Yali.

However, that is the RL religion Yali. I'll see if I can google the D&D version.

Grey Wolf

[SavageWombat]

Agreed. Although it does have the "never seen anything like it before" part down, though. Picture of a Yali.

However, that is the RL religion Yali. I'll see if I can google the D&D version.

Grey Wolf

Personally, if I saw that coming at me, I'd say it was a Baku. I wonder if there's a connection.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Personally, if I saw that coming at me, I'd say it was a Baku. I wonder if there's a connection.

If they are both from the hindu religion, it might just be that the picture is mislabeled. It's not like I can tell them apart, myself.

If it helps, it seems that the 3rd edition Yali is described in Monsters of the Mind.

There should be an official picture in there, but google isn't showing it.

GW

[Shadowknight12]

Personally, if I saw that coming at me, I'd say it was a Baku. I wonder if there's a connection.

For what I'm seeing, it definitely has psionics, a roar and a stomp attack. However, it doesn't seem to have any teleportation powers and its main power seems to be the ability to turn invisible (which would make all the darkness thing quite useless).

The Dragon Magazine #65 that I consulted gives the baku the following powers: "Animal Telepathy, Body Control, Body Equilibrium, Cell Adjustment, Detection of Good/Evil, Reduction, and Shape Alteration."

They can also become ethereal and travel astrally at will, so it's possible that's where the MitD got its knowledge of the Astral Plane from. It's somewhat possible that the reason it was immune to Belkar and Miko's attacks was because it was ethereal, though it seems somewhat implausible.

EDIT:

Turns out a friend of mine had the MotM book after all. The Yali looks like a gigantic elephant, with its only slight quirk being the lion front paws. It has a Str of 30, Cha of 21, DR 20/Adamantine, the "trumpet" ability (which acts like a panicking roar), it has a +23 on any one Knowledge check (which might well be Arcana or The Planes), the Power Attack and Deep Impact feats, and 16 HD.

It is definitely not "hideous" if you don't find gigantic elephants hideous.

EDIT 2:

Took the liberty of uploading the picture to imageshack.

Warning: Enormous image size. Might break your screen.

Spoiler

Show

[DaggerPen]

For what I'm seeing, it definitely has psionics, a roar and a stomp attack. However, it doesn't seem to have any teleportation powers and its main power seems to be the ability to turn invisible (which would make all the darkness thing quite useless).

The Dragon Magazine #65 that I consulted gives the baku the following powers: "Animal Telepathy, Body Control, Body Equilibrium, Cell Adjustment, Detection of Good/Evil, Reduction, and Shape Alteration."

They can also become ethereal and travel astrally at will, so it's possible that's where the MitD got its knowledge of the Astral Plane from. It's somewhat possible that the reason it was immune to Belkar and Miko's attacks was because it was ethereal, though it seems somewhat implausible.

EDIT:

Turns out a friend of mine had the MotM book after all. The Yali looks like a gigantic elephant, with its only slight quirk being the lion front paws. It has a Str of 30, Cha of 21, DR 20/Adamantine, the "trumpet" ability (which acts like a panicking roar), it has a +23 on any one Knowledge check (which might well be Arcana or The Planes), the Power Attack and Deep Impact feats, and 16 HD.

It is definitely not "hideous" if you don't find gigantic elephants hideous.

EDIT 2:

Took the liberty of uploading the picture to imageshack.

Warning: Enormous image size. Might break your screen.

Spoiler

Show

Hrm. Definitely unusual, and I could see a wizard having trouble identifying it, but vomit-inducing is a rather large stretch, unfortunately. Still, that's a very interesting combination... this thing is only CR 15?

[Shadowknight12]

Hrm. Definitely unusual, and I could see a wizard having trouble identifying it, but vomit-inducing is a rather large stretch, unfortunately. Still, that's a very interesting combination... this thing is only CR 15?

Maybe the vomit was a red herring? After all, it can't be THAT bad when only one person is vomiting.

Yeah, only CR 15, but it can advance via class levels (and has a LA of +2 on top of the 16 HD) so you could conceivably end up with an example like the Black Dragon, who clearly had sorcerer levels on top of the ordinary HD advancement.

The main problem I have with the Yali is that, if I may channel Elan for a second, it has no dramatic punch. The MotM flavour text has no relation to anything we've seen in the MitD, its culture/setting hasn't appeared in the comic strip at all, and neither the mythological origin nor the D&D flavour have anything to do with the MitD's character arc and growth. There really is no reason for the Giant to have selected a Yali.

The Baku, on the other hand, fits a lot better narratively, with its struggle between good and evil, and how it spends most of its time invisible among others (a nice dramatic echo with the constant darkness). A shame the Baku as statted is such a weakling.

[Crusher]

Maybe the vomit was a red herring? After all, it can't be THAT bad when only one person is vomiting.

Yeah, only CR 15, but it can advance via class levels (and has a LA of +2 on top of the 16 HD) so you could conceivably end up with an example like the Black Dragon, who clearly had sorcerer levels on top of the ordinary HD advancement.

The main problem I have with the Yali is that, if I may channel Elan for a second, it has no dramatic punch. The MotM flavour text has no relation to anything we've seen in the MitD, its culture/setting hasn't appeared in the comic strip at all, and neither the mythological origin nor the D&D flavour have anything to do with the MitD's character arc and growth. There really is no reason for the Giant to have selected a Yali.

The Baku, on the other hand, fits a lot better narratively, with its struggle between good and evil, and how it spends most of its time invisible among others (a nice dramatic echo with the constant darkness). A shame the Baku as statted is such a weakling.

Yeah, the Baku is a good fit for the MitD in terms of fluff, but its a good ways short in terms of sheer power. Its slightly too weak physically, but the real problems are that it doesn't have a *true* teleport ability to explain the Escape and possibly even worse its defenses are just atrocious. Normally that's fine since they rely on people not realizing they're there in the first place. But just standing there, either Miko or Belkar would have cut it to shreds.

[Shadowknight12]

Yeah, the Baku is a good fit for the MitD in terms of fluff, but its a good ways short in terms of sheer power. Its slightly too weak physically, but the real problems are that it doesn't have a *true* teleport ability to explain the Escape and possibly even worse its defenses are just atrocious. Normally that's fine since they rely on people not realizing they're there in the first place. But just standing there, either Miko or Belkar would have cut it to shreds.

It also gets further undermined by how Xykon and Redcloak treat the MitD as though his race was incredibly strong. We could have said "maybe MitD is just special! He's a powerful specimen of a weak race!" but nope, Xykon even says, at one point "There's nothing scarier than you here. At least, scarier than you should be" which implies that MitD is weaker/underpowered for his race.

As for the bit about being cut to shreds: could it be the magical darkness giving him a Displacement-like effect? 50% miss chance? The bit about tickling could be the blades whooshing around him, missing him by a hairsbreadth. Though I admit that's quite a bit of a stretch.

[Starwaster]

Yeah, the Baku is a good fit for the MitD in terms of fluff, but its a good ways short in terms of sheer power. Its slightly too weak physically, but the real problems are that it doesn't have a *true* teleport ability to explain the Escape and possibly even worse its defenses are just atrocious. Normally that's fine since they rely on people not realizing they're there in the first place. But just standing there, either Miko or Belkar would have cut it to shreds.

Are all of its psionic abilities pre-determined? If not it has room for others or it can gain class levels then it could take psionic teleport & trace teleport?

[rweird]

It also gets further undermined by how Xykon and Redcloak treat the MitD as though his race was incredibly strong. We could have said "maybe MitD is just special! He's a powerful specimen of a weak race!" but nope, Xykon even says, at one point "There's nothing scarier than you here. At least, scarier than you should be" which implies that MitD is weaker/underpowered for his race.

As for the bit about being cut to shreds: could it be the magical darkness giving him a Displacement-like effect? 50% miss chance? The bit about tickling could be the blades whooshing around him, missing him by a hairsbreadth. Though I admit that's quite a bit of a stretch.

If you can't see your opponent (which they couldn't), your opponent appearing blurry won't help, though darkness does grant a 50% miss chance.

[Greylond]

IMO, all the T-port Trace and T-Port stuff takes up too much conscious decision making for what we've seen the MitD did when he sent O-Chul away. I think it was something along the lines of Limited Wish or Wish though. I think when he said, "Escape!" he was wanting O-Chul to go somewhere safe like maybe to where back were V came from. That's why it didn't work on the Hobgoblin. The Hobgoblin didn't need to "Escape" to somewhere safe, he was already there.

[Steven]

I think most people would agree that wish would be the best option for the escape. The problem with that is the lack of options anyone has found that has wish and also matches up with the other requirements.

People are exploring the teleport trace etc. because it COULD explain it and it might help us find something new. The wish would be far more elegant though.

[Belkar<3]

IMO, all the T-port Trace and T-Port stuff takes up too much conscious decision making for what we've seen the MitD did when he sent O-Chul away. I think it was something along the lines of Limited Wish or Wish though. I think when he said, "Escape!" he was wanting O-Chul to go somewhere safe like maybe to where back were V came from. That's why it didn't work on the Hobgoblin. The Hobgoblin didn't need to "Escape" to somewhere safe, he was already there.

I concur. Wish would definitely be the best fit. Because . . . would Trace Teleport work with the Cloister? Would Teleport work at all?

Edit: I know V teleported in, but that was with Soul Splice, and I don't think Greater Teleport would work with the Cloister in effect.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Trace Teleport work with the Cloister? Would Teleport work at all?

Yes, and yes.

Wish would be better fit if it was a common ability. But it isn't, so it is not.

GW

[Belkar<3]

Yes, and yes.

Wish would be better fit if it was a common ability. But it isn't, so it is not.

GW

Um . . the wiki says it blocks communication.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Um . . the wiki says it blocks communication.

Irrelevant, since neither teleport nor trace teleport are communication.

Edit: Cloister rules here. Teleportation and scrying can be cast from the inside towards the outside.

GW

[DaggerPen]

Hey, so I was googling around to see if there were ways to bypass immunity to mind-affecting effects, and...

Wish, Limited Wish, and Miracle.

How it works:
Wish, Limited Wish, and Miracle all have their own school and descriptor line. They all duplicate other spells.

By the standard inheritance rules, anything specified in the spell you're actually casting overrides the stuff that the spell text says it acts like. So Polymorph is still a Sor/Wiz 4, has a material component, is touch range, requires the subject be living, and lasts minutes/level, even though the spell it refrences (Alter Self) is Sor/Wiz 2, has no material component, is personal range, has no restriction on the subject's creature type, and lasts ten minutes/level.

So when Limited Wish inherits from Charm Monster, the school and descriptor line of Limited Wish overrides the school and descriptor line of Charm Monster... thus, that duplicated casting of Charm Monster is no longer mind-affecting. Have fun Charming constructs and undead.

Edit: Probably not helpful for you, though.
How's this: Pick up:
Dispel Ward (Spell Compendium - Sor/Wiz 1).
(Greater) Dispel Magic.
Rapid Metamagic (feat from Complete Mage)
Quicken Spell (Rapid Metamagic permits you to use it effectively)

You can now use Dispel Ward as a swift action on items likely to generate mind-affecting immunity effects (most are abjurations, and items usually don't have a very high caster level), and then your standard action to do the deed to the target. At higher levels, you'll be wanting to do this with (Greater) Dispel Magic.

You may also want to invest in metamagic reducers, or maybe Rods of Quicken Spell.

Xykon's epic and all, but would he have access to Wish, and if so, would he burn one to implant a command in the MitD? Is there any chance that this might be an explanation for how to overcome a mind-affecting effect immunity? Because it looks like there's basically no other way outside of homebrew.