MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Hey, so I was googling around to see if there were ways to bypass immunity to mind-affecting effects, and...

Xykon's epic and all, but would he have access to Wish, and if so, would he burn one to implant a command in the MitD? Is there any chance that this might be an explanation for how to overcome a mind-affecting effect immunity? Because it looks like there's basically no other way outside of homebrew.

I very seriously doubt Xykon has Wish as a spell. It is by far the most overpowered spell in the game, and would make him unstoppable to the OotS. I can believe MitD could have wish and, being MitD, never amount to much, but if Xykon has wish, Rich has painted himself into a corner.

I vaguely remember Rich making a comment on this topic somewhere, too. I don't have the time right now, but could someone check the Rich Comment's thread?

Grey Wolf

[Greylond]

I vaguely remember Rich making a comment on this topic somewhere, too. I don't have the time right now, but could someone check the Rich Comment's thread?

Grey Wolf

Here you go;

Originally Posted by Rich Burlew, in War and XPs c.368
So, just so everyone is clear: I know exactly what the Monster in the Darkness is. I have (almost) always known. Its first two or three appearances were before I had worked out much of the plot's details, so at that point, I just figured it was a mystery I would never answer. Once I started developing the real story that I was telling, around strip #100, I figured out what the monster really was and have been dropping hints ever since. (Note that nothing from before strip #100 actually contradicts the truth of what it is, either.) [...]
I will say this much: It is possible to guess.
That is, it isn't something I just made up for the story. It wouldn't be any fun for the answer to a mystery to be something I invented just for one purpose, would it? I won't finally throw back the darkness and have someone say, "Look! It was a therblewurkersaurus the entire time!" or some other made-up monster.
I realize that the line between something I made up and something someone else made up is a pretty fine one, but I trust that someone will figure it out eventually.

And;

Originally Posted by Rich Burlew, in Don't Split the Party
[O-Chul] breaks himself out of the cage, he drives off Redcloak with a lucky shot, and most importantly, he has won the trust of the monster in the darkness over the course of months. So much so that the monster digs deep and discovers powers that he didn't even know he had in order to save him.

[Kish]

Pretty sure Grey Wolf knows about those, somehow. *looks everywhere but at the first post in this thread*

I believe "the topic" would be Wish and the having-thereof by Xykon.

[Greylond]

Those quotes are the only things in the Giant Comments thread about the MitD...

[Kish]

I believe "the topic" would be Wish and the having-thereof by Xykon.

Those quotes are the only things in the Giant Comments thread about the MitD...

Now, this is a non-sequitur.

(Although, I don't think Rich said anything about Wish. I think Grey Wolf might be thinking of what he said about True Resurrection.)

[Grey_Wolf_c]

(Although, I don't think Rich said anything about Wish. I think Grey Wolf might be thinking of what he said about True Resurrection.)

Perfect. Thanks, Kish. That is exactly what I was vaguely remembering. As you say, Rich is talking about True Resurrection, not Wish, but I remember reading that and thinking that if True Resurrection is, to quote Rich, "a terrible, narrative-wrecking spell that should not exist", how much worse is Wish, that can do not just everything True Resurrection can (with two Wish castings), but also everything else that can be done with a spell?

As I said above, as long as we are talking about MitD, our dear bumbling, not-as-scary-as-he-should-be naive childish monster, wish is not a problem narratively. But positing that Xykon might have access to wish as a cheesy way to overcome mental resistance...

It's a possibility, I'll grant you. But not one I find plausible at all, not with Rich already having a problem with the much weaker True Resurrection.

Narratively, I can see Miracle making an appearance (because that still requires a known outside agency, to whit, a God), but I just can't imagine Xykon having the ability to rewrite reality with his N slots per day of 9th level spells and only ever using it to mentally command MitD.

Grey Wolf

[Olinser]

Perfect. Thanks, Kish. That is exactly what I was vaguely remembering. As you say, Rich is talking about True Resurrection, not Wish, but I remember reading that and thinking that if True Resurrection is, to quote Rich, "a terrible, narrative-wrecking spell that should not exist", how much worse is Wish, that can do not just everything True Resurrection can (with two Wish castings), but also everything else that can be done with a spell?

As I said above, as long as we are talking about MitD, our dear bumbling, not-as-scary-as-he-should-be naive childish monster, wish is not a problem narratively. But positing that Xykon might have access to wish as a cheesy way to overcome mental resistance...

It's a possibility, I'll grant you. But not one I find plausible at all, not with Rich already having a problem with the much weaker True Resurrection.

Narratively, I can see Miracle making an appearance (because that still requires a known outside agency, to whit, a God), but I just can't imagine Xykon having the ability to rewrite reality with his N slots per day of 9th level spells and only ever using it to mentally command MitD.

Grey Wolf

Well, the key argument is that Wish is, by it's very nature, limited by the intelligence of the person and how much they really think through their wishes, as well as the benevolence of the DM interpreting the Wish. I haven't played in a while, but when I did, nobody dared using a Wish, because we had a super-savvy GM that was great a playing a jackass genie for people trying to break the game.

The Oracle does a great job of demonstrating how many jackass ways you can interpret seemingly simple questions. The same can be done for wishes. And Roy demonstrates that even when you write it out to try and force a specific outcome, you can't be perfect.

With the MiTD case, I still question whether it was a Wish, though, specifically because it took V along for the ride - and the MiTD had no strong reason to want V to escape, he doesn't even know who he is.

[cd4]

Actually I can prove that Xykon doesn't have wish at all. His spell list as given by O-Chul and cast elsewhere in the comic shows his only three spells known as Energy Drain, Meteor Swarm and Soul Bind. Sorcerors only get three 9th level spells known.

[Kish]

...unless they take the epic feat Spell Knowledge.

Note: Xykon would certainly have used Wish in a conspicuous way by now if he had it. We just can't say we know his total spell list for certain, for any level.

[Stray]

In this post Giant says that Redcloak destroyed Tsukiko's body to limit Xykon's ability to question or raise her. Wish spell description specifies that it can recreate destroyed body, so the whole thing would be a waste of time. If Xykon could cast Wish, Redcloak would be first one to know it.

[Emanick]

In this post Giant says that Redcloak destroyed Tsukiko's body to limit Xykon's ability to question or raise her. Wish spell description specifies that it can recreate destroyed body, so the whole thing would be a waste of time. If Xykon could cast Wish, Redcloak would be first one to know it.

Well, in fairness, the spell DOES have a large XP cost, so if Xykon ever used it, he would most likely use it rarely and only in very important circumstances - circumstances in which Redcloak might not be there to witness his casting. And Xykon also wouldn't have gained the ability to cast it until epic levels, so he might have acquired it fairly recently. Redcloak might not even know that Xykon has Wish.

But I agree with the general consensus that Xykon probably can't cast the spell. I very much doubt that the lich sorcerer we saw trouncing Darth V and pulling out 12th level spell slots has many more unrevealed powers to pull out of his tailbone. We'll probably see one or two more high/epic-level tricks from him to keep things interesting, but I really can't see him being much more insanely powered up than he's already been revealed to be.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Well, in fairness, the spell DOES have a large XP cost, so if Xykon ever used it, he would most likely use it rarely and only in very important circumstances -

I could agree in principle to this analysis*, but please, remember the thread we are in. The question we are concerned about is not really "Does Xykon have Wish?", it is "Did Xykon use Wish to mentally dominate MitD, overriding any immunity to mental domination MitD might have?"

Are we all in agreement that the second question is "no"? From the point of view of thread consensus? Please do post if you disagree, and think it is plausible that Xykon used Wish to perform the SoD mental domination (give me some reasons why, in that case). Otherwise, from what I can gather of the comments everyone has made, I think we all agree that is well too far-fetched.

Which is not to say that the broader question of Xykon having Wish could not be discussed in, say, the Geekery thread. I just don't want us derailing this thread to discuss Xykon.

Grey Wolf

Edit:
*I know Emanick did eventually conclude "no", btw, in the very post I am quoting. I'm just saying that that particular argument - that Wish is too important and expensive to cast for Xykon to have used it - is reasonable, in a "but what if..." kind of way that it can stand on its own.

[Olinser]

I could agree in principle to this analysis*, but please, remember the thread we are in. The question we are concerned about is not really "Does Xykon have Wish?", it is "Did Xykon use Wish to mentally dominate MitD, overriding any immunity to mental domination MitD might have?"

Are we all in agreement that the second question is "no"? From the point of view of thread consensus? Please do post if you disagree, and think it is plausible that Xykon used Wish to perform the SoD mental domination (give me some reasons why, in that case). Otherwise, from what I can gather of the comments everyone has made, I think we all agree that is well too far-fetched.

Which is not to say that the broader question of Xykon having Wish could not be discussed in, say, the Geekery thread. I just don't want us derailing this thread to discuss Xykon.

Grey Wolf

Edit:
*I know Emanick did eventually conclude "no", btw, in the very post I am quoting. I'm just saying that that particular argument - that Wish is too important and expensive to cast for Xykon to have used it - is reasonable, in a "but what if..." kind of way that it can stand on its own.

Purely from a meta standpoint, I can't imagine that Xykon would use a heavy hitter spell like Wish with no major animation or statement in the comic.

If he was going to use a Wish at any point in the comic, he probably would have whipped it out against Soon. I can't imagine him blowing 5000 XP just for something like putting a command on a questionable minion that may or may not ever actually come into effect.

Also, I can't imagine that Xykon would risk a wish with an open-ended command like 'if Redcloak every betrays me, do X'

Betrayal is an AWFULLY open-ended word to be using in a Wish.

[DaggerPen]

Okay, so is there literally any other way to overcome immunity to mind-affecting effects, then? Because if we have to resort to un-lampshaded homebrew to explain it, I'd like to once more put forth the idea that the mind-controlled MitD scene be made one of the Big Scenes. Xykon being able to do something that to the MitD there is no viable in-game mechanic for outside of homebrew is IMO even more of a stretch than giving the MitD an ugly appearance/teleportation abilities/great strength that his base creature does not possess. At least those have some in-game explanations versus homebrew.

[Kish]

Okay, so is there literally any other way to overcome immunity to mind-affecting effects, then? Because if we have to resort to un-lampshaded homebrew to explain it, I'd like to once more put forth the idea that the mind-controlled MitD scene be made one of the Big Scenes. Xykon being able to do something that to the MitD there is no viable in-game mechanic for outside of homebrew is IMO even more of a stretch than giving the MitD an ugly appearance/teleportation abilities/great strength that his base creature does not possess. At least those have some in-game explanations versus homebrew.

But Rich casually handwaves spells like that all the time.

Tsukiko's Amazing Wight-Making Spell, anyone?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I'd like to once more put forth the idea that the mind-controlled MitD scene be made one of the Big Scenes.

I'm not opposed to this change, but I'm not sure I am all that comfortable with voting on a change that has been rejected before. I mean, yes, obviously a topic should be revisited in case the consensus has changed, but the rules do not contemplate how often the same issue can be voted upon. This is my fault, for not considering the possibility when I wrote the rules, but still needs to be addressed.

Once per thread sounds good to everyone? Once a thread has voted down a change, you have to wait until the new thread to bring it up again?

But Rich casually handwaves spells like that all the time.

Tsukiko's Amazing Wight-Making Spell, anyone?

I am very uncomfortable with assuming that anything that is hard to explain about MitD, which after all Rich says "can be figured out", be hand-waved with "Rich is bending the rules". I expect Rich to be paying far more attention to the spells and other interactions when MitD is involved, precisely because he said it is a Guessing Game and there are Clues(tm). This is no different from MitD having templates or having boosted himself prior to the "hit the lightest" game. The rules allow it, just like the rules allow for custom spells, but at some point, to preserve the ability of this thread to separate fact from speculation, you have to draw the line, and I feel that the most rational place to draw the line is "Rich will lampshade any rule bending having to do with the MitD (such as the surprise at his talking)".

Could Xykon have used Xykon's god's mind domination spell? Yes. But then, MitD might have used MitD's O-Chul and V Escape spell-like ability. Down that path lies bedlam.

Grey Wolf

[DaggerPen]

I'm not opposed to this change, but I'm not sure I am all that comfortable with voting on a change that has been rejected before. I mean, yes, obviously a topic should be revisited in case the consensus has changed, but the rules do not contemplate how often the same issue can be voted upon. This is my fault, for not considering the possibility when I wrote the rules, but still needs to be addressed.

Once per thread sounds good to everyone? Once a thread has voted down a change, you have to wait until the new thread to bring it up again?

I'm on board with that.

I am very uncomfortable with assuming that anything that is hard to explain about MitD, which after all Rich says "can be figured out", be hand-waved with "Rich is bending the rules". I expect Rich to be paying far more attention to the spells and other interactions when MitD is involved, precisely because he said it is a Guessing Game and there are Clues(tm). This is no different from MitD having templates or having boosted himself prior to the "hit the lightest" game. The rules allow it, just like the rules allow for custom spells, but at some point, to preserve the ability of this thread to separate fact from speculation, you have to draw the line, and I feel that the most rational place to draw the line is "Rich will lampshade any rule bending having to do with the MitD (such as the surprise at his talking)".

Could Xykon have used Xykon's god's mind domination spell? Yes. But then, MitD might have used MitD's O-Chul and V Escape spell-like ability. Down that path lies bedlam.

Grey Wolf

Agreed. Also, the "Tsukiko's Amazing Wight-making Spell" was a minor oversight, but I'd imagine it'd take a lot more doing to have Xykon casually overcome immunity to mind-affecting effects, which reasonable googling seems to indicate cannot be overcome by basically anything outside of homebrew or Wish. The MitD mind-control scene was clearly a major scene, and there's no way that that Chekhov's Gun isn't going to go off at some point. I'd have expected Rich to lampshade it *somehow* if he was just going to bend the immunity for the sake of that plot point - have Xykon try a regular mind-control spell, fail and say "Hrm, better break out Xykon's old Irresistable Mind-Control Spell" or whatever.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

The MitD mind-control scene was clearly a major scene, and there's no way that that Chekhov's Gun isn't going to go off at some point.

Actually... playing devil's advocate, I would have to say that I don't think it is a chekhov's gun at all. Rich has always been very clear that reading the published comics will not be necessary to follow the story. MitD suddenly going swirly-eyed and siding with Xykon when RC (inevitably) makes his betrayal clear would be an ass-pull from the perspective of the online-only readers, who might expect MitD to continue to be a neutral party of ineffectiveness.

If I were to make a prediction, it is that Rich will bring it up in the online comic sooner rather than later, possibly as a parallel to RC's control of Tsukiko's undead when he confronted her. But in the meantime, I like to think it is a Clue(tm) rather than something more important to the story.

Grey Wolf

[DaggerPen]

Actually... playing devil's advocate, I would have to say that I don't think it is a chekhov's gun at all. Rich has always been very clear that reading the published comics will not be necessary to follow the story. MitD suddenly going swirly-eyed and siding with Xykon when RC (inevitably) makes his betrayal clear would be an ass-pull from the perspective of the online-only readers, who might expect MitD to continue to be a neutral party of ineffectiveness.

If I were to make a prediction, it is that Rich will bring it up in the online comic sooner rather than later, possibly as a parallel to RC's control of Tsukiko's undead when he confronted her. But in the meantime, I like to think it is a Clue(tm) rather than something more important to the story.

Grey Wolf

Oh, agreed with that, and I'm sure it'll come up in the story at some point, but unless it comes up in a way that lampshades MitD's immunity to mind-affecting effects, I say that we can still assume he's vulnerable to mind-affecting effects. After all, SOD was full of clues about the MitD, so if he was going to lampshade that invulnerability, I would expect him to do that there..

[AgentPaper]

Sorry if this has been brought up before, but I had an idea that may lead to something, relating to the scene where Xykon gives seemingly mind controls the MitD in start of darkness. Everyone seems to be assuming that Xykon is using some sort of mind control, and thus the MitD must be vulnerable to mind magic. What if, however, he's using something else? The main example I thought of was Control Undead, which ignores the undead subtype's immunity to mind-affecting spells.

Obviously Control Undead itself has a few problems that make it unlikely, namely it's short duration, the fact that intelligent undead can remember it after it's used, the unlikeliness of MitD being undead (eats, sleeps, etc), etc.

Basically, are there any other mind-control like spells or abilities out there that sneak around the restrictions in this way?

Another idea is that the mind control wasn't actually mind-control at all, but simply Xykon using magical means to boost his charisma so much that he is able to order MitD to accept his orders. (though this wouldn't explain the swirly eyes, since they don't show up when Haley does this later on)

[Kish]

Also, the "Tsukiko's Amazing Wight-making Spell" was a minor oversight, but I'd imagine it'd take a lot more doing to have Xykon casually overcome immunity to mind-affecting effects, which reasonable googling seems to indicate cannot be overcome by basically anything outside of homebrew or Wish.

Overcoming immunity to mind-affecting.

[Steven]

I lack the excellent memory of the good Mr. Wolf but I am pretty sure it's come up and nothing useful came from it. I think people hunted for spells that would allow the MitD to be a construct and be controlled and failed to find anything that would have a long enough duration.

Not to say there is anything wrong with hunting for such a spell as I think there are some very good constructs that would fit quite well. *cough* Zodar *cough*

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Overcoming immunity to mind-affecting.

Lets assume for the purposes of this discussion that creature types that can't be mind controlled in the usual way (undead, constructs and plants, IIRC) are disqualified from consideration due to not eating, sleeping, etc unless otherwise indicated in the proposal itself.

Any proposals that fall into those categories must address that issue first and then can, yes, claim that it fits the mind control scene by virtue of being a strange category (undead is specially obvious since Xykon specialises in controlling the undead). This conditional is already part of the FBS list. Thus, on the possibility of adding "not immune to mind control" to the FBS definition, the special circumstance would already be covered anyway.

Grey Wolf

[Steven]

Ah, see? I knew there was something that messed with the idea.

[AgentPaper]

Speaking of trawling through looking for candidates, perhaps we could keep track of what has been looked through, what hasn't, and links to any sites that might have unchecked monsters? I suspect that a lot of effort is being wasted looking through the 3.5 monster manuals when I'm sure they've all been trawled through hundreds of times by various fans.

[Shadowknight12]

Speaking of trawling through looking for candidates, perhaps we could keep track of what has been looked through, what hasn't, and links to any sites that might have unchecked monsters? I suspect that a lot of effort is being wasted looking through the 3.5 monster manuals when I'm sure they've all been trawled through hundreds of times by various fans.

If I may make a suggestion, I would recommend looking through Monster Manuals of Basic D&D and AD&D, rather than anything 3e. Call it intuition, but I get the feeling that the reason we're having such trouble finding a creature that fits is because it's probably a very old creature that hasn't been updated (like the flumphs).

Also, it might explain why it could be a creature that, under 3e rules, would be immune to mind-affecting effects, but it could still be charmed/suggestionated/dominated/geased by Xykon. Remember what Hylgia said about her Sanctuary spell? If it's too old to have a Will save, it automatically fails it.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Speaking of trawling through looking for candidates, perhaps we could keep track of what has been looked through, what hasn't, and links to any sites that might have unchecked monsters? I suspect that a lot of effort is being wasted looking through the 3.5 monster manuals when I'm sure they've all been trawled through hundreds of times by various fans.

Experience in this thread tells me that jut because someone has trawled through a book it doesn't mean that the book is done for.

That said, some kind soul (Savannah, collector of monster manuals?) took the first post suggestions and added the book the belong to, so we do keep a record of the books checked, after a fashion.

If I may make a suggestion, I would recommend looking through Monster Manuals of Basic D&D and AD&D, rather than anything 3e. Call it intuition, but I get the feeling that the reason we're having such trouble finding a creature that fits is because it's probably a very old creature that hasn't been updated (like the flumphs).

If you believe this to be likely, you are quite free to do the search yourself. Two points to take into account: while this has been tried several times before, no-one has produced a reasonable explanation why MitD wouldn't have been trapped in Dorukan's Dungeon with the rest of the non-upgraded monsters.

Second, what few 2nd ed creatures have been proposed tend to have relatively low strength. I think this is because the system was designed to have a bunch of "18" STR bonuses, and only when you reached 18/100, could you progress to 19 (I could be wrong on the reasons, so suffice to say that in practice, strength has been unimpressive). However, as per Hilga's comment, non-updated monsters have to make do with what literal scores they used to have (e.g. no will save), so a 24 STR monster that used to be a force to be reckoned with in 2nd ed is weaker than Roy now.

However, to answer your point, I would argue that if the old edition version was literally immune to mind control, it would still be even if it didn't get updated, since the wording is close enough. After all, immunity doesn't mean you automatically pass the will check, it means you don't need to roll it in the first place.

Grey Wolf

[Shadowknight12]

If you believe this to be likely, you are quite free to do the search yourself. Two points to take into account: while this has been tried several times before, no-one has produced a reasonable explanation why MitD wouldn't have been trapped in Dorukan's Dungeon with the rest of the non-upgraded monsters.

Second, what few 2nd ed creatures have been proposed tend to have relatively low strength. I think this is because the system was designed to have a bunch of "18" STR bonuses, and only when you reached 18/100, could you progress to 19 (I could be wrong on the reasons, so suffice to say that in practice, strength has been unimpressive). However, as per Hilga's comment, non-updated monsters have to make do with what literal scores they used to have (e.g. no will save), so a 24 STR monster that used to be a force to be reckoned with in 2nd ed is weaker than Roy now.

However, to answer your point, I would argue that if the old edition version was literally immune to mind control, it would still be even if it didn't get updated, since the wording is close enough. After all, immunity doesn't mean you automatically pass the will check, it means you don't need to roll it in the first place.

Grey Wolf

Oh, yes, I have been doing so as well, as time permits. I was just suggesting that to others because there are old books that are simply out of my reach, but that longtime fans of the hobby might look into.

As for Dorukan's Dungeon, that's a good point, but it's still before the #100 strip. And if the Giant had said "ignore the bit that implies that all the old monsters are in Dorukan's dungeon when it comes to the MitD" he would've tipped us off significantly. It's not a good reason, mind you, but it seems to me that presuming that all of the old monsters in the entire world of the OotS were in Dorukan's Dungeon is just as much of a stretch.

Strength: what if you find a creature who has an ability that specifically lets it punch people over great distances, or through walls? Look at a giant's Hurl Boulder ability, that's a carryover from a highly specific ability from back in the day. It's possible that there are creatures with similar abilities that never got updated.

Of course, if the old edition version was literally immune to mind control, that's obviously not going to fly. What I meant was that, back in the day, it could have belonged to a creature type that is currently immune to mind-affecting effects, but back then wasn't.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

And if the Giant had said "ignore the bit that implies that all the old monsters are in Dorukan's dungeon when it comes to the MitD" he would've tipped us off significantly. It's not a good reason, mind you, but it seems to me that presuming that all of the old monsters in the entire world of the OotS were in Dorukan's Dungeon is just as much of a stretch.

Rich did say that nothing before #100 contradicted MitD, so caveat emptor and all that jazz. That's the evidence we have, so that will be a con. Which is not to say it couldn't make the FBS, of course. Just preemptively warning.

Strength: what if you find a creature who has an ability that specifically lets it punch people over great distances, or through walls?

I think you misunderstand me. My warnings were just that:warnings. Points to keep in mind. Details you need to watch for. [Insert here another synonym of the previous three sentences]. Like with every other general point I make, exceptions can and will be accepted, tied to the appropriate proposal.

A good proposal with a plausible explanation goes a long way to counter general points. In some cases, it might not be quite good enough to convince me, but it might be good enough to get me to list it. The zodar's "it'd be revolting if it was insectoid looking" explanation leaps to mind.

What I meant was that, back in the day, it could have belonged to a creature type that is currently immune to mind-affecting effects, but back then wasn't.

Ah, but if it has a current version, that's the one that counts. Upgrading is not optional, it is forced upon you (as per the very first comic).The only way to choose versions is if there is a fan-made one and an official one, and it is plausible that Rich would know the unofficial (again, zodar).

Grey Wolf

[Shadowknight12]

Rich did say that nothing before #100 contradicted MitD, so caveat emptor and all that jazz. That's the evidence we have, so that will be a con. Which is not to say it couldn't make the FBS, of course. Just preemptively warning.

Ah, good point. And if it was captured before Dorukan finished his amulet (or activated it)? V says "I haven't seen these monsters in years" but doesn't specify how many. The MitD was captured 29 years before the comic began, so it's possible that Dorukan activated the talisman at some point after that.

I think you misunderstand me. My warnings were just that:warnings. Points to keep in mind. Details you need to watch for. [Insert here another synonym of the previous three sentences]. Like with every other general point I make, exceptions can and will be accepted, tied to the appropriate proposal.

A good proposal with a plausible explanation goes a long way to counter general points. In some cases, it might not be quite good enough to convince me, but it might be good enough to get me to list it. The zodar's "it'd be revolting if it was insectoid looking" explanation leaps to mind.

All right, I'll keep looking, then.

Ah, but if it has a current version, that's the one that counts. Upgrading is not optional, it is forced upon you (as per the very first comic).The only way to choose versions is if there is a fan-made one and an official one, and it is plausible that Rich would know the unofficial (again, zodar).

Grey Wolf

Hmmmm, I see what you mean. But I was thinking more along the lines of "never got an upgrade at all". If I see a strong, intelligent plant creature that more or less fits the bill, I could propose it on the grounds that, back then, it could be mind-controlled (even though an upgrade to 3e and 3.5e would make it immune to mind-affecting effects). And perhaps back then, certain plant creatures ate, slept and breathed (I wouldn't know, though, older editions are not my forte).