MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

[DaggerPen]

I think there's value to approaching things from a literary standpoint, but the specific theory of MitD being V isn't really tenable.

One quick question: Has Rich confirmed or even implied that MitD is a statted DnD monster? I see that "Schlock Mercenary's Carbosilicate Amorph" is on the FBS list, though I suspect mostly as a joke, but what about monsters from other tabletop systems, or even other literature or mythological creatures? I can't think of any examples off the top of my head, but perhaps it might be useful to, say, trawl through all the ancient greek titans to see if any have powers matching MitD?

I bring this up because we've never actually seen MitD cast any DnD spells, or use any DnD equipment, or even reference any DnD rules, such as DR, strength, attack rolls, etc. He just kinda does what he does.

It's never been confirmed, but little mythology so far matches up to MitD, and the ones that might have a chance have already been statted in D&D, which is assumed to take precedence by merit of this being a D&D world. For example, not many myths involve teleportation, and most Greek mythology characters have already been statted up in D&D somewhere. As for other systems, it's been briefly explored, but anything not copyright Rich that is also not D&D material is verboten if the owner is not known to be friends with Rich.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Colanderman, it's not a bad proposal. Just a few nitpicks:

[*] DR 10/lawful (only Miko could "tickle" him)

Errr... if the DR is nulled by being lawful, Miko's attacks would ignore it (she might have been an ass, but she was legal good until her fall).

[*] constant True Seeing (can't see the gates)

Please walk me through your reasoning here, I'm not sure how those two are connected.

[*] Str 32 (I think that's enough for the tower scene?)

Barely, but yes.

[*] Int 5 / Wis 20 (might explain the disconnect we see in his apparent intellect)

Wrong way around, i'm afraid. The ability to learn quickly is a clear sign of intelligence. Moral uncertainty (i.e. not knowing what friends should act like) is a sign of low wisdom.

On what Rich has said: it's all a matter of interpretation.

Taken on that prism, everything is a matter of interpretation. You can interpret the tower scene to be a metaphor on tortured souls looking to break free of the dread of daily routine, which means that MitD is a manic pixie girl. Not particularly useful when it comes to figuring out what MitD is, though.

In short, your theory is "take Rich's words to mean exactly the opposite of their literal meaning, thus (anything I want)". You might as well conclude that it is a 1 year old regular human baby with no abilities, because hey, wouldn't that be unexpected, and recognisable.

His language specifically states that the MitD is not a completely random creature with made-up stats.

No, that is not what it says. Steven gave you the relevant quote. It is also in the OP. There is no mention of randomness or stats,just that it wasn't made up for this story. You cannot read that, and conclude "V timewarped by the Snarl"

This is, IMO, far more satisfying than a (insert extremely obscure critter here) that is almost as bad as making something up.

Not to me. Your entire theory, it seems, is based on your feelings. Your feelings cannot be the basis of a rational discussion. "Sure, the (x) fits all the evidence, but it makes NovaeDeArx quesy, so sorry, can't consider it".

If nobody but 3-4 people recognize what the heck the MitD is even once it's revealed, what's the payoff?

Why must there be a payout? MitD is big, strong, hungry, powerful. You know, just like Xykon, who a lot of readers also don't recognise ("lich" is not a well-known concept outside D&D). Also, note that Rich says "someone will figure it out" not "everyone will figure it out".

Also, I'm really not trying to be all "I'm right and you're wrong, nyah nyah", GW...

That wasn't my point. My point was and is that you can't lead with "since you haven't figured it out, this is the solution", from a strictly logical standpoint. You don't know if the first half is true or false, and the second can't follow in either case.

One quick question: Has Rich confirmed or even implied that MitD is a statted DnD monster?

Nope, not even a tiny little hint. Note that it's not Schlock, but merely one of his species. Kinda a joke, I suppose, but it is a serious proposal. If Schlock was from a 18th century novel and not from a current webcomic, it would be a perfect fit for MitD. But it's not, thus its only con.

Beyond that, what DaggerPen said.

Grey Wolf

[Crusher]

That third pathfinder book has some interesting ones. If the Akvan Div wasn't 40' tall it might actually be a contender (though I suspect it was also created post-strip 100).

Well, what the heck, I may as well submit it:

Akvan Div Prince (not sure what specific kind though probably not Fire) http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/bestiary3/div.html

The Divs are descendents of genies that were corrupted and then banished to Abaddon (which a plane of Hell, maybe?). The most powerful of them are the Akvan Divs. All Divs hate mortals, but Akvan Divs are special in that while they hate mortals, they also hunt genies and the best Akvan Div genies slayers are referred to as "Princes" and are some how transformed, giving them additional powers. Akvan Div Princes are CR22-24.

Circus Scene: The description doesn't say much about how they actually look, other than that they wear really ornate armor and have rocky protrusions sticking out of them. On the one hand that doesn't sound like much. On the other hand, recall that a Prince would thus be a corrupted, fiendish genie with rocky protrusions which has then been transformed in some fashion. It could look like just about anything, and might well be pretty horrible looking, while wearing its ornate armor.

Tower Scene: STR 35 (potentially 39 as a Prince), DR15/Cold Iron and Good

Escape: Wish 3/day as an Akvan Prince

Pros: Swallow Whole as a special attack, probably has a dad or at a minimum could consider Ahriman his dad

Cons: 40' tall, unclear when it was created, speaks common, Aura of Hopelessness. MitD is an unlikely candidate to be an advanced version of anything, would have to assume the Transformation process of becoming a Prince did something bad to his brain.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

That third pathfinder book has some interesting ones. If the Akvan Div wasn't 40' tall it might actually be a contender (though I suspect it was also created post-strip 100).

Excellent analysis, as usual, Crusher (you are stealing my shtick!). Is there a way to find the publication date? It sounds like a "not good enough explanation for circus scene" to me (from the "makes people vomit" issue, not as much from the "unrecognisable" one), but it is hard to say without a picture. If we know it is post-100, that will be a far more clear-cut reason to not include it in FBS. The issue here is that my google search for images are finding what I presume are the original Arabian codex illustrations of the creature, and they are neither ugly nor particularly strange, but that is usually the case before D&D gets their paws on the creature, after which they need to differentiate them.

Grey Wolf

[DaggerPen]

Tower Scene: STR 35 (potentially 39 as a Prince), DR15/Cold Iron and Good

Aren't Miko's weapons good aligned? How come her attacks only tickled?

As for creation date, I can't seem to find anything, either. I'll have to dig out the non-edited version of the handy dandy near-complete D&D monster list and see if it's on there anywhere with a publication date, I suppose, unless someone else wants to save me the trouble?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Aren't Miko's weapons good aligned? How come her attacks only tickled?

As I understand it, it must be both good and cold iron (as oposed to the occasional e.g. "epic or good" formulation). Miko's boss had his weapons lined with silver (maybe also cold iron), but we don't have anything that indicates that Miko did likewise, so for the purposes of this proposal, I'm willing to give it a pass.

GW

[DaggerPen]

As I understand it, it must be both good and cold iron (as oposed to the occasional e.g. "epic or good" formulation). Miko's boss had his weapons lined with silver (maybe also cold iron), but we don't have anything that indicates that Miko did likewise, so for the purposes of this proposal, I'm willing to give it a pass.

GW

That's... an oddly specific DR type, especially since a lot of fiends, IIRC, have a history of a DR against cold iron or good-aligned weapons. I'm inclined to assume that that's a semantic error, but unfortunately, without being able to find the creature's write-up anywhere else...

[colanderman]

Errr... if the DR is nulled by being lawful, Miko's attacks would ignore it (she might have been an ass, but she was legal good until her fall).

Hence why I said only Miko could tickle him.

Please walk me through your reasoning here, I'm not sure how those two are connected.

If the gates were in any way illusory or connections to the Ethereal plane, MitD would likely not notice them. True Seeing is very broad, and the gates are something Rich made up, so it's entirely plausible there's an interaction.

Wrong way around, i'm afraid. The ability to learn quickly is a clear sign of intelligence. Moral uncertainty (i.e. not knowing what friends should act like) is a sign of low wisdom.

Mm, agreed. I had toyed with the idea that the Go game could be explained by the Qlippoths' Telepathy ability, but even if that makes any sense, the idea that a creature with Wis 20 would be so morally uncertain makes less sense.

That third pathfinder book has some interesting ones. If the Akvan Div wasn't 40' tall it might actually be a contender (though I suspect it was also created post-strip 100).

I don't have Bestiary 3 but I have the Adventure Path the Divs are from. Strangely the Akvan isn't listed therein (must be a later addition), but that AP dates from 2009, so probably too late.

The description doesn't say much about how they actually look, other than that they wear really ornate armor and have rocky protrusions sticking out of them.

The other Divs (again not sure about the Akvan) look scary (moreso than other DnD-esque creatures) but none are particularly gruesome. (Except for that one floating head with dangling entrails… but that Div is CR 2.)

I think this shows though that Pathfinder source material is currently an unexplored realm w/t/d MitD!

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Hence why I said only Miko could tickle him.

Oh, sorry. My fault. Somehow, I read that as "Miko could only tickle him". But I get that you mean that Miko damaged MitD more than Belkar could. Fair enough, I suppose, but doesn't explain why Miko couldn't damage him much.

If the gates were in any way illusory or connections to the Ethereal plane, MitD would likely not notice them. True Seeing is very broad, and the gates are something Rich made up, so it's entirely plausible there's an interaction.

Fair enough. I think it is slightly far-fetched, but (now) I understand the logic you are going for. Not sure we have evidence that the gates are built with illusion magic, although since the illusionist guy was involved, I'm sure some parts of it are (sorry, mind is drawing a blank on character names this morning).

That said, any argument about this should consider that the gate MitD couldn't see had a completely normal (i.e. non-magical) wooden gate in front of it, that the MitD also failed to acknowledge.

Still, I asked for the explanation, and I got it. Thanks! As I said, it was mostly nit-picks.

Grey Wolf

[Ghosty]

...I not that you have conveniently left out 80% of all clues, specially the parts with his liking of food and his immense physical strength....

...Sorry, but no. Rich was very clear: MitD is an invented monster that he didn't create. That MitD is invented was fairly clear since the tower scene, since few real-life creatures can punch horses through walls....

OTOH, we have this scene from much later in the strip. Of course, it could just be Rule of Funny (and it certainly was that.)

Did anybody calculate the strength required for Mr. Scruffy's kick to do that to the dog, compare that to any likely augmentation a Belt of Giant Strength would do to an Animal Companion, and see what that does to the required HPs for the wall? All I'm saying is that perhaps #803 is evidence that walls in OOTS are weaker than was initially calculated by Nerdanel, and therefore the MiTD might be weaker than we thought.

I admire NovaeDeArx's outside-the-box thinking, but doubt the Giant will go there narratively. For one, it reminds me too much of

Spoiler

Show

the ending of Stephen King's Dark Tower series

and the lengthy criticism it spawned. For another, as already noted, how/why would RC recognize him? What sort of overall morphology would get those reactions from both the SBGH and the Circus patrons, that the patrons probably wouldn't either recognize nor be filled with blind panic upon seeing?

I do agree with him though that the reveal has to have some sort of payoff, and that the MiTD can't be an obscure monster than maybe 10 people in these forums would get. It's one of the reasons I at first liked the idea of a juvenile Pit Fiend. I mean, it's on the cover of the old DM's Guide for cryin' out loud. A polymorphed-to-Human Dragon would work too---even I think with the Giant's proposed changes to Polymorph---though I can't see the Circus goers reacting that way to it. As you all have already stated, O'Chul calls him "a good man."

FWIW, I went through a copy of Deities and Demigods and Fiend Folio last weekend, and came up empty. (This edition didn't have the Cthulhu or Melnibonean mythos, though) Even though they were obviously not brought up to 3.5 stats, few of the creatures in there looked like they could fit. The ones that could, were generally one-offs; e.g: Cerberus, the Fenris Wolf, etc... i.e., didn't have kids.

Doubt the Giant has permission to use it but would the Nameless One from Planescape Torment fit? The amnesia certainly would apply.

[DaggerPen]

OTOH, we have this scene from much later in the strip. Of course, it could just be Rule of Funny (and it certainly was that.)

Did anybody calculate the strength required for Mr. Scruffy's kick to do that to the dog, compare that to any likely augmentation a Belt of Giant Strength would do to an Animal Companion, and see what that does to the required HPs for the wall? All I'm saying is that perhaps #803 is evidence that walls in OOTS are weaker than was initially calculated by Nerdanel, and therefore the MiTD might be weaker than we thought.

Actually, the hole in the wall was already there. Thog had made it previously, and he has a feat that allows him to smash people into walls in such a way that damages both the walls and the people, hence how Roy defeated him in the end by tricking him into smashing him against key columns.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

OTOH, we have this scene from much later in the strip. Of course, it could just be Rule of Funny (and it certainly was that.)

More importantly, the wall was already broken. The cat at +6 STR only hit the wolf some distance - there was no "through a wall" involved.

For another, as already noted, how/why would RC recognize him? What sort of overall morphology would get those reactions from both the SBGH and the Circus patrons, that the patrons probably wouldn't either recognize nor be filled with blind panic upon seeing?

Also: just how many timewarped Vs are there running around that the SBGH can talk about "one of those"?

I do agree with him though that the reveal has to have some sort of payoff, and that the MiTD can't be an obscure monster than maybe 10 people in these forums would get.

Yes, many people have said as much over the years. Since I don't get that urge, I can't claim to understand it, but lets quantify. How many people (percentage wise) would need to "get it" for you to consider it a correct payoff? Because then you follow up with a... thing? from Planscape Torment, which rules me out right there.

Look: bottom line is that "recognisability" (my spell checker is crying in a corner) is in the eye of the beholder (pun unintended). Just because you think that a polymorphed dragon would be a good payoff, that doesn't mean everyone would feel the same way. To me, that is trite and overused (wasn't a character in the Dragonlance novels one of those?). A cool monster I've never seen elsewhere, though? That would be a nice payoff to me. Admittedly, my chances of getting that after years in this thread are slight, but I'll take "a monster listed in the OP" as a successful second best payoff any day.
Edit: Thinking about it, my pay-off would be "a monster, no matter how obscure, that fits all clues".

We clearly disagree on what payoff would look like. So, now what? How that does get us any closer to figuring out MitD? If we go by your process, I need to get a panel of readers, and a different one as control, just to check every creature for "pay-off". That is why I don't like the approach - it is either a lot of work, or subjective. And even if I could get the numbers, in the end, it comes down to a "what some readers would want MitD to be" approach, rather than "what the clues say MitD might be" approach, and given a choice between the two, I will always pick the second one.

Grey Wolf

[Crusher]

Thanks, GW. Slowly getting more practiced at these over time.

Aren't Miko's weapons good aligned? How come her attacks only tickled?

As for creation date, I can't seem to find anything, either. I'll have to dig out the non-edited version of the handy dandy near-complete D&D monster list and see if it's on there anywhere with a publication date, I suppose, unless someone else wants to save me the trouble?

Having sorted through quite a few monsters I'd note that Cold Iron *and* Good isn't really particularly uncommon as far as DR types go, and its convenient in that it can arguably stop Miko. Lately I've seen some promising candidates be thwarted by the rather less common DRX/Lawful which is annoying because it wouldn't stop her.

[Olinser]

Thanks, GW. Slowly getting more practiced at these over time.



Having sorted through quite a few monsters I'd note that Cold Iron *and* Good isn't really particularly uncommon as far as DR types go, and its convenient in that it can arguably stop Miko. Lately I've seen some promising candidates be thwarted by the rather less common DRX/Lawful which is annoying because it wouldn't stop her.

I disagree - it shouldn't thwart anything at all. So far Miko is the only Lawful OR Good character to actully attack the MiTD.

He didn't even notice Belkar was attacking him. Miko 'tickled' him.

It is possible that he just has such a ridiculous CON modifier, and so many HP, that if he lost 10-20 HP to Miko's attacks (figuring that she probably missed a few times due to the darkness and his presumably high natural AC), but he has 400-600 total, that would qualify as a 'tickle.'

[Grey_Wolf_c]

It is possible that he just has such a ridiculous CON modifier, and so many HP, that if he lost 10-20 HP to Miko's attacks (figuring that she probably missed a few times due to the darkness and his presumably high natural AC), but he has 400-600 total, that would qualify as a 'tickle.'

Good point.

GW

[Leriel]

So the MitD gets annoyed from cutting its tongue but it considers katana strikes as tickle?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

So the MitD gets annoyed from cutting its tongue but it considers katana strikes as tickle?

Even a shallow cut in the tongue hurts like hell, while the same shallow cut on hide is like a scratch (think kitten mock-attacking your arm). The other major difference is that the katana cuts were propelled by Miko, Strength bonus likely small. The tongue cut was propelled by MitD's strength bonus, which is quite literally off the charts. So it is possible that MitD's self-inflicted cut went through his DR (if he has, say, 15/epic), and that it gets such a massive bonus that even with a mere 1d4 damage roll, it still significantly outclasses Miko's attacks.

Grey Wolf

[Leriel]

Even a shallow cut in the tongue hurts like hell, while the same shallow cut on hide is like a scratch. The other major difference is that the katana cuts were propelled by Miko, Strength bonus likely small. The tongue cut was propelled by MitD's strength bonus, which is quite literally off the charts. So it is possible that MitD's self-inflicted cut went through his DR (if he has, say, 15/epic), and that it gets such a massive bonus that even with a mere 1d4 damage roll, it still significantly outclasses Miko's attacks.

Grey Wolf

Good point!

[DaggerPen]

Thanks, GW. Slowly getting more practiced at these over time.



Having sorted through quite a few monsters I'd note that Cold Iron *and* Good isn't really particularly uncommon as far as DR types go, and its convenient in that it can arguably stop Miko. Lately I've seen some promising candidates be thwarted by the rather less common DRX/Lawful which is annoying because it wouldn't stop her.

Oh? Okay, then it's entirely feasible that the DR is actually good AND cold iron. Objection withdrawn.

Even a shallow cut in the tongue hurts like hell, while the same shallow cut on hide is like a scratch (think kitten mock-attacking your arm). The other major difference is that the katana cuts were propelled by Miko, Strength bonus likely small. The tongue cut was propelled by MitD's strength bonus, which is quite literally off the charts. So it is possible that MitD's self-inflicted cut went through his DR (if he has, say, 15/epic), and that it gets such a massive bonus that even with a mere 1d4 damage roll, it still significantly outclasses Miko's attacks.

Grey Wolf

... okay, while I'm sure we're getting into a medieval carpentry thing here again, what *would* the stats be on a sheet of paper as an improvised weapon?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Good point!

Yes, well, I've been here a while. Not all of those arguments are mine (although, after so many years, I mostly can't tell which ones are, and which ones aren't).

Edit:

... okay, while I'm sure we're getting into a medieval carpentry thing here again, what *would* the stats be on a sheet of paper as an improvised weapon?

Small improvised weapon is a 1d4, IIRC. But hey, for the sake of the argument, assume its a 1d1. The important thing is the Strength bonus.

GW

[Savannah]

Lately I've seen some promising candidates be thwarted by the rather less common DRX/Lawful which is annoying because it wouldn't stop her.

Unless Miko has Lawful weapons, which she might but as far as I know we have no evidence for, I don't see why she would automatically bypass DR/Lawful.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Unless Miko has Lawful weapons, which she might but as far as I know we have no evidence for, I don't see why she would automatically bypass DR/Lawful.

Oh, I thought that if the character was lawful, that would count as well. SO it is only if the weapon is lawful? How does a weapon know the law to be able to follow it or ignore it?

(This is when I wish I had more patience to learn 3.5 rules)

Grey Wolf

[AgentPaper]

(wasn't a character in the Dragonlance novels one of those?)

Something like half the cast, actually.

[CloakedDancer]

Oh, I thought that if the character was lawful, that would count as well. SO it is only if the weapon is lawful? How does a weapon know the law to be able to follow it or ignore it?

(This is when I wish I had more patience to learn 3.5 rules)

Grey Wolf

Weapons can be aligned. Relevant link.

[daa18]

I've been seeing a lot of posts about certain creatures' DR being ineffective against Miko due to her being lawful and good. However, this is a misunderstanding of the 3.5 DR system. DR/alignment is only overcome when the weapon striking the creature is of that alignment. The actual alignment of the character is irrelevant. Since we don't have any evidence that Miko's katana is holy or axiomatic, it is quite likely that DR/good or lawful would still be effective.

EDIT: Ninja'd

[Savannah]

Nope, the weapon has to be lawful axiomatic. It's a magical enhancement one can add to a weapon. Other ways to get it are having natural attacks and the (lawful) subtype (obviously not the case here) and having a class feature that lets you count your weapons as being law-aligned. I checked, and don't see that as a feature for a paladin (it is for a monk, but that would require her to have 10 levels in monk and be using her unarmed strikes).

Regarding how the weapon knows the law...being lawful has nothing to do with following the specific laws of a land. It just means you're consistent and follow some sort of internal code (which may or may not include 'follow the law'). The axiomatic property on a weapon...well, how can a weapon be good? And yet we don't really have issues with holy swords, and an axiomatic sword is the same sort of thing.

Edit: Bleh, that's what I get for checking my sources on the terminology

[hamishspence]

Other ways to get it are having natural attacks and the (lawful) subtype (obviously not the case here) and having a class feature that lets you count your weapons as being law-aligned.

Actually, creatures with an alignment subtype, count any weapons they wield as being aligned as well- it doesn't just have to be a natural weapon.

There's also easy ways of gaining an alignment subtype. A ritual in Savage Species, that can be cast by an 8th level cleric with the relevant alignment domain, grants the subtype.

Though there's no evidence that Miko has had that ritual used on her.

[Qwertystop]

On the other other hand, we know there's some type of enchantment on her equipment because it went away when she fell. Whether that includes an Axiomatic sword is another question, but it would be reasonable.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

On the other other hand, we know there's some type of enchantment on her equipment because it went away when she fell. Whether that includes an Axiomatic sword is another question, but it would be reasonable.

I was wondering about that earlier. We definitely know that her armour lost its enchantments when she fell (not only did its colour change, Rich confirmed it, IIRC). But I believe that the sword looks unchanged, unfortunately.

GW

[Olinser]

One interesting thing that I just noticed, and am not really sure what to make of it.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0374.html

After hitting the ground, and getting up - Miko seems to have suffered no damage. Also in the next panel, only Windstriker seems to be drinking a potion - and placement of the potions seems to indicate that Windstriker was drinking them at all.

I have no idea what to make of this - is there some way Miko could have been tossed like that without sustaining damage?