MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

[Mage Paradox]

Well, maybe it's just my reading (and Charmy's) but that's certainly what I took from this post and others:

Ooo! I have a reason! Because I have a vested interest in never, ever mentioning any rule artifact by its official name ever again.*

See, that other thread where I just posted that I wish I could decouple the comic from D&D? One of the main ways I'm mitigating the effects of the people who complain about rules accuracy is by deliberately obfuscating all rules, so it's impossible to tell exactly what is or isn't being done. No one can complain that I messed up the interpretation of a certain feat if they don't know what feat it is. The only exceptions are spells, because I unfortunately established that casters shout the name of the spell when they cast it, and I can't change that now. But for a while now, ALL feats have been homebrewed feats, all items have been homebrewed items, all new characters have unspecified classes, etc. Even when I have a specific actual game rule in mind when I use them.

Of course, that means I am working in direct active opposition to the purpose of this thread and there will never be an official definitive answer for anything that occurs ever again. Whoops.

If the Giant feels he's not bound by the rules, why should we assume the MiTD is a handbook D&D creature who operates within the rules? I can't see any reason to assume that anymore.

[Steven]

AFAIK the geekery thread has long known that anything they come up with is probably wrong in many ways because we already know Rich doesn't follow the rules. But they continue because they enjoy doing so.

The same goes for this thread: There is no real reason, other than what Rich has said, to assume we'll work out the identity of the MitD. But we enjoy doing so and this thread specifically tries to do so by looking the clues given in the comic and trying to fit them to the rules of DnD. Why only dnd? Well because that is where we can look due to fair use/parody/whatever.
Yes, it could be something that hasn't been stated out for dnd but we ASSUME it is because it's more fun this way and if our assumption is correct then we might have a chance of figuring out what the MitD is.

While we still enjoy searching and discussing this thread has a point.

Edited to remove unnecessary snark.

[Mage Paradox]

If that's true, can I ask what the reaction will be if/when the MiTD is revealed to be a homebrewed monster?

[ti'esar]

Well, maybe it's just my reading (and Charmy's) but that's certainly what I took from this post and others:



If the Giant feels he's not bound by the rules, why should we assume the MiTD is a handbook D&D creature who operates within the rules? I can't see any reason to assume that anymore.

Because the identity of the MitD was decided upon when the Giant did feel he was bound by the rules (or more precisely more bound by the rules, as he neither perfectly adhered to them in the beginning nor - as noted below - abandoned them completely today).

Because, after knowingly establishing it as a mystery and providing clues to the readers - after saying that it is possible for people to figure it out - it would be an act of spectacular bad faith for the Giant to suddenly change the rules of the mystery about the MitD's identity.

Because the Giant did not, as some people seem to have assumed, say he is outright giving up on the use of the D&D rules system as a framework for the comic - in fact, he said the exact opposite:

The truth is, if I could officially decouple the comic from D&D, I would do so. But I can't. There's no way, it's too ingrained in the abilities that the characters possess. Hell, I could have Roy turn to the camera and state that this comic no longer follows D&D rules, and it still wouldn't stop anyone. The only option is to end the comic abruptly and start a new one, and doing so without finishing the story properly would be a greater problem.

But for a while now, ALL feats have been homebrewed feats, all items have been homebrewed items, all new characters have unspecified classes, etc. Even when I have a specific actual game rule in mind when I use them.

I'm honestly starting to understand why "rules pedantry" frustrates Rich so much in the first place.

[Steven]

If that's true, can I ask what the reaction will be if/when the MiTD is revealed to be a homebrewed monster?

I, for one, will not give a single flying [CENSORED].

Because that's not the point.

Also, if Rich decided what the MitD was all the way back around strip 100 and picked something that could fill the role he required of it why would he change it some ~800 strips later?

And if he does I still wouldn't care because I trust Rich to do what he thinks is best for the STORY. You know, the thing I read the comic for.

[Mage Paradox]

Look, I like the story too. And I have never much cared what the MiTD is, my knowledge of Monsters is pretty poor, same as my knowledge for classes outside of the core magic user ones. That said, some people obviously do care, and have spent alot of time trying to work it out.

Let's say the MiTD uses a Wish spell next comic. Why shouldn't we assume it's just homebrewed? If Rich reveals it and says "it's a beholder, but with homebrewed powers to do X,y,z, and that's how it did those things", that would still allow for the initial monster selection to have been decided, but for Rich to have simply moved away from D&D (as he says he has been trying to do everywhere else). Again, it might just be my reading, but the way I read it he was saying that from now on we should assume nothing about any shown abilities, etc, as it could all be homebrewed add ons.

[Steven]

Then some people might get a little upset. But this thread has ALWAYS, well at least as long as I've been lurking and posting here, operated under the assumption that Rich has a different standard for the MitD than for other characters.

If it turns out that he added things because after 800 strips he found the monster he picked couldn't do what was needed to fill it's role then I think almost everyone who has contributed to this thread would be okay with that. Slightly let down maybe but I doubt they'd be too upset.

[ti'esar]

Heck, I've always assumed that the MitD is homebrewed to a mild extent, insofar as I believe the "it's a child, therefore it's smaller than usual" theory and there are very few monsters for which age categories exist beside dragons. That doesn't mean I think it's impossible to make any guess about it.

And I agree that the MitD is very likely held to a somewhat different standard then (say) Tarquin. I don't see why people are reading those posts to mean that Rich has totally abandoned any pretense of a D&D framework across the board in every case, especially just weeks after we were introduced to Malack's staff - a magic item designed specifically to let the story function despite the rules.

[Mage Paradox]

Actually Rich commented he regretted introducing the staff, because of the rules issues it caused, etc, and had him put it down for that reason.

[ti'esar]

Actually Rich commented he regretted introducing the staff, because of the rules issues it caused, etc, and had him put it down for that reason.

...

All right, that's it, I'm done.

Linking the post in question for anyone else who was confused after seeing that.

[Steven]

The way I read that post is that it was too much of a pain to keep track of the item and draw it in a consistent way. Not because the rules were a pain although that might have been some part of it.

[DaggerPen]

That's how I read it, too.

Seriously, guys, Rich hasn't just opened the doors to chaos here. He's still following a D&D framework, he's just waffling some of the details if they get in the way of the plot. He's given up trying to let the level geekery stuff work because it was getting too cumbersome, but he never - that I know - promised that it was possible to figure out the exact level and feats of every character. He did promise that we could figure out the MitD. This means that while he might waffle some of the exact rules for MitD a little bit, he won't change anything major without lampshading it - for example, MitD being able to speak was lampshaded, but if he, say, fudged Greater Teleport so that the MitD didn't have to go along with O-Chul and V, it'd be within the bounds of DM discretion. So basically, we're in exactly the same place we were before - assuming that the creature write-ups are accurate, but that the exact details might be fudged a little for the sake of the story.

And if he really has abandoned trying to hold the MitD to D&D rules altogether? Well, I'll be sad - just as I'm sad that the class & level geekery stuff doesn't work anymore, even though I understand Rich's reasoning - but since there's no point to this thread if we can't figure out the MitD, and we enjoy trying to figure out the MitD, then unless Rich comes in and says "Changed my mind, you're not going to be able to figure it out," we're going to continue to operate on the same assumptions we did before.

[Steven]

That's actually a good point. Rich knows that there is a lot of time and effort going into this thread: He's given the Geekery thread a heads up that he changed things but he has done no such thing here which suggests that in this specific case things haven't changed.

[The_Final_Stand]

I was always under the impression that this thread wasn't limiting itself to D&D at all. There are a variety of suggested creatures that have no relation to D&D (Snorlax springs to mind). Each of them has their own faults, but then so do most of the other suggestions.

[DaggerPen]

Technically speaking, we aren't limiting ourselves to D&D: however, copyright creatures not copyright a close friend of Rich's are verboten, and most public domain non-D&D creatures A.) Don't have access to teleport and/or B.) Have already been made into D&D creatures, and our general rule is that, this being a D&D-based comic, if a D&D version of a creature exists and came out before strip 100, then that will be the version used in the comic.

[Crusher]

That's how I read it, too.

Seriously, guys, Rich hasn't just opened the doors to chaos here. He's still following a D&D framework, he's just waffling some of the details if they get in the way of the plot. He's given up trying to let the level geekery stuff work because it was getting too cumbersome, but he never - that I know - promised that it was possible to figure out the exact level and feats of every character. He did promise that we could figure out the MitD. This means that while he might waffle some of the exact rules for MitD a little bit, he won't change anything major without lampshading it - for example, MitD being able to speak was lampshaded, but if he, say, fudged Greater Teleport so that the MitD didn't have to go along with O-Chul and V, it'd be within the bounds of DM discretion. So basically, we're in exactly the same place we were before - assuming that the creature write-ups are accurate, but that the exact details might be fudged a little for the sake of the story.

And if he really has abandoned trying to hold the MitD to D&D rules altogether? Well, I'll be sad - just as I'm sad that the class & level geekery stuff doesn't work anymore, even though I understand Rich's reasoning - but since there's no point to this thread if we can't figure out the MitD, and we enjoy trying to figure out the MitD, then unless Rich comes in and says "Changed my mind, you're not going to be able to figure it out," we're going to continue to operate on the same assumptions we did before.

Responding to MageParadox's point, speaking as someone who has invested (hmm, not exactly the right word. "Wasted pleasantly" would be better) a significant amount of time into trying to figure out what MitD is, I think DaggerPen's response captures my feelings nicely.

Rich has, perhaps not entirely intentionally, given us a delightful logic puzzle. At no point did he say "Hey, everyone come figure this out! I'll give you clues, which I promise to adhere to with plot-damaging fanaticism, and we'll see if you can solve it!"

I haven't been reading the strip for years to figure out what the MitD is, I've been reading it because Rich is a superlative storyteller and he always finds ways of surprising me. I try to figure out what the MitD is because its an entertaining diversion, nothing more. Like Bridge or stamp-collecting or whatever. He never promised me a rose garden. Getting all rules-lawyer-y on something he never promised in the first place would be pretty presumptuous on my part. Not to mention ungrateful.

Sure, after all this time I'm somewhat emotionally invested in what the MitD is, but I'm not *that* invested in it. If it turns out to be something homebrewed (or possibly worse, something that doesn't make sense. "Its a centaur with a ring of many wishes!"), yes, I'll be mildly disappointed, just like if Rich took the plot in a direction that *to me* didn't make sense. The potential that Rich will screw up the storytelling somehow doesn't prevent me from coming back or throw me into a nerd-rage. The guy isn't perfect and they can't *all* be winners, but he's told one heck of a story so far.

If he goes in a direction I don't like with MitD as part of that story-telling, well, that's my issue, not his.

[SavageWombat]

None of what Rich said changes what he said before- "it is possible to guess."

As far as I can tell the main participants in this thread have never assumed that the MitD is using explicit powers that work as described in the books, since Rich hasn't been bound by them.

Seems to me that this supports the strategy of "fit the key scenes" pretty well.

[Throknor]

That's how I read it, too.

Seriously, guys, Rich hasn't just opened the doors to chaos here.

1) So far it only seems to be Mage Paradox stirring the pot.

2) To get back on track, I wish I had a higher Knowledge(D&D Minutia), as I still think the "What Gate?" as the first clue is a large one. But it still seems a tossup if it means he's not impressed with a gate as he sees them all the time, or it means his perception is that low he doesn't see it as anything significant.

Hmm.

Any chance that's a Wisdom issue? Maybe a "he's young" thing. Maybe a "Not properly raised from childhood" thing. I know that really doesn't introduce anything new per se, but maybe it will trigger a thought in someone. Just trying to stir a relevant pot instead...

[sam79]

None of what Rich said changes what he said before- "it is possible to guess."

Would 'Known Monster' homebrewed together with 'ancillary special abilities' = 'possible to guess'? In the way it was possible to guess Malack was a vampire, because it was possible to assume a solution to his being out in the sun?

I should point out that I don't have much invested in the MitD mystery; the character is kind of sweet and interesting in small doses, but I don't know the D+D monster manuals well enough to be able to follow the clues. And I and can't help feeling that, after what will be over a decade of suspense by the time we get the answer, it will be hard for the reveal to not be an anti-climax. "oh, it WAS a tarrasque after all. Just a baby one with homebrew ecology and abilities".

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Any chance that's a Wisdom issue? Maybe a "he's young" thing. Maybe a "Not properly raised from childhood" thing.

I assume my usual answer is objectionable in some way? To recap: "gate" means, to MitD, a open portal to another dimension, and only that, and thus when Xykon points to the massive wooden door MitD doesn't see a gate anywhere, only a door. Lack of ranks in knowledge(synonyms) is all that is needed.

Would 'Known Monster' homebrewed together with 'ancillary special abilities' = 'possible to guess'? In the way it was possible to guess Malack was a vampire, because it was possible to assume a solution to his being out in the sun?

My guess is not. You could have figured out he was a vampire from the fangs and the pale skin and his tendency towards black billowing cloaks, but the sun thing really was a point against it. But then, Rich never said we could figure out Malack's condition.

Grey Wolf

[sam79]

My guess is not. You could have figured out he was a vampire from the fangs and the pale skin and his tendency towards black billowing cloaks, but the sun thing really was a point against it. But then, Rich never said we could figure out Malack's condition.

True, but the (obviously unanswerable) question is would the author have considered that Malack's 'condition' was "possible to guess"? I imagine that if this was the Malack's Condition thread, vamperism might have been ruled out, on the pretty good evidence of him being in the sun. It could be that a similar thing happens with the MitD, which I imagine might be frustrating for people who have invested in the mystery.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

True, but the (obviously unanswerable) question is would the author have considered that Malack's 'condition' was "possible to guess"?

Wrong place for such a question. Neither I, nor anyone that has ever posted in this thread, can answer what Rich would think can be figured out. The strict definition we employ in this thread is for the purposes of smoothly running the thread, and no other. If we take the approach of "anything is guessable, since I just did" my experience tells me we end up with Radiant Phrenic Half-Earth Elemental Half-Dragon (Crystal) Tarrasques, quickly followed by discussion on the nature of Okham's Razor.

Grey Wolf

[SavageWombat]

Look at it this way.

If this WEREN'T based on D&D rules, but Rich happened to mention in a post that the MitD was a "specific D&D monster" we'd have to use more general criteria.

1) The MitD is ridiculously strong and durable, but not particularly large
2) The MitD is nearly indescribable in appearance
3) The MitD has poorly-explained magical abilities it doesn't control well

None of which require that he specifically follow or break D&D rules.

The fact that the MitD does not follow RAW does not make it impossible to guess. Just don't take the rules too literally.

[sam79]

Wrong place for such a question.

Sorry; didn't mean to be out of line. Just speculating aloud, as it were.

The strict definition we employ in this thread is for the purposes of smoothly running the thread, and no other. If we take the approach of "anything is guessable, since I just did" my experience tells me we end up with Radiant Phrenic Half-Earth Elemental Half-Dragon (Crystal) Tarrasques, quickly followed by discussion on the nature of Okham's Razor.
Grey Wolf

Very sensible policy; indeed, probably the only way to have a sustainable thread. I wish you the very best of luck!

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Sorry; didn't mean to be out of line. Just speculating aloud, as it were.

Which is fine, just letting you know that if you want to reach Rich, posting the question here is probably the wrong place. Mind you, even if you posted in threads he is known to read, he is unlikely to answer such a question, but hey, if he does, I want to know the answer too.

Also, not really "out of line" (I'm no mod, can't say what is in line and what is out), that was supposed to be a gentle reminder that we are not Rich. Sorry if it came over harshly. I swear I'm working on that.

GW

[sam79]

Which is fine, just letting you know that if you want to reach Rich, posting the question here is probably the wrong place. Mind you, even if you posted in threads he is known to read, he is unlikely to answer such a question, but hey, if he does, I want to know the answer too.

Also, not really "out of line" (I'm no mod, can't say what is in line and what is out), that was supposed to be a gentle reminder that we are not Rich. Sorry if it came over harshly. I swear I'm working on that.

GW

Your reminder was gentleness itself, not harsh in the slightest; especially as you are probably sick to death with noobs like me coming onto your thread and saying stuff like "well if it has homebrew how'll ever guess it?!?!?!".

And no, I had no real hope/intention of using my post to indirectly ask our author to clarify; it was just idle specualtion, which probably should have stayed in my head!

[silversaraph]

I didn't see this in the first post, so:

In Snips, Snails, and Dragon Tails, Rich has a section on the fourth edition and not updating the characters from the main comic. There's a one panel comic with RC, Xykon, and the MitD:

Spoiler

Show

RC, showing surprise and pain: "Sir --- your necromantic aura! You have to turn it off! *kklrraaa!*"

Xykon, radiating said aura in range of RC and MitD: "My necro-what, now?"

MitD, in the box, looks normal: "I don't even know if I'm affected by that. Have I even been updated?"

It's ambiguous enough that it wouldn't necessarily exclude anything, but it really looks like a purposeful clue to me. Specifically, that he's a monster that *can* be updated (which mostly limits him to D&D), and also something with the aura. What do you think?

[AgentPaper]

That does seem to suggest that he's statted out in DnD, since you can't update something that never had an original version, but it doesn't necessarily mean that he shows up in any offical DnD book. He could just as easily be a homebrew (made and published by someone other than rich), which may or may not have been updated to 4E by it's creator, or someone else.

[ti'esar]

I think that's pretty much (intentionally) the opposite of a clue: it's the Giant refusing to say whether the MitD was converted to 4e, as well as whether he'd be affected by the aura.

[AgentPaper]

I think that's pretty much (intentionally) the opposite of a clue: it's the Giant refusing to say whether the MitD was converted to 4e, as well as whether he'd be affected by the aura.

I agree, but nestled in that anti-clue is a real clue: If MitD was a creature not statted out for 3.5, then he wouldn't be able to "update" to 4E in the first place, since there's nothing to update. At most, he could be "adapted" to 4E from whatever non-DnD source he came from.

Edit: As a counterpoint, though, it is possible that MitD is XYZ non-DnD creature, that Rich then converted to 3.5 rules. Then it would be possible for him to be updated to 4E from that 3.5 version, rather than adapted.