MitD VI: The Undiscovered Creature (Please Read the First Post)

[thereaper]

Yeah, I think this might be yet another point in favor of the Protean. It seems to be almost the ideal candidate, no matter how much time passes.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I did some looking around in the D&D 3.5 Monster Manual and found one that has similar abilities to our favorite umbrella wielding fiend. The Concordant Killer is adept at force magic and gains teleport at level 9. It also gains a stacking +1 strength modifier as it levels up. I think Xykon found a medium level Concordant Killer and used magic to alter its mind so it doesn't know what it is.

From what Google tells me, Corcondant Killer can be found in the Monster Manual IV (page 34), which came out July 11, 2006. MitD was around for a year and a half before that.

Do we know if this creature was defined earlier?

Grey Wolf

[Irish Musician]

So, any insights on the new comic with MitD coming up with "saving the day"?

I am not sure if it says something about him, other than him really liking O'chul, or if it is just stuff for the story.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

So, any insights on the new comic with MitD coming up with "saving the day"?

I am not sure if it says something about him, other than him really liking O'chul, or if it is just stuff for the story.

He's showing some character development, in that he is finally starting to think for himself. It means that the comment (by O-Chul) that he is more intelligent than he seems can now be firmly considered foreshadowing. Yes, we still would prefer monsters with high Int and low Wis, but in truth, we have never really examined those too closely. So I don't think 901 changes much in this thread.

I do want to hear dissenting opinions, though, as always.

Grey Wolf

[Conte_Vincero]

I'm not too good with DnD rules, does MitD have to have ranks in bluff to make that check?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I'm not too good with DnD rules, does MitD have to have ranks in bluff to make that check?

No.

Grey Wolf

[Irish Musician]

No.

Grey Wolf

I am confused....that shows me Roy doesn't, but not the Mitd. Unless I am completely missing something, which is entirely possible.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I am confused....that shows me Roy doesn't, but not the Mitd. Unless I am completely missing something, which is entirely possible.

That comic shows that (at least) in OotS, you can do untrained (i.e. rank-less) bluff checks. Rules about untrained checks apply across the board - i.e. the warrior class doesn't have a special rule that says "can perform untrained bluff checks". If Roy can, anyone can.

GW

[Irish Musician]

That comic shows that (at least) in OotS, you can do untrained (i.e. rank-less) bluff checks. Rules about untrained checks apply across the board - i.e. the warrior class doesn't have a special rule that says "can perform untrained bluff checks". If Roy can, anyone can.

GW

Right, but I think Conte was asking if MitD, specifically, had ranks in bluff. Which we don't know for sure, as far as I know.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Right, but I think Conte was asking if MitD, specifically, had ranks in bluff. Which we don't know for sure, as far as I know.

No, he asked if MitD had to have ranks. In OotS, he doesn't.

GW

[rweird]

Redcloak has a wisdom of 20, so would have a decent sense motive, while X has a +8 racial bonus, and from lich/age wisdom bonuses, it'd be +10, so it is possible, he made a realistic argument, which would give +10, and probably has a decent charisma (kind of a given for high level monsters).

Also, bluff can be used untrained, it isn't a special thing for OOTSverse, it works everywhere in D&D 3.5, you don't have to be trained to lie or fool someone.

[Shale]

It's a bit of support for the idea that MITD has high CHA, but most everything of his apparent CR has pretty darn high base stats across the board, so I doubt that's going to be dispositive.

[Irish Musician]

No, he asked if MitD had to have ranks. In OotS, he doesn't.

GW

Oops.......embarassing I misread that. My fault, carry on!

[DaggerPen]

I will say that, seeing Redcloak and MitD standing eye-to-eye in the current comic, I am now more convinced than ever that MitD is a Large or larger sized creature in a non-vertical orientation - crouched, coiled up, quadraped, whatever. That doesn't narrow things down much, though.

[Myan]

Hi!
Long time reader, first time poster, I just had an idea and I think it fits the depiction of MitD.
This is unconventional in some way but I don't think I read anything opposing it.

So my idea is this the MitD isn't a DnD monster. It is something worse, older, and more powerful than anything you can find in a source-book.
This is the ultimate tool of a DM.

I hope it wasn't proposed before, there is my idea:

Lo and behold! Here it comes, the mighty, the beautiful, the dreadful, the unpredictable, the one chance in a million, the woe bringer, the hope saver, the Deus Ex Machina!*

Yeah. Basically MitD is an embodiment of the Deus Ex Machina (DEM). In the Comic Universe, the laws of story telling, as the laws of DnD, seems tom be a reality, so this isn't so far fetched. And it is either compatible with MitD's characteristics and abilities or they become irrelevant (although, I could be wrong or there might be something I forgot).

When I think of it: how many time did the MitD helped the 'tagonist (pro' or ant') with good results out of nowhere ?
It fits The Giant statement that he created it but the DEM have been around fiction for a looong time: here is “the fine line”.
A DEM can be anything and have any ability it need.
MitD's father was “big and ate a lot”, like a Giant, THE Giant his father and creator.
I can't think of another correlation right now, but I'm sure there are more.

So what do you think of this (yeah, far-fetched crazy hell of an) idea?
I'm well aware that it's very unlikely but I like it.

*DUN DUN DUUUN **
** Or KRAKATOOM, I don't know.

PS: Sorry if there some bad English here and there, it is not my first language. I hope I'm understandable.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

MitD is an embodiment of the Deus Ex Machina (DEM)

Rich is not fond of being accused of relying on DeM in his comic, so this is very unlikely.

Furthermore, since MitD has been foreshadowed to be very powerful, he is in fact the exact antithesis of a DeM. His very existence was established as the most dangerous asset of TE. Yes, he was brought down a few pegs later on as his goofy personality was established, but in terms of raw, sheer power, he is probably second only to Xykon. Since he is slowly shedding that same goofy personality as character development kicks in, he is back to being a force to be reckoned with.

Thus, anything he does is, by the very definition of DeM, not a DeM since:
1) By the old greek definition, he is not a God the audience would expect to come down and restore the Status Quo
2) By the modern definition, he would not be a surprise twist that no-one could see coming.

Grey Wolf

[Kornaki]

I will say that, seeing Redcloak and MitD standing eye-to-eye in the current comic, I am now more convinced than ever that MitD is a Large or larger sized creature in a non-vertical orientation - crouched, coiled up, quadraped, whatever. That doesn't narrow things down much, though.

Keep in mind that Recloak is a small creature

[Kish]

Don't keep that in mind. Goblins in D&D aside, OotS goblins have always been Medium creatures.

[DaggerPen]

Keep in mind that Recloak is a small creature

Uh, he is? He's the same size as Xykon, who's definitely medium. My understanding was that goblins in the comic just got a size upgrade, a la sylphs.

Edit: I might have to change my icon if I keep getting ninja'd like this.

[Kornaki]

Hmm, I always assumed they were just "small", I've never really thought about it. I withdraw the objection

[Olinser]

Hi!
Long time reader, first time poster, I just had an idea and I think it fits the depiction of MitD.
This is unconventional in some way but I don't think I read anything opposing it.

So my idea is this the MitD isn't a DnD monster. It is something worse, older, and more powerful than anything you can find in a source-book.
This is the ultimate tool of a DM.

I hope it wasn't proposed before, there is my idea:

Lo and behold! Here it comes, the mighty, the beautiful, the dreadful, the unpredictable, the one chance in a million, the woe bringer, the hope saver, the Deus Ex Machina!*

Yeah. Basically MitD is an embodiment of the Deus Ex Machina (DEM). In the Comic Universe, the laws of story telling, as the laws of DnD, seems tom be a reality, so this isn't so far fetched. And it is either compatible with MitD's characteristics and abilities or they become irrelevant (although, I could be wrong or there might be something I forgot).

When I think of it: how many time did the MitD helped the 'tagonist (pro' or ant') with good results out of nowhere ?
It fits The Giant statement that he created it but the DEM have been around fiction for a looong time: here is “the fine line”.
A DEM can be anything and have any ability it need.
MitD's father was “big and ate a lot”, like a Giant, THE Giant his father and creator.
I can't think of another correlation right now, but I'm sure there are more.

So what do you think of this (yeah, far-fetched crazy hell of an) idea?
I'm well aware that it's very unlikely but I like it.

*DUN DUN DUUUN **
** Or KRAKATOOM, I don't know.

PS: Sorry if there some bad English here and there, it is not my first language. I hope I'm understandable.

The MiTD is a specific creature, with a specific set of abilities.

NOTHING about it can be considered a Deus Ex Machina (henceforth referred to as DEM).

A DEM is something sudden and unexpected. When a character suddenly displays abilities or items that haven't been used or hinted at before, and uses them to resolve it is a DEM. If the entire OOTS has been beaten by Xykon, and Belkar were to suddenly pull out a +10 Dagger of Undead Pwning and 1-shot Xykon with it, that would be a DEM. Roy's sword killing Xykon in a few rounds is not a DEM - we saw him get it, we know what it does, we know it is super effective against undead.

Likewise with spells. Redcloak using Implosion is not a DEM. We know he's a high-level cleric, we saw him casting 8th level spells, him gaining a level and casting 9th level spells is not a shocking development. Xykon casting a new Epic spell is not a DEM, he is an Epic-level sorcerer that has recently had a huge amount of time on his hands (and wealth from the city), I'd be more surprised if he DIDN'T have 2 or 3 new Epic spells up his sleeve.

Basically, nothing the MiTD does can be a DEM at this point. Rich knows what it is. He knows exactly what abilities it has. Just because WE don't know, doesn't mean that it's a DEM.

AFTER the MiTD has been revealed, we can go back and argue about whether any of his previous actions were DEM. Until then, any discussion is pointless.

[Barstro]

From what Google tells me, Corcondant Killer can be found in the Monster Manual IV (page 34), which came out July 11, 2006. MitD was around for a year and a half before that.

IIRC, Rich used MitD as a character for a while before actually deciding what it was, and verified that nothing he did in the past was contrary to that idea. I think he mentioned that it one of the books

If that's right, and such a statement/decision came after 07/11/06, then Corcondant Killer is still on the table.

EDIT: shown to be incorrect

[SaintRidley]

I think panel 9 of 901 pretty much proves the MitD is a relative of Elan.

[Bird]

The much more surprising thing to me than MitD's bluffing/thinking for himself was his occasional eloquence.

Within the same strip, he sounds learned and slightly poetic:

"The paladin of a conquered city, beaten but never broken"

Erudite:

"Prevented us from making a costly tactical error"

Casual/like Xykon:

"Some random fighter guy you already stuffed once"

Stupid/Like a kid:

"Huh? Where's the elf wizard who stole Xykon's soul-hidey place?"

I can't think of another character whose dialogue is this all over the map. Also, I can't remember another strip where MitD's dialogue slipped this far into poetic or erudite modes.

[SaintRidley]

The much more surprising thing to me than MitD's bluffing/thinking for himself was his occasional eloquence.

Within the same strip, he sounds learned and slightly poetic:

"The paladin of a conquered city, beaten but never broken"

Erudite:

"Prevented us from making a costly tactical error"

Casual/like Xykon:

"Some random fighter guy you already stuffed once"

Stupid/Like a kid:

"Huh? Where's the elf wizard who stole Xykon's soul-hidey place?"

I can't think of another character whose dialogue is this all over the map. Also, I can't remember another strip where MitD's dialogue slipped this far into poetic or erudite modes.

I'd say it sounds almost Bardic. Elan is seriously the closest we've seen to anything like this in dialogue.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

IIRC, Rich used MitD as a character for a while before actually deciding what it was, and verified that nothing he did in the past was contrary to that idea. I think he mentioned that it one of the books

If that's right, and such a statement/decision came after 07/11/06, then Corcondant Killer is still on the table.

Unfortunately, you are not correct. MitD's species was decided around strip #100, published September 2004. Please read the first post for the exact quotes (publish date based on date the discussion thread was created).

Yours,

Grey Wolf

[DaggerPen]

The much more surprising thing to me than MitD's bluffing/thinking for himself was his occasional eloquence.

Within the same strip, he sounds learned and slightly poetic:

"The paladin of a conquered city, beaten but never broken"

Erudite:

"Prevented us from making a costly tactical error"

Casual/like Xykon:

"Some random fighter guy you already stuffed once"

Stupid/Like a kid:

"Huh? Where's the elf wizard who stole Xykon's soul-hidey place?"

I can't think of another character whose dialogue is this all over the map. Also, I can't remember another strip where MitD's dialogue slipped this far into poetic or erudite modes.

He does mention a "fierce determination" in O-Chul's eyes at one point, but that's about the extent of it. It's possible that he's just been picking up the speech patterns of everyone around him - not too surprising, since his species apparently doesn't even usually speak Common.

[Bird]

I'd say it sounds almost Bardic. Elan is seriously the closest we've seen to anything like this in dialogue.

I hadn't thought of that. You're right.

[Savannah]

Stupid/Like a kid:

"Huh? Where's the elf wizard who stole Xykon's soul-hidey place?"

To be fair to MitD, when he asked what Xykon's phylactery was, he was told it was his "soul-hidey place". I don't remember Redcloak and Xykon ever discussing the phylactery around MitD enough that he'd learn the proper term.

[Myan]

I think I've been misunderstand or I didn't explain myself very well (much likely).

So:

Rich is not fond of being accused of relying on DeM in his comic, so this is very unlikely.

Furthermore, since MitD has been foreshadowed to be very powerful, he is in fact the exact antithesis of a DeM. His very existence was established as the most dangerous asset of TE. Yes, he was brought down a few pegs later on as his goofy personality was established, but in terms of raw, sheer power, he is probably second only to Xykon. Since he is slowly shedding that same goofy personality as character development kicks in, he is back to being a force to be reckoned with.

Thus, anything he does is, by the very definition of DeM, not a DeM since:
1) By the old greek definition, he is not a God the audience would expect to come down and restore the Status Quo
2) By the modern definition, he would not be a surprise twist that no-one could see coming.

Grey Wolf

The MiTD is a specific creature, with a specific set of abilities.

NOTHING about it can be considered a Deus Ex Machina (henceforth referred to as DEM).

[...]

Basically, nothing the MiTD does can be a DEM at this point. Rich knows what it is. He knows exactly what abilities it has. Just because WE don't know, doesn't mean that it's a DEM.

AFTER the MiTD has been revealed, we can go back and argue about whether any of his previous actions were DEM. Until then, any discussion is pointless.

I never meant that Rich is relying on DeM and I think MidD could well be more powerful than Xykon (or not).

But that's not my point.

"The MiTD is a specific creature, with a specific set of abilities."
I agree and never said otherwise(or so I thought). I meant thet MitD is a creature wich is a living, thinking DeM and it have its own well defined powers. Power that Rich know and choose.
I'm even sure that one could make a character sheet of MitD.

What I'm saying is that in this world where story telling law are real fundamental law of reality there is a creature wich is the DeM. Maybe there is even a species! And maybe MitD will meet a she-DeM and they'll have little babie-DeM.

The thing is, as MitD is character it have its own personality, motives, abilities and therefore his doing can't be called a Deus Ex Machina from the reader point of view. Every thing is clearly logic and part of a coherent character arc.
We know it's powerful. Its deeds are surprising, yes, but it stop right here (you both explained it quite well).

But I can't prevent my self of thinking that MitD does look like DeMish sometimes. And from the tagonist (PCs and TE) some event could be called DeM. Like the "escape!" thing. The character are surprised, this ability was never shown before...
It's not a surprising twist for us, for the characters point of view, it is.

And, well, MitD does restore status quo at some time.
And, some of the readers wondered of it wasn't related to a deity.

I'll try try to put it that way: Rich isn't using DeM when he write MitD. But inside the story he behave like a living DeM, a creature with the abilities of a DeM.


(Hope I'm understandable this time)