Class and Level Geekery IX: the thread levels up again!

[Balance]

We know Malack's ECL though, he has at least 11 levels of Cleric and a +8 level adjustment for being a vampire. Not to mention a +1 for being a Lizardfolk. So Malack's ECL is at least 20.

How is Malack's ECL relevant to turning? A positive level adjustment reflects a disadvantage in hit dice, saving throws, and the like in exchange for other abilities. ECL is used to determine where a character is in the experience tables (and starting equipment, but that's obviously far in the past here). You use actual level/hit dice for everything else, including turning.

The extra hit die for starting lizardfolk, on the other hand, would alter the numbers, I think. If I'm understanding correctly, Malack should be turned as his cleric level + 5. That would push his max cleric level down by 1 in each scenario, assuming that his precaution is within the bounds of reason and that he knows--at least approximately--how effective Durkon is likely to be at turning him.

[EmperorSarda]

How is Malack's ECL relevant to turning?

It's not. I was mistaken. And you have been ninja'd by several others pointing this out. Let's move on please.

[Balance]

It's not. I was mistaken. And you have been ninja'd by several others pointing this out. Let's move on please.

Sorry--I went off to research it in mid-reply, because I wasn't sure, and didn't see the new posts when I got back. (It's never come up in any of my campaigns.)

[Dark Matter]

Technically 17+ since this thread pegs Malack as at least an 11th level cleric thus far.

Good point. Let's call him 13 hit dice.

Durkon (15th level) can turn between 11 and 18 hit dice of undead, averaging 15 dice.

His actual turn roll (assuming a -1 Chr mod) is 2d6+14

So yeah, I can see why Malack would be concerned.

[Kurald Galain]

So as I'm sure most of you are aware, OOTS strips will appear regularly in the new Gygax magazine. Since the Dragon magazine comics have traditionally been a valid target for Geekery, the comics in this new magazine should likewise qualify. Unfortunately I haven't seen the magazine yet, but perhaps someone would like to comment on what this comic tells us about character stats?

[Winter]

magazine yet, but perhaps someone would like to comment on what this comic tells us about character stats?

At least issue #1 tells us nothing new.

[zimmerwald1915]

Reposted from the Spells Durkon Has Cast Already Today thread:

Is it certain that Durkon has prepared planar ally today? Strip 865 does not seem definitive, since Durkon talks about casting it if the Order can hold the Gate til dawn.

Excluding planar ally, the plane shifts and greater magic weapon, here's the list of spells Durkon has cast or stated he has prepared today:

8th –
7th – holy word^D, mass death ward, resurrection (2)
6th – extended true seeing, find the path, heal (2)
5th – true seeing
4th –
3rd – dispel magic, mass resist energy, meld into stone, remove blindness/deafness, speak with dead, thor's lightning^D
2nd – hold person
1st –
0 (at-will) – detect poison, guidance

...plus at least two healing spells of unknown level

Assuming Durkon's level 15 and has 23 Wisdom, he has, including one domain spell slot per level, two level 8 spell slots, three level 7 spell slots, five level 6 spell slots, six level 5 spell slots, six level 4 spell slots, seven level 3 spell slots, eight level 2 spell slots, eight level 1 spell slots, and six level 0 spell slots. He has cast four level 7 spells, of which holy word was a domain spell, and four level 6 spells of which none was a domain spell. Thus, he had to have prepared either mass death ward or one of his two resurrections in his non-domain level 8 spell slot, and in turn that his level 8 and level 6 domain spells are his sole remaining prepared spells above level 5.

[Balance]

A possible "oops" in my earlier calculations:

While we're pretty sure Durkon's Knowledge (Religion) isn't maxed out, it's possible he's taken 5 or more ranks in it by now. If so, he gets a +2 bonus on his turn rolls, so his best modified roll would be 21. As it happens, that isn't actually enough to bump him up to the next tier of turning, so I don't think it changes the analysis. I just didn't want to overlook it.

Oh, and speaking of skills: doesn't the fact that he researched a spell at all indicate that Durkon has some ranks in Spellcraft?

[SinsI]

Reposted from the Spells Durkon Has Cast Already Today thread:

At such level, in determining his spells per day we should count only spells that:
1) were cast on-screen
2) if they were cast more than once - were cast without any sufficient off-screen delay

First point is because they have more than enough resources to casually use scrolls, wands and other items, second point is because of items like Pearls of Power that allow to restore memorization of a spell you've already cast once.

[Feddlefew]

As of the latest strip, we now have strong evidence that Malack is a multiclassed (Barbarian or Shaman)/Cleric.

[mawexzon]

As of the latest strip, we now have strong evidence that Malack is a multiclassed (Barbarian or Shaman)/Cleric.

I throught the same, although I think that with shaman he refers to the title, as being some kind of "Tribal Cleric" should suffice

[zimmerwald1915]

At such level, in determining his spells per day we should count only spells that:
1) were cast on-screen
2) if they were cast more than once - were cast without any sufficient off-screen delay

First point is because they have more than enough resources to casually use scrolls, wands and other items, second point is because of items like Pearls of Power that allow to restore memorization of a spell you've already cast once.

Mass death ward is a custom spell unique to Durkon, who has never once alluded to having the Scribe Scroll feat. It is almost certain he cast it from a spell slot. He used diamond dust as a material component for his attempted resurrection of a Draketooth, and stated he would need to use the rest of his diamond dust for another attempt, so both of those must have come from his spell slots. We saw him cast holy word onscreen.

Strictly speaking, the number of lower-level spells doesn't matter for purposes of determining a character's level once we've accounted, as we have, for all of Durkon's level 8 and level 7 slots. If Durkon casts another level 7 spell, or two level 8 spells, then we'll need to revise his level up or down.

Speaking of which, the new comic presents some more spells:

8th –
7th – holy word^D, mass death ward, resurrection (2)
6th – extended true seeing, find the path, heal (2)
5th – true seeing
4th – cure critical wounds
3rd – dispel magic, mass resist energy, meld into stone, remove blindness/deafness, speak with dead, thor's lightning^D
2nd – cure moderate wounds, hold person (2), remove paralysis
1st –
0 (at-will) – detect poison, guidance

[Feddlefew]

I throught the same, although I think that with shaman he refers to the title, as being some kind of "Tribal Cleric" should suffice

I was pretty certain that there was a shaman NPC class, but I don't have my DMG on me right now to check.

[Douglas]

I rather think that Malack's class has always been cleric, and the "shaman" thing is a descriptive title just like Miko being a samurai. "Barbarian", similarly, is a descriptive adjective for the society he lived in, not an indication of class.

[mawexzon]

Yeah, Like that rogue cleric who was just a cleric who went rogue, not a rogue/cleric.

[Mike Havran]

Is it possible to put Malack's level to 12+ since 873?
Lv 11 Cleric can cast 1+1 6th level spells and 2+1 5th level spells. In one day, Malack casted:

Blade Barrier and Heal(notice that unlike in 724, he's casting from his hand, not just staff) If he were just lv.11, one of his domains should be Strength or Healing(heh)

Harm and Quickened Inflict Moderate Wounds. With the same reasoning, one of his domains must be Destruction.

Quickened Inflict Light Wounds and twice Flame Strike. So he would have to have Sun or War domain.

And that simply doesn't hold water. So he needs to have at least 12 Cleric levels.

Edit: I forgot he may also get bonus spells from High Wisdom. Never mind then

[St Fan]

Malack is over 200 years old. This can be added to the profile.

Also, he was named differently while alive.

[mawexzon]

If he is 200 years old, Does he get age bonuses? Undead don't get penalties if I remember correctly.

[RMS Oceanic]

There's no clear answer on Undead and age benefits. As a DM I'd rule that any bonuses they got would be preserved and physical penalties would be eliminated (especially for Con), but they wouldn't get anything else. However since there's no clear answer, I'll leave it alone for now.

Age and Alias is fair game though.

Is it possible to put Malack's level to 12+ since 873?
Lv 11 Cleric can cast 1+1 6th level spells and 2+1 5th level spells. In one day, Malack casted:

Blade Barrier and Heal(notice that unlike in 724, he's casting from his hand, not just staff) If he were just lv.11, one of his domains should be Strength or Healing(heh)

Harm and Quickened Inflict Moderate Wounds. With the same reasoning, one of his domains must be Destruction.

Quickened Inflict Light Wounds and twice Flame Strike. So he would have to have Sun or War domain.

And that simply doesn't hold water. So he needs to have at least 12 Cleric levels.

Edit: I forgot he may also get bonus spells from High Wisdom. Never mind then

So what would we mark this as? Higher cleric levels or higher wisdom? 22 is easy to reach, especially when you have 200 years to do it.

[mawexzon]

There's no clear answer on Undead and age benefits. As a DM I'd rule that any bonuses they got would be preserved and physical penalties would be eliminated (especially for Con), but they wouldn't get anything else. However since there's no clear answer, I'll leave it alone for now.

Age and Alias is fair game though.



So what would we mark this as? Higher cleric levels or higher wisdom? 22 is easy to reach, especially when you have 200 years to do it.

If he has Age bonuses for being 200 years old then having high wisdom a lot more probable.

[Sniffnoy]

Note on the first post: The link for Durkon's Mass Death Ward is broken.

[Kurald Galain]

There's no clear answer on Undead and age benefits. As a DM I'd rule that any bonuses they got would be preserved and physical penalties would be eliminated (especially for Con),

As an undead, he has no constitution score anyway.

[Stormlock]

If he has Age bonuses for being 200 years old then having high wisdom a lot more probable.

He doesn't even need age bonuses to hit 22. Vampire +4. Assuming 2 points assigned from level ups, that gives him +6. One would assume he's probably got at least 12 or more base wis if he's the shaman, and a magic item boosting wis seems like almost a given as well for someone of his ECL (which is Epic) and accompanying wealth (which should be on par with Tarquin if not greater). I'd probably peg him as having the highest wisdom score of any humanoid in the game thus far, somewhere in the 22-26 range, depending on items, rolls and age bonuses.

Up until now I'd been assuming he'd be turned into a vampire while part of Tarquin's adventuring party. With the revelation that he's actually over 200 years old, I'm inclined to think he's got more than his share of secrets kept from Tarquin as well, and a lot more power than he let on. You don't likely get to be over 200 years old and reach epic levels without some serious talent and power.

Edited; I had mistakenly thought lizardfolk got bonus wisdom, probably a carryover from some roguelike or another I've played.

[Kurald Galain]

I would expect a creature to stop aging (and stop getting the associated bonuses/penalties, or perhaps only the latter) the moment he turns undead, although I cannot find that rule on d20srd.

[Techwarrior]

I would expect a creature to stop aging (and stop getting the associated bonuses/penalties, or perhaps only the latter) the moment he turns undead, although I cannot find that rule on d20srd.

Its because there is no such rule. The books literally makes no statements either way.

[mawexzon]

I would expect a creature to stop aging (and stop getting the associated bonuses/penalties, or perhaps only the latter) the moment he turns undead, although I cannot find that rule on d20srd.

Even if it isn't on the rules, The Giant has shown to house-rule it that way, like when Xykon became Lich he felt a lot better, likely returning any penalties he had when he was alive.
Edit: Now that i've checked, Xykon has age bonuses, so why should Malack have them too?

[SinsI]

He used diamond dust as a material component for his attempted resurrection of a Draketooth, and stated he would need to use the rest of his diamond dust for another attempt, so both of those must have come from his spell slots.

Strictly speaking, the number of lower-level spells doesn't matter for purposes of determining a character's level once we've accounted, as we have, for all of Durkon's level 8 and level 7 slots. If Durkon casts another level 7 spell, or two level 8 spells, then we'll need to revise his level up or down.

7th – holy word^D, mass death ward, resurrection (2)
6th – extended true seeing, find the path, heal (2)

His two castings of Heal had a lot of off-screen time in-between - more than enough to spend a round on activating Pearl Of Power 6. Same with Resurrections and Pearl of Power 7.

In both cases we can only count three 7th level spell slots and three 6th level spell slots used.

[Stormlock]

Even if it isn't on the rules, The Giant has shown to house-rule it that way, like when Xykon became Lich he felt a lot better, likely returning any penalties he had when he was alive.
Edit: Now that i've checked, Xykon has age bonuses, so why should Malack have them too?

Well, one potential argument is that Xykon was old BEFORE he became undead. We don't know how old Malack was when he got turned, and maybe you only get the age bonus to mental stats while you're alive and retain it while dead, but can't actually accrue them while dead.

I personally find the whole age bonus stat thing really weird anyways. Orcs get smarter faster than humans, and elves and dwarves take forever to gain any wisdom or intelligence or charisma? How does that work?

[mawexzon]

Well, one potential argument is that Xykon was old BEFORE he became undead. We don't know how old Malack was when he got turned, and maybe you only get the age bonus to mental stats while you're alive and retain it while dead, but can't actually accrue them while dead.

I personally find the whole age bonus stat thing really weird anyways. Orcs get smarter faster than humans, and elves and dwarves take forever to gain any wisdom or intelligence or charisma? How does that work?

I think it has to do with their different way of seeing and perceiving the world, for example, elfs reach physical maturity around 25, but they don't reach point of emotional and mental maturity to start adventuring until quite later.

[Stormlock]

Yeah but I still find it really odd to think of an elf that had been adventuring for 120 years from age 115 would have learned less than an orc that fought for 30 from age 15. The 235 year old elf has less world experience than the 45 year old orc? Really? The elf who has been fighting life and death battles for over a century, since before the orc's grandparents were born? He gets less of a wis/int/cha modifier?