Class and Level Geekery IX: the thread levels up again!

[KillingAScarab]

It makes no sense to assume a fairly major plot item was destroyed offpanel, unheralded, unhinted.

If you were responding to my post, I made no claim of destruction. I just wonder if we have any way of knowing it is in Xykon's possession.

If Redcloak grabbed the Soul Gem, I'm guessing it was right after this:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0117.html

a quick dash forward to snatch it up after it rolled on the floor from Xykon's robes- then legging it down the secret passage.

Note that V's Ring of Wizardry was pried off of Xykon's charred finger bone so the Order must have investigated what remained of the body as well.

If by "body" you mean the remains which were scattered everywhere, sure. One of my favorite lines from that part was "But now I have skeleton dust in my eye!"

[SowZ]

It makes no sense to assume a fairly major plot item was destroyed offpanel, unheralded, unhinted.

I'm almost positive Rich wouldn't have come up with the soul gem thing by the time Xykon went kablooie. So it wouldn't have been mentioned. It would make less sense for Xykon to mention, "Hey, remember my black soul gem that was destroyed a while ago?" "... Yep."

Redcloak didn't loot Xykon's body, evidenced by V looting the Ring of Wizardry. There is no reason to think any of Xykon's possessions in SoD returned to him. And Xykon keeps the gem in his pocket. I say it went BOOM along with the rest of the skeleton.

[SavageWombat]

Except, of course, for the fairly major plot device point mentioned earlier. There is no way Rich introduced that just for local color.

[SowZ]

Except, of course, for the fairly major plot device point mentioned earlier. There is no way Rich introduced that just for local color.

Which could still come into play with the gem being destroyed and the souls freed, or the gem being sucked into the gate.

[Carl]

Can't believe you lot missed this.

652 Xykon Cast's Maximised Energy Drain. Given we know he has Epic Spellcasting that means he has a minimum of 4 epic feats AFAIK. That means minimum level of 26.

This also requires a minimum of 34 Int. Though a large chunk could conceivably be an item we have no evidence of, though i belive that itself require Xykon or Redcloak have Epic Craft Feats, (1 or more depending). Which if it's Xykon would raise his minimum level again.

[hamishspence]

No, we didn't miss it. There is much debate over whether he did this the conventional way, or via the Sudden Maximize Spell feat (Miniatures Handbook, Complete Arcane) or via a Rod of Maximize Spell.

Since we don't know which of these, we haven't picked one.

[ellindsey]

Can't believe you lot missed this.

652 Xykon Cast's Maximised Energy Drain. Given we know he has Epic Spellcasting that means he has a minimum of 4 epic feats AFAIK. That means minimum level of 26.

This also requires a minimum of 34 Int. Though a large chunk could conceivably be an item we have no evidence of.

gee, if only that were explicitly mentioned in this thread's FAQ or something...

[SavageWombat]

Can't believe you lot missed this.

652 Xykon Cast's Maximised Energy Drain. Given we know he has Epic Spellcasting that means he has a minimum of 4 epic feats AFAIK. That means minimum level of 26.

This also requires a minimum of 34 Int. Though a large chunk could conceivably be an item we have no evidence of.

No one missed that. You have belatedly stumbled upon one of the largest points of controversy in this thread. You may want to duck.

[Carl]

No, we didn't miss it. There is much debate over whether he did this the conventional way, or via the Sudden Maximize Spell feat (Miniatures Handbook, Complete Arcane) or via a Rod of Maximize Spell.

Fair cop, oh and sorry for digging it back up, i just noticed on a re-read and the mechanics of it hit me. Though dn;t we have a rule about rod's e.t.c. that we have to have evidence of them to presume their presence? We've denied adding a whole bunch of things the order might have to their lists on that grounds recently.

And it's been a while since read the FAQ ok, i just flipped to Xykon to see his minimum level.

[SaintRidley]

Also, Xykon does not cast based on Int, so Maximized Energy Drain doesn't mean anything in terms of establishing his Int.

[Kish]

If the thread were to formally establish a rule that prioritizes feats above items for explanations of demonstrated effects...or the other way around...I would want to know why.

[Carl]

Also, Xykon does not cast based on Int, so Maximized Energy Drain doesn't mean anything in terms of establishing his Int.

Okay then, his Charisma, i was arguing about wizards, (who do use int), over in hombrew before i went binging through the archives.

If the thread were to formally establish a rule that prioritizes feats above items for explanations of demonstrated effects...or the other way around...I would want to know why.

Absence of evidence. AFAIK that was a thread rule. If we can't show it exists we presume it doesn't. Assuming Xykon used a rod there is especially odd since he has nothing in either hand and we can see both clearly. Assuming a rod there is assuming a rod in the absence of evidence to show it. Now weather he used a 12th level spell slot of maximised it normally is another matter.

Also unless there's an equivalent of that Maxamise feat for still spell he still needs a level of Improved Spell Capacity, (so minimum lv 23), and 30 Charisma to cast a Still Meteor Swarm. Hope i haven't opened another argument...

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Can we reasonably expect that is still in his possession?

Yes, because he also still has Dorukan's headband in his possession. I assume he kept all the non-combat implements in a bag behind his throne, and RC grabbed it as they left through the secret tunnel, while his combat-oriented magic items stayed behind in his old corpse.

If, on the other hand, we try to assume he lost all his magical items when Roy chucked him at the runes, there is no way to explain how he cast cloister on Gobblinotopia (sp?) and why the Order aren't carrying far more cool epic level magic items, since we know Xykon likes to pack serious defences. It feels like Xykon gave them a sporting chance by only using his ring of wizardry, and left everything else in the above mentioned stash.

Grey Wolf

[hamishspence]

Also unless there's an equivalent of that Maxamise feat for still spell he still needs a level of Improved Spell Capacity, (so minimum lv 23), and 30 Charisma to cast a Still Meteor Swarm. Hope i haven't opened another argument...

There is indeed a Sudden Still Spell feat.

[Kish]

Absence of evidence. AFAIK that was a thread rule. If we can't show it exists we presume it doesn't. Assuming Xykon used a rod there is especially odd since he has nothing in either hand and we can see both clearly. Assuming a rod there is assuming a rod in the absence of evidence to show it.

You do not appear to have processed what I said.

You are arguing for assuming multiple epic feats, as well as against assuming an item. Why does "absence of evidence" apply to the item--and not to the feats?
"Absence of evidence" is, in fact, why neither of them is listed. There are multiple explanations for Xykon's demonstrated abilities, and so the thread makes no assumption about which one is correct.

[hamishspence]

Yes, because he also still has Dorukan's headband in his possession. I assume he kept all the non-combat implements in a bag behind his throne, and RC grabbed it as they left through the secret tunnel, while his combat-oriented magic items stayed behind in his old corpse.

Probably the Monster's carrying the bag rather than Redcloak:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0120.html
unless it's a small one.

[Carl]

You are arguing for assuming multiple epic feats, as well as against assuming an item. Why does "absence of evidence" apply to the item--and not to the feats?
"Absence of evidence" is, in fact, why neither of them is listed. There are multiple explanations for Xykon's demonstrated abilities, and so the thread makes no assumption about which one is correct.

Except I'm not because as it turns out there is no evidence. The point is if we where told explicitly that Xykon did not use Sudden Maximise then can conclude he has the epic feats. He did not use a rod in that strip. Simple as that. He may or may not have such a rod but he did not use it if he did, simple as that.

[hamishspence]

Given that sorcerers must still use full-round-actions with the rods- that would rule out a Rod of Still Spell for his stilled Meteor Swarm, at least.

I'm not sure if it's possible to use the rod without showing it- activating it under one's robes, so to speak.

[zimmerwald1915]

I'm not sure if it's possible to use the rod without showing it- activating it under one's robes, so to speak.

The entry on metamagic rods specifically does not say whether a metamagic rod has to be held in order to be used. It does call metamagic rods "Use-Activated", however. Here's what the SRD has to say on the subject of Use-Activated magic items:

This type of item simply has to be used in order to activate it. A character has to drink a potion, swing a sword, interpose a shield to deflect a blow in combat, look through a lens, sprinkle dust, wear a ring, or don a hat. Use activation is generally straightforward and self-explanatory.

Many use-activated items are objects that a character wears. Continually functioning items are practically always items that one wears. A few must simply be in the character’s possession (on his person).

This suggests that, to be activated, a Use-Activated magic item should be used in a commonsense way. In the case of a rod, this would be holding it in one's hands and brandishing it visibly. The last sentence I quoted (the actual entry is longer) suggests, in turn, that Use-Activated items that can be activated simply by being in the character's possession are the exception rather than the rule.

Getting back to Rods, both the descriptions of the Rod of Absorption and the Rod of Cancellation say specifically that they have to be held in the wielder's hands to be used. It does call the creature wielding it a "holder", however, while the descriptions of the metamagic rods refer to the item's "wielder". The wording here is contradictory. One interpretation would extend the descriptions of the Rods of Absorption and Cancellation to all rods, and say that they should all be held in the hands to be wielded. On the other hand, it is also possible to argue that the absence of the term "holder" in the descriptions of any other Rods other than Absorption and Cancellation is an indication that they are the only Rods that need to be held in the hands to be wielded.

Personally, I think the overall guide to Use-Activated items tilts the preponderance of evidence towards the argument that all Rods should be held in order to be wielded, since that's the commonsense way to activate something that looks like a "scepter, light mace, or club".

[KillingAScarab]

Yes, because he also still has Dorukan's headband in his possession. I assume he kept all the non-combat implements in a bag behind his throne, and RC grabbed it as they left through the secret tunnel, while his combat-oriented magic items stayed behind in his old corpse.

If, on the other hand, we try to assume he lost all his magical items when Roy chucked him at the runes, there is no way to explain how he cast cloister on Gobblinotopia (sp?)...

Ah, yes, I had forgotten about the cloister headband. We get to see that headband being used. So, Team Evil must have been able to hold onto at least some of the things which were in their possession in Dorukan's Dungeon. Still, that ring of positive energy isn't listed on Xykon's stat block. Was there something in the printed books which explicitly states it is gone, or that the gem is not missing?

[RickDaily12]

Getting back to Rods, both the descriptions of the Rod of Absorption and the Rod of Cancellation say specifically that they have to be held in the wielder's hands to be used. It does call the creature wielding it a "holder", however, while the descriptions of the metamagic rods refer to the item's "wielder". The wording here is contradictory. One interpretation would extend the descriptions of the Rods of Absorption and Cancellation to all rods, and say that they should all be held in the hands to be wielded. On the other hand, it is also possible to argue that the absence of the term "holder" in the descriptions of any other Rods other than Absorption and Cancellation is an indication that they are the only Rods that need to be held in the hands to be wielded.

Personally, I think the overall guide to Use-Activated items tilts the preponderance of evidence towards the argument that all Rods should be held in order to be wielded, since that's the commonsense way to activate something that looks like a "scepter, light mace, or club".

To support this further, I'd just like to suggest that Nale, here, is using a Rod of Necromancy (matches the spells and visual description).

He is actively using it in his hands, and is also a Sorcerer.

So the idea that Xykon was using a Rod of Maximize Spell without actually holding it is a bit doubtful when we have visual evidence of Nale, whom shares his class, and was using a rod while holding it with his hands.

Are there other items that can produce Metamagic effects that aren't rods?

[Kurald Galain]

To support this further, I'd just like to suggest that Nale, here, is using a Rod of Necromancy (matches the spells and visual description).

Actually, we have Word Of Giant that that's a wand of enervation, not a rod of any kind.

[RickDaily12]

Ah, thanks Kurald. Didn't see one of those, spot on.

But still, wands, rods, aren't they both Use-Activation items regardless? So for the purposes of this conversation, doesn't the same induction apply?

If Xykon was using a rod at the time, but we display the wands with Nale, then why doesn't he have to display his magic item?

[zimmerwald1915]

But still, wands, rods, aren't they both Use-Activation items regardless? So for the purposes of this conversation, doesn't the same induction apply?

No, they're not. Wands are Spell Trigger items.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Probably the Monster's carrying the bag rather than Redcloak:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0120.html
unless it's a small one.

Either will work, of course, although I would argue that MitD cannot be trusted with delicate things, where "delicate" here means "can't survive a Richter 8.0 earthquake centered on it". Luckily for RC, in OotS a small bag can carry a large amount.

Still, potaito-potahto.

GW

[Kurald Galain]

Either will work, of course, although I would argue that MitD cannot be trusted with delicate things, where "delicate" here means "can't survive a Richter 8.0 earthquake centered on it". Luckily for RC, in OotS a small bag can carry a large amount.

Still, potaito-potahto.

I would argue that MitD would eat your potaito

[137beth]

I would argue that MitD would eat your potaito

I would argue that he could eat your potahto as well. Or any other pronunciation of any vegetable (or anything, unless it is a baby).

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I would argue that MitD would eat your potaito

In all seriousness, I'd like to offer a suggestion in the matter of item/feat unknown, as well as the "what pre-Dorukan items survived Xykon's destruction". I would argue that the way forward, rather than rehash this discussion every three pages or so, is to accept that sometimes there are two or three decent explanations and, rather than keep adding it to the FAQ, just list the possibilities under the character. You could have the items Xykon definitely has as of current comic, like normal, and after them, a section of "pre-Dorukan items", with a note such as "may have been lost when Roy destroyed Xykon, although at least one has been known to have survived and remain in possession on Xykon (Dorukan's Hippy headband)."

Similar approach could work for rod of Rod of Maximize Spell/Sudden Still Spell feat/Sorcerer choice instead of familiar.

This thread would want to be as accurate as possible, and sometimes accuracy means admitting that, lacking further evidence, Okham can only narrow the possibilities so far.

Admittedly, this works best when it is all in the same category (such as items he may have one possessed), but even for "casting while grappled" type of situations, a "possibilities" section would work:

Xykon
[stuff]
Contested Information:

• Casting while grappled: One of the following:
  
  • Feat: Sudden Still Spell
  • Item: Rod of Maximize Spell
  • Build:

Etc.

Grey Wolf

[RMS Oceanic]

We tried adding [Disputed] tags to information once before. We found it caused even more arguing about the thing in question.

[Kurald Galain]

Blekar: Wand of Dispel Clothing (the lawyers were there to shut the strip down, not confiscate the wand), mimic creature, head of 4E Belkar.
Elan: Intelligent Evil sword, castanets, sombrero / Mexican outfit.
Haley: bag of 10,000 copper pieces
V: unidentified purple and green potions, unidentified scrolls x2, unidentified chalice.

Added. Note that most of this had already been in the list since SSDT was released in 2011. Also added Roy's suit. I do think that if Xykon still has the soul gem and Dorukan's headband (both from SOD) then it would be consistent to assume he also still retains the positive energy ring (also from SOD).

However, I think Belkar was just playing with 4E!Belkar's head and has no intention of keeping a stinking and decaying body part, unless you want to argue he still has the heads of Yikyik and Yokyok and assorted harvested goblin kidneys - especially given Belkar has been established as having a strong sense of smell.

Also added to the FAQ, "Note that even though the characters have stated they aren't sure whether this is the same continuity, certain items and abilities have been shown to carry over. We're listing all of it here for the sake of convenience, but any material from (e.g.) SSDT is clearly marked as such so that people can distinguish it from the main online comics."