Class and Level Geekery IX: the thread levels up again!

[Mage Paradox]

Doesn't this comic show Xykon has Create Undead? Since he'd need it to create Ghasts... http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0107.html

[RunicLGB]

Doesn't this comic show Xykon has Create Undead? Since he'd need it to create Ghasts... http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0107.html

Those could have been made by Redcloak or any of the other goblin clerics present.

[Mage Paradox]

You need to be 12th-14th level to create Ghasts. So that leaves Redcloak and Redcloak as options. Was Redcloak even at 12th level back then? I guess he could have been, but I think the list should reflect at least one of Xykon or Redcloak has Create Undead.

Also, doesn't this peg Malak at level 15+ since he created Mummies? I know he used his staff, but assumedly he was the one who empowered the staff? Maybe not on this one I guess...

[RunicLGB]

You need to be 12th-14th level to create Ghasts. So that leaves Redcloak and Redcloak as options. Was Redcloak even at 12th level back then? I guess he could have been, but I think the list should reflect at least one of Xykon or Redcloak has Create Undead.

Also, doesn't this peg Malak at level 15+ since he created Mummies? I know he used his staff, but assumedly he was the one who empowered the staff? Maybe not on this one I guess...

We can't rule out the other goblin clerics, since the oots were in pretty decent mid level standing their foes would have been about the same, so at least a couple other clerics in the building might have been that high. Redcloak certainly was, and since he's a cleric he can memorize it and forget it the next day as needed. I'm not saying Xykon does not have it, but we can't say for sure he does from that strip.

[137beth]

You need to be 12th-14th level to create Ghasts. So that leaves Redcloak and Redcloak as options. Was Redcloak even at 12th level back then?

Yes, he almost certainly was.

Also, could you please explain why create undead is the only possible spell in existence which could ever create ghasts?

[Codyage]

Question about Belkar's Story in the PDF.

Spoiler

Show

Should Belkar have ranks in Perform(Puppetry) or (Ventriloquism) based on what he does near the end of the story? I only ask because we have one for Lord Shojo. However, I can also see the point that the heads aren't actually moving, like Shojo does with the skull, as reasonable reason to not put it up there.

It really comes down to if changing your voice while holding a severed head is a skill or not, and if this has all ready been discussed, I apologize.

[Kurald Galain]

You need to be 12th-14th level to create Ghasts. So that leaves Redcloak and Redcloak as options. Was Redcloak even at 12th level back then? I guess he could have been, but I think the list should reflect at least one of Xykon or Redcloak has Create Undead.

Redcloak does have Create Undead; it's part of the standard cleric list. Since all clerics have access to all spells on the cleric list (within level and alignment restrictions, of course), we don't copy/paste this whole list for every cleric character

[Mage Paradox]

Could you tell me why V being level 15 continues to have the weaker (and chronologically later) evidence? I was under the impression the idea was to list the first evidence of being level 15 (like when he used Power Word Stun), and not arbitrary and weak evidence like a vague offhand remark.

[Kurald Galain]

Could you tell me why V being level 15 continues to have the weaker (and chronologically later) evidence? I was under the impression the idea was to list the first evidence of being level 15 (like when he used Power Word Stun), and not arbitrary and weak evidence like a vague offhand remark.

Because I'm not online 24/7 and haven't had a chance to look into that yet. I should probably put that in the FAQ

[zimmerwald1915]

Could you tell me why V being level 15 continues to have the weaker (and chronologically later) evidence? I was under the impression the idea was to list the first evidence of being level 15 (like when he used Power Word Stun), and not arbitrary and weak evidence like a vague offhand remark.

The Power Word Stun scene is evidence that V is level 15 or greater than level 15. It sets her level floor, but not her ceiling. The Holy Word scene, meanwhile, is good evidence that Z is exactly level 15, because if he were any higher or lower the spell would have affected him differently. In this context, V's comment to Z is good, if circumstantial, evidence that V is also exactly level 15.

[Mage Paradox]

It's weaksauce evidence compared to other stuff on here though.

He is 15+ as far as we know, and should be listed as such (with the appropriate comic link to Power Word Stun).

[Raineh Daze]

If V and Z had their levels linked, I would expect V to be 17th level, not 15th.

'Offhand remark that might make them the same level, possibly' does not seem like evidence of anything.

[SaintRidley]

You need to be 12th-14th level to create Ghasts. So that leaves Redcloak and Redcloak as options. Was Redcloak even at 12th level back then? I guess he could have been, but I think the list should reflect at least one of Xykon or Redcloak has Create Undead.

Also, doesn't this peg Malak at level 15+ since he created Mummies? I know he used his staff, but assumedly he was the one who empowered the staff? Maybe not on this one I guess...

You see the part where it says Cleric next to Redcloak's name? That's where the list reflects that Redcloak has Create Undead.

[Mage Paradox]

I see the part where it doesn't accurately cite for V's caster level is still there.

[137beth]

I see the part where it doesn't accurately cite for V's caster level is still there.

No, it isn't. It cites the evidence of V's exact level. You seem convinced that we should replace it with a citation to a lower bound on V's level.

[Mage Paradox]

Xykon is listed at 21+ only, because it is possible to construct a theory which (although it is absurdly unlikely) could possibly suggest he is only 21, and not 27+. That's the standard this thread is imposing for evidence supposedly, and yet a casual mention by V which hints (but does not in any way affirm) that V and Z are of the same level is supposedly sufficient evidence to prove V is exactly 15? GTFO.

[Living Oxymoron]

Xykon is listed at 21+ only, because it is possible to construct a theory which (although it is absurdly unlikely) could possibly suggest he is only 21, and not 27+. That's the standard this thread is imposing for evidence supposedly, and yet a casual mention by V which hints (but does not in any way affirm) that V and Z are of the same level is supposedly sufficient evidence to prove V is exactly 15? GTFO.

I agree. This evil opposite evidence is so strange that Elan's character level was never modified after we knew that Nale is 15. At least, Elan should be listed as Bard 13/Dashing Swordsman 2, if we follow this method.

And about Xykon's level, I totally agree with you too.

[Mage Paradox]

I agree. This evil opposite evidence is so strange that Elan's character level was never modified after we knew that Nale is 15. At least, Elan should be listed as Bard 13/Dashing Swordsman 2, if we follow this method.

And about Xykon's level, I totally agree with you too.

Yeh, well I would list Xykon as 27+ to be honest, if not 32+ given that he out and out tells us he crafted an item which grants him fire immunity (and which on any sensible interpretation must be an epic item like ring of fire immunity. But then that's me.

But there's some clear examples of people wanting it both ways in this thread. Some people "like" Xykon being listed at 21+, so he is, whereas the same people "like" tying people's levels to arbitrary evil opposites, even though there is poor evidence for it (if any at all in most cases), evidence which is ten times weaker than the evidence Xykon is 27+. You can't have it both ways, either you impose a high bar for including stuff, or you don't.

So what's the standard? Is it "most reasonable interpretation of the evidence" or is it "only when we 100% know"?

[Codyage]

Has V casted spells of over 8th level? No.

Has V casted 8th level spells more than once a day? If yes, he is either level 16+ or has 26-27 INT

V is marked as 23 INT, so it can't be the latter.

Has V done more than one 8th level spell in a day? IF he has, CONGRATS he is level 16+. If not, he is level 15.

What level is Z? 15.

V asks if him and Z are of equal level.

You see, it isn't the idea V and Z are "opposites" its the fact V has never shown of having more than one 8th level spell in a day. We have no reason to believe at all he is higher than 15.

Show me evidence he is higher than 15 please.

Edit: Just think of the whole V and Z thing as just a foot note indicating they are around the same level. Don't take that into consideration, just focus on showing that V has cast two 8th level spells in a day.

[Mage Paradox]

Nobody is arguing V is necessarily higher than 15 yet. He should be listed as 15+. But the proof of his level is his use of the spell Power Word Stun, not "some vague and indecisive remark he makes to Z". If the vague remark is enough to cap V at 15, then why isn't all the evidence of Xykon being 27-32+ enough to have him listed at that level? You can't have it both ways.

[Codyage]

Nobody is arguing V is necessarily higher than 15 yet. He should be listed as 15+. But the proof of his level is his use of the spell Power Word Stun, not "some vague and indecisive remark he makes to Z". If the vague remark is enough to cap V at 15, then why isn't all the evidence of Xykon being 27-32+ enough to have him listed at that level? You can't have it both ways.

I think I understand now.

You are correct, V's proof of level 15 should be Power Word Stun, not the Z'zdtri link. The spell is definite, the conversation is not. Why go for the vague conversation, when we have the spell right in front of us.

However, I think V needs to remain just as "15". We have no reason to think he is higher level than that right now. Similar to how Red Cloak, is only 17.

As for the Xykon bit, I am not familiar with the Epic Rules, so I can't clarify on that.

[Mage Paradox]

Redcloak is different because we literally saw him level up to 17, and enough time hasn't passed for him to be a new level. V is different because we didn't see him level, meaning he could have been level 15 for quite a while before he cast Power Word Stun, and alot of time has passed since then as well (meaning he could have levelled again since). V should be 15+, Redcloak (until more time passes) should be 17.

As for Xykon, the argument is basically a circumstantial one. But what people don't understand is circumstantial evidence is still good evidence. If I go outside one morning and see snow everywhere, the evidence it snowed is cicumstantial, but I can still feel confident that's what happened. In Xykon's case people want to argue that someone planted the snow in my front yard to trick me. I don't know why we'd treat both theories as equally plausible, since it's obvious one theory is almost absurdly unlikely and the other should be applied (based on the standard of evidence used on this thread), but then that's me. Using logic.

[Anteros]

Time passed has absolutely nothing to do with level advancement...

[Mage Paradox]

Time passed has absolutely nothing to do with level advancement...

You know what I meant. V could have gained more exp since then. For all we know V hit level 15 back around 670 (he could have gotten sufficient extra XP from all the stuff that happened after the splice. Since comic 670 quite a long time has passed, and alot of chances to get XP, meaning V could now be level 16.

[Mike Havran]

For all we know V hit level 15 back around 670 (he could have gotten sufficient extra XP from all the stuff that happened after the splice. Since comic 670 quite a long time has passed, and alot of chances to get XP, meaning V could now be level 16.

We don't know this. We know that V didn't use any 8th level spells in fight with ABD, so she was almost certainly not level 15 then. She didn't get any Exp while being spliced, and after that she didn't do anything extraordinary. Unexpected survival against Xykon doesn't probably get more than Heroic Balrog Proximity.

So, the Exp. she got from beetle bandits and purple worm were probably the amount needed to get to 15. Which means she has still a lot more to gain (she did defeat Yukyuk, not so sure about Z)

[137beth]

You know what I meant. V could have gained more exp since then. For all we know V hit level 15 back around 670 (he could have gotten sufficient extra XP from all the stuff that happened after the splice. Since comic 670 quite a long time has passed, and alot of chances to get XP, meaning V could now be level 16.

Note that as a general rule in this thread, we assume characters are the lowest possible level unless there is evidence to the contrary. Xykon is almost certainly level 27+, but we are only certain about him being level 21+. On the other hand, there is no reason to think that V is higher than level 15, so there is no "+" there. This is inherent in any supposed maximum presented on this thread, since any stats can go up at any time.

[Lvl45DM!]

Mage Paradox is making a good point about the linked comic. The statement is "If we are the same level." That means not even V thinks that they are the same level for sure.

[Mage Paradox]

We don't know this. We know that V didn't use any 8th level spells in fight with ABD, so she was almost certainly not level 15 then. She didn't get any Exp while being spliced, and after that she didn't do anything extraordinary. Unexpected survival against Xykon doesn't probably get more than Heroic Balrog Proximity.

So, the Exp. she got from beetle bandits and purple worm were probably the amount needed to get to 15. Which means she has still a lot more to gain (she did defeat Yukyuk, not so sure about Z)

V's level can be calculated to exactly 14 during the ABD fight. But that could be 14, on the cusp of 15 for all we know. The splice "probably" wouldn't give V anyway XP because of hir effective caster level, but that doesn't mean V couldn't gain XP. Given V had lost the (far and away) strongest splice, and was against Xykon (who was far stronger than previously hinted at on panel) it's possible that was a challenge for V. But let's say it wasn't, V then does stuff in the Xykon debacle with O'Chul after with no splice up. Heck, we're in a world where you can get XP for telling a sad story about your childhood... it's entirely possible V gained enough XP from this to bump up to the next level the following D. So for all we know, as of 671, V is level 15.

Meanwhile months have passed since then, with plenty of encounters (including V having a side quest for several days on another plane, where he toppled the corrupt ruler). It's not at all difficult to believe V could be level 16 now. Which is why it should read 15+, because we can peg V at 15... but not be sure V isn't above 15 now.

Meanwhile the evidence for V being "the exact same" as Z is terrible evidence. If people aren't going to treat Xykon's evidence for being 27+ as sufficient, then there is no fricking way that standard can support a "V is capped at level 15" claim.

[Living Oxymoron]

Yeh, well I would list Xykon as 27+ to be honest, if not 32+ given that he out and out tells us he crafted an item which grants him fire immunity (and which on any sensible interpretation must be an epic item like ring of fire immunity. But then that's me.

Well, while I agree he is 27+, I don't think he is 32+. We must keep in mind that the Epic Level Handbook is 3.0, with many rules and features that were not converted to 3.5, even in the SRD, and some spells, like Energy Immunity, did not exist in the time of this book. Energy Immunity for example is a 7th level spell, which can easily be put into a nonepic magic item.

[Mike Havran]

V's level can be calculated to exactly 14 during the ABD fight. But that could be 14, on the cusp of 15 for all we know. The splice "probably" wouldn't give V anyway XP because of hir effective caster level, but that doesn't mean V couldn't gain XP. Given V had lost the (far and away) strongest splice, and was against Xykon (who was far stronger than previously hinted at on panel) it's possible that was a challenge for V. But let's say it wasn't, V then does stuff in the Xykon debacle with O'Chul after with no splice up. Heck, we're in a world where you can get XP for telling a sad story about your childhood... it's entirely possible V gained enough XP from this to bump up to the next level the following D. So for all we know, as of 671, V is level 15.

Meanwhile months have passed since then, with plenty of encounters (including V having a side quest for several days on another plane, where he toppled the corrupt ruler). It's not at all difficult to believe V could be level 16 now. Which is why it should read 15+, because we can peg V at 15... but not be sure V isn't above 15 now.

Meanwhile the evidence for V being "the exact same" as Z is terrible evidence. If people aren't going to treat Xykon's evidence for being 27+ as sufficient, then there is no fricking way that standard can support a "V is capped at level 15" claim.

You are using too many assumptions that have no real support in the comic whatsoever. Yes, V could have been on the verge of 15 when fightnig ABD, but just as likely she could have just got to the 14. Also it's possible that V got some Exp. in Gobbotopia post-splice, but there is also nothing to support it so she may as well got nothing at all. It's certainly not enough to claim V was already 15 when the latest arc started.

From 671, not a single month passed and the encouters that V had post-Gannji were Z, Yukyuk and whatever on the Dressing plane, and possibly a bunch of palace mooks when they were rescuing the slaves.

What is the big deal about the +, anyway? There is not a ton of difference between what can lv15 and lv16 Wizard do, storywise.