Class and Level Geekery IX: the thread levels up again!

[Emanick]

You think Belkar's Wisdom is only slightly below average? Really?

I'm skeptical of how accurately we can use a character's actions to triangulate their ability scores. I would be slow to rule out a RAW explanation, purely if it's the only possible one, if it's the only possible one purely on the basis of a hunch that Belkar's thought process and actions are impossible because of a difference of a couple Wisdom points. I personally would have guessed that Belkar's Wisdom was lower than 9, too, but there's no obvious reason that would be impossible.

[Codyage]

I'm skeptical of how accurately we can use a character's actions to triangulate their ability scores. I would be slow to rule out a RAW explanation, purely if it's the only possible one, if it's the only possible one purely on the basis of a hunch that Belkar's thought process and actions are impossible because of a difference of a couple Wisdom points. I personally would have guessed that Belkar's Wisdom was lower than 9, too, but there's no obvious reason that would be impossible.

Especially if you add it with the Owl's Wisdom idea a page back. 9 seems to be spot on perfect to be negative, but still cast Cure Serious Wounds. I don't think there is a way to judge peoples actions by ability scores to well.

[Fishnet]

Though it hasn't been explicitly stated, I'm thinking we can say Belkar has some ranks in Disguise as well. He gets away with that mustache in Origin of the PCs, then he spends most of his time in Azure City as a "fellow medium-sized creature" (#298), and then he pulls off playing (un)dead (#528). Granted, there's probably some "rule of funny" going on in all these cases, but Belkar's charisma isn't helping him any, and I think we should acknowledge his frequent (successful) use of the skill on his character sheet.

Rank 1+?

[Kurald Galain]

I'm skeptical of how accurately we can use a character's actions to triangulate their ability scores.

We generally can't. For example, there has been a heavy debate last week where someone claimed that V can't possibly have lost his fight with Xykon because of how intelligent V is. Clearly, in the comic, V's supergenius-level of intellect doesn't stop him from acting stupid, even if this seems like a contradiction to some.

If a character is friendly and nice, we cannot conclude that he is good-aligned. Similarly, if a character is compelling and likable, we cannot conclude that he has a high charisma score. The same standard applies: we look at explicit statements and actions that by the rules require a certain alignment/ability; not subjective logic like "Hinjo appears to be good at coordinating his army therefore he has intelligence 14+".

[Mage Paradox]

For example, there has been a heavy debate last week where someone claimed that V can't possibly have lost his fight with Xykon because of how intelligent V is

Nobody claimed that. People like me merely mentioned they found his idiocy to be unsatisfying from a plot perspective. Nobody is saying it's impossible for someone to be stupid.

I don't understand how people say that we don't use ranges... we clearly do, many characters have stats which provide a range. And it should be done for Xykon too. The current info (21+) is not as accurate as it could be. I also don't understand why V is listed as 15 and not 15+. Lots of people have agreed with me that 15+ is more appropriate, and that we have poor evidence for linking V's level to Z's, and yet it persists.

[Emanick]

We generally can't. For example, there has been a heavy debate last week where someone claimed that V can't possibly have lost his fight with Xykon because of how intelligent V is. Clearly, in the comic, V's supergenius-level of intellect doesn't stop him from acting stupid, even if this seems like a contradiction to some.

If a character is friendly and nice, we cannot conclude that he is good-aligned. Similarly, if a character is compelling and likable, we cannot conclude that he has a high charisma score. The same standard applies: we look at explicit statements and actions that by the rules require a certain alignment/ability; not subjective logic like "Hinjo appears to be good at coordinating his army therefore he has intelligence 14+".

In that case, what's stopping us from listing Belkar's Wisdom score at 9? I was under the impression that the only reason why we didn't have it at 9 already was the non-RAW argument that Belkar's Wisdom "seems" lower.

[Shale]

The reason we don't list it at 9 is because the consensus in the past was that he would need a Wisdom of 10 to use the scroll under Owl's Wisdom, which conflicts with the "ability score penalty" line.

[YukiArtolia]

That would entirely depend on whether the Wisdom required would be based on the Ranger spell level of Cure Serious Wounds, or the Cleric spell level. I don't know how that works in terms of scrolls -- is it the user's or the scroll creator's or assumed to be Cleric-based or what? I could have been in error with my earlier statement, but it does seem like the most logical answer...

Also, re: Belkar acting a lot lower Wisdom than he might actually be, consider this from a tabletop campaign perspective. It might not be that Belkar's Wisdom is abysmal so much as the fact that "his player" could be very combat-happy and using the ever-so-slightly-subpar Wisdom as an excuse. The Mark of Justice, the Lord Shojo fever dream sequence during the Blind Pete's basement scene, letting him keep Mr. Scruffy... those all seem like things a DM might do to herd "his player" away from just killing every NPC Belkar runs across and to lead him into character development (which he has had quite a lot of lately).

Also because there's never a reason NOT to link TVTropes, probably relevant to Belkar.

...please don't hurt me...

[Kurald Galain]

The reason we don't list it at 9 is because the consensus in the past was that he would need a Wisdom of 10 to use the scroll under Owl's Wisdom, which conflicts with the "ability score penalty" line.

No, there was no consensus about this, just a decision made seven years ago. That doesn't mean that we can never change it; in this thread we change things all the time if people have a good argument.

That would entirely depend on whether the Wisdom required would be based on the Ranger spell level of Cure Serious Wounds, or the Cleric spell level. I don't know how that works in terms of scrolls

The relevant decisions about a scroll are made by the creator of the scroll, which by RAW is assumed to be a cleric (or druid or wizard, where applicable).

It might not be that Belkar's Wisdom is abysmal so much as the fact that "his player" could be very combat-happy and using the ever-so-slightly-subpar Wisdom as an excuse.

Interesting angle. I suppose that's possible.

[Anteros]

Isn't there a quote somewhere from the Giant that the OOTS don't have players, but are actually real people within the story? Or did I make that up?

[Codyage]

No, there was no consensus about this, just a decision made seven years ago. That doesn't mean that we can never change it; in this thread we change things all the time if people have a good argument.


The relevant decisions about a scroll are made by the creator of the scroll, which by RAW is assumed to be a cleric (or druid or wizard, where applicable).


Interesting angle. I suppose that's possible.

So is there a problem to make Belkar's Wisdom 9? It fits having a penalty, and if it is a cleric scroll, as it was found on Durkon, the +4 from Owl's Wisdom would be enough. Is this enough proof to have Belkar's Wisdom listed as nine?

[Cranica]

I know that this thread is not currently maintained for non-main characters, but in case we want them in the future, #842 gives us a list of spells for the Draketooth clan that bound some of their levels. Sami, who is listed third, can cast Screen (an 8th level sor/wiz spell; while it's a 7th-level Trickery Cleric spell the Draketooths show no signs of being Clerics), which makes him or her at least level 15.

[Mage Paradox]

I wouldn't mind guys like Dorukan being added either. Any information about Epic characters who are crucial to the story is good to know. A decent estimate of his level and spells should be possible.

And the Ancient Black Dragon, just so people can stop asking how powerful she is. And how about Therkla?

[ti'esar]

Isn't Samantha only grandfathered in to begin with?

[Emanick]

I think it could be useful to have a number of character appearances at which point we automatically start listing characters at - 60, for example (the minimum number needed to be in the top tier in the Number of Character Appearances thread). Even if we don't know much about their stats, at least we can list that lack of definite knowledge about story-essential characters.

Thoughts, anyone? I know that most characters who have reached that level of prominence are already covered, and we could make exceptions for other characters deemed worthy of consideration - new Linear Guild members, for example. But it could be a useful baseline in those "fringe" situations where it's genuinely unclear whether a character should be included.

[Mage Paradox]

I don't see why the burden has to be so high as to be 60 appearances. Guys like YikYik, YukYuk and Yokyok, who are the definition of throw away characters, all get a bio... so why not characters of similar or greater importance to the plot (who appear as much or more)- from Dorukan to Enor & Ganji. More information isn't a bad thing, and if other people are willing to put the effort in to write their profiles, it's no skin off your neck.

[Emanick]

I don't see why the burden has to be so high as to be 60 appearances. Guys like YikYik, YukYuk and Yokyok, who are the definition of throw away characters, all get a bio... so why not characters of similar or greater importance to the plot (who appear as much or more)- from Dorukan to Enor & Ganji. More information isn't a bad thing, and if other people are willing to put the effort in to write their profiles, it's no skin off your neck.

Those kobolds only get mentions because they're members of the Linear Guild, though. Yokyok has like 4 appearances, and we can't, of course, admit everyone who appears in the comic four times.

I think the main reason why we don't include characters like Enor and Ganji is that there isn't that much provable information about them, and nobody wants to scroll past a long list of sparse, mostly-empty stat blocks. Characters that we don't know much about should sometimes be mentioned, in my opinion, but only if their absence would leave an obvious void due to their prominence in their story.

But 60 appearances was just an example of where we could set the bar, of course. If others feel as though that's too high a bar, I'd be equally happy with a lower threshold.

[Mage Paradox]

Forget Enor And Ganji for a second. Dorukan is central to the overarching plot, and he has more appearances than some listed people. You could also surmise quite a few things about his stats, owing to the fight he was in. I don't understand why being in the Linear Guild is more worthy of an appearance in the listings than say being one of the order of the scribble. Imagine that that Harry Potter parody had been given a 2 panel membership to the guild before being killed off. Would it have made him worthy of an inclusion too? Obviously not. Meanwhile Dorukan has what, 17 appearances including in extras, is central to the overarching plot, and could have a detailed bio done on him, but he is snubbed in favour of a bunch of Kobolds who we know next to nothing about and who turned up for less strips...

[137beth]

And the Ancient Black Dragon, just so people can stop asking how powerful she is. And how about Therkla?

Is there any reason you are suggesting this other than to fuel your obsession with a hypothetical match between Xykon and the (dead) ancient black dragon, even though Xykon could beat soul-spliced V and soul-spliced V could be the dragon, and the dragon is dead?
The only thing we know about the dragon is that it can cast spells that unmodified creatures of its kind can't. We have virtually no idea why it can cast more powerful spells, just that it can. There's really nothing else to list.

I think it could be useful to have a number of character appearances at which point we automatically start listing characters at - 60, for example (the minimum number needed to be in the top tier in the Number of Character Appearances thread). Even if we don't know much about their stats, at least we can list that lack of definite knowledge about story-essential characters.

Sounds reasonable.

I wouldn't mind guys like Dorukan being added either. Any information about Epic characters who are crucial to the story is good to know. A decent estimate of his level and spells should be possible.

Do we even know if Dorukan was epic?

Forget Enor And Ganji for a second. Dorukan is central to the overarching plot, and he has more appearances than some listed people. You could also surmise quite a few things about his stats, owing to the fight he was in. I don't understand why being in the Linear Guild is more worthy of an appearance in the listings than say being one of the order of the scribble. Imagine that that Harry Potter parody had been given a 2 panel membership to the guild before being killed off. Would it have made him worthy of an inclusion too? Obviously not.

Yes, it obviously would, because all linear guild members get included.

Meanwhile Dorukan has what, 17 appearances including in extras, is central to the overarching plot, and could have a detailed bio done on him, but he is snubbed in favour of a bunch of Kobolds who we know next to nothing about and who turned up for less strips...

Dorukan has only 4 appearances, less than the kobolds.

[Emanick]

Do we even know if Dorukan was epic?

He would have had to be, in order to cast Cloister.

[Mage Paradox]

I'm not sure why you posted the above. Dorukan has 17 appearances, and yet you quote me saying that and say "he has 4".

And yes, we know alot about him from SoD. He's need Epic crafting feats to make the Gates, among other things. A quite detailed profile of him could be statted out. Much moreso than the random Kobold's we keep including.

[Mage Paradox]

Someone with a better knowledge of energy drain (and how it affects fighters) than me will need to cover this one, but does 886 suggest Roy is level 14? We know he needed to get an extra level in order to use the feat his grand father taught him, and after being energy drained he's still able to pull it off. I know it's in his mind, but clearly he thinks he would still be able to pull it off minus a level.

[137beth]

I'm not sure why you posted the above. Dorukan has 17 appearances, and yet you quote me saying that and say "he has 4".

I said that he has only 4 appearances because that's how many he has. Learn to count.
And even if for some weird reason we count all of Dorukon's appearances in bonus content as main appearances, that still only makes him an infrequent character. For that matter, Yikyik has 17 appearances without bonus content, and yet you seem to think that kobolds aren't worth listing.

Also, we really don't have that much info on him. We've seen some spells that he's cast. That's (almost) it.

[Mage Paradox]

I said that he has only 4 appearances because that's how many he has. Learn to count.
And even if for some weird reason we count all of Dorukon's appearances in bonus content as main appearances, that still only makes him an infrequent character. For that matter, Yikyik has 17 appearances without bonus content, and yet you seem to think that kobolds aren't worth listing.

Also, we really don't have that much info on him. We've seen some spells that he's cast. That's (almost) it.

{SCRUBBED} Dorukan has 17 appearances with bonus content like SoD. I've said that 3 times now, I'm not sure what part of it you're struggling with, or why you continually repeat "he has 4 appearances". The Kobold's are throw away characters, literally, one of them having a mere 4 appearances. There is virtually no info on them. In contrast we know alot about Dorukan's life because he is a pivotal character in regards to the overarching plot. Arcane users are also much easier to stat than Rogue Kobolds, so we could easily put together a good stat sheet on him. Your objections don't hold up.

[Dain]

I agree with Mage Paradox. It seems that Roy is now able to use the special move he learned in the afterlife, so he must be at least level 14 because he needed to spend a feat to adquire this move. Also this special move should be listed in his profile.

Drain energy makes the target gain 2D4 levels so Roy has to be at least at level 16 to be able to use the move even after being affected by that spell.

But I would wait to the next strip,

Spoiler

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because it seems strange that belkar shows whirly eyes after the "X" eyes. As it seems an illusion then only the level 14 may be assured

[Mike Havran]

Guys, I think it was pretty clear that most of the strip #886 was an illusion. A dream. Anything can happen in a dream. There's no way how anything solid about the characters can be obtained, because they were dreaming and their actions didn't have to have any base in the mechanics.

[Alaris]

I agree with Mage Paradox. It seems that Roy is now able to use the special move he learned in the afterlife, so he must be at least level 14 because he needed to spend a feat to adquire this move. Also this special move should be listed in his profile.

Drain energy makes the target gain 2D4 levels so Roy has to be at least at level 16 to be able to use the move even after being affected by that spell.

But I would wait to the next strip,

Spoiler

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because it seems strange that belkar shows whirly eyes after the "X" eyes.

Negative Levels from Energy Drain do not actually cause you to 'lose levels.' You simply take stat penalties, PER Negative Level.:

• -1 on all skill checks and ability checks.
• -1 on attack rolls and saving throws.
• -5 hit points.
• -1 effective level (whenever the creature’s level is used in a die roll or calculation, reduce it by one for each negative level).
• If the victim casts spells, she loses access to one spell as if she had cast her highest-level, currently available spell. (If she has more than one spell at her highest level, she chooses which she loses.) In addition, when she next prepares spells or regains spell slots, she gets one less spell slot at her highest spell level.

Thus, he would retain the feat, presuming this was real, and not just an illusion. And it was an illusion...

[SinsI]

Shall we add Mage Slayer feat and 2 ranks in Spellcraft for Roy?
It does to casters exactly what #886 depicts...

[Morty]

I agree that the newest strip isn't conclusive evidence that Roy can use this feat now. It's an illusion, so he may have imagined being able to do it even though he can't do it in reality.

[ti'esar]

Guys, I think it was pretty clear that most of the strip #886 was an illusion. A dream. Anything can happen in a dream. There's no way how anything solid about the characters can be obtained, because they were dreaming and their actions didn't have to have any base in the mechanics.

I'm inclined to agree with this, especially since I think what we were seeing was effectively Roy's personal fantasy.