Fairy Tail II: Second Generation Thread Slayers

[Drolyt]

I'm really disappointed in the lack of any tension and such in Fairy Tail too at the moment.

I love how basically everyone has finally arrived at the same conclusion I made weeks and weeks ago when Gray pulled off victory against... what was his name? Rufus something? He turned out to be so unimportant... anyways, I just wanted to reiterate that I was saying this months ago but nobody listened. I think the problem is less that Fairy Tail always wins, but how they've been winning. They aren't on the verge of defeat, pulling off some clever tactic or exploiting some new found weakness, they just say "power of friendship yeah lol" or "young people are awesome, at least if they are wizards in Fairy Tail* hah" and then they win for no reason.

*Seriously, they can talk about how believing in yourself and your friends and all that other crap all they want, but it only works if you are in Fairy Tail. Erza took on a whole cult when she was just a kid, but none of the other kids (tortured and enslaved kids mind you) could do that. Why? Was their trust in their friends not strong enough? Did they not try hard enough? No, it is just that Erza is a freak and sometimes it annoys me when Fairy Tail doesn't acknowledge that, because in the real world sometimes it doesn't matter how hard you try.

[LaZodiac]

Yup! Drolyt's got it figured out.

It almost, ALMOST got good, when Natsu just tried to fight Gildartz and just lost, completely and utterly, because sometimes "friendship power" can't beat pure skill and strength.

Now we've got Laxus taking out an entire enemy team without any effort, beating a MAGE SAINT with one punch, Natsu and Gajeel defeating two Third Level Dragon Slayers without any effort, Erza continuing to be Erza. It's friggen PANTS is what it is.

[lord_khaine]

It almost, ALMOST got good, when Natsu just tried to fight Gildartz and just lost, completely and utterly, because sometimes "friendship power" can't beat pure skill and strength.

And it got really good later on when Natsu defeated the GodSlayer though the real power of friendship, namely having an actual friend (Makarov), to step in and risk his life for you.

Or when later on Hades was only defeated though the forethought of sending out the cats on a sabotage mission, before everyone else went ahead and got their ass kicked.

Regarding the current arc, then i belive i have ranted about that since Natsu defeated Sting and Rogue, but it makes me sad to see people starting to agree with me, instead of the other way around

[Kato]

I love how basically everyone has finally arrived at the same conclusion I made weeks and weeks ago when Gray pulled off victory against... what was his name? Rufus something? He turned out to be so unimportant... anyways, I just wanted to reiterate that I was saying this months ago but nobody listened.

So you were early fed up with something others were still ready to tolerate. This makes you less patient. Congratulations?

*Seriously, they can talk about how believing in yourself and your friends and all that other crap all they want, but it only works if you are in Fairy Tail. Erza took on a whole cult when she was just a kid, but none of the other kids (tortured and enslaved kids mind you) could do that. Why? Was their trust in their friends not strong enough? Did they not try hard enough? No, it is just that Erza is a freak and sometimes it annoys me when Fairy Tail doesn't acknowledge that, because in the real world sometimes it doesn't matter how hard you try.

Now we've got Laxus taking out an entire enemy team without any effort, beating a MAGE SAINT with one punch, Natsu and Gajeel defeating two Third Level Dragon Slayers without any effort, Erza continuing to be Erza. It's friggen PANTS is what it is.

Have they ever not acknowledged the fact that Erza is a monster? Even people in Fairy Tail keep saying it and it's not like every fight is won, just because they are in Fairy Tail. Lucy lost all her fight, Wendy barely made a tie, Elfman lost with a lot of damage. But on the other hand... FT is full of monsters. Laxus, Erza, to a smaller degree Gray, Gajeel and Natsu. And so on. It's not like they are all on the same scale. If they didn't send their best, if they send Levy and Macao and Romeo etc they surely wouldn't win but this is a tournament for the elite.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying FT's lack of proper power scales or continued use of "power of friendship" and so on is super great or anything... but a) this has been the theme for pretty much ever and it hasn't really gotten worse over the last arcs (there have merely been occasions when one battle or another wasn't subject to it) and if you only now realize it... uhm... I'd rather not say anything rude.
And b) ... it's Shounen. Okay, I'd be lying if I said I don't prefer it when a battle is won with reason instead of haxx but FT really stopped that quite a while ago. Yeah, once in a while a fight is won through tactics but it's power vs power most of the time and if you don't want to see this, why are you still reading...?
(and I think we had this a while ago but c) this is fiction. The claim "this does not work in reality" is not a proper claim if the show never tried to be realistic)

[LaZodiac]

What's bothersome is that we don't really have any indication that Erza is ACTUALLY skilled at magic, since all of her powers are based around her armor. It'd be nice to atleast be told "hey, Erza's magic clothing isn't just equipment she bought to make her powerful, she had to make it with her own magic and it's powerful not because it's just powerful, but because she's fueling it".

I also just don't like that Erza's totally going to win despite the fact that the spatial magic lady who's name I keep on forgetting TOTALLY SHOULD WIN. She played them againest each other perfectly.

[Forum Explorer]

Hm... while, yes, the constant winning streak is pretty bland... I can't say it bothers me that much. It's the tone of the show, and I've gotten used to it. Other Shonen aren't doing it that different. Okay, OP has had their losses at times, sometimes major, sometimes minor, and Naruto just has a higher death count, but other popular Shonen go on without great losses.
I'm not saying it would hurt FT to make some changes but I know what to expect and I just don't read it to be tensed.. In nine out of ten... nah, ninty-nine out of a hundred stories the good guys win in the end. You can try to hide it but in the end we know it's true and that's what we expect.

A good story lies to us. It creates a beautiful dream where we start to think from the perspective of the characters. Their triumphs become ours and we fear for their success even though we know that they can't truly fail at that point.

Shonen struggle with this generally and I often get bored and carry on through sheer inertia.

OP hasn't done this yet, but I'm not that far in.

Bleach suffers from this. I'm incredibly bored anytime Ichigo is on screen. I only carry on because every other character is interesting and has a very real chance of failure.

Fairy Tail basically has every character succeed all of the time. They don't win via clever tactics or displays of skill but from just basically going "No I win!"

[Kato]

What's bothersome is that we don't really have any indication that Erza is ACTUALLY skilled at magic, since all of her powers are based around her armor. It'd be nice to atleast be told "hey, Erza's magic clothing isn't just equipment she bought to make her powerful, she had to make it with her own magic and it's powerful not because it's just powerful, but because she's fueling it".

I also just don't like that Erza's totally going to win despite the fact that the spatial magic lady who's name I keep on forgetting TOTALLY SHOULD WIN. She played them againest each other perfectly.

Well, we do know Erza is also just a very powerful person. She has been shown to carry huge things and she is smart - at least when it comes to battle - and has great stamina. I'm not sure if it would make her better if she had to have made her armor herself.. While it would maybe put a bit more emphasis on her strategic side I don't think it would make that much of a difference. I'd wager with the armor it's really much more a matter of who uses it, though this would require an actual battle between Requip mages to prove that. (Well, they kind of did it in the movie, but...) Erza is for the most part a swordswoman (and other weapons) and uses Requip to further her range.

I'm not saying it would be bad if she lost. No, apart from the fact that I wish Minerva (great, now I had to look her up as well. Even though her name is rather easy to remember) to suffer more than probably any other character in the story at this point, and that she might kill Erza if she doesn't get back up, she should totally win this at this point. But I will neither be surprised, nor angry, nor anything else if she doesn't, because this is Fairy Tail and I'm not going to complain what a terrible story it is when it's no change to the tone or in another way something that goes against what I expect from the manga.


(I'm sorry if I'm getting obnoxious about this but FT really gets me all fired up and passionate to defend it. )

edit;
Oh gosh, I can't stop. But I have to go to bed so that'll be the last for today from me.

A good story lies to us. It creates a beautiful dream where we start to think from the perspective of the characters. Their triumphs become ours and we fear for their success even though we know that they can't truly fail at that point.

Shonen struggle with this generally and I often get bored and carry on through sheer inertia.

[...]

Fairy Tail basically has every character succeed all of the time. They don't win via clever tactics or displays of skill but from just basically going "No I win!"

Well, I guess everyone who is familiar with Shonen knows this - but it's also a rather general problem in most other media. Different shonen have used/tried different ways around it... DB or Naruto have an above average death count, so we are left to fear whether a character will die - though DB cheapens it with the titular Dragonballs - and One Piece at least once in a while had the heroes suffer a defeat of sorts (but FT also does this, rarely, and in the end the heroes come out on top with few exceptions. One could try to list the failures but I don't think it's necessary)

First off, not every character can win all the time. If anything, the FT members can, but even then it's not 100% true (only, like, 99%)
While it weakens my earlier point of (FT battles being always win by "power of friendship" so one should not be surprised/angry about it 300+ chapters into the story) there have been occasions when this does not hold true and battles were won by strategy, e.g. the first real arc Natsu beat the wind mage by weakening his power due to creating a low pressure area with his flames, or Gray against Ultear by freezing his blood which is living tissue and as such unaffected by her time magic (even though it could effect plants which is just stupid but whatever) (Also, I still stand by my argument that Gray's victory against Rufus by creating items so detailed and complex he couldn't copy them was victory by tactics not power)


Oh god, I'm shutting up now. It's fine, you don't need to be happy with everything, it's not like I don't see the problems at some points, it's just this show makes me want to defend it where I can.

[Drolyt]

So you were early fed up with something others were still ready to tolerate. This makes you less patient. Congratulations?

That... is a very strange take on what I said. I mean, why in the world should I be patient with a work of fiction? If it isn't engaging, that is by definition a flaw. I don't want to spend too much time discussing it, I mean I spend maybe an hour every week reading manga and comics, so I'm not going to spend too much time debating it, but I really am confused by your reaction.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying FT's lack of proper power scales or continued use of "power of friendship" and so on is super great or anything... but a) this has been the theme for pretty much ever and it hasn't really gotten worse over the last arcs (there have merely been occasions when one battle or another wasn't subject to it) and if you only now realize it... uhm... I'd rather not say anything rude.
And b) ... it's Shounen. Okay, I'd be lying if I said I don't prefer it when a battle is won with reason instead of haxx but FT really stopped that quite a while ago. Yeah, once in a while a fight is won through tactics but it's power vs power most of the time and if you don't want to see this, why are you still reading...?
(and I think we had this a while ago but c) this is fiction. The claim "this does not work in reality" is not a proper claim if the show never tried to be realistic)

I don't really see how any of this deflects the criticism? a) just means the problem has been around for a while, b) is just saying that I shouldn't expect anything better which doesn't mean there isn't a problem, and c) is... nonsense, really. Of course we expect fiction to be like reality. Sure some specific stuff might be changed, like we have magic, but that is for a purpose (we like reading about magic), it isn't good storytelling to throw logic out the window, unless it is some surreal comedy where that is the point. A good story of Fairy Tail's general type immerses us in the world, yeah some stuff may not be like our world but it has to feel like a world that could exist. Right now Fairy Tail doesn't feel that way, it feels like what happens could only possible happen with mangaka intervention, and that feels fake and unnatural and isn't fun.

As for why I still read it, come on, it takes about a minute a week out of my time. It isn't yet so horrible that I can't spare such a miniscule amount of free time, often squeezed into what you might call dead times where I've got a few unproductive minutes to waste anyways but can't start anything substantial. Really typing this out is more of a waste of my time than reading Fairy Tail, I'm not even sure why I'm bothering. You might ask why I'm still reading, but I can turn the question back: why do you take it so personally? I'm not the one emotionally invested in a young boys (that is literally the meaning of shonen) comic book, but I am (very) slightly annoyed by your passive aggressive posts.

[Kato]

That... is a very strange take on what I said. I mean, why in the world should I be patient with a work of fiction? If it isn't engaging, that is by definition a flaw. I don't want to spend too much time discussing it, I mean I spend maybe an hour every week reading manga and comics, so I'm not going to spend too much time debating it, but I really am confused by your reaction.

Okay, I'll be honest: It seemed to me like you expected to be praised for pointing out things we were aware about yet didn't feel were so bad it ruined the story for us. (Well, I guess the others also were aware of it and it's not the ruining the story for me yet)

I don't really see how any of this deflects the criticism? a) just means the problem has been around for a while, b) is just saying that I shouldn't expect anything better which doesn't mean there isn't a problem, and c) is... nonsense, really. Of course we expect fiction to be like reality.

Okay, to kind of summarize it... it's the theme of the story. It's three hundred chapters in and you complain about things that were pretty much present from the beginning? It's like watching three hundred episodes of Dragonball and then complaining "they solve all their problems with violence" or watching the 500th episode of Pokemon and complaining how the story never really progresses.

Things for the most part have always been that way (and the major difference to other Shounen is FT takes itself quite a bit less serious, or that's how it is from my point of view) It's no surreal comedy, but it's not to be taken as serious as you seem to take it. And it's been like this for a long time, so why do you start complaining only in the recent arc? I'm not trying to forbid you from reading or anything but if you are so dissatisfied with the story/tone I don't see why you do not read something that suits your taste better and instead complain about things I don't see the point in complaining at this point.

Again, don't get me wrong. I'm aware this is present in the story, but it has been if not always then for most of the run and now it feels like "oh, the manga os getting worse and worse, it's terrible".


Sorry, I didn't mean to come off as passive aggressive (apart from the first bit because I read it more as a smug "see, I told you weeks ago it's bad" than intended by you (I guess). It just rubbed me the wrong way and I felt I had to poke back a bit.)
Everything else is merely supposed to defend the story on the basis that it is what it has always been and unless something changes in the tone of the story I don't see the point in complaining about it at this point. Of course you can feel free to disagree with me. I'm just discussing (and probably going a bit overborad at times. I try not to but fail more often than not.)
(If you just started, read fifty chapters and got here to say "You know guys, I don't like FT because XYZ but you have fun with it" I would have probably totally ignored it.)

[Drolyt]

Again, don't get me wrong. I'm aware this is present in the story, but it has been if not always then for most of the run and now it feels like "oh, the manga os getting worse and worse, it's terrible".

I guess this is our greatest point of disagreement. The manga showed hints of this throughout, but it didn't really go bad until the end of the Tenrou Island arc when Makarov was going to sacrifice himself but then the mangaka decided "wait, no, nobody dies in Fairy Tail" thus sucking huge amounts of tension out of Fairy Tail. Remember that up until that point most fights were real struggles, hell Hades was only defeated because the cats found his heart. But now? Nobody stands a chance against Fairy Tail. The third generation dragon slayers were defeated way too easily, the freaking guild master of Sabertooth went down like he was nothing, the other Sabers sucked pretty bad too, the entire anti-Fairy team of Raven Tail lost in five seconds flat, one of the ten whatsits who was built up like some kind of monster could hardly stand against Laxus, I could go on, but I think I've made my point. The story is falling apart, but we can still hope that the next arc will help things.

[LaZodiac]

My one last bit of hope is that the next time the Apocolypse Dragon shows up, they hold hands and chant "We believe in the power of friendship" again, and the Apocolypse Dragon interrupts them with a death laser because he's taking none of that crap.

[Soras Teva Gee]

[aizen]Since when were you under then impression this wasn't your typical shonen manga?[/aizen]

[Felyndiira]

I wonder what would happen if Eiichiro Oda somehow takes over Fairy Tail at this point.

[lord_khaine]

I wonder what would happen if Eiichiro Oda somehow takes over Fairy Tail at this point.

He would take one look at the serie so far, and then let allmost every singel member of FT get beaten up at some point in the following arc, Natsu after being all fired up, and Erza after talking about how she cant lose.

At the same time, Markarov would die a heroic death for real this time, and Laxus would proberly need to either die as well, or get crippled in some way.

How he would do this i dont know, maybe though the introduction of another kingdom, or maybe though dragons

[Drolyt]

He would take one look at the serie so far, and then let allmost every singel member of FT get beaten up at some point in the following arc, Natsu after being all fired up, and Erza after talking about how she cant lose.

At the same time, Markarov would die a heroic death for real this time, and Laxus would proberly need to either die as well, or get crippled in some way.

How he would do this i dont know, maybe though the introduction of another kingdom, or maybe though dragons

I agree with everything except Laxus dying or getting crippled. Although he worked much better when he wasn't a part of the main group.

[Anteros]

I love how basically everyone has finally arrived at the same conclusion I made weeks and weeks ago when Gray pulled off victory against... what was his name? Rufus something? He turned out to be so unimportant... anyways, I just wanted to reiterate that I was saying this months ago but nobody listened. I think the problem is less that Fairy Tail always wins, but how they've been winning. They aren't on the verge of defeat, pulling off some clever tactic or exploiting some new found weakness, they just say "power of friendship yeah lol" or "young people are awesome, at least if they are wizards in Fairy Tail* hah" and then they win for no reason.

*Seriously, they can talk about how believing in yourself and your friends and all that other crap all they want, but it only works if you are in Fairy Tail. Erza took on a whole cult when she was just a kid, but none of the other kids (tortured and enslaved kids mind you) could do that. Why? Was their trust in their friends not strong enough? Did they not try hard enough? No, it is just that Erza is a freak and sometimes it annoys me when Fairy Tail doesn't acknowledge that, because in the real world sometimes it doesn't matter how hard you try.

Well the Gray-Rufus fight is where I personally decided to take a break from FT for a while to see if it got better. So far it's continuing its downward spiral.

The thing is, it used to just be Natsu who would win through the "power of friendship." That's actually ok...because getting more powerful based on emotion is actually a part of his powerset, and he's way more emotional than the other dragonslayers, so it makes sense he would get the most benefit from it. Gray was always powerful, but he would actually have to use tactics in his fights, and Erza was always broken, but the author was careful to not overuse her.

Recently it seems like the author just decided to give Natsu's powerset to everyone. Every fight follows the exact same formula, and it's simply boring. It's also made worse that every single protagonist received a major power-up that they didn't even really have to work for.

I'm fine with the protagonists winning, but they have to at least suffer setbacks at times or it gets boring. They also can't just win every single fight in the exact same way. That's boring too. Even most other Shonen are better about it than Fairy Tail has been recently. Someone cited Bleach and Dragonball earlier...but actually look at those series. Goku died at least twice during the series, maybe more. I'm fairly certain every major character died at least once, and while it may not have been permanent, it at least took them out of commission for a long time each time and felt like a real setback. Aizen destroyed Ichigo's ultimate attack with one finger. Things like that help keep the tension going and the fights interesting.

[LaZodiac]

Everything you said is right except for the tension in Bleach. If I recall that happened during the Diacide (spelling error, sorry) set of chapters, which was ungodly boring. But everything else, perfectly correct.

[Anteros]

Actually, it happened at the end of the soul society rescue arc...which is generally considered the best arc in the series at least in part because of that.

I agree that Bleach got boring during the Deicide arc though.

[Forum Explorer]

I don't think I'm at the Deicide arc yet. So it's only boring when the episode is focused on Ichigo.

[lord_khaine]

I agree with everything except Laxus dying or getting crippled. Although he worked much better when he wasn't a part of the main group.

Well, the logic behind that is that he has grown to powerfull, at this point he might very well be the strongest human wizard, and so he needs to be drawn back to the sideline again, and be given a reason for staying there.

Else, i cant help but wonder if there has been a change in editor or something, from the recent and drastic drop in quality?

[Cen]

, at this point he might very well be the strongest human wizard,

and what about Gildarts? The biggest problem I have with Laxus now is that he is portrayed as strongest human wizard, but we all know that there are much stronger people there (Gildarts, Makarov, Erza for example). Fairy Tail seems now like being full of unfired worf effects :/

And yeah, Makarov should have died when he had a chance to be a martyr. Now reading FT feels like reading DD - no tension at all because it has been proven many times that author likes his characters too much to harm them.

anyways - do we know what kind of creature is Mavis? with her weird ears and superb magic?

[Soras Teva Gee]

Mavis is a fairy of course. Well the one were seeing is more the projected image of a fairy that reminds me more of a certain loli super vampire but I digress

And I continue to be vaguely amused by all of this. I'm sorry but did not this manga always have Fairy Tail on top from the get go? This whole tournament has merely been the return to the natural order of things.

I seriously do not see what all the moaning is about.

Also Laxus has always been seriously powerful too, he's clearly showing that having worked out his parental issues he can now show off his true potential. Which if him as a basket case was already S-class then him anywhere up from there is Gildarts and Markarov. Probably because he's going to become the Guild Master sometime before the end of it all.

[lord_khaine]

and what about Gildarts? The biggest problem I have with Laxus now is that he is portrayed as strongest human wizard, but we all know that there are much stronger people there (Gildarts, Makarov, Erza for example). Fairy Tail seems now like being full of unfired worf effects :/

I dont really think Erza belong on that list tbh, because Makarov and Gildarts is both a step above the power level she is on.

And for that matter, Laxus might very well be the strongest human wizard at this point, since the evidence we have of Gildarts being the strongest is pretty old, while the evidence of Laxus having gained a lot of power since his banishment is quite recent.

[Kato]

New chapter

Spoiler

Show

Uhm... well, that's the finale then!

Fairy Tail scoes a perfect win because Sting is a ***** who won't even fight for his friend because his instinct tells him not to. Oh, and Erza wins because... super special armor that pierces space?!

You may start complaining now

[Soras Teva Gee]

So best chapter yet or best chapter yet?

(your tears I drink them up)

[DiscipleofBob]

You may start complaining now

What's there to complain about?

So all members of Fairy Tail can use Haki. So what?

[LaZodiac]

Chapter Spoilers As If Anyone Actually Cares:

Spoiler

Show

Leon's getting advice from Sakurai! You must recover!

I can SORT OF accept Juvia and Gray winning. They were sorta equally matched againest Lyon and Chelia, and although it's kinda stupid that Chelia zoned out because Lyon asked for her help, it does make some sort of sense.

...I don't get the Lou Housetia stuff Minerva is saying. Someone get Something in here with the raws to explain.

...............

...............................

.................................................. ............

ERZA'S ARMOR LITERALLY "BREAKS THE RULES OF MAGIC AND HAS AN INVINCIBLE SWORD"

THAT IS SO CONVIANANT, IT'S A GOOD THING SHE'S ALWAYS HAD THIS,

This is why people complain about Erza Bullcrap. Her magic is all item based, she always ALWAYS wins no matter WHAT, she always has just the armor needed to win (in this case literally an invincible suit of armor) and it's always incredibly stupid.

And then Fairy Tail wins because Lector pusses out.

Glad to see I was right, and the sign of the apocolypse was Fairy Tail pulling out a bullcrap win of the entire tournament. Atleast there is some sense.

[lord_khaine]

AARRRRGGGGG

I though the bottom had finaly been reached, who is the complete bastard that send the author a shovel

[Macros]

[aizen]Since when were you under then impression this wasn't your typical shonen manga?[/aizen]

This.

I was introduced to the thing by a friend who told me something akin the lines of "it manages to subvert nearly every shonen cliché !". I'm now seriously questionning his judgement on those sorts of things. It was okay at the beginning, the Oracion Seis arc managed to put some tension in it, the Terou Island was a hughe letdown, and now... Did anyone laugh when princess whatsername told that Lucy from the future predicted a "totally shocking victor on the tournament ! No, seriously, no one could have seen that coming !". Sigh. No wonder every decent mage is in Fairy Tail, if you have any sense of pattern recognition, you'll do that too.

[Forum Explorer]

So best chapter yet or best chapter yet?

(your tears I drink them up)

What tears? This is exactly what we were all expecting.