The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

[MLai]

To that end, I figured that the canonical account of Covenant troops in the games is either them on Normal mode (seeing as how that is, well normal), or them on Hard Mode (which is basically like the Covenant are all having a really good day). Since Easy Mode is more like the Covenant are having a really bad day and are substantially weaker in raw capacities, I'd say it's fair to assume that the Covenant across the board are somewhere between Normal Mode and Hard Mode, representing that everyone occasionally has good days or bad.

No, I agree with previous posters: If you want to base canon Covenant strength on the FPS games, you have to use Legendary difficulty.

See the difficulty grading as a measure of the player. If you're a "normal" soldier, that's the difficulty for you. Master Chief wasn't normal. He was legendary. So his canon adventure is from Legendary.

[The Glyphstone]

I'd vote for Heroic over Legendary myself - even by the skill of the player, Master Chief could also be considered a Hero, and the idea of Legendary becomes 'Harder Than Master Chief Had To Do It'. That, and someone previously mentioned that on Legendary a Brute can take multiple sniper rifle shots to the head; even giving them Feel No Pain, that's a bit excessive, since FNP doesn't extend to instant-kills.


For the prototype army list - I'm not sure about the weaponry - plasma rifles might deserve to be a bit stronger, for one thing, but the organization chart looks good. The only change I'd make is that if you take a Brute Chieftan/Elite Zealot, it makes their opposing number a 0-1 choice, and allows you the option to take their respective type as either Elite or Troops, so you're not required to stuff your Elite slots full of Sniper teams. Having a Prophet in charge lets you mix-and-match them, but all Elite slots; that seems to get across the feel of how they'll avoid working together as much as possible unless a Prophet makes them.

[ChaosLord29]

What the heck is Hard Mode? There's Heroic and Legendary, both of which count as Hard Mode.
I personally think of Heroic as the most "accurate" difficulty, though trying to shoehorn the books into an artificial difficulty level feels rather silly. In the books, the weapons are treated as much more lethal than they are in the game, because frankly, bullets and superheated plasma bolts are a lot more lethal than portrayed in the games.

Heroic, excuse me, and yes I agree that it should be the most accurate because it's designed to challenge players and give them the real possibility of defeat (if they make a bad decision or just wind up unlucky).

Legendary Mode is designed to kill the player more times than not. I mean c'mon, the canon is that Master Chief goes through all the adventures of Halo 1, 2 and 3 without ever having to reload from a checkpoint or old save (read as: "Dying"). Now, I've known some people who claim to have beaten the game on Legendary without dying and I'm sure you can find a youtube of it somewhere, but beating all 3 games without dying once (at least, as Master Chief)? I'm not saying it's impossible statistically given the number of people who play Halo and how often, but I am saying it's impossible to do practically, since no matter how good you are, it would still take more than a little luck to beat all 3 games doing so.

John- 117 is described as lucky (or as I like to think of it, Fateful), and thus I'm willing to buy that a lucky player (representing John) could beat Halo 1, 2, and 3 on Heroic without dying. To do that on Legendary mode requires more than just one lucky person, it requires statistically significant figures.

I'd vote for Heroic over Legendary myself - even by the skill of the player, Master Chief could also be considered a Hero, and the idea of Legendary becomes 'Harder Than Master Chief Had To Do It'. That, and someone previously mentioned that on Legendary a Brute can take multiple sniper rifle shots to the head; even giving them Feel No Pain, that's a bit excessive, since FNP doesn't extend to instant-kills.

Heartily Seconded, Legendary mode surpasses what realistic even by Halo's own standards.

For the prototype army list - I'm not sure about the weaponry - plasma rifles might deserve to be a bit stronger, for one thing, but the organization chart looks good. The only change I'd make is that if you take a Brute Chieftan/Elite Zealot, it makes their opposing number a 0-1 choice, and allows you the option to take their respective type as either Elite or Troops, so you're not required to stuff your Elite slots full of Sniper teams. Having a Prophet in charge lets you mix-and-match them, but all Elite slots; that seems to get across the feel of how they'll avoid working together as much as possible unless a Prophet makes them.

I'm not quite sure what you mean. The default is to have both Brutes and Elites as Elite choices, and taking a Prophet doesn't change that. If you pick a Brute Chieftain, then Elites are still available as an Elite choice, and vice versa for the Zealot.

Are you saying that if you choose a Chieftain you should still be able to field a Zealot as another slot?

Oh, I see. Yeah I should clarify that if you choose a the Sangheili or Jiralanae their respective underlings can be taken as Troops or Elites, not just troops.

I know the plasma weaponry seems weak (especially compared to 40k) but I just don't see a justification for making the standard Plasma Rifle (or even the Carbine) stronger, given the number of shots it takes with them to injure a Spartan and the relative ease with which they mow down regular UNSC Marines.

[ChaosLord29]

Master Chief Petty Officer John-117

{table=head]WS|BS|S |T |W |I |A |LD|Sv
5|6|4|4|3|5|2|10|3+
[/table]
Wargear:
MA5b Assault Rifle
M6C Pistol
Close Combat Weapon
Plasma Grenades
Frag Grenades
Energy Shields (Allow re-roll of one failed save per round)

Special Rules:
Independent Character
Eternal Warrior
Favored Enemy: Covenant
Fearless
Just Lucky I Guess- 4+ Invulnerable save, Master Chief can take his Invulnerable Save against all wounds for which he fails his regular armor save.
The Demon- Any covenant who suffer casualties from Master Chief's ranged or close combat attacks suffer -1 on all morale checks for the remainder of the round.

I don't think I'd like to go so far as to create a list for the UNSC but I was just feeling a little bored and thought I'd see what you guys thought of my attempt at portraying Halo's very own Man with No Name.

[Tavar]

Pretty sure that the word of Bungie is that Heroic is meant to be about what 'real life' would be.

[Triscuitable]

You mean no face? Because he has a face, too: gaunt, cut short, blond, fair features.

[ChaosLord29]

You mean no face? Because he has a face, too: gaunt, cut short, blond, fair features.

No I mean because he's basically Clint Eastwood, but a little nicer to women. Think about it, everyone calls him by his rank, Master Chief. Even his name, isn't a name, it's a designation. Even that title, John-117, is devoid of a last name, and John is about as ubiquitous a name as anything else (Hence John Smith and John Doe being used as monikers for unidentified males). Throw in the fact that he's a Man of Few Words, and you've basically got everybody's favorite gunslinger from The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly.

I didn't even know what he looks like, but now that you've said it, I can't picture anyone else but this guy:


Go on, try to describe that face as anything but blonde, gaunt and fair featured.

[Triscuitable]

Ah, I interpreted you literally. A spaghetti Western reference completely phased me.

[An Enemy Spy]

How would an Elite Field Marshall or an Ultra compare to a Zealot?

[An Enemy Spy]

You mean no face? Because he has a face, too: gaunt, cut short, blond, fair features.

The Chief's hair is brown, not blonde.

[Triscuitable]

The Chief's hair is brown, not blonde.

Eh, it's been a long time since I've read The Fall of Reach. I'm just going by the comic cover.

Spoiler

Show

[ChaosLord29]

How would an Elite Field Marshall or an Ultra compare to a Zealot?

Statistics and Equipment wise, not much different I would imagine. The Zealot seems more or less the pinnacle of the Sangheili on the battlefield, even if individual Field Marshalls or Ultras outrank them or might be more accomplished in personal combat or other tests of skill. Assuming they're not named characters, I don't think it's worth including a rank above Zealot, unless they differ significantly from the other upper echelons of the Sangheili military structure in something other than rank.

I was thinking that maybe the Zealot should grant some support ability for other Sangheili and the Unggoy (Maybe like Steadfast Presence or Faith and Honor; allow nearby and accompanying units to re-roll morale checks). The Jiralhanae Chieftains on the other hand I think should make use of the Hate rule, for any Brutes that accompany them and any nearby Grunts should be cowed somehow (Immune to some effects, but more likely to flee when broken, I don't know).

[An Enemy Spy]

Statistics and Equipment wise, not much different I would imagine. The Zealot seems more or less the pinnacle of the Sangheili on the battlefield, even if individual Field Marshalls or Ultras outrank them or might be more accomplished in personal combat or other tests of skill. Assuming they're not named characters, I don't think it's worth including a rank above Zealot, unless they differ significantly from the other upper echelons of the Sangheili military structure in something other than rank.

I was thinking that maybe the Zealot should grant some support ability for other Sangheili and the Unggoy (Maybe like Steadfast Presence or Faith and Honor; allow nearby and accompanying units to re-roll morale checks). The Jiralhanae Chieftains on the other hand I think should make use of the Hate rule, for any Brutes that accompany them and any nearby Grunts should be cowed somehow (Immune to some effects, but more likely to flee when broken, I don't know).

That shouldn't apply to other Brutes. When one of their pack dies, they don't get demoralized, they get pissed.

[ChaosLord29]

That shouldn't apply to other Brutes. When one of their pack dies, they don't get demoralized, they get pissed.

Let me clarify, other Brutes with the Chieftain gain the added benefit, only the Grunts are more likely to flee.

See the Elites are the more balanced choice since their bonus to moral is more likely in the long run and applies to both Sangheili and Unggoy. The Brutes are more high-risk, high-reward, since they get an added combat bonus, but can also wind up causing Grunts to panic and flee, leaving them without support.

Reminds me, I meant to give the Brutes a rule to represent their bloodlust boiling over. Something like instead of being pinned by enemy fire, if they fail their morale check, they have to Run towards the enemy or if possible Charge into Close Combat.

And now I'm thinking there should be some rule representing the enmity between Brutes and Elites . . but that might be a few too many special rules for one army.

[An Enemy Spy]

Let me clarify, other Brutes with the Chieftain gain the added benefit, only the Grunts are more likely to flee.

See the Elites are the more balanced choice since their bonus to moral is more likely in the long run and applies to both Sangheili and Unggoy. The Brutes are more high-risk, high-reward, since they get an added combat bonus, but can also wind up causing Grunts to panic and flee, leaving them without support.

Reminds me, I meant to give the Brutes a rule to represent their bloodlust boiling over. Something like instead of being pinned by enemy fire, if they fail their morale check, they have to Run towards the enemy or if possible Charge into Close Combat.

And now I'm thinking there should be some rule representing the enmity between Brutes and Elites . . but that might be a few too many special rules for one army.

Well in Halo Wars, your armies can have Brutes or Elites, but never both.

[ChaosLord29]

Well in Halo Wars, your armies can have Brutes or Elites, but never both.

Let's call it Mutual Emnity- Sangheili Characters cannot join Units containing Jiralhanae and vice versa.

As for the rule representing the Brute's tendency to tardcharge, we'll call it Bloodlust and say that Brutes must always choose to purse and when suffering 25% casualties from shooting must pass a morale check (not a leadership check) or else Run or Charge the nearest enemy unit.

[shadow_archmagi]

Halo Nation says that Bungie considers Heroic, not Legendary, to be the "True" difficulty.

So bugger to all those people who insisted that Legendary was the real difficulty and every Elite could survive multiple sniper rounds to the head.

[ChaosLord29]

Halo Nation says that Bungie considers Heroic, not Legendary, to be the "True" difficulty.

So bugger to all those people who insisted that Legendary was the real difficulty and every Elite could survive multiple sniper rounds to the head.

Bungie has Spoken!

Also, I told ya'll so

[Triscuitable]

Bungie has Spoken!

Also, I told ya'll so

We know this. If you decide to choose the difficulty, it's listed as "the way Halo was meant to be played".

I just thought going by the books rather than the clearly-made-to-show-the-Chief-is-a-badass games was a better idea. The Covenant is a lot tougher than you'd think: the Chief just happens to make it a lot easier looking.

[The Glyphstone]

We know this. If you decide to choose the difficulty, it's listed as "the way Halo was meant to be played".

I just thought going by the books rather than the clearly-made-to-show-the-Chief-is-a-badass games was a better idea. The Covenant is a lot tougher than you'd think: the Chief just happens to make it a lot easier looking.

Which would fit with the description of what it's like to play in Heroic difficulty, from that page. It says Bungie considers Heroic the 'true Halo universe', not just the 'true difficulty'.

[ChaosLord29]

We know this. If you decide to choose the difficulty, it's listed as "the way Halo was meant to be played".

I just thought going by the books rather than the clearly-made-to-show-the-Chief-is-a-badass games was a better idea. The Covenant is a lot tougher than you'd think: the Chief just happens to make it a lot easier looking.

A lot tougher for the Marines and UNSC forces to handle maybe, but the point is Master Chief, through a combination of skill, luck, and the best equipment the UNSC can get (including a True AI companion) he manages to triumph against impossible odds.

I was just thinking maybe I should add an ability to John's profile: "The Demon" covenant forces suffer and additional -1 penalty on all Morale checks to avoid pinning or stay in Close Combat against Master Chief.

For that matter, can you imagine the psychological effect on the Covenant in facing down a whole army of Adeptus Astartes 'demons'?

[Fan]

We know this. If you decide to choose the difficulty, it's listed as "the way Halo was meant to be played".

I just thought going by the books rather than the clearly-made-to-show-the-Chief-is-a-badass games was a better idea. The Covenant is a lot tougher than you'd think: the Chief just happens to make it a lot easier looking.

Actually, the books have higher feats for chief than the games do. (barring game mechanics.)

Though it also limits the hydrostatic gel fall from orbit thing, as the book detailing it here.

I'd take the books as canon over the games though, more creative lee way.

[Tavar]

We know this. If you decide to choose the difficulty, it's listed as "the way Halo was meant to be played".

I just thought going by the books rather than the clearly-made-to-show-the-Chief-is-a-badass games was a better idea. The Covenant is a lot tougher than you'd think: the Chief just happens to make it a lot easier looking.

The Chief is a badass in universe, though. The thing is, there's only one of him(and a max of about 33 others who are like him). As for the Covenant not being dangerous....what games were you playing? I seem to remember the Covenant managing to defeat multiple fortress worlds, including earth itself. Aren't there only supposed to be about 500 mil people left on earth after Halo 3, or something? That's a pretty big hit.

[Triscuitable]

For that matter, can you imagine the psychological effect on the Covenant in facing down a whole army of Adeptus Astartes 'demons'?

Yes. The Covenant kill all of them. Especially considering they only feared one specific entity.

[ChaosLord29]

Yes. The Covenant kill all of them. Especially considering they only feared one specific entity.

No, that definitely doesn't sound right to me . . . I mean, if the Chief is the Demon, rightly feared as a harbinger of death where ere he treads the field of battle, I don't imagine the Unggoy and Kig-Yar are likely to going to be able to muster the courage to hold ranks and level fire against a company of Space Marines. Just imagine for a moment if you will the psychological effect of dozens of warriors just as tall and even more heavily armored than the Demon, drop podding onto the battlefield or soaring down from the heavens on jump packs, shrugging off Plasma Fire like so much morning dew as they spout blasphemous litanies and cries of "Death to the Xenos!", looking every inch their handle "Angels of Death".

Actually, I think the creation of this army list has been something along the lines of a coffin nail in settling the debate on whether or not the Covenant can handle the Imperium's ground forces. Even not having assigned point values to the units yet, I can tell you that to balance them against any opposing force you'd have to Covenant units the cheapest in the game to be able to field enough of them to match any IG or Space Marine armies strength on the battlefield.

[Triscuitable]

The Covenant recognize that the Chief has slaughtered too many of them. They've faced hundreds of Spartans, but they've never run in fear. The only time they're ever truly frightened is when the Elite CO of a squad is killed, or if the Chief just killed the CO of a squad in general. They don't turn their tail and run at the sight of him, or the campaigns would be a lot easier.

Point is: they fear Chief because the recognize him. They don't know who the Space Marines are.

[ChaosLord29]

The Covenant recognize that the Chief has slaughtered too many of them. They've faced hundreds of Spartans, but they've never run in fear. The only time they're ever truly frightened is when the Elite CO of a squad is killed, or if the Chief just killed the CO of a squad in general. They don't turn their tail and run at the sight of him, or the campaigns would be a lot easier.

Point is: they fear Chief because the recognize him. They don't know who the Space Marines are.

Except that they look like the Chief on Steroids lol. Of course, I guess we're really dealing with a Covenant who haven't encountered the Chief yet, or at least, before he's gotten his reputation.

But yes, the Army List is built to reflect that Unggoy and Kig-Yar have leadership scores comparable to the average 'gaunt or Gretchin (Space Goblins ) and the only thing keeping them in line is that Elite or Brute's leadership score. Even standard IG troops look like stalwart icemen compared to them haha.

I'm serious though, I can't be alone here thinking that the Covenant Army list we've constructed here looks like the kind of thing a humble orc warband, a smattering of Eldar Aspect Warriors, or even a few kitted out Tactical Squads couldn't take on, speak now or forever hold your piece.

I'll admit, I'm obviously biased about this whole thing, but I've done my best to stay objective in my comparisons of relative strengths. Can anyone give me a good reason to make Plasma Rifles a little stronger? Maybe give them an Armor Penetration Value? The Covenant just seem totally hamstrung by a lack of decent arms and armor, and I just don't see them being able to field the numbers to make up for that lack (At least, not the way the Nids or the Orks do).

[An Enemy Spy]

The Covenant recognize that the Chief has slaughtered too many of them. They've faced hundreds of Spartans, but they've never run in fear. The only time they're ever truly frightened is when the Elite CO of a squad is killed, or if the Chief just killed the CO of a squad in general. They don't turn their tail and run at the sight of him, or the campaigns would be a lot easier.

Point is: they fear Chief because the recognize him. They don't know who the Space Marines are.

Hundreds of Spartans? There's like 40 of them.

[ChaosLord29]

Hundreds of Spartans? There's like 40 of them.

Enemy Spy! You know Warhammer right? What would we have to change to make the Covenant a balanced faction against an Imperial Guard or Space Marine force?

I know I haven't added point values yet, but let's be kind and assume Grunts and Kig-Yar are comparable in price to the average Tyranid 'gaunt (Even though they're fielded in fantastically fewer numbers) and that Brutes and Elites are comparable in price to Eldar Aspect Warriors (The infantry, like Dire Avengers and Howling Banshees), even though they're statted out like Space Marines.

[Fan]

Well to give some perspective on the difference in ground weaponry.

Power Armor Durability, and Auto Cannon Firepower:

Heavy autocannon fire sprayed the roof of the building, churning up its pebbled surface and shredding human flesh. The men who had been awaiting rescue from the flyers were the first to die, ripped apart by the heavy caliber, armor piercing shells. Vedden screamed as an autocannon shell clipped him, instantly shearing his leg from his body in mid-thigh. He collapsed, dragging the girl to the ground with him.

The Ultramarines scattered, firing at the ornithopters, but their bolters were ineffective against the armored undersides of the gunships.

Learchus sprinted forward, diving to the ground to gather the girl in his arms and rolling on top of her as the ornithopter’s shells ripped towards her. He supported his weight on his elbows so as not to crush the girl and felt powerful impacts hammer into his back plate. He offered a short prayers of thanks to his armor for standing firm against the traitorous fire.

Do even modern sniper rifles tear men's limbs off with a clip? I don't think so.

Examples of Space Marine Durability:

Originally Posted by Ultramarines Omnibus, Page 22
“Incoming!” he yelled and dived over a pile of debris into a crater as the thunder of two battle cannons echoed across the gorge. He felt the awesome force of the impacts behind him, even through the ceramite of his power armor. His auto senses shut down momentarily to preserve his sight and hearing as the massive shell exploded, the pressure of the blast almost crushing him flat. Red runes winked into life on his visor as his armor was torn open in half a dozen places. He felt searing pain and cursed as he yanked a plate-sized piece of sizzling shrapnel from his leg. Almost instantly, he could feel the Larraman cells clotting his blood and forming a protective layer of scar tissue over the wound. He had suffered much worse before and shut out the pain.

Bolter firepower (Note: The First quote is a bolt PISTOL.) :

The firing abruptly ceased with the bark of two bolt pistols almost simultaneously; the man with the bolter seemed to explode, spraying bloody offal around the room and doing the expensive wallpaper no favours at all.

His ancient, ornate boltgun spat death into the Tanith ranks. Seargent Grell was vaporised by one of the first hits, two of his fire-team a moment later.

Range:

Originally Posted by Angels of Darkness, Page 196
Muzzle flashes sparkled in the darkness as the traitors opened fire, but half a kilometre away their opening shots went wide of the mark. Boreas threw himself forward, covering the ground in five metre strides, preferring to close the range rather than fire. To his left, Thumiel paused and fired several rounds from his bolter, and Damas added his covering fire as well. Fifty metres on, Boreas skidded to a halt and leveled his bolt pistol as Zaul and Nestor advanced to his right. Thumbing the fire selector to semi-automatic, he [Boreas] emptied the magazine in five short bursts, the explosive bolts tearing through a knot of enemy three hundred meters in front of him.

The comparison of a Bolter to an automatic rocket launcher isn't exactly off. This is nearly double the range of standard small arms, and the output is enough to completely evaporate a man.