The Covenant (Halo) vs The Grand Imperium of Man (Warhammer 40k)

[MLai]

I will add "its not absolutely impossible" is NOT an explanation. Its waving a magic wand.

Wow, you can say this for every science fiction ever.
Science fiction, being fiction, deals with what is plausibly possible, not what the author can prove in a doctoral thesis. That's an impossible requirement for this genre. Off the top of my head, only 20K Leagues Under The Sea would pass your requirement.
All I've been arguing for is "What is possible (with biological systems)."

And heck we already know the 'Nids CANT be just as bizarre as needed because they eat people. That means that there is the additional challenge of this all being fundamentally compatible with Earth biochemistry. Or the 'Nids would get nothing out of eating planets.

Cue the entire point of me linking to a polyethylene composed entirely of carbon and hydrogen, "in some forms being 15 times more resistant to abrasion than carbon steel."

[Misery Esquire]

And heck we already know the 'Nids CANT be just as bizarre as needed because they eat people. That means that there is the additional challenge of this all being fundamentally compatible with Earth biochemistry. Or the 'Nids would get nothing out of eating planets.

To be fair, they also inhale the (entire) atmosphere off of planets, eat all the loam and other "healthy" dirts, take all the loose minerals, along with all the living stuff.

It's hard to say what they survive on when... Well, they eat more or less everything. Except lasers.

[The Glyphstone]

Oddly, the 'they can eat anything' bit is probably the least hard-to-figure out thing about them. Their manner of reproduction and resupply has to be something like a biological variant of atomic/molecular assembly to begin, so it'd make a lot of sense if their digestion works the same in reverse, breaking everything they consume down to its individual raw atomic or molecular ingredients. You don't need to be able to process and use Earth amino acids if you can just rip them apart into the raw hydrogen, carbon, nitrogen, and oxygen. Biochemistry can vary across planets, but the periodic table of the elements doesn't change (much).

[Starbuck_II]

To be fair, they also inhale the (entire) atmosphere off of planets, eat all the loam and other "healthy" dirts, take all the loose minerals, along with all the living stuff.

It's hard to say what they survive on when... Well, they eat more or less everything. Except lasers.

Eventually they will evolve lazer eating. Then the space marines will pay!

[Soras Teva Gee]

Wow, you can say this for every science fiction ever.

No.

There's a difference between a reasonable explanation and story-magic. An explanation should deal with the problems as they might actually be resolvable.

Guns for example are a "dead" technology as of about fifty years ago, the laws of physics leave them nowhere to go. You should never see a man fire a bullet from a pistol and have it blow up a tank. *If* you do, an explanation would account for how. The pistol was say maybe an energy weapon or actually a high energy compact device that plays with gravity itself to create a much bigger effect.

Something like "science made their guns better" is not an explanation. It using the magic of artistic license then telling you to ignore the problem.

Science fiction, being fiction, deals with what is plausibly possible, not what the author can prove in a doctoral thesis.

Organic technology is not plausibly possible if you will. Its critters with superpowers.

Its energy sources are too inefficient and removed, its engineering is far often far too complicated, and it has a massive performance gap to cover to even match modern tech. At least as depicted, if say instead of a critter running down a car it road in a car of its own that happened to have been grown instead of assembled... that might be plausible. That's not how its depicted though.

A Tryanid runs or maybe flies. Their guns don't fire by explosive force they fire by muscle spasms.

Cue the entire point of me linking to a polyethylene composed entirely of carbon and hydrogen, "in some forms being 15 times more resistant to abrasion than carbon steel."

So it handles skidding better and doesn't scratch, that's one form of resistance.

Is it also structurally solid enough to build buildings out of. Does it bend or shatter under stress. If its good armor then is there a pilot program that will be replacing tank armor with it? And where's the engineered bacteria vat spitting out said armor cheaper then a foundry?

More likely if its useful then once the chemistry is figured out enough then biology would be cut entirely out of the process because a factory could make the product much faster. Maybe that doesn't happen because for some particular reason technology of the time can't replicate the process, but you can bet it will outproduce something and for less investment.

Oddly, the 'they can eat anything' bit is probably the least hard-to-figure out thing about them. Their manner of reproduction and resupply has to be something like a biological variant of atomic/molecular assembly to begin, so it'd make a lot of sense if their digestion works the same in reverse, breaking everything they consume down to its individual raw atomic or molecular ingredients. You don't need to be able to process and use Earth amino acids if you can just rip them apart into the raw hydrogen, carbon, nitrogen, and oxygen. Biochemistry can vary across planets, but the periodic table of the elements doesn't change (much).

Which rather exacerbates the energy problem. The more you have to process something the more energy it requires because every instance of work demands entropy.

[Tiki Snakes]

There's only so much point discussing a faction when one of those involved completely refuses to accept the central assumptions necessary for the faction to even exist in order to be discussed.

"The Tyranid are badwrong because all biomechanical stuff is impossible"
Fair enough point perhaps, but it's kind of a conversational dead end, as that pretty much closes the topic, you know? There's no point comparing the finer points of how they do or might work when you deny their entire existence.

Are there any factions in 40k that you can tolerate? or could we have saved a lot of time and imaginary ink by cutting straight to "I hate everything about the Warhammer 40k franchise!"

[An Enemy Spy]

In a universe that has evil Chaos Gods and a race who can make broken machinery work simply because they're too dumb to it shouldn't, are Tyranids really the thing that's just too much for you to accept.
Fiction shouldn't have to be bound by the laws of what's absolutely realistic. The whole point of fiction is that it can be whatever you want it to, whether it's possible or not.

[Triscuitable]

Are there any factions in 40k that you can tolerate? or could we have saved a lot of time and imaginary ink by cutting straight to "I hate everything about the Warhammer 40k franchise!"

I think it's less about hating it (it's a really cool series), and more about talking about how stupidly impossible most of the stuff in it is. The universe is absolutely broken in terms of comparisons to other worlds. Halo? Trounced. Star Trek? Obliterated. Star Wars? Debatable, but most likely blown up.

[Misery Esquire]

Star Trek? Obliterated.

To be fair, if we made it Federation And Friends With 100% Ruthless Leaders And All The Episode McGuffins, they'd be able to make an impressive stand, before being drowned in blood.*

*I suspect an IG General, somewhere, has done this literally, at least once.

[An Enemy Spy]

I think it's less about hating it (it's a really cool series), and more about talking about how stupidly impossible most of the stuff in it is. The universe is absolutely broken in terms of comparisons to other worlds. Halo? Trounced. Star Trek? Obliterated. Star Wars? Debatable, but most likely blown up.

That's why I don't approve of 40k vs. threads. It's a universe not bound by plausibility or sanity. There is practically no limit to what any faction can do if the author is on their side and all their weapons and technology are defined by what sounds really badass.

[Triscuitable]

To be fair, if we made it Federation And Friends With 100% Ruthless Leaders And All The Episode McGuffins, they'd be able to make an impressive stand, before being drowned in blood.*

*I suspect an IG General, somewhere, has done this literally, at least once.

Want to consider the Nexus and angry Picard?

That's why I don't approve of 40k vs. threads. It's a universe not bound by plausibility or sanity. There is practically no limit to what any faction can do if the author is on their side and all their weapons and technology are defined by what sounds really badass.

IMO, a better comparison would be The Covenant Vs. Cerberus, or The Flood Vs. The Reapers. I could also do Xenomorphs Vs. [other alien race], but that's been overdone by the guys who own that franchise.

[Starbuck_II]

Want to consider the Nexus and angry Picard?



IMO, a better comparison would be The Covenant Vs. Cerberus, or The Flood Vs. The Reapers. I could also do Xenomorphs Vs. [other alien race], but that's been overdone by the guys who own that franchise.

Half life zombies vesus the flood?

[Misery Esquire]

Half life zombies vesus the flood?

HL Zombie/Headcrabs lack a way to adapt to being Flood Infected. Unless there's an open rift to Xen, they lose out. If there is an open rift... They can win near the rift for a while, and then lose?

Flood is a Galatic-type threat, if a dependant one.
Headcrab zombies are a Planetary threat, if they could keep a rift open.

[shadow_archmagi]

Yeah, Headcrabs are nifty, but their infection is slower and their zombies don't gain wuxia-style speed and agility like the flood do. (They do get ridiculous strength though- hilarious to die to a zombie-punted barrel.)

[Triscuitable]

Half life zombies vesus the flood?

This'd fail simply because the Flood is more adaptable to what it infects, and are simply more numerous. While there are a lot of headcrab zombies in Half Life, it's worthy of note that they were mostly scientists or ambushed security guards. In Episode 1, it bites the Combine in the ass because they're not meant to be used as a BOW.

There's also always Lamarr.

EDIT: Or is it Lamaar?

[Soras Teva Gee]

There's only so much point discussing a faction when one of those involved completely refuses to accept the central assumptions necessary for the faction to even exist in order to be discussed.

"The Tyranid are badwrong because all biomechanical stuff is impossible"
Fair enough point perhaps, but it's kind of a conversational dead end, as that pretty much closes the topic, you know? There's no point comparing the finer points of how they do or might work when you deny their entire existence.

Are there any factions in 40k that you can tolerate? or could we have saved a lot of time and imaginary ink by cutting straight to "I hate everything about the Warhammer 40k franchise!"

Don't confuse awareness of their monumental improbability with dislike. Tryanids are no worse then their clones the Zerg, Species 8472, the Vong, the Xenomorphs to a degree, and other bio-tech and/or space bugs out there. For that matter many of the genetically engineered super soldiers out there.

The level of handwave they need relative to others has pretty much nothing to do with my personal opinions of them. I don't go to Dune and complain about how the sandworms make no more sense as a problem, its probably my favorite SF series. I care not a fig for how hard or soft a sci-fi is. Am I still aware of it? Oh heck yes.

And I rather like 40k too. The problem is its rather the Wolverine of fandoms, coming up way too often and with way too big a rep. And far too many of its fans seemed to have missed the whole point of the setting and think relatively speaking Wolverine can actually beat Lobo. Perhaps worst of all its not that Wolverine and 40k somehow aren't badass in their own way, they are. Just not like everyone thinks.

Which is especially ironic for 40k as that is pretty much exactly the Imperium's problem. It a rotting corpse of an empire pretending its still healthy.

[Tiki Snakes]

Don't confuse awareness of their monumental improbability with dislike.

Ah, I think I follow.

Which is especially ironic for 40k as that is pretty much exactly the Imperium's problem. It a rotting corpse of an empire pretending its still healthy.

You keep saying that, but the simple fact of the matter is, it still exists and has existed for an unrivalled length of time. It has a decimal place or three on the lifespan of most other Empires, being long-lived even in the realm of fiction, and isn't even at breaking point yet.

There is a difference between decline and terminal decay. It's not without it's problems, and some of them will come to a head if the timeline ever advances, (unlikely) but it's also still one of the most powerful players on the galactic stage and even though growth and advancement are cripplingly stunted, both still take place.

The Emperor may be a slowly decaying corpse, but the Empire is still merely unwell. And it doesn't want to go on the cart.

[MLai]

Organic technology is not plausibly possible if you will. Its critters with superpowers.

Your entire stance on organic technology is based on what is plausible in accordance with evolution, in your backyard. Until you acknowledge that, there is nowhere to go with your mind.
I listed examples of strange Earth critters not because they can outperform machines, or because you can extrapolate them into a giant size that can then outperform machines. I was illustrating how organic systems can surprise you if you look beyond the norm. If I just said a crustacean 1-2 inches long can create a cavitation bubble with a flash temperature as hot as the surface of the sun, you'd rightly say bull**** without thinking more about it. You're doing the same thing with the Nids.

At least as depicted, if say instead of a critter running down a car it road in a car of its own that happened to have been grown instead of assembled... that might be plausible. That's not how its depicted though.

This, of course I can agree with.
If there are plausible space critters which can run faster than cars and can shoot projectiles, OF COURSE they're not going to look like chickens with teeth and a gun attached to their arm. If there is a plausible sparefaring ship-creature, OF COURSE it's not going to look like a space whale (for example).
You are mixing up the plausible idea with the specifics. I was arguing for the plausibility of the concept of Nids, not the models GW made. If you go along that line, why aren't you complaining about how Space Marines can't even lift their arms up or how Commissars are effectively blind because their collars cover their heads?

Is it also structurally solid enough to build buildings out of. Does it bend or shatter under stress. If its good armor then is there a pilot program that will be replacing tank armor with it? And where's the engineered bacteria vat spitting out said armor cheaper then a foundry?

HOw is it not self-evident, especially since I said so, that it's an illustration of the concept of plausibility, not the actual doctoral thesis on how to make an organic spaceship??????????

[Triscuitable]

That's an awful lot of question marks. You lost me, by the way.

[MLai]

Yeah I got frustrated. Can you tell?
Tiki Snakes said it best:

There's only so much point discussing a faction when one of those involved completely refuses to accept the central assumptions necessary for the faction to even exist in order to be discussed.

[Tavar]

Yeah I got frustrated. Can you tell?
Tiki Snakes said it best:

Considering the entire discussion seems to be about the basic premise of the faction, I'm not sure why you're surprised it's being discussed.

Also, regarding that post, if you offer up something as evidence, one shouldn't be surprised if it's analyzed.

[Soras Teva Gee]

You keep saying that, but the simple fact of the matter is, it still exists and has existed for an unrivalled length of time. It has a decimal place or three on the lifespan of most other Empires, being long-lived even in the realm of fiction, and isn't even at breaking point yet.

Well there's also some room for debate as to how long the Empire has been screwed. I've heard varying reports that it was the Age of Apostasy and not the Horus Heresy that really screwed the pooch cutting the figure of decay in half.

Also while this is more opinion... as 9/10 sci-fi writers have no sense of scale or think of their numbers all that much I find it the saner policy to consider numbers very loosely. A ten thousand year history is less a good absolute measure and more of a conveyance of the concept of the "a long time" rather then an exact figure.

I'd speculate the 10k history is simply upping the order of magnitude on the idea it should take a galaxy longer to do anything from the sheer scale. Since everything happens at that scale it sort of equalizes though. The 'Nids and the Necrons are the "most recent" threats and have been making trouble for a couple hundred years.

The Emperor may be a slowly decaying corpse, but the Empire is still merely unwell. And it doesn't want to go on the cart.

[/QUOTE]

Oh no its pretty doomed.

Most potently perhaps in core rulebook for example its revealed that as of 999.M41 the Mechanicus is aware of irreparable flaws in the Golden Throne they can't fix. No Throne, no Emperor, no Astropaths or Astronomicon, no Imperium. Though humanity could presumably linger on if Chaos, the Orks, and the 'Nids don't eat everything. And they could eat everything despite the Imperium's efforts even if the Big E lingers through M42 entirely. Unless those factions in writing get to "cheat" less.

Not that Games Workshop will probably do that. And I can even saving throws they could pull that amount to a deus ex where one of the Imperium's enemies deals with one of the others in a major way to their mutual devastation.

Your entire stance on organic technology is based on what is plausible in accordance with evolution, in your backyard. Until you acknowledge that, there is nowhere to go with your mind.

I don't see biology wholly different then what is present on Earth as any sort of explanation no.

It can be fine story, but it does not become "plausible" in any way that we should expect such things are out there because plausible most have consistent explanations the relate to what we know already.

I listed examples of strange Earth critters not because they can outperform machines, or because you can extrapolate them into a giant size that can then outperform machines.

The square cube law among other things makes scaling up one of the hardest things to do.

A human sized ant wouldn't have its proportionate strength, it probably wouldn't even be able to move because its structure is not built for that weight and volume.

Make a cheetah bigger you don't end up with a lion sized mammal capable of 60 mph sprints, you end up with a lion. Much less one faster.

(This applies to machines too of course but their inherent superiority and simplicity leave more leeway)

I was illustrating how organic systems can surprise you if you look beyond the norm. If I just said a crustacean 1-2 inches long can create a cavitation bubble with a flash temperature as hot as the surface of the sun, you'd rightly say bull**** without thinking more about it. You're doing the same thing with the Nids.

Temperature is one of those things that doesn't mean what a lot of people casually think it means. Namely higher temperature does not automatically mean a lot of energy.

Take lightning as hot as the surface of the sun and thousands or whatever volts... and the vast majority of people struck by it survive. Because it doesn't represent that much energy at the end of the day. Better yet a its merely a big arc of static electricity. So a bit of wool, carpet and the right kinda day...

I understand certain fireworks are similar. A sparkler's sparks are extremely hot as I understand it but as long as you don't touch the burning part itself its safe enough for a child to hold and wave around.

You are mixing up the plausible idea with the specifics. I was arguing for the plausibility of the concept of Nids, not the models GW made. If you go along that line, why aren't you complaining about how Space Marines can't even lift their arms up or how Commissars are effectively blind because their collars cover their heads?

Who says I don't?

I'd say the difference is that the Marine need only meet a lower standard of plausiblity. All the concepts you need to make a bolter exist, prototype exoskeletons exist (powering them remains something I consider a pressing issue) and certainly armor exists though probably should not be as potent. You don't per say need all the other details to make the Space Marines, the Sisters of Battle show that.

As for the Astartes themselves I really can put some modest standards for being "better" then human. However so help me the figure on them I have in my head is 8 ft, which has happened. Though growing that large is generally thought to be not healthy. Then again I suspect a lot of the other modifications marines go through is simply to compensate for the problems of this. At the more basic idea of the "super soldier" though, if we can do genetic/body modifications at all I suspect (relatively modest) improvements are possible.

I'm sure I have a modest view on where the "Plausible Marines" would end and "Super Marines" would begin though. Like I suspect they'd never be able to say be dumped on a planet without support, since they'd all starve from ramped up metabolisms requiring more calories. Or something similar.

There's certainly still some artistic license being taken there. Where it starts well that's an open question. I think super heavy infantry immune to small arms fire fills the basic profile and is very loosely plausible to exist. Depending on how you think Astartes do against grenades, heavy machine guns, RPGs, and how useful super-heavy infantry would actually be there is where plausiblity ends. (And I'd say Captain America is a more plausible super soldier in concept, if less so in say the movies)

Also on Commisar uniforms I'll defer to Commisar Cain's opinion that suggests by far their greatest problem is the lack of a helmet. Wearing distinctive colors would easily be number two. The collar by a quick image search seems to be a more modest issue only cutting off the lower and back end of periphery vision in most case. By no means ideal but small potatoes on the whole.

HOw is it not self-evident, especially since I said so, that it's an illustration of the concept of plausibility, not the actual doctoral thesis on how to make an organic spaceship??????????

So I infer that to be a "no" to most of my questions then.

You see you gave me scratch resistant material that isn't even natural by my reading and you want it to go any further.

Why... just because it isn't metallic?

Your claim here has no substance, no depth, and no completion to make it relevant.

[MLai]

Perhaps that's also the part that Triscuit got lost on.

I was saying that I was offering an example as an illustration of plausibility. Like saying "Yes sure it defies common sense belief, but look at what we can already accomplish on Earth with carbon-based compounds!"

I was not offering an example as evidence of what we can use to build a Tyranid today. If I dug more I'm sure I could find other examples, though. For example, this is one google from a keyword off the top of my head:

Carbon-based body armor
600 micrometer in thickness can bounce off bullets with muzzle energy of 320 J (higher than a 9mm, lower than a .38 special), even if repeatedly hitting the same spot.
This is the kind of stuff we can make space elevators out of.

[Tavar]

Also, I'd point out that it isn't simply necessary to posit biology that is different from Earth biology. It is necessary to have a different biological system that far surpasses what we know biological systems are capable of, while also being compatible with Earth biological systems. This cuts out many, many useful things.


Also, regarding the Marines themselves...they are not realistic, no. But many of their attributes are plausible: yes, they are taller and stronger, but their most fearsome strenght only comes into play when dealing with powered Armor units or the Emperor's own Sons(and, it should be noted, the latter almost certainly all have some degree of innate psyker potential, giving them some of their fearsome edge). It also helps that the process involved in their creation is relatively well thought out: combination extreme gene therapy, medication, and surgery can conceivably alter the Human body a great deal.

This is a good listing of their 'natural' capabilities, and they are relatively well thought out. They are obviously not within our current capabilities, but many seem at the least reasonable, largely because they operate using systems we are already familiar with.

Perhaps that's also the part that Triscuit got lost on.

I was saying that I was offering an example as an illustration of plausibility. Like saying "Yes sure it defies common sense belief, but look at what we can already accomplish on Earth with carbon-based compounds!"

I was not offering an example as evidence of what we can use to build a Tyranid today. If I dug more I'm sure I could find other examples, though. For example, this is one google from a keyword off the top of my head:

Carbon compounds =/= organic compounds and processes.

Carbon-based body armor
600 micrometer in thickness can bounce off bullets with muzzle energy of 320 J (higher than a 9mm, lower than a .38 special), even if repeatedly hitting the same spot.
This is the kind of stuff we can make space elevators out of.

Yes. And We use inorganic processes to make those things. This doesn't prove your point.

[Triscuitable]

Yeah I got frustrated. Can you tell?

Yes, yes I can.

Perhaps that's also the part that Triscuit got lost on.

I didn't get lost as in "I got confused", I got lost as in "your argument is clearly filled with frustration, so I should wait until he calms down to outline finer points".

[MLai]

Soras: The square cube law among other things makes scaling up one of the hardest things to do.

Here you're doing it again. I just finished saying that I'm NOT trying to giant-size a bug to make it seem impressive, and you quote me the square-cube which anyone marginally interested in sci-fi already knows.

I understand certain fireworks are similar.

If you must know, their oxidizing temperature is 1/5-1/4 the temperature of sun's surface.
We're talking about a 1 inch shrimp. That is underwater. Snapping its little claw.
And I was illustrating the lengths Earth organisms can go to, through just natural evolutionary process.

So I infer that to be a "no" to most of my questions then.
You see you gave me scratch resistant material that isn't even natural by my reading and you want it to go any further.
Why... just because it isn't metallic?

You infer a lot, and you also don't infer enough.
As to why? I suppose a chain composed of entirely carbon and hydrogen just doesn't infer anything for you. You don't even need to have passed high school chemistry. I don't know what you even get out of science fiction.

I don't see biology wholly different then what is present on Earth as any sort of explanation no.

We're done.

Your claim here has no substance, no depth, and no completion to make it relevant.

Actually, sorry. THIS is where we're done.

Tavar: Yes. And We use inorganic processes to make those things. This doesn't prove your point.

Soras shares this train of thought, and it's a strange one for me. Yes, we use inorganic processes to make these things. As we are wont to with most of our technology. But these things are composed of the common elements of the periodic table which comprise the biosphere that Nids are so interested in harvesting. So why do you assume they cannot create the same materials composed of these elements, using their super duper organic means?

Triscuit: I didn't get lost as in "I got confused", I got lost as in "your argument is clearly filled with frustration, so I should wait until he calms down to outline finer points".

Well I'll tell ya, it's hard to keep calm when someone keeps omnislashing your paragraphs to quote things out of context. Especially when in the same paragraph you had already seen such an underhanded tactic coming and tried to preempt it by explaining yourself in advance.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Here you're doing it again. I just finished saying that I'm NOT trying to giant-size a bug to make it seem impressive, and you quote me the square-cube which anyone marginally interested in sci-fi already knows.

Then why are you bringing up the shrimp. They evidently create a high temperature but low energy reaction that while perhaps neato-fun... is a long way from flaming sun claws of death or anything actual application.

If you must know, their oxidizing temperature is 1/5-1/4 the temperature of sun's surface.
We're talking about a 1 inch shrimp. That is underwater. Snapping its little claw.
And I was illustrating the lengths Earth organisms can go to, through just natural evolutionary process.

This all comes off to me rather like arguing something like: because a kids toy wagon exists so too must skyscrapers.

You might not be technically wrong, but one fact has no useful relationship to the other just because they happen to share using steel. While somehow saying that the intervening and massive engineering difficulties are somehow unimportant.

Its not that you are wrong, its that being right hasn't gotten you anywhere because you haven't addressed the actual problem.

Soras shares this train of thought, and it's a strange one for me. Yes, we use inorganic processes to make these things. As we are wont to with most of our technology. But these things are composed of the common elements of the periodic table which comprise the biosphere that Nids are so interested in harvesting. So why do you assume they cannot create the same materials composed of these elements, using their super duper organic means?

Carbon is one of those wonder elements true, but it doesn't mean because I'm made of some percent carbon its all that plausible I can evolve an organ to secrete diamonds. Where does the pressure and temperature come from and the energy to sustain them? The diamond process is pretty specific chemically.

And honestly material production is one area where organic processes are strong. Its probably the most possible. Primarily because well, to take armor as an example... armor doesn't have to do anything.

This is why for example I think the "grown tech" is perhaps closest to plausible, because you can make parts and then put them togther and make a machine. Like an internal combustion engine made of bone and running on ethanol. Though the more I think about that, despite stating it, the more actually starting it might be a problem. And of course this rather defeats the purpose even if functional the machine would not be alive anymore then any other machine.

And so help me the essence of the organic tech is the idea that its alive.

[MLai]

Then why are you bringing up the shrimp. They evidently create a high temperature but low energy reaction that while perhaps neato-fun... is a long way from flaming sun claws of death or anything actual application.
Its not that you are wrong, its that being right hasn't gotten you anywhere because you haven't addressed the actual problem.

Well I guess we're not done because I would like to clarify.

I am not saying pistol shrimp -> ??? -> Nids - > profit! It's not about an argument of logic.

The original mention of the pistol shrimp was to illustrate that even just Terran life under the auspices of evolution, can produce neato-fun things. Birds had GPS long before we thought of the concept. Whales have sonar with an effective range of [something ridiculous] before we ever had anything resembling it. Etc.

Does that mean NIDS, does that mean When Animals Fight Wars? No.
It simply means, "Expand your mind, maaaan." Biology can benefit from seeming flights of fancy, just as much as engineering of augmented humans to become walking tanks can benefit from the fanciful assumptions of sci fi.

And this is where you can rightly argue with "But the point is that it's not as plausible, because fundamentally biological systems cannot operate that way, no matter what world you're from." Which is what you were saying.

And that's where we differ, because I'm saying that biological systems cannot operate that way under evolution. I'm saying imagine a process that produces results as elegant and ingenious as what we see in evolution, except instead of the end goal being "Good Enough," the end goal is "As awesome as possible."

Carbon is one of those wonder elements true, but it doesn't mean because I'm made of some percent carbon its all that plausible I can evolve an organ to secrete diamonds.

That is exactly what is plausible. As long as we are not talking about evolution.
This is actually, dare I say it, a form of intelligent design.

This is why for example I think the "grown tech" is perhaps closest to plausible, because you can make parts and then put them togther and make a machine.

I agree with this, FYI. If you want me to argue that the models as GW has them are plausible scenarios to the level of rigor you're advocating, then no, they are not. They're chickens with teeth, sometimes with a gun attached to one arm. Piss poor designs for the stated purpose.

And of course this rather defeats the purpose even if functional the machine would not be alive anymore then any other machine. And so help me the essence of the organic tech is the idea that its alive.

But that's where we disagree again: I would say that this system you just organically put together is indeed as alive as any other living machine. You put a complex enough set of neuro-circuitry into this organically grown motorbike... and isn't it now at least an insect?

You might say, by this definition wouldn't a Land Raider be alive too? Well, according to a Techpriest that is exactly right, isn't it? I simply make the assumption that a Tyranid insect-motorbike has even more complex neuro-circuitry than a Land Raider's OS.

And then you multiply that manufacturing process of the insect-motorbike exponentially in complexity. Pretty soon, you end up with a manufactured product that looks/feels less like a machine, and more like an alien creature.

Addendum: And thanks for resuming with civility. It makes the discussion more worth having.

[Triscuitable]

Well I'll tell ya, it's hard to keep calm when someone keeps omnislashing your paragraphs to quote things out of context. Especially when in the same paragraph you had already seen such an underhanded tactic coming and tried to preempt it by explaining yourself in advance.

And now you're attacking me. Do you not see how this isn't helping your case?

Also, it's easier just to cut/paste quotes into one big post (like I did) than copy/paste them into your own [ quote][ /quote] boxes.

[MLai]

And now you're attacking me. Do you not see how this isn't helping your case?
Also, it's easier just to cut/paste quotes into one big post (like I did) than copy/paste them into your own [ quote][ /quote] boxes.

Uh, I was speaking to you in a conversational manner, talking about Soras.
I don't see you omnislashing me anywhere. Where did you get the idea I was talking about you?
Blame the internet.