The Culture v's 40kverse

[The Glyphstone]

LOL. I see the potential for another disastrous misunderstanding. This time from assuming the other side is too advanced.
"Those things? Oh, they can't be the real Necrons, we're looking for the guys who made them. These things are just toys. Someone's been littering HSes around here. "
- Obviously, the answer is the C'Tans, but they won't be found easily. And clearly waking them up would be a Bad Idea.
- It's even pretty consistent. Remember my idea about the Culture releasing their own pet low-tech HS? Yeah, the thing about post-singularity societies is that when you fight wars, HSes are strategic weapons. And looky here! Isn't that just a perfect description of the Ancient Ones vs C'Tan? (if you squint really hard, artificially uplifted lifeforms are like a nice version of a HS)


The Glyphstone:
I don't see any reason why any further conflict wouldn't be such a curbstomp. The Necrons may have fancy armour and teleport, but they still have no answer to Displacers. Even just a plain old singularity warhead if comes to that.

I don't intend to have many more "battles" though (probably none at all). Most likely, there will be an attempt to contact the nonexistent 'actual' Necrons by questioning the prisoners to learn where the raid originated from (and mindreading when it doesn't work). And then going to them and trying to convince them to stop killing other people.

Sounds insane to any 40k-er. But well, Culture in 40k is just asking for insane.
"You're going to just... just walk up there and say, 'Sorry, we broke your toys. Can you please make them stop trying to kill things and we'll try not to break them anymore?' ... wtf, may as well bring cupcakes and invite them to a tea party. " <- Metaphorical Eldar reaction if they ever learn of this.

I'll put your part in after they learn of the 'real' Necrons, it's a neat idea! I still have no idea if they'll even be able to find the Tomb World though (and if it even potentially leads to a Necron-Culture alliance? The Farseers would suicide before they would allow the Eldar to tell the Culture where the Tomb Worlds are).


Do the Necron footsoldiers know where the Tomb World is on a starchart?

How would the Eldar react now that they have a glimpse of exactly why the Black Council was going ballistic about them?
- My thinking is, tell the other Craftworlds (clearly important enough to do that)
- Introduce the Culture to Orks and Tyranids too. Hope either one piss the Culture off and get wiped. It's worth a try.

Remember than with the Newcrons, the C'tan are not individual threats. They're broken into shards and enslaved as weapons by the Necrons, locked away in dimensional pocket prisons between fights. A C'tan shard is only let out to play for serious fights,when a dynasty is actually in danger.

As for weapons...I don't expect the Necrons to win,or even do serious damage. But a Necron war force prepped to fight something on their own tech level (such as themselves, which they do occasionally) will be much closer to Culturetech than anything they've met so far. Gauss weaponry is a very primitive, small-scale version of displacer technology (so when properly tuned, Necron shields should offer at least partial protection against Displacement), they have offensive nanotechnology, they even weaponize hyperspace to a degree - not so much for guns, but they can create isolated hyperspace 'pockets' for ambushes against realspace enemies. Necron Chronotech is, I dare say, possible one area they are actually more advanced than the Culture, though still limited. Against CAM warheads or Gridfire, they're toast - but attacking a Dynasty capital should at least give the Culture pause, and fighting a C'tan shard or two rewriting the local laws of physics to its advantage could actually be a challenge.

As for diplomacy, it might actually work, because as previously mentioned, every Dynasty is approaching its rebirth in a different manner. Most are militaristic or isolationist, but a few could be genuinely diplomatic if treated respectfully...and boy would that piss off the Eldar, who only remember the Necrons when they were an actual HS under the rule of the pre-shattered C'tan sixty million years ago. Have the Culture ever met a HS that rebelled against its post-singularity creators and won, de-homogenizing itself in te process?

[jseah]

I wouldn't be so sure. I mean, Necrons are capable of manipulating Time so it is quite possible that some of their devices should defend against Displacers. Void Shields, for example, block conventional teleports which is why space battles use Boarding Torpedoes.

o.O Time? =D ... =|

=(

Do we want to go there? I don't want to go there. I have one time travel story already and I am still trying to make the explanation of the last chapter actually be understandable without taking an entire shelf of bookspace.

Gauss weaponry is a very primitive, small-scale version of displacer technology (so when properly tuned, Necron shields should offer at least partial protection against Displacement),

Ah, fair enough. Ok, I'll accept that Necron shields stop displacement while they are up.

Still gonna be a curbstomp though. Effectors can drop shields by simulating a laser hit and then the Displacers remove your shield device.
EDIT: strike that, I think I overestimate effectors. Will have to come up with some other shield dropping scheme.
EDIT2: like Displacing a bundle of plasma/antimatter as close to the shield as possible. That ought to blow it down handily. And *then*, the shield generator isn't there anymore.

Necron Chronotech is, I dare say, possible one area they are actually more advanced than the Culture, though still limited.

What does Chronotech do? I can't find it in the Lexicanum. I sure hope it isn't outright time-travel.

Have the Culture ever met a HS that rebelled against its post-singularity creators and won, de-homogenizing itself in the process?

I don't know if they've seen one before. But they sure have now. =D

They wouldn't. Necron foot soldiers don't know much of anything besides fighting. Only the Royalty class guys would be able to do that.

Welp, guess that's that then. The Eldar won't tell them, their prisoners don't know. They'll just have to stumble over one like the rest of the IoM.

At least I can still get some use out of the prisoners. (you'll see =D)

[Forum Explorer]

Necron Chrono-tech: It's tricky but I think it's mostly accelerating time as a weapon to fast age enemies or to speed construction. Also they use advanced stasis where they effectively freeze someone in time.


However I think on the highest level a Necron managed to literally capture a moment of time and it just eternally loops for it's pleasure. To everyone else it seemed as if the people and objects involved just disappeared.

[jseah]

Necron Chrono-tech: It's tricky but I think it's mostly accelerating time as a weapon to fast age enemies or to speed construction. Also they use advanced stasis where they effectively freeze someone in time.

=D

Now, that. That is something that is good. The range? Any limits to it (like size, weight, whatever)?

How rare is it as a weapon?
EDIT: How rare is it outside the battlefield? I have learnt that in 40k, this is sometimes not correlated; and very often, it's the other uses that get you, not how much of a better gun it is.

[The Glyphstone]

=D

Now, that. That is something that is good. The range? Any limits to it (like size, weight, whatever)?

How rare is it as a weapon?

It's small enough to be carried as a personal accessory by Necron royalty, but similarly rare; you'll never see an Aeonstave or Chronometron in the hands of a common foot soldier.

Outside the battlefield, uncertain, but likely to be very common - the entire Necron civilization effectively put themselves into chronal stasis for sixty million years, so they're used to applying it on a large scale. The fast-time function is probably much more limited, but they do have it and would make use of it where they could.

EDIT: On the other hand, their weird feudal social heirarchy means they could have or make more chronotech devices than they use, because it's not proper for a non-royal to wield such technology.

[jseah]

Outside the battlefield, uncertain, but likely to be very common - the entire Necron civilization effectively put themselves into chronal stasis for sixty million years, so they're used to applying it on a large scale. The fast-time function is probably much more limited, but they do have it and would make use of it where they could.

Since they're immortal, the fast time function would serve as a weak intelligence amplifier. You can take your time considering your tactical decisions when you don't have to make snap decisions because they aren't snap any more.
You would expect not just faster starship construction, but less logistical and military errors.

The civilization stasis thing, is that a major infrastructure project or did they just metaphorically lash together a few bamboo poles with an antenna?


You mentioned offensive nanotech. Is that sabotage thing or are the nanotech field fabricators like the ones I had the Culture do?

[Forum Explorer]

Since they're immortal, the fast time function would serve as a weak intelligence amplifier. You can take your time considering your tactical decisions when you don't have to make snap decisions because they aren't snap any more.
You would expect not just faster starship construction, but less logistical and military errors.

The civilization stasis thing, is that a major infrastructure project or did they just metaphorically lash together a few bamboo poles with an antenna?


You mentioned offensive nanotech. Is that sabotage thing or are the nanotech field fabricators like the ones I had the Culture do?

They've used nanotech called something scarabs to rewrite their enemies brains during battle to gain cannon fodder. (Mindjack? Brain something? Ugh memory fail.)

Fast time needs a little trust because I don't think you can activate it on yourself only on others (to put it another way the device can't be fast timed by itself.) Thus you need to trust whoever is using it to not kill you by just flash aging you til you've gone insane.

On the other hand they can give orders that can't be disobeyed so I suppose it's easy enough to work around. I certainly haven't heard of Necrons suffering from logistical errors.

[jseah]

Fast time needs a little trust because I don't think you can activate it on yourself only on others (to put it another way the device can't be fast timed by itself.) Thus you need to trust whoever is using it to not kill you by just flash aging you til you've gone insane.

How is that supposed to be a problem? The Necrons are certainly advanced enough to delay the activation of a device after you press a big red button.

Press it, walk into the field, field goes on. Think. Walk out.

[The Glyphstone]

Mindshackle scarabs can take forcible control of organic creatures by infiltrating and overriding their nervous systems, and bloodswarm scarabs generate an artificial homing-beacon-like signal that Flayed One packs are drawn to (Necron warriors driven mad by the psychic death curse of a C'tan, they kill enemies with claws and 'wear' their shredded skins). Royalty-level leaders wear 'Phylacteries' that contain nano-scale scarabs programmed to repair them. It's not elaborated on how widely they use such things in general use, though.

They (the necrons) also have sidearm-scale anti-matter weapons, FWIW.

[Forum Explorer]

How is that supposed to be a problem? The Necrons are certainly advanced enough to delay the activation of a device after you press a big red button.

Press it, walk into the field, field goes on. Think. Walk out.

It's a small problem. The problem isn't getting into the field it's making sure the field turns off. Basically it creates a very small moment of vulnerability for someone to exploit by ensuring the field stays on.

[jseah]

last post for me today.

They (the necrons) also have sidearm-scale anti-matter weapons, FWIW.

>.>

You mean anti-matter powered weapons?

Coz a sidearm that shoots anti-matter sounds distinctly unhealthy for everything within a couple of miles. And if the Necrons can survive that, they can survive anything the IoM can throw at them.

[The Glyphstone]

last post for me today.

>.>

You mean anti-matter powered weapons?

Coz a sidearm that shoots anti-matter sounds distinctly unhealthy for everything within a couple of miles. And if the Necrons can survive that, they can survive anything the IoM can throw at them.

I guess?

PARTICLE WEAPONS
These weapons emit a stream of miniscule anti-matter particles that detonate on contact with other matter. They are incredibly reliable, requiring only enough energy to maintain the containment field that prevents the anti-matter from detonating within the weapon's mechanism.

So they do, indeed, shoot antimatter, but very, very teeny-tiny amounts of such. Antimatter does make a big boom, but when you're dealing with amounts on the order of milligrams or nanograms, it's not that much worse than a more conventional gun, just far more efficient.

[Selrahc]

On Chronootech: Remember it isn't just the necrons that have that junk. IoM and Eldar have it too. We see it in things like stasis fields and grenades. The Harlequin Solitaires use it to hyper accelerate and make short teleport jumps around the battlefield. The IoM has some very blunt force stasis grenades and fields, which have a habit of scary malfunctioning.

Necrons have by far the most advanced demonstrations of the tech, but the Culture has probably encountered it in their dealings with the Eldar and Imperium.

[The Glyphstone]

On Chronootech: Remember it isn't just the necrons that have that junk. IoM and Eldar have it too. We see it in things like stasis fields and grenades. The Harlequin Solitaires use it to hyper accelerate and make short teleport jumps around the battlefield. The IoM has some very blunt force stasis grenades and fields, which have a habit of scary malfunctioning.

Necrons have by far the most advanced demonstrations of the tech, but the Culture has probably encountered it in their dealings with the Eldar and Imperium.

Not yet, but they might. Stasis grenades are pricelessly rare - even in Deathwatch, where questions of supply are requisition are answered in 'yes, how much do you want' - they're only handed out for very specific missions. Harlequins have a lot more of it, but they're also incredibly reclusive...it's not impossible that the Culture will never meet a Harlequin, they hardly ever even show themselves to Eldar. So Necrons have it in both capability and volume to significant degrees, making it much more likely they'll see Necron chronotech before anyone else's.

[Misery Esquire]

On Chronootech: Remember it isn't just the necrons that have that junk. IoM and Eldar have it too. We see it in things like stasis fields and grenades. The Harlequin Solitaires use it to hyper accelerate and make short teleport jumps around the battlefield. The IoM has some very blunt force stasis grenades and fields, which have a habit of scary malfunctioning.

Necrons have by far the most advanced demonstrations of the tech, but the Culture has probably encountered it in their dealings with the Eldar and Imperium.

The IoM also has a love of Stasis Fields for preserving anything of "historical" importance. ...Okay, pretty much anything to do with the Emperor gets one, if they want it. (Original Rogue Trader certificates, etc) And the AdMech probably have thier own private stockpiles.

[The Glyphstone]

Right, those too. So IoM has more stasis tech than Eldar, but is decidedly more primitive - for the most part only binary on-off stasis fields, they can't accelerate time like Harlequins, nor slow/speed up time like the Necrons.

I picture the Minds having a field day when they finally get around to figuring this stuff out - a branch of science they've never even conceived of, let alone explored and researched to death, it'll be like Christmas to them.

[Gavinfoxx]

What would happen, if say, the Culture provided "mysteriously" a way to mass-produce archeotech quality stuff?

That depends on so many factors! Is it actual atomic-level copies of existing archeotech? Does it follow the patterns of STC designs in existing archeotech? Who is being provided this stuff? Who does this threaten? What exactly is being provided? How much maintenance and training does it take to use? What is the method by which it is being provided? Is this intended as a concerted effort to break the ad mech's monopoly on technology?

"Those things? Oh, they can't be the real Necrons, we're looking for the guys who made them. These things are just toys. Someone's been littering HSes around here."

Remember that Orks are also Strategic HS's designed by a super-culture. Also, The Culture would probably be able to fathom the idea that the HSes in this galaxy are the remnants of one or more extinct or ascended supercultures -- they have no reason to assume that the supercultures are completely intact in a way that they can find, though they would no doubt go looking!

You mean anti-matter powered weapons?

Coz a sidearm that shoots anti-matter sounds distinctly unhealthy for everything within a couple of miles.

Do note that this setting, like star trek, distinctly underestimates the size of a boom that weaponry with particular flavors or descriptions should, by what it is described as doing, actually cause... you might want to take that into account...

[The Glyphstone]

In fact, the Orks are more of a HS than the Necrons ever were. The Necrontyr were a mortal race that was on the verge of a singularity until they made the mistake of crossing an actual post-singularity society (the Old Ones) and promptly got the tar kicked out of them. The post-singularity (more like semi-ascended, godlike individually but without a unified society) C'tan came along and forged a devil's deal with the beaten-down Necrons, turning them into immortal warriors in exchange for the energy-beings being able to feast on their discarded souls. The combined Necron-C'tan alliance promptly went and thrashed the Old Ones (the codex describes the C'tan singlehandedly 'razing planets, extinguishing suns, and sucking entire solar systems into black holes'), eventually wiping them out- at which point the Silent King led the Necrons in revolt, shattering the C'tan one by one and imprisoning their indestructible shards in dimensional prisons.

The Orks, on the other hand, were specifically engineered and designed from the start as a strategic HS - in fact, one meant to fight the Necrons. They outlived the death of the Old Ones, and the sleep of the Necrons, cheerfully going about their genetically coded imperatives with no one to tell them otherwise.

Oh, and the Tyranids are in fact a near-literal HS, and an extragalactic one at that. Can't wait to see how the Culture tries to categorize them, even if the solution is inevitably "Gridfire with extreme prejudice".

[Gavinfoxx]

Here's a question -- if someone in the Culture eventually wanted to un-HS, say, Orks... what would they change them to? Terraformers? They'd make solid terraformers of planets, being designed with that in mind -- the diversity of the orkoid biosphere would need to be increased, though, to take the needs of other species (and the maintenance of existing biospheres, I suppose) into account...

[Tiki Snakes]

Orks...who aren't Orky? They'd have to be different enough that the distinction between doing that and genocide is pretty slim.

They'd be whatever and however you like at that point, given you'd basically have to design them from scratch.

Orks are made for two things. Fightin and Winnin.

[The Glyphstone]

\
Do note that this setting, like star trek, distinctly underestimates the size of a boom that weaponry with particular flavors or descriptions should, by what it is described as doing, actually cause... you might want to take that into account...

Though here they might have accidentally got it almost right. Assuming 100% energy conversion and using E=mc^2, 1 nanogram of antimatter would have a total energy value of 90,000 joules. A hit from a single .50 BMG carries 15,000 joules by comparison, so while micro-scale antimatter guns would still pack a ridiculous punch, they are hardly deadly for everything within a miles-wide radius.

Orks...who aren't Orky? They'd have to be different enough that the distinction between doing that and genocide is pretty slim.

They'd be whatever and however you like at that point, given you'd basically have to design them from scratch.

Orks are made for two things. Fightin and Winnin.

Pretty much. War is hard-coded into their genetic structure, to the point where undoing it would basically be starting from scratch. It'd be less work to just exterminate them, and if that's not an option, find some way to make use of them.

[Gavinfoxx]

Orks...who aren't Orky? They'd have to be different enough that the distinction between doing that and genocide is pretty slim.

They'd be whatever and however you like at that point, given you'd basically have to design them from scratch.

Orks are made for two things. Fightin and Winnin.

Yea, it might be similar to xenocide... or it might be 'uplifting'. If you are taking a sentient/sapient series of bioengineered weapons, and giving them a choice on whether or not to be a weapon... is that xenocide?

It sounds like a plot arc from Doctor Who, actually...


I will mention, though... that even Tyranids have sentients/sapients amongst the swarm. You'd have to find the right beings, but there are intelligences that can be contacted. So Tyranids are a top-down set of swarm intelligences, and there's a hypothesis that Orks are a bottom-up set of swarm intelligences...

[The Glyphstone]

Yea, it might be similar to xenocide... or it might be 'uplifting'. If you are taking a sentient/sapient series of bioengineered weapons, and giving them a choice on whether or not to be a weapon... is that xenocide?

It sounds like a plot arc from Doctor Who, actually...

How much of a choice is it, though? For an Ork to even be able to comprehend the idea of an existence not based around 'fightin' and winnin'', you'd already have to make major changes to their inherent psychology.

[Forum Explorer]

Here's a question -- if someone in the Culture eventually wanted to un-HS, say, Orks... what would they change them to? Terraformers? They'd make solid terraformers of planets, being designed with that in mind -- the diversity of the orkoid biosphere would need to be increased, though, to take the needs of other species (and the maintenance of existing biospheres, I suppose) into account...

You couldn't. Orks literally grow off of fighting and warfare. Without it they'll just develop into non-sentient moss.

Yea, it might be similar to xenocide... or it might be 'uplifting'. If you are taking a sentient/sapient series of bioengineered weapons, and giving them a choice on whether or not to be a weapon... is that xenocide?

It sounds like a plot arc from Doctor Who, actually...


I will mention, though... that even Tyranids have sentients/sapients amongst the swarm. You'd have to find the right beings, but there are intelligences that can be contacted. So Tyranids are a top-down set of swarm intelligences, and there's a hypothesis that Orks are a bottom-up set of swarm intelligences...

Again you kinda can't. Sure there are intelligent individuals, but they are absolutely subservient to the overall Hive Mind which seeks nothing but to devour everything.

[Selrahc]

How much of a choice is it, though? For an Ork to even be able to comprehend the idea of an existence not based around 'fightin' and winnin'', you'd already have to make major changes to their inherent psychology.

Depends how canonical old ork books are... Gorkamorka and the first descriptions of Ork society have large subsections that are more devoted to non-combat activities. Brewerz, Bankaz, Diggaz, squig-herders.. there is a certain degree of kulture behind the Orkish war machine in the old days. Those boyz are willing to join the mob if needed, but will generally be spending their days out of combat.

Even based just on the Orks that definitely still exist? Speed Freaks have a pretty benign version of Orkish war fixation. They want to go really fast. Meks want to build really crazy gubbins. Gretchins and Snotlings don't want to fight at all. It's possible that you could reroute Orkish kulture down a more benign path. But the presence of an external objective force pushing them into standard orkish patterns mean it would be very difficult, and would probably involve a warp-war against the Waaaagh and it's GorknMork avatars.

[The Glyphstone]

Tyranids don't recognize the concept of individuals. They're a distributed intelligence (the Hive Mind), it just concentrates more densely in certain leader-organisms for efficient direction of the animalistic swarms. Generally bigger = more intelligent, but one Hive Tyrant is psychologically and mentally identical to every other Hive Tyrant that's ever existed.

Depends how canonical old ork books are... Gorkamorka and the first descriptions of Ork society have large subsections that are more devoted to non-combat activities. Brewerz, Bankaz, Diggaz, squig-herders.. there is a certain degree of kulture behind the Orkish war machine in the old days. Those boyz are willing to join the mob if needed, but will generally be spending their days out of combat.

Even based just on the Orks that definitely still exist? Speed Freaks have a pretty benign version of Orkish war fixation. They want to go really fast. Meks want to build really crazy gubbins. Gretchins and Snotlings don't want to fight at all. It's possible that you could reroute Orkish kulture down a more benign path. But the presence of an external objective force pushing them into standard orkish patterns mean it would be very difficult, and would probably involve a warp-war against the Waaaagh and it's GorknMork avatars.

Okay, fair enough. So it'd be technically possible, but yes, extremely difficult, compounded by the fact that to accomplish it, the Culture would be fighting on the worst possible ground for them, the Warp. But hey, it's a more interesting story if they have actual challenges to overcome.

[Selrahc]

Tyranids don't recognize the concept of individuals. They're a distributed intelligence (the Hive Mind), it just concentrates more densely in certain leader-organisms for efficient direction of the animalistic swarms. Generally bigger = more intelligent, but one Hive Tyrant is psychologically and mentally identical to every other Hive Tyrant that's ever existed.

Swarmlord says no.

[The Glyphstone]

Swarmlord says no.

Whazza Swarmlord? Is that the Genestealer HQ choice?

[Selrahc]

Whazza Swarmlord? Is that the Genestealer HQ choice?

Nope. Hive Tyrant special character, with extra cunning.
But the implication in the codex he appeared in was that the Tyrants do have distinct personalities that are saved within the swarm mind. Regrown and reborn for situations they will be of use for.

[Gavinfoxx]

Aren't there several sentient varieties of tyranids?

Like all of the ones that are called 'synapse' creatures, as well as most of the bio-titans and larger breeds? Maybe some of the bio-ships? Iunno...