Base Class Challenge Chat Thread III: Gotta 'Brew 'Em All!

[Xhosant]

First seal finished and 2nd seal added! Anyone wanna PEACH?

I'm having a little trouble with the third seal, Pestilence, although I was thinking limited divine casting and a debilitation focus.

[Zaydos]

First seal finished and 2nd seal added! Anyone wanna PEACH?

I'm having a little trouble with the third seal, Pestilence, although I was thinking limited divine casting and a debilitation focus.

With the first seal you learn 1 maneuver or stance per level is this per level of maneuver (1-9) or per level of class? If the latter how many of these can you have readied at a time and can you recover them? You'd end up with 17 maneuvers known and 4 stances (16/5 if you want every White Raven stance). Also how does using White Raven maneuvers with a bow interact with maneuvers that require you to charge?

Also the DC to end the rage effect should probably be 10 + 1/2 Class level + Str as is normal for non-PrC abilities.

Status update: Need to make 1 more invocation before I'm willing to start on formatting.

Edit: As for Pestilence/Famine (I thought Pestilence was thought to be the same horseman of Conquest) my ideas for such a theme will become apparent once I've posted invocations.

[Xhosant]

With the first seal you learn 1 maneuver or stance per level is this per level of maneuver (1-9) or per level of class? If the latter how many of these can you have readied at a time and can you recover them? You'd end up with 17 maneuvers known and 4 stances (16/5 if you want every White Raven stance). Also how does using White Raven maneuvers with a bow interact with maneuvers that require you to charge?

Also the DC to end the rage effect should probably be 10 + 1/2 Class level + Str as is normal for non-PrC abilities.

Status update: Need to make 1 more invocation before I'm willing to start on formatting.

Edit: As for Pestilence/Famine (I thought Pestilence was thought to be the same horseman of Conquest) my ideas for such a theme will become apparent once I've posted invocations.

You're right on a bunch of points. Recovery mechanic has me stumped, too. Will adapt the dc. And yes, I derped, it's Famine. The reason I went with 'conquest' is that, to my reading, otherwise Death is a beastmaster :-P Plus, I planned to add a diplomacy bonus for Conquest. Maybe refresh maneuvers on Aid Another?

[Beelzebub1111]

Whelp, I finished the framework and advancement figured out, as well as 2/3rds of the fluff reqirement figured out. I need to fill in the crunchy bits and at least 3 more system upgrades.
So far I have Jump Jets, Tarantula Compensators (lessens the penalties for firing the boom gun without digging in), Hidden Blades, Advanced Sensors, Gaze Filter, Finger Laser (which can act as a cutting tool), and a palm ion blaster.

Any suggestions?

EDIT: Oh! CQC Assistance Program: secondary slam attack and combat expertise as a bonus feat?

Edit2: Finished with the fluff. Now the part that I'm worst at, conveying what I want the abilities to be in rules terms. I know what I want them to do, It's just a matter of articulating it.

[Zaydos]

I know nothing about Rifts and Glitterboys so I cannot be of much assistance here.

As for status update: I have the class up, but not the invocations. The invocations will take most of a week, I think, and may count as a novelette. Also anybody got a good idea on how to fluff a invocation-wizard (instead of learning ~12 invocations they'd get to prepare ~8 invocations each day form a list of invocations in their grimoire drawn from various invocations using classes), I might be brainstorming one at this point.

[Beelzebub1111]

The Cosmic path seems to focus a lot on the "Madness" aspect more than "Horrible Things from Beyond the scope of Time and Space". IMHO, it should probably get the ability to call them as their 4th or 5th sign. Maybe a lower level ability could let them consult with the Cosmic pwers for a lore roll or something, since in a couple stories people do communicate with the gods (Nyarlathotep and Yog-Sothoth in particular).

I'm having some trouble wording the Power Armor ability, any help would be appreciated:

Power Armor (Ex): All of the Glitter Boy's class features are derived from his impenetrable powered armor. As armor, it provides a +9 Armor Bonus, +0 Max Dexterity bonus, a -9 armor check penalty, Light Fortification, and a 60% Arcane Spell Failure chance. Weighing 200lbs on its own, It counts as heavy armor, but does not reduce movement speed or count towards encumbrance. Unlike normal armor, it cannot be given an enhancement bonus.

In many ways, the pilot IS the armor. The Glitter Boy's Hit Points are representative as the armor's durability (He still adds his constitution modifier to his hit points per level). As such, he can neither be healed by positive energy nor harmed by negative energy, and does not heal hit points naturally, although a repair damage spell does restore hit points. If reduced to negative hit points the pilot is ejected into the same space as the armor and cannot get back inside until the armor is repaired. Any damage in excess of -10 hit points is dealt to the pilot.

Outside of the power armor, the pilot has a number of hit points equal to his level plus his con modifier(if positive) and follow the normal rules for hit points, damage, healing, and death. His base attack bonus outside of his armor is equal to half his level. The pilot may wear padded armor comfortably inside of his power armor, but nothing heavier.

The pilot can sleep inside of his power armor (The armor stands on its own), but must spend at least one hour per week doing calisthenic exercises or suffer muscle atrophy. This manifests as a cumulative -1 penalty to his strength score per week that he doesn't exercise. This penalty is restored at a rate of 1 per week each week that he exercises or all at once via a restoration spell. If his real strength score reaches zero, he is paralyzed when outside of his power armor until he receives a restoration spell.

And before anyone mentions the "no enhancement bonus" thing, I will compensate for that with another ability. don't worry.

[r2d2go]

The Cosmic path seems to focus a lot on the "Madness" aspect more than "Horrible Things from Beyond the scope of Time and Space". IMHO, it should probably get the ability to call them as their 4th or 5th sign. Maybe a lower level ability could let them consult with the Cosmic pwers for a lore roll or something, since in a couple stories people do communicate with the gods (Nyarlathotep and Yog-Sothoth in particular).

I'm having some trouble wording the Power Armor ability, any help would be appreciated:

And before anyone mentions the "no enhancement bonus" thing, I will compensate for that with another ability. don't worry.

Honestly, all of that was perfectly understandable to me, though there were a few grammar/punctuation things I threw in. I started to describe the changes I might make to make the whole hit-point thing clearer, then realized it'd be easier just to show you

"In many ways, the pilot IS the armor. The Glitter Boy's Hit Points are calculated normally, but represent his armor's durability rather than his own fortitude. As such, he can neither be healed by positive energy nor harmed by negative energy, and does not heal hit points naturally, although a repair damage spell does restore hit points. If reduced to negative hit points, the pilot is ejected into the same space as the armor and cannot get back inside until the armor is repaired. Any damage in excess of -10 hit points is dealt to the pilot.

Outside of the power armor, the pilot has a number of hit points equal to his level plus his con modifier (if positive), and follows the normal rules for hit points, damage, healing, and death. His base attack bonus outside of his armor is equal to half his level. The pilot may wear padded armor comfortably inside of his power armor, but nothing heavier."

I mean, in a game with stubborn munchkins, the strict RAW might be (pointlessly) argued, but the RAI is very clear.

Edit: Also put my specializations in spoilers. Of course, then I realized my class was nowhere near as expansive as Zaydos', but eh

[Beelzebub1111]

Thanks fot the help. And yeah, it can be hard to compete with Zaydos when it comes to sheer volume.

[Xhosant]

Also how does using White Raven maneuvers with a bow interact with maneuvers that require you to charge?

When a maneuver specifies that you must charge, you may instead take a single shot as a full-round action, treated for all intents and purposes as a charge (and treating the hit opponent as having suffered a charge).

Does that look ok?

I halved maneuvers to 1 every even level (plus the level 1 pair), no refreshing and all begin readied. That should mean at level 20, the horseman has no more than 10 strikes for the encounter, many of which are low-level. It shouldn't be too strong, and using the Official Unofficial Swordsage Refresh should keep it relevant, if the player finds his maneuvers to be few.

Onwards to Famine!

EDIT: Third seal ready, kinda worried about the balance of the late-level component. If that means strong or weak, I don't know. How is all of it, power-wise?

[Zaydos]

Does that look ok?

I halved maneuvers to 1 every even level (plus the level 1 pair), no refreshing and all begin readied. That should mean at level 20, the horseman has no more than 10 strikes for the encounter, many of which are low-level. It shouldn't be too strong, and using the Official Unofficial Swordsage Refresh should keep it relevant, if the player finds his maneuvers to be few.

Onwards to Famine!

EDIT: Third seal ready, kinda worried about the balance of the late-level component. If that means strong or weak, I don't know. How is all of it, power-wise?

Looks good.

As for the third seal, I'd say it looks weaker than the first and second. 1 point of ability damage (2 on a crit) each round is not much especially with a save negates, although I'm not completely sure what "and other modifiers as such." means; I assume this doesn't mean Str mod to damage or weapon enhancement but do you have any examples as to what it might include (valorous weapon perhaps, and spirited charge perhaps)? Overall, though, a wounding weapon (a +2 enhancement) seems to top this and while using this you aren't using your Summon Nature's Ally and White Raven Maneuvers or your Full BAB and rage both of which I'd select over this. The exhaustion/sickening effects are good however, and might make up for it at 15th level but I do need to ask if I am making a full attack with my seal weapon can I apply the fatigue/exhaustion effect to each hit? Reading it I'd think so, but just wanted to double check. The sickening effect plus their exhaustion ability gives the target some good debuffs (-5 to hit and damage, -2 to saves, -3 to AC, etc) but will only work for one or two encounters per day, exhaustion will work all day (15 rounds at 15th level, 30 of fatigue) which can make up for it some but I'm still leaning on picking War or Conquest over it as my go to. Also I would suggest that the scales should act as some sort of flail instead of a mace.

[Xhosant]

[...]although I'm not completely sure what "and other modifiers as such." means; I assume this doesn't mean Str mod to damage or weapon enhancement but do you have any examples as to what it might include[...]

The 'double damage on a mounted charge' that heavy lances, and thus all Seal Weapons, benefit from, for one. Would you recommend I raise the base to 2?

[...] I do need to ask if I am making a full attack with my seal weapon can I apply the fatigue/exhaustion effect to each hit? Reading it I'd think so, but just wanted to double check. The sickening effect [...]

Sure you can, but you're likely draining rounds too fast at this point. Also, just realized I wrote sickened, that was meant to be Nauseated. How does the balance shift that way?

[...]Also I would suggest that the scales should act as some sort of flail instead of a mace.

Wanted to mimic rods, but that does make sense. I'll find the stats and work on that.

Do you think adapting the numbers can save the seal, or should I go back to the drawing board (if only to add stuff?)?

[Zaydos]

The 'double damage on a mounted charge' that heavy lances, and thus all Seal Weapons, benefit from, for one. Would you recommend I raise the base to 2?



Sure you can, but you're likely draining rounds too fast at this point. Also, just realized I wrote sickened, that was meant to be Nauseated. How does the balance shift that way?



Wanted to mimic rods, but that does make sense. I'll find the stats and work on that.

Do you think adapting the numbers can save the seal, or should I go back to the drawing board (if only to add stuff?)?

So spirited charge and other multipliers. That can get high (valorous weapon + spirited charge = x4) but at that point your damage is getting high enough that you can one-shot things anyway (Shock Trooper PA for max). I think 2 would probably be better due to the saving throw and put it more on an even level with other seals.

Also Nauseated is a much stronger effect than Sickened. You might want to allow a save to resist the nauseating effect and limit it to being applied via one attack each round as nausea pretty much completely shuts down an opponent for the duration (no attacks, spells, or standard actions). Throw a save on it and limit it to one attempt/round and it makes it an upgrade on the older two seals. Still probably only locking down one or two encounters.

And even spamming the exhaustion unless you're applying it to multiple targets at once you'll be fine as most encounters last <4 rounds and you have 4 rounds of exhaustion for 4 encounters as soon as you get the ability. Now if you exhaust a whole enemy force you'll run out but that just means you don't use it on mooks and puts in some strategic thought.

Edit: Also status update: 23 Least Invocations posted. 30 to go; I intend to finish them today or tomorrow.

[Xhosant]

Also Nauseated is a much stronger effect than Sickened. You might want to allow a save to resist the nauseating effect and limit it to being applied via one attack each round as nausea pretty much completely shuts down an opponent for the duration (no attacks, spells, or standard actions). Throw a save on it and limit it to one attempt/round and it makes it an upgrade on the older two seals. Still probably only locking down one or two encounters.

I was thinking that the 5 rounds/day offset that, as you can shut down a single enemy for much of a single encounter, or give a free round to your party once a day. I'll add a save, but it'll be high-ish. Base 14 instead of 10, for example? Or would 12 do the trick?

[Beelzebub1111]

Almost done. just need to write up the rules for Boom Gun Rounds, Special Ammunition and Equipment, and the individual System Upgrades.

I'm really excited to start on the upgrades. One in particular that can be summed up in four words that put either a smile or a grimace on any player familiar with rifts: "Automatic Body-Flip/Throw"

[Zaydos]

I think I officially went overboard here. I've posted 33 of their invocations (~1/6th) and filled up a post already... Only 150 left to go

[Temotei]

I think I officially went overboard here. I've posted 33 of their invocations (~1/6th) and filled up a post already... Only 150 left to go

Good to see you haven't fallen into the clutches of brevity.

Actually, though.

[Zaydos]

Good to see you haven't fallen into the clutches of brevity.

Actually, though.

Well I've got no wit so I've got to do something I intend to finish Leasts today. Start lesser invocations tomorrow.

Once I'm don I'm going to be looking at Xoriat creatures, Quori, and Far Spawn to replace the Lv 12 Cosmic power with the ability to summon so many times per day (taking progressively less time as you level) or maybe as some sort of animal companion-esque pet (although probably weaker CR-wise than an animal companion/level appropriate summon monster in that case).

[Beelzebub1111]

Well I've got no wit so I've got to do something I intend to finish Leasts today. Start lesser invocations tomorrow.

Once I'm don I'm going to be looking at Xoriat creatures, Quori, and Far Spawn to replace the Lv 12 Cosmic power with the ability to summon so many times per day (taking progressively less time as you level) or maybe as some sort of animal companion-esque pet (although probably weaker CR-wise than an animal companion/level appropriate summon monster in that case).

Well I would recommend starting with the Fiend Folio. Definitely some lovecraftian brood in there. Rukanyr come to mind.

[Jormengand]

Zaydos, are you done reserving posts? I was thinking of making an entry, but want to make sure I'm not splitting yours up.

[Zaydos]

Zaydos, are you done reserving posts? I was thinking of making an entry, but want to make sure I'm not splitting yours up.

I think I am. Go ahead, they'll all be linked into single posts when the voting thread comes anyway.

Edit: Added an extra one just as an extra precaution that probably won't be needed.

[r2d2go]

I think I'm going to expand on my class with a second post with advanced specializations. Before, I had sort of have Fighter, Rogue (in combat), Monk, Wizard, Cleric and a sort of jack of all trades (but not quite bard). I just added a ranged-dex based class, what is essentially druid, something like a barbarian, and what is essentially paladin. I also keep slipping up and adding inconsistent gender pronouns so if I missed any of those, it'd be awesome if you could tell me

[Zaydos]

And done with Least invocations! Doomsayer is now fully playable up to Lv 5. Will post Lesser invocations (tonight and) tomorrow and possibly the next day.

Edit: Should Doomsayers get Diplomacy and/or Gather Information as class skills? I currently have Gather Info for "information gatherer" purposes and not Diplomacy (although they can get bonuses to this through Invocations to let them stay relevant with the skill -Beguiling Influence and Read from the Book of Names giving you a potential +10- at least into mid levels). Trying to decide whether it fits enough, probably doesn't.

[r2d2go]

And done with Least invocations! Doomsayer is now fully playable up to Lv 5. Will post Lesser invocations (tonight and) tomorrow and possibly the next day.

Edit: Should Doomsayers get Diplomacy and/or Gather Information as class skills? I currently have Gather Info for "information gatherer" purposes and not Diplomacy (although they can get bonuses to this through Invocations to let them stay relevant with the skill -Beguiling Influence and Read from the Book of Names giving you a potential +10- at least into mid levels). Trying to decide whether it fits enough, probably doesn't.

I think Diplomacy would be more fitting than Gather Information, honestly. The opening flavor describes knowledge of the world's end as supernatural, while also describing some doomsayers that try to warn others of the end. They shouldn't have to gather info, since what they need to know is supernaturally ingrained, while skill at diplomacy would make it easier to convince people that the end is nigh.

[Beelzebub1111]

I don't know about diplomacy. Perform(Oratory) seems more thematically appropriate.

How much should a Boom Gun round weigh? They're metal canisters filled with 200 steel slugs.The player is expected to carry 100-120 of them at a time, but their strength is a minimum of 18 and they have powerful build.

[Zaydos]

For now I'm leaving off Diplomacy and Gather Information, but putting on Perform (Oratory) and remembering I need to actually add Truespeak when they have class features that can use it (I'm not sure it's worth investing in for this purpose but it is an option for extra effect from certain invocations).

As for status update: 80% finished with Lesser Invocations and continuing to take more room than expected (through over 3 posts at this point and only about half done with invocations).

Moving on. Well I'd say they should from the description probably each weigh more than 20 arrows (3 lbs) but that puts them as being encumbered by the rounds alone (300-360 lbs of rounds; Large biped can carry 200 lbs unencumbered at 18 strength).

[ben-zayb]

And done with Least invocations! Doomsayer is now fully playable up to Lv 5. Will post Lesser invocations (tonight and) tomorrow and possibly the next day.

Whoa, that's a lot, chief! Looking at the Doomsayer, I see certain similarities mechanically (and design concept) with my planned class, except yours looks more fleshed out and have more options. Hmm... I should probably come up with another concept.

[dragonjek]

Oh, wow. Your Doomsayer might even be bigger than the Harbinger's turning out to be.

45 Aspects of the Apocalypse, each with their own class skills, good/bad saves, and personalized spell list, one Masque ("Behold my true form and DESPAIR!"), two auras (one continuous, one with a limited use/day), two different abilities regarding sundering, and at least 20 Influences to choose from each, with a couple universal Influences for every Aspect. Also, at least 3 feats per Aspect, and at least 5 available for any Harbinger to choose.

And I also have at least six monsters, seven spells, and seven archetypes I need to make for it.

I'm barely halfway there...

[Xhosant]

Oh, wow. Your Doomsayer might even be bigger than the Harbinger's turning out to be.

45 Aspects of the Apocalypse, each with their own class skills, good/bad saves, and personalized spell list, one Masque ("See my true form and DESPAIR!"), two auras (one continuous, one with a limited use/day), two different abilities regarding sundering, and at least 20 Influences to choose from each, with a couple universal Influences for every Aspect. Also, at least 3 feats per Aspect, and at least 5 available for any Harbinger to choose.

And I also have at least six monsters, seven spells, and seven archetypes I need to make for it.

I'm barely halfway there...

No worries, you got a whole month ahead! Keep at it! I haven't read through it, but this rundown sounds interesting.



Also, sorry, but this has to be done:

[...]Doomsayer[...]

-"Doom. DOOOOOOOM!"

[Zaydos]

Oh, wow. Your Doomsayer might even be bigger than the Harbinger's turning out to be.

45 Aspects of the Apocalypse, each with their own class skills, good/bad saves, and personalized spell list, one Masque ("See my true form and DESPAIR!"), two auras (one continuous, one with a limited use/day), two different abilities regarding sundering, and at least 20 Influences to choose from each, with a couple universal Influences for every Aspect. Also, at least 3 feats per Aspect, and at least 5 available for any Harbinger to choose.

And I also have at least six monsters, seven spells, and seven archetypes I need to make for it.

I'm barely halfway there...

Mine's just the fact that I have to type out 172 spell effects and those take space. Really the class only has ~230 abilities to choose from (1 choice at level 1 determine which 5 of 40 you get and locks you out of the rest). 45 aspects ought to give you a lot more than that.

I haven't even really started on feats; I know there are some specific invocations I want to make feats for.

And it's the formatting I hate most. I mean I have everything in word where I can understand it, but it's in a kind of author's shorthand, or else in awkwardly long phrasing.

Whoa, that's a lot, chief! Looking at the Doomsayer, I see certain similarities mechanically (and design concept) with my planned class, except yours looks more fleshed out and have more options. Hmm... I should probably come up with another concept.

Ah, but I want to see the Elder Evil class. Besides at high levels they should differentiate quite nicely. While mine can cause societal disruption GIVEN TIME at low levels (bathe in the town water supply and infect it all with disease at 1st, walk through the kingdom's farmlands at render them all infertile for a year at 6th, trap souls in your body eventually destroying them utterly as an attempt to starve the upper planes at 11th, scream and destroy 300-ft cone of the city at 16th, 1 mile wight pulse 3/day at 20th) they kind of cap out and then just start getting better at small scale destruction for the most part (destroy a 300-ft cone, gaze that turns peasants into wights) starting at higher levels. Yours seemed to be going for a more large scale approach sooner with stuff that would blanket miles in darkness and such.

Together they could be quite the Legion of Doom.

[dragonjek]

-"Doom. DOOOOOOOM!"

Doom do-doom doom doom doom...