Bleach VI: We Want Our Baby Bach Ribs (Aizen pull)

[Friv]

What was that a few chapters back where in the mangastream translation Yhwach said Ichigo was his son? Could one of you who know some Japanese comment on that?

IIRC, there was a discussion at the time that the phrase in question could mean "son" or "grandson" or possibly even "male descendent".

[Morph Bark]

Name five classic works. I bet you can't.

Ilias. Odyssee. Georgica. Eclogae. Aeneis.

...your statement never said they had to adhere to the previous requirements, just that they be classic works. D: don't strike me

[Drolyt]

Ilias. Odyssee. Georgica. Eclogae. Aeneis.

...your statement never said they had to adhere to the previous requirements, just that they be classic works. D: don't strike me

I love how we are interpreting classic as "classical art" instead of "art with a timeless quality". Regardless the GMs of the first two obviously hated their players.

[Morph Bark]

I love how we are interpreting classic as "classical art" instead of "art with a timeless quality". Regardless the GMs of the first two obviously hated their players.

Well, that is the original definition of it, so yes. "Classic" originally meant something along the lines of "something from before the fall of Rome that the Romans or Greeks made".

My first thoughts moreso went towards Asian literature, but under that definition, they aren't classics. Plus it was easier to come up with five, as otherwise I'd fall just short of that.

I'm guessing Anteros just meant to refer to manga, rather than the whole of literature, and just ended up getting confused and accidentally putting an erroneous statement down that he didn't originally want to. If not, well, then the statement is still wrong, but if applied only to manga, it's much more suiting.

[The Troubadour]

I think this is part of the reason why an Asauchi couldn't help Ichigo... Zangetsu manifested without an Asauchi.

Hmmm, makes sense.

Name five classic works. I bet you can't.

Hey, this should be fun to try. Let's see:

Elric of Melniboné - In addition to being the most powerful sorcerer in the world by virtue of his talent and knowledge, he is also the rightful ruler of an Ages-old empire, and that allows him to call on favours from a whole host of supernatural creatures, from Animal and Elemental Lords to Demon Princes. Oh, and he also wields a sword that corrects his natural deficiencies, enhances his strength and stamina to probably superhuman levels, and also turns him into the deadliest warrior alive.
In the first book, despite his appearance, his brooding and slightly asocial tendencies and the fact that he once betrayed his companions, ladies still find him compelling, he finds a true friend for life, and at the end of the book he marries a princess and settles down somewhat peacefully. His life goes through the wringer in the sequel and his end isn't exactly a good one (to put it mildly), but he is also the Chosen of Fate and keeps learning new spells and gaining new magical items that lets him go toe-to-toe with Old Gods and Demon Lords.

Conan the Cimmerian - He starts his life out as a young warrior from a barbarian culture, becomes a D&D-type Thief/Rogue, then a pirate captain, then the leader of his own mercenary company (overlaps with the "pirate captain" thing a bit), and finally king. He also started out with much better attributes (the strength and stamina of three men, the grace and speed of a panther, etc.) than most other people, and even when he meets someone that can match him in one thing (strength, usually), he outmatches his opponent in every other aspect. Oh, and he also gets any woman he wants.

Lancelot du Lac - Where to begin? He's the son of a king raised by the Lady of the Lake (who, depending on the version, is either a faerie or "merely" a very magical woman), gains a magical sword and shield, is the best warrior of all (even better than Gawain), is instantly beloved by everyone, and nails the king's wife. Oh, and to add insult to injury, in Mallory's version (if I remember it correctly), when Arthur follows him to Brittany to wage war, it's revealed at one point that Lancelot's armies are so much larger than the king's that he could have destroyed Arthur's host at any moment, and only his loyalty to the king prevented him from doing it.

I'm going to stop at those three (mainly because I'm lazy :-)), but I think "the protagonist being super-special in regards to the setting and getting all kinds of breaks from the plot" is a common enough trope that I'm honestly surprised anyone should give Bleach crap for it.
This doesn't necessarily reflect itself on the quality of the work; the Conan and Elric stories, for example, are very good.

[Turalisj]

I said classic. I would hardly count Conan as a classic.

[thethird]

Conan is a reference piece in the fantasy genre. Morph Bark already covered classic examples... But what would you call classic?

[lord_khaine]

Ok, someone want classic works, how about the Jungle book?
(the real one, not the disney version)

[thethird]

I like Rikki-Tikki-Tavi quite a lot.

[Morph Bark]

Sun Wukong is very easily a good candidate as well, alongside Gilgamesh, among others. Come to think of it, Odysseus is a pretty good example, as he is an accomplished swordsman, archer, sailor and a bunch of other things. Unlike the previous two though, he doesn't possess several different power sets derived from various sources, whereas Ichigo does.

[Tebryn]

I said classic. I would hardly count Conan as a classic.

You'd be in the minority. How about Outlaws of the Marsh, the already mentioned Journey to the West, Lord of the Rings, Tale of Genji and oh I don't know...The Garshāspnāma. What do we win?

[Drolyt]

Well, that is the original definition of it, so yes. "Classic" originally meant something along the lines of "something from before the fall of Rome that the Romans or Greeks made".

I know, I just thought it was funny because that obviously isn't what Anteros meant.

Hey, this should be fun to try. Let's see:

Elric of Melniboné - In addition to being the most powerful sorcerer in the world by virtue of his talent and knowledge, he is also the rightful ruler of an Ages-old empire, and that allows him to call on favours from a whole host of supernatural creatures, from Animal and Elemental Lords to Demon Princes. Oh, and he also wields a sword that corrects his natural deficiencies, enhances his strength and stamina to probably superhuman levels, and also turns him into the deadliest warrior alive.
In the first book, despite his appearance, his brooding and slightly asocial tendencies and the fact that he once betrayed his companions, ladies still find him compelling, he finds a true friend for life, and at the end of the book he marries a princess and settles down somewhat peacefully. His life goes through the wringer in the sequel and his end isn't exactly a good one (to put it mildly), but he is also the Chosen of Fate and keeps learning new spells and gaining new magical items that lets him go toe-to-toe with Old Gods and Demon Lords.

Conan the Cimmerian - He starts his life out as a young warrior from a barbarian culture, becomes a D&D-type Thief/Rogue, then a pirate captain, then the leader of his own mercenary company (overlaps with the "pirate captain" thing a bit), and finally king. He also started out with much better attributes (the strength and stamina of three men, the grace and speed of a panther, etc.) than most other people, and even when he meets someone that can match him in one thing (strength, usually), he outmatches his opponent in every other aspect. Oh, and he also gets any woman he wants.

Lancelot du Lac - Where to begin? He's the son of a king raised by the Lady of the Lake (who, depending on the version, is either a faerie or "merely" a very magical woman), gains a magical sword and shield, is the best warrior of all (even better than Gawain), is instantly beloved by everyone, and nails the king's wife. Oh, and to add insult to injury, in Mallory's version (if I remember it correctly), when Arthur follows him to Brittany to wage war, it's revealed at one point that Lancelot's armies are so much larger than the king's that he could have destroyed Arthur's host at any moment, and only his loyalty to the king prevented him from doing it.

I'm going to stop at those three (mainly because I'm lazy :-)), but I think "the protagonist being super-special in regards to the setting and getting all kinds of breaks from the plot" is a common enough trope that I'm honestly surprised anyone should give Bleach crap for it.
This doesn't necessarily reflect itself on the quality of the work; the Conan and Elric stories, for example, are very good.

Those kind of count, but except for Lancelot they don't really steal the show like Ichigo does, if for no other reason that because they don't really have other main characters to steal it from (at least in the stories I've read; I'm more familiar with Conan than Elric); also Conan doesn't really have a huge powerset, he's just a strong fighter with reasonable intelligence who often defeats stronger opponents by fighting smart. Lancelot on the other hand is worse than Ichigo in some versions of the story, but it really does depend on who's telling the tale.

I said classic. I would hardly count Conan as a classic.

Most would, at least a classic of sword and sorcery.

Sun Wukong is very easily a good candidate as well, alongside Gilgamesh, among others. Come to think of it, Odysseus is a pretty good example, as he is an accomplished swordsman, archer, sailor and a bunch of other things. Unlike the previous two though, he doesn't possess several different power sets derived from various sources, whereas Ichigo does.

I'm not that familiar with Journey to the West, but the other two, while very powerful, don't really have multiple power sets and don't steal the show like Ichigo does. In both there are other very important characters: Enkidu in The Epic of Gilgamesh and Telemachus and Penelope in the Odyssey. Gilgamesh is a great example, although Enkidu's value to the story is mostly his effect on Gilgamesh the fact is he does have a huge effect on him. Ichigo's friends might as well not exist. As for the Odyssey several of the books are devoted to Telemachus and his journey to become a hero like his father.

You'd be in the minority. How about Outlaws of the Marsh, the already mentioned Journey to the West, Lord of the Rings, Tale of Genji and oh I don't know...The Garshāspnāma. What do we win?

You know, no one is mentioning Great American Novels. How about The Great Gatsby, The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn, To Kill a Mockingbird, On the Road, and The Grapes of Wrath?

[danzibr]

Oh! Remember that rule about two shinigami possibly having the same zanpakutou spirit? And in such a case they're supposed to duel for ownership?

I totally bet this is the case for Isshin and Ichigo.

[jindra34]

Oh! Remember that rule about two shinigami possibly having the same zanpakutou spirit? And in such a case they're supposed to duel for ownership?

I totally bet this is the case for Isshin and Ichigo.

You mean from the likely non-canon movie? And the trouble Kubo has keeping stuff that is confirmed canon straight?

[HandofShadows]

Oh! Remember that rule about two shinigami possibly having the same zanpakutou spirit? And in such a case they're supposed to duel for ownership?

I totally bet this is the case for Isshin and Ichigo.

That was filler/movie so it may not be canon. Also Isshin and Ichigo's zanpakuto have different names, similar but different. Zangetsu for Ichigo, Engetsu for Isshin.

[danzibr]

That was filler/movie so it may not be canon. Also Isshin and Ichigo's zanpakuto have different names, similar but different. Zangetsu for Ichigo, Engetsu for Isshin.

Yeah but I was thinkin'... maybe Engetsu is Zangetsu. I mean, they both do Getsuga Tenshou. And Isshin knew of Saigo no Getsuga Tenshou. And Isshin didn't reveal his bankai.

On a side note, I didn't realize that rule wasn't canonical, it all gets muddled up in my brain.

[Anteros]

Honestly, I was referring to the fact that people are actually complaining about the story centering on the protagonist, rather than the multiple power set thing. I thought that was obvious, but I guess I forgot that I was on the internet, where if something can be misinterpreted, it will.

Still, I don't mind listing 5 classics that meet both criteria. Seems amusing. Some of these will have already been mentioned since we're restricting ourselves to only "classics" which is highly subjective.

1. Epic of Gilgamesh. Super special snowflake. 2/3rds divine. Has a plethora of super powers. Everyone loves him. (Enkidu, specifically created by the gods to destroy him becomes his friend.) The story completely centers around Gilgamesh as well. Enkidu actually dies off part way into the story, and serves no purpose other than motivating Gilgamesh. I guess his closest Bleach analogues are Rukia and Orihime.

2. Beowulf. Super special snowflake with the strength of 30 men. Has a multitude of super powers such as limitless endurance and the ability to hold his breath for 9 hours. Gains a magical sword at one point. Is literally the only plot important character in his work.

3. Sun Wukong. This is actually multiple works, but there's no point in counting it more than once. Probably one of the most powerful characters in literature. Has powers that originate from Heaven, Earth, and Hell. Literally becomes a god, decides it isn't good enough, and destroys Heaven. Other characters only exist to be protected or show how powerful Sun Wukong is.

4. Sinbad the Sailor. 7 different journeys. Everyone always die except Sinbad, who is ultimately rewarded for his valor, power, and intelligence. Every time. He doesn't really have different power sources, but he does receive divine intervention on his behalf. A lot.

5. I was going to put the Ramayana here...but I'm a bit worried that it would break the real world religions rule. I imagine everyone is familiar with it anyway.

There are of course, literally hundreds of pieces of literature who could fit this trope. I tried to pick only ones that no one could dispute were classics though.

[VanBuren]

You'd be in the minority.

[citation needed]

Or possibly irrelevant, since there's no clear-cut definition as to what constitutes a classic. I'd argue that the Western Canon is the closest we have to an "objective" measure*--though the Western Canon has its glaring flaws as well. Beyond that it gets entirely subjective.

*Although, I suppose we could just hardline this and exclude anything outside of Greece and Rome.

[Drolyt]

[citation needed]

Or possibly irrelevant, since there's no clear-cut definition as to what constitutes a classic. I'd argue that the Western Canon is the closest we have to an "objective" measure*--though the Western Canon has its glaring flaws as well. Beyond that it gets entirely subjective.

*Although, I suppose we could just hardline this and exclude anything outside of Greece and Rome.

The Western Canon isn't even set in stone, there are several relativity authoritative lists, and although they share many works most are light on recent works (recent meaning the entire 20th and 21st centuries). The problem is, while there is a core group of books that (almost) all authorities on the subject agree on, it is commonly accepted that the term classic isn't limited to that small set. Still, within the speculative fiction community, if not the broader literary community, Conan the Barbarian is widely considered a classic, and I'm not sure what other measure counts.

[VanBuren]

The Western Canon isn't even set in stone, there are several relativity authoritative lists, and although they share many works most are light on recent works (recent meaning the entire 20th and 21st centuries). The problem is, while there is a core group of books that (almost) all authorities on the subject agree on, it is commonly accepted that the term classic isn't limited to that small set. Still, within the speculative fiction community, if not the broader literary community, Conan the Barbarian is widely considered a classic, and I'm not sure what other measure counts.

But the context of the discussion indicated that what was being discussed was the broader literary community. Furthermore, it also didn't fit the definition of "classic" held by the requester. I think those are both important measures.

And yeah, I'm not surprised that 20th and 21st century literature doesn't have a great deal of "classic" work. You gotta let it stand the test of time, and all.

[Tebryn]

[citation needed]

Or possibly irrelevant, since there's no clear-cut definition as to what constitutes a classic. I'd argue that the Western Canon is the closest we have to an "objective" measure*--though the Western Canon has its glaring flaws as well. Beyond that it gets entirely subjective.

*Although, I suppose we could just hardline this and exclude anything outside of Greece and Rome.

Would you consider this a metric? http://www.npr.org/2011/08/11/139085...-fantasy-books. Mind you, the entire collection is ranked at 68 but it's still there. A vote of 60,000 people isn't a massive poll but it's still a good sized one all the same.

[VanBuren]

Would you consider this a metric? http://www.npr.org/2011/08/11/139085...-fantasy-books. Mind you, the entire collection is ranked at 68 but it's still there. A vote of 60,000 people isn't a massive poll but it's still a good sized one all the same.

Frankenstein is for sure a classic IMO. And I enjoy a great deal of those books, but less than 100 years out seems like an awful rush to giving them that timeless label. I have no doubt that many if not most of those books will one day be regarded as classics, but I don't know if we can have that kind of perspective so close to them.

But again, this really just proves how not-objective this all is.

[Drolyt]

Frankenstein is for sure a classic IMO. And I enjoy a great deal of those books, but less than 100 years out seems like an awful rush to giving them that timeless label. I have no doubt that many if not most of those books will one day be regarded as classics, but I don't know if we can have that kind of perspective so close to them.

But again, this really just proves how not-objective this all is.

Just to prove how not-obvjective this is, I have to resist the urge to rant about the order. Still, several works on that list are commonly considered classics, not just Frankenstein. 1984, Brave New World, Cat's Cradle, and The Left Hand of Darkness (as well as Frankenstein) are on Harold Bloom's list of the Western Canon for example, and others probably should be.

[Turalisj]

Would you consider this a metric? http://www.npr.org/2011/08/11/139085...-fantasy-books. Mind you, the entire collection is ranked at 68 but it's still there. A vote of 60,000 people isn't a massive poll but it's still a good sized one all the same.

I wouldn't. There's no reason for A Song of Fire and Ice to be on that list, when the series isn't even complete. Not only that, but many of those have hardly been finished long enough to be considered a classic.

[danzibr]

I didn't really want to join into the major derailment this thread has seen (please let it be over when the next chapter comes out), but I have to agree that link is crap for a standard. I wouldn't say metric as that has a very precise mathematical meaning.

[Somewhere]

Viz's translation of Kubo's ToC comment:
"My throat's been in bad shape for a while so I bought a cool mask to cover my mouth. But it makes me look like a Karasu Tengu. (Crow Demon)"

Another quick one this week...

Page 1, middle right panel
Viz: Knowing you... ...I thought you would've said something like.. "He's working his butt off, you can't send him home!"
Panda: I thought Renji-chan.. ..would get all fired up and not allow me.. to send 'im back after he worked so much.
Original: Renji-chan nara hisshi de yatteru koitsu wo kaeraseru nante yuruse (Ne e)!! to ka
sonna koto wo iisouna ki ga ****etandake(Do)

It's not something you see in translation, but Oh-Etsu continues to occasionally have syllables written in Roman alphabet instead of kana, which I put in parentheses. Anyway...

Literally, it's something like "Since it's Renji, I felt/thought that you'd say something like 'Making that guy who tried so desperately return is unallowed/unforgivable'"
I thought it was a bit odd that Panda didn't include the say part, since there is a difference between the physical action of not allow and stating it. And they're usually more literal than this.

Quick one, lower right panel, where Panda has Oh-Etsu saying that no matter how hard you try, it's useless. Viz has him saying that in reference to Ichigo with 'useless no matter how hard he tried'. The original sentence is ambiguous as to the subject, but we can tell from context that he's talking about Ichigo anyway.

Page 13, lower right panel
Panda calls it a city named Narukishi. The shi there is a suffix appended to denote that it's a city, so 'Narukishi'is a city named Naruki.

---

Say, whatever happened to the original spirit imprinted on the asauchi that our Kenpachi looted? For that matter, in the general case of looted zanpakutoh, what happens to the spirit that was there already?

Edit: Oh, yea, as to what Yhwach says to at the end of his appearance? In the raw he says 'Yami ni umareshi', 'waga musuko yo'. The waga musuko part is where he said 'my son'. Whether he's using son in the literal sense or in a more metaphorical sense...

[Hadrian_Emrys]

If I'm not mistaken, the 'soul' of the sword is something like tofu that is 'flavored' by the person who wields it. If Ken jacked the blade before the previous owner could do much for it, that would cover the oddity.

The REAL questions we need to be asking are: 1) Why did Ken pile bodies on top of each other? and 2) Unless he also dragged them from other locations, why were people still coming to the growing pile of corpses in order to meet their doom? Are the people of the spirit ghettos like flies?

[LaZodiac]

If I'm not mistaken, the 'soul' of the sword is something like tofu that is 'flavored' by the person who wields it. If Ken jacked the blade before the previous owner could do much for it, that would cover the oddity.

The REAL questions we need to be asking are: 1) Why did Ken pile bodies on top of each other? and 2) Unless he also dragged them from other locations, why were people still coming to the growing pile of corpses in order to meet their doom? Are the people of the spirit ghettos like flies?

My understanding was that it was Unohana who created that pile of bodies. It always seemed like it was intended as a "oh, oops, I didn't notice that big pile of corpses I made since it was sooooooo boring"

[Morph Bark]

The spirit ghettoes are full of people like Ikkaku, although their heads might be less shiny and more covered with hair. Most of them are much less skilled than he, and by extension Kenpachi.

[Anteros]

Also. Again. What a terrible afterlife. Seriously, a captain just wanders around murdering lots of people cause she's bored and no one even calls her on it?

I think almost everyone in Bleach is evil. In fact, I'm not convinced Aizen isn't the good guy. All he did was try to overthrow soul society...which is an absolutely terrible place.

I mean...characters we can clearly classify as good at this point: Ichigo, Chad, Orihime, Rukia, Renji, and maybe Captains Eyepatch and TB. I'd argue that everyone else is neutral at best, with the majority leaning into evil territory.