Bleach VI: We Want Our Baby Bach Ribs (Aizen pull)

[LaZodiac]

Also. Again. What a terrible afterlife. Seriously, a captain just wanders around murdering lots of people cause she's bored and no one even calls her on it?

I think almost everyone in Bleach is evil. In fact, I'm not convinced Aizen isn't the good guy. All he did was try to overthrow soul society...which is an absolutely terrible place.

I mean...characters we can clearly classify as good at this point: Ichigo, Chad, Orihime, Rukia, Renji, and maybe Captains Eyepatch and TB. I'd argue that everyone else is neutral at best, with the majority leaning into evil territory.

She was quelling a rebellion, if I recall. That was her reasoning atleast. In truth the rebellion was just her excuse to kill people on a quest for strong fighters. It was a real thing, as far as I can tell, but she was involved because she just wanted to find someone strong to fight.

This by no means disproves your point. The Soul Society is kind of a terrible place to live.

[Anteros]

She was quelling a rebellion, if I recall. That was her reasoning atleast. In truth the rebellion was just her excuse to kill people on a quest for strong fighters. It was a real thing, as far as I can tell, but she was involved because she just wanted to find someone strong to fight.

This by no means disproves your point. The Soul Society is kind of a terrible place to live.

The direct quote from the version I read was "for the sake of maintaining peace in soul society, go straighten out those troublemakers in the outskirts of Rukongai". So not a rebellion...just...a police action? A rebellion would actually be understandable.

[Hadrian_Emrys]

A police action that requires mass execution. That sounds like a loving environment.

[Tebryn]

A police action that requires mass execution. That sounds like a loving environment.

Was Soul Society ever made out to be a loving place?

[Hadrian_Emrys]

Not loving, but theoretically better than Hueco Mundo.

-I just don't see it.

[Tebryn]

I think it was all to show that the early days of Soul Society were blood soaked to make order where there was none. I see Soul Society originally like turf wars with Shinigami and their subjects duking it out for farmable land.

[VanBuren]

Not loving, but theoretically better than Hueco Mundo.

-I just don't see it.

If a shinigami kills you, you get to reincarnate. If a Hollow eats you, that may or may not be the end of your existence. Kubo's never really been clear on that.

[Tebryn]

If a shinigami kills you, you get to reincarnate. If a Hollow eats you, that may or may not be the end of your existence. Kubo's never really been clear on that.

He has, your soul becomes part of the Hollow which makes them grow in strength, same as Menos eating other Hollows. It's when Human Souls can no longer give the Hollow it's strength and they turn to other Hollows that they become Menos. What that does when the Hollow dies hasn't been explained. I doubt it ever will be.

[Hadrian_Emrys]

As far as I understood it, only Quincies wiped out the soul. The Hollow just deprives the Shinigami of more powerless subjects to stuff into dirty slums.

[Anteros]

I really, really wanted old man Yamamoto to be the main bad guy in Bleach. Oh well...hopefully it will be the Soul King instead.

[VanBuren]

As far as I understood it, only Quincies wiped out the soul. The Hollow just deprives the Shinigami of more powerless subjects to stuff into dirty slums.

Yeah but, for instance, we've had no word that Masaki went to Soul Society after Isshin killed the Fish.

[Tebryn]

Yeah but, for instance, we've had no word that Masaki went to Soul Society after Isshin killed the Fish.

We wouldn't know even if she did, you're not the same person when you go to Soul Society after you die. And nothing is to say that every soul killed goes to Soul Society once the Hollow is killed. Maybe it's just one soul that has the potential to have higher spiritual pressure and that's where Shinigami come from. It'd be fitting but probably above Kubo's writing ability.

[VanBuren]

We wouldn't know even if she did, you're not the same person when you go to Soul Society after you die. And nothing is to say that every soul killed goes to Soul Society once the Hollow is killed. Maybe it's just one soul that has the potential to have higher spiritual pressure and that's where Shinigami come from. It'd be fitting but probably above Kubo's writing ability.

What? Yes you are. We've seen that multiple times. With the parakeet kid, and then the Fullbring FailSquad. Also, Rukongai is a part of Soul Society. Not everyone who goes there becomes a shinigami.

[Tebryn]

What? Yes you are. We've seen that multiple times. With the parakeet kid, and then the Fullbring FailSquad. Also, Rukongai is a part of Soul Society. Not everyone who goes there becomes a shinigami.

I'm well aware of that, most just stay souls. But those characters are rare. No single Shinigami seems to remember their former lives. Most of the Souls we meet don't seem to remember their former lives either. Those characters seem to be exceptions not the rule. Souls that die in Soul Society become humans without their memories. It seems really odd it'd work different the other way around.

[Anteros]

I think it was all to show that the early days of Soul Society were blood soaked to make order where there was none. I see Soul Society originally like turf wars with Shinigami and their subjects duking it out for farmable land.

That would be an ok argument if we didn't have Mayuri randomly killing thousands of people just here recently without permission.

I'm well aware of that, most just stay souls. But those characters are rare. No single Shinigami seems to remember their former lives. Most of the Souls we meet don't seem to remember their former lives either. Those characters seem to be exceptions not the rule.

How do you know that? Just because they don't talk about their former lives doesn't mean they don't remember them.

[VanBuren]

I'm well aware of that, most just stay souls. But those characters are rare. No single Shinigami seems to remember their former lives. Most of the Souls we meet don't seem to remember their former lives either. Those characters seem to be exceptions not the rule.

Have we actually met any souls that didn't explicitly remember besides the shinigami? The admittedly non-canon movie explicitly says that Soul Reapers don't remember, and the manga hasn't shown us anything to contradict that.

Also even if we accept that, Masaki is Quincy-blood. Are you honestly going to claim that she wouldn't remember but a random kid would?

[Turalisj]

As far as I understood it, only Quincies wiped out the soul. The Hollow just deprives the Shinigami of more powerless subjects to stuff into dirty slums.

It can easily be inferred, from the Hueco Mundo arc, that when a Hollow devours a soul, that soul is taken apart into reishi and absorbed into their being. Hence why getting a chunk taken out of you means you can never become a Vastos Lordes and why that 8th espada guy could mimic the appearance of spirits he devoured- their "spirit dna" was a part of him.

And you are missing a great deal of context for the Soul Society. It is fixed into a feudal society because it does not have any rival societies in which change can be brought about. Until Ichigo came along, there was no one with enough power and determination to shake things up and change things.

[Tebryn]

That would be an ok argument if we didn't have Mayuri randomly killing thousands of people just here recently without permission.

No one said the killings stopped, but they're certainly less than before.

How do you know that? Just because they don't talk about their former lives doesn't mean they don't remember them.

They don't remember their lives in Soul Society when they're reborn as humans. It just seems...unlikely that it'd work differently the other way around. The Official Character Book Souls. page 96, mentions the above. It seems odd that people would live a totally -new- life for all intents and purposes if they remember their old ones. Yūichi Shibata seems a unique case while the Fullbringers are probably...plot.

[Turalisj]

Some people do remember their lives back in the living world. Apparently, if you have enough spiritual power while living, you keep your memories.

[The Troubadour]

My understanding was that it was Unohana who created that pile of bodies.

Naw, it was Kenpachi.

Also. Again. What a terrible afterlife. Seriously, a captain just wanders around murdering lots of people cause she's bored and no one even calls her on it?

Not only did that not happen, but there are a lot of nuances you seem to have missed.

1) The Thirteen Squads, as their name implies, are a military organization, with everything that it implies. Only, unlike real-world militaries, you can't ever retire and you can't ever win the war; there will always be Hollows for the Shinigami to fight, and the only way out for them is to die - in which case they probably won't even reincarnate to a human life, since they'll be eaten.
This probably explains things like the husband of Tousen's friend not being punished for murder: the 13 Squads need every soldier they can get, and better for him to die in battle (where he could at least try to be useful) than simply be executed.

2) There are several districts in Soul Society, many of them quite peaceful, and there seems to be a bureaucracy that tries to send people more or less to where they belong. Most of the people we've seen at the worst districts - that is, the outskirts of Rukongai - were violent people (like Ikkaku and Kenpachi). There are exceptions, of course, like Renji, Rukia and Rukia's sister, but then again, in the real world people are often born in violent regions without having done anything to earn that (unless you believe in karma).

You're right in that Bleach's afterlife isn't Paradise, but it's not supposed to be; the story's undercurrent seems to be that people are the root of all problems, not some sort of nebulous Evil. Consider, for instance, that Hollows are born from ghosts of people who are chained to this life by some sort of regret or unfulfilled ambition (so presumably, people who die good deaths and let go of their earthly attachments either won't become Hollows, or it will take them much longer to do so).

[Friv]

Also. Again. What a terrible afterlife. Seriously, a captain just wanders around murdering lots of people cause she's bored and no one even calls her on it?

They've been pretty clear that the 13 Squads system was designed to limit the amount of damage that the most dangerous people in Soul Society could do, by putting them in a place where most of their murderous intent could be directed towards Hollows.

Yamato's whole backstory was about how his iron control is designed to prevent several captains from backsliding into Murderville, and about how Soul Society has only recently been able to rise out of that past.

And actually, it sort of makes sense. Soul Society isn't Heaven. It's a place where everyone goes, and where having the power to be totally immune to society's laws seems to be in large part based around your killing intent. Of course it was a terrible place to exist!

I mean...characters we can clearly classify as good at this point: Ichigo, Chad, Orihime, Rukia, Renji, and maybe Captains Eyepatch and TB. I'd argue that everyone else is neutral at best, with the majority leaning into evil territory.

I'm going to actually argue for more than that.

Yoruichi seems like a good person, as are Captains Hitsugaya and Werewolf. The Vizard all seemed to be decent people; even after getting Hollows shoved into their souls, they avoided turning into monsters. Many of the lieutenants are also pretty good people - Matsumoto, Glasses, Tattoo and Isane are all pretty clearly good.

[LaZodiac]

Was it really Kenpachi who set up all those bodies? That's...ridiculous and silly.

[Tebryn]

Was it really Kenpachi who set up all those bodies? That's...ridiculous and silly.

You're expecting anything less at this stage?

[LaZodiac]

You're expecting anything less at this stage?

No, but still. Everything points towards it being sensible except for the apparent decision that it just isn't. I'm used to Bleach being silly, and maybe Bleach being arbitrary, but not like this.

[Anteros]

Naw, it was Kenpachi.



Not only did that not happen, but there are a lot of nuances you seem to have missed.

1) The Thirteen Squads, as their name implies, are a military organization, with everything that it implies. Only, unlike real-world militaries, you can't ever retire and you can't ever win the war; there will always be Hollows for the Shinigami to fight, and the only way out for them is to die - in which case they probably won't even reincarnate to a human life, since they'll be eaten.
This probably explains things like the husband of Tousen's friend not being punished for murder: the 13 Squads need every soldier they can get, and better for him to die in battle (where he could at least try to be useful) than simply be executed.

2) There are several districts in Soul Society, many of them quite peaceful, and there seems to be a bureaucracy that tries to send people more or less to where they belong. Most of the people we've seen at the worst districts - that is, the outskirts of Rukongai - were violent people (like Ikkaku and Kenpachi). There are exceptions, of course, like Renji, Rukia and Rukia's sister, but then again, in the real world people are often born in violent regions without having done anything to earn that (unless you believe in karma).

You're right in that Bleach's afterlife isn't Paradise, but it's not supposed to be; the story's undercurrent seems to be that people are the root of all problems, not some sort of nebulous Evil. Consider, for instance, that Hollows are born from ghosts of people who are chained to this life by some sort of regret or unfulfilled ambition (so presumably, people who die good deaths and let go of their earthly attachments either won't become Hollows, or it will take them much longer to do so).

You...didn't address my points at all. You quite literally just went "nuh uh" and then typed a bunch of information completely irrelevant to the point I was making. No one is saying that the afterlife needs to be paradise...just that maybe those in charge could be a tiny bit less evil? Of course that would require them to act in regards to something besides their own self interest...which only a tiny portion so far have shown the capability of doing.


Sure. Maybe "that's just the way it is." But it doesn't make them any less evil for being that way.

They've been pretty clear that the 13 Squads system was designed to limit the amount of damage that the most dangerous people in Soul Society could do, by putting them in a place where most of their murderous intent could be directed towards Hollows.

Yamato's whole backstory was about how his iron control is designed to prevent several captains from backsliding into Murderville, and about how Soul Society has only recently been able to rise out of that past.

And actually, it sort of makes sense. Soul Society isn't Heaven. It's a place where everyone goes, and where having the power to be totally immune to society's laws seems to be in large part based around your killing intent. Of course it was a terrible place to exist!



I'm going to actually argue for more than that.

Yoruichi seems like a good person, as are Captains Hitsugaya and Werewolf. The Vizard all seemed to be decent people; even after getting Hollows shoved into their souls, they avoided turning into monsters. Many of the lieutenants are also pretty good people - Matsumoto, Glasses, Tattoo and Isane are all pretty clearly good.

Yoruichi seems good...but she's in league with Hat+clogs who is morally ambiguous at best. As for the rest...they're neutral at best. Hitsugaya, Matsumoto, Glasses, and the rest are all self interested more than anything. Out of every single person we've seen in soul society, the only ones who we've seen actually willing to put their own ass on the line for what they thought was right have been Captain Eyepatch and Captain TB.

Likable or charismatic does not equal good.

[Tebryn]

You...didn't address my points at all. You quite literally just went "nuh uh" and then typed a bunch of information completely irrelevant to the point I was making. No one is saying that the afterlife needs to be paradise...just that maybe those in charge could be a tiny bit less evil? Of course that would require them to act in regards to something besides their own self interest...which only a tiny portion so far have shown the capability of doing.

Selfish=/=Evil. Of the Captains you could probably make a convincing argument that one of them is evil and that's Mayuri. The Commander Captain may not have been a nice fellow but without Aizen's troll magic going on he generally acts in the best interest of his people and even Ichigo. Not having the same desires as the main character also doesn't make you evil. He was correct in saying not to go after Orohime after all, it was one big trap. Some of the other Captains are a little cold but when you're a trained killer it does happen. You kinda need to be.

[Turalisj]

Likable or charismatic does not equal good.

Different cultural does not equal evil. By your standards, most shonen characters would be neutral or evil, because they do not adhere to the same cultural perceptions as we might.

Morality is such a subjective topic that discussing it is pointless, you are always going to disagree with the other person on at least one thing.

So let's move on, shall we?

I think Ichigo being part Quincy might have been hinted at during the Hueco Mundo/Battle for Fake Karakura Town arcs, with how his clothing got further damaged the more his power diminished.

[HandofShadows]

Was it really Kenpachi who set up all those bodies? That's...ridiculous and silly.

Why? Kenpach at the time was 10 times more insane than he is now. Unohana cleary asked how long the bodied had been there meaning SHE had not created them.

[Hadrian_Emrys]

I'm glad to see that the focus of the thread has returned to the Soul Society.

"It looks like we're..."

"-getting back into the spirit of things."

YEAHHHHHHHHHHH!

[Morph Bark]

Do keep in mind that this happened a very long time ago, likely during the age when the Gotei 13 was full of people like the Kenpachis in personality (Unohana was one of the first captains, after all). The law and order bits of the Gotei 13 came later.

Some people do remember their lives back in the living world. Apparently, if you have enough spiritual power while living, you keep your memories.

Really? In which chapter was that stated?