Bleach VI: We Want Our Baby Bach Ribs (Aizen pull)

[Friv]

As for the rest...they're neutral at best. Hitsugaya, Matsumoto, Glasses, and the rest are all self interested more than anything. Out of every single person we've seen in soul society, the only ones who we've seen actually willing to put their own ass on the line for what they thought was right have been Captain Eyepatch and Captain TB.

Likable or charismatic does not equal good.

Hitsugaya and Matsumoto put their asses on the line repeatedly during the invasion arc, trying to figure out what was actually going on rather than just accepting that the invaders were the bad guys. Their investigation helped to stop everyone beating on each other when they discovered what Aizen was up to, and almost got them both killed. Glasses has never done anything selfish or evil onscreen, beyond occasionally smacking her boss for being a bit of a lech, and has repeatedly put herself in danger to support her captain, up to following him in rebellion against an unjust authority. Isane has only ever been seen trying to care for wounded people or fighting against Hollows, and has never committed so much as an unkind word that I can recall.

[Socratov]

Well, the manga is stalling for now IMO. not much happening that we couldn't predict 3 chapters ahead...

Anyway, since we are on page 49 I'd like to suggest a titel for the new thread:
Bleach VII: Kenpachi is dead, Long live the new Kenpachi!

On the chapters, I think the special snowflake role of Ichigo is turned up to 9000 since he's the only shinigami who is:

• human and living
• a quincy
• fullbringer
• hollow tainted
• not using a sword proxy but producing a sword on his own
• always on shikai

it's becoming more then ridicilous...

[Anteros]

Hitsugaya and Matsumoto put their asses on the line repeatedly during the invasion arc, trying to figure out what was actually going on rather than just accepting that the invaders were the bad guys. Their investigation helped to stop everyone beating on each other when they discovered what Aizen was up to, and almost got them both killed. Glasses has never done anything selfish or evil onscreen, beyond occasionally smacking her boss for being a bit of a lech, and has repeatedly put herself in danger to support her captain, up to following him in rebellion against an unjust authority. Isane has only ever been seen trying to care for wounded people or fighting against Hollows, and has never committed so much as an unkind word that I can recall.

They...walked leisurely up to a building. They didn't actually DO anything until they were attacked. At which point they acted in self defense. I'm not saying that they're evil, but it's hardly heroic.

I don't mind putting glasses or Isane in the good category. They're so shallow though that I don't really consider them actual characters worth discussing.

Different cultural does not equal evil. By your standards, most shonen characters would be neutral or evil, because they do not adhere to the same cultural perceptions as we might.

Morality is such a subjective topic that discussing it is pointless, you are always going to disagree with the other person on at least one thing.

So let's move on, shall we?

I think Ichigo being part Quincy might have been hinted at during the Hueco Mundo/Battle for Fake Karakura Town arcs, with how his clothing got further damaged the more his power diminished.

I don't think you can just make a blanket statement like that and then cite "cultural differences". Just because someone is part of a different culture does not mean you can't make moral judgments about their actions. I mean...to take a historical example, was it ok for the Vikings to rape and pillage? It was their culture to do so right? It's a silly argument.

Besides, you're not even making any type of argument to support these supposed cultural differences. The last time I checked, being part of an elite military group that actively oppresses people and keeps them living in squalor is not a cultural thing.

Selfish=/=Evil. Of the Captains you could probably make a convincing argument that one of them is evil and that's Mayuri. The Commander Captain may not have been a nice fellow but without Aizen's troll magic going on he generally acts in the best interest of his people and even Ichigo. Not having the same desires as the main character also doesn't make you evil. He was correct in saying not to go after Orohime after all, it was one big trap. Some of the other Captains are a little cold but when you're a trained killer it does happen. You kinda need to be.

Mayuri, and Kenpachi are unarguably evil. Soi Fong is pretty evil. Given recent chapters I'd throw Captain Mom in there as well. Shunsui, and Ukitake are good. Hitsugaya is arguably good. The rest are probably neutral at best, with very lawful leanings. The problem is...being a lawful neutral authority figure in an absolutely terrible society does not exactly reflect well on you as a person.

Obviously Gin, Aizen, and Tousen were all evil as well...but It's probably not fair to really count them.

[Friv]

They...walked leisurely up to a building. They didn't actually DO anything until they were attacked. At which point they acted in self defense. I'm not saying that they're evil, but it's hardly heroic.

...?

They spent the entire invasion trying to figure out what was really going on, rather than assuming that everything was on the up-and-up, in order to discover why Rukia was being sentenced to death and find out who killed Aizen (ironically). It was a pretty big subplot.

As for not counting minor characters - if you're going to be arguing the alignment of a society, I feel that we should include all members of that society, not just the ones that got the most screen time.

Mayuri, and Kenpachi are unarguably evil. Soi Fong is pretty evil. Given recent chapters I'd throw Captain Mom in there as well. Shunsui, and Ukitake are good. Hitsugaya is arguably good. The rest are probably neutral at best, with very lawful leanings. The problem is...being a lawful neutral authority figure in an absolutely terrible society does not exactly reflect well on you as a person.

I stand by my claim that Captain Werewolf is a good guy; his backstory flashes and his relationships with others have demonstrated him as a guy who believes in justice and tries to do the right thing.

I would also argue that Unohana is a neutral captain, who used to be an evil captain. It's been a long time since she was evil and she seems to spend a lot of time helping out these days.

Also, special mention needs to be given to poor old Byakuya. I could make a strong case for him being a good guy, if edging towards neutrality. His whole character reveal was that he was, in fact, torn up inside about what was happening, but refused to behave in a corrupt manner by giving his sister special treatment.

The thing is - Rukia did, in fact, knowingly break the laws of Soul Society, and then she covered up her crime in the hopes that it would resolve itself without being discovered. If Ichigo hadn't been such a great guy, that could have been pretty disastrous. When she got arrested, her sentence was way harsher than it should have been, but as far as most of Soul Society knew, it was a legitimate sentence from a legitimate government. Byakuya was following the rule of law, and being a good policeman. Traditionally, we frown on people declaring that there should be one law for the people that they like and another law for everyone else.

The only captains I would consider unreservedly evil are Aizen and Mayuri. Kenpachi has never been shown to fight people who weren't willing to fight back, Soi Fon is kind of a jerk but not actually generally a monster, and both Ichimaru and Tousen had pretty good reasons for joining Aizen; the former was wobbly-evil because he was letting others get hurt on his quest for revenge, and the latter had become a Knight Templar.

[HandofShadows]

I would argue that Kenpachi is more neutral at the current time. He just likes to fight. But if you notice he does not kill people he defeated (unless its in combat).

Ichimaru is a odd case. While he was after revenge, he also did it to stop Azien. After he was beaten by Azien and saw that Ichigo would be able to stop him, he was pleased and relaxed. If you think about about he really didn't have much of choice to take the path he did to stop Aizen.

[Friv]

Going to swap sides for a moment, because why not.

I would argue that Kenpachi is more neutral at the current time. He just likes to fight. But if you notice he does not kill people he defeated (unless its in combat).

Kenpachi is an odd duck. On the one hand, he has a lot of laudable traits:
* He doesn't go after non-combatants, which definitionally means that he's not going to kill innocents
* He enjoys fighting, not winning, and has no particular liking for causing suffering; the fact that suffering might be caused is incidental to his goals, so he's not a bully or sadist
* He inspires astounding loyalty in his men, several of whom were willing to go up against all of Soul Society just because their boss decided to
* He adopted a baby. Dude decided that the middle of a horrifying world of kill or be killed was a place where he could take time out of his busy schedule to take care of a baby girl, and he not only kept her alive in a region where we have it on good authority that child mortality is through the roof, he kept her happy and fit. Yachiru is more than a little crazy, mind you, and with Kenpachi for a dad that isn't a surprise, but he took the time to care for and teach her.

On the other hand, if he thinks that you will make a good fight, you are going to get fought to the death. Kenpachi was willing to declare war on all of his allies just because he had a good fight with one of their enemies. One shudders to think of what would have happened if Aizen had taken ten seconds to convince him that Arrancar creation could give him lots of good fights.

I'm not sure I can reasonably say that he's just neutral. He's kind of a terrible person in a lot of ways.

Ichimaru is a odd case. While he was after revenge, he also did it to stop Azien. After he was beaten by Azien and saw that Ichigo would be able to stop him, he was pleased and relaxed. If you think about about he really didn't have much of choice to take the path he did to stop Aizen.

He sure as heck did have a choice. He could have quietly gone to Yama with everything fifty years earlier, and then they could have seen how Aizen's powers worked when the Captain-Commander appeared behind him and burned him to ash before he knew he was in a fight.

Ichimaru wanted to be the one to get revenge on Aizen, and he let a lot of people suffer for a long time to do it. He did nothing to mitigate the damage he was doing.

[VanBuren]

I nominate "Bleach V: Spoiler - Nothing happens".

[DiscipleofBob]

I nominate "Bleach V: Spoiler - Nothing happens".

We're nearing that point already?

EDIT: NVM. I can't do basic math apparently.

[LaZodiac]

Why? Kenpach at the time was 10 times more insane than he is now. Unohana cleary asked how long the bodied had been there meaning SHE had not created them.

Yes, but it also happens in a lot of series where, a character who's characterized as someone who's bored of fighting due to how simple it is, they don't even notice the piles of bodies they create. I felt it was good defining moment of Unohana.

Also, I'd just like to point two things out. One, we've spent probably double the time Kubo has on working out how Soul Society works.

Two, Kenpachi is probably the most well rounded, sensible, nuanced, and developed character in the series. He has an actuall character arch, and it's actually a rather sad one. I vote Kenpachi for true protagonist.

[HandofShadows]

He sure as heck did have a choice. He could have quietly gone to Yama with everything fifty years earlier, and then they could have seen how Aizen's powers worked when the Captain-Commander appeared behind him and burned him to ash before he knew he was in a fight.

Ichimaru wanted to be the one to get revenge on Aizen, and he let a lot of people suffer for a long time to do it. He did nothing to mitigate the damage he was doing.

Would old man Yama belived him? Would Yama have been able to hear what he said? Heck, how would he know he was actually talking to the Old Man and not Aizen himself? Think about it.

[darksolitaire]

He sure as heck did have a choice. He could have quietly gone to Yama with everything fifty years earlier, and then they could have seen how Aizen's powers worked when the Captain-Commander appeared behind him and burned him to ash before he knew he was in a fight.

I'm not sure it works like that. Just remember how OP Aizen was. You'll need to grab his sword to have a chance at killing him, and he was basically always crazy prepared.

Edit; suggesting Bleach VII: "You're a Quincy, Ichigo" "I'm a what?"

[VanBuren]

Would old man Yama belived him? Would Yama have been able to hear what he said? Heck, how would he know he was actually talking to the Old Man and not Aizen himself? Think about it.

That last one wouldn't have been a concern. One of the reasons he believed it was up to him was because he knew he wasn't under Aizen's spell. Though I wonder why he didn't try and reach out to Ichigo.

Well, I guess he sorta did in their fight.

[Axinian]

• human and living
• a quincy
• fullbringer
• hollow tainted
• not using a sword proxy but producing a sword on his own
• always on shikai

it's becoming more then ridicilous...

Don't forget having so much spirit energy it practically spews out of him "like an open faucet," and the fastest anyone has ever achieved bankai.

[thethird]

Kenpachi is an odd duck. On the one hand, he has a lot of laudable traits:
* He doesn't go after non-combatants, which definitionally means that he's not going to kill innocents
* He enjoys fighting, not winning, and has no particular liking for causing suffering; the fact that suffering might be caused is incidental to his goals, so he's not a bully or sadist
* He inspires astounding loyalty in his men, several of whom were willing to go up against all of Soul Society just because their boss decided to
* He adopted a baby. Dude decided that the middle of a horrifying world of kill or be killed was a place where he could take time out of his busy schedule to take care of a baby girl, and he not only kept her alive in a region where we have it on good authority that child mortality is through the roof, he kept her happy and fit. Yachiru is more than a little crazy, mind you, and with Kenpachi for a dad that isn't a surprise, but he took the time to care for and teach her.

On the other hand, if he thinks that you will make a good fight, you are going to get fought to the death. Kenpachi was willing to declare war on all of his allies just because he had a good fight with one of their enemies. One shudders to think of what would have happened if Aizen had taken ten seconds to convince him that Arrancar creation could give him lots of good fights.

I'm not sure I can reasonably say that he's just neutral. He's kind of a terrible person in a lot of ways.

I would say that he is Chaotic Neutral.

suggesting Bleach VII: "You're a Quincy, Ichigo" "I'm a what?"

I would rather not have a spoiler in the tittle.

[Turalisj]

Bleach VII: Now a Classic

[HandofShadows]

Don't forget having so much spirit energy it practically spews out of him "like an open faucet," and the fastest anyone has ever achieved bankai.

Nope. Hat & Clogs did it faster. And the method Ichigo used was invented by him.

[Morph Bark]

Allow me to make a list:

Bleach VII: Rise of the Quinbringizard
Bleach VII: Spoiler Alert! Nothing Happens
Bleach VII: "Ichigo, you're a [scrubbed]."
Bleach VII: Ichigo Takes Monk Levels


The last one in reference to his losing his only weapon, plus if he gets a bow he obviously is taking Zen Archery.

[Anteros]

Kenpachi literally chases down and tries to kill people who don't want to fight him. I mean...if you want to consider him not-evil that's fine. It's a fictional character and you're welcome to your interpretation. Personally, I think he's evil though.

I also think people are overstating Ichigo's super-special-snowflake-ness. We have lots of special snowflakes in Bleach. Kenpachi, Yama, Aizen, Orihime, Hat+clogs. It's just much more prominent with Ichigo because he's the main character.

...?

They spent the entire invasion trying to figure out what was really going on, rather than assuming that everything was on the up-and-up, in order to discover why Rukia was being sentenced to death and find out who killed Aizen (ironically). It was a pretty big subplot.

I'm not saying that they're evil, or that they served no purpose in that arc. But they certainly weren't knowingly putting themselves on the line to help someone else. It's laudable that they actually tried to figure out what was going on instead of blindly following orders...I'm just disputing your statement that they were putting their own butts on the line to do so. They never expected to be attacked.

As for not counting minor characters - if you're going to be arguing the alignment of a society, I feel that we should include all members of that society, not just the ones that got the most screen time.

It's a fair argument, and I agree with you. It's just that I don't really feel like we have enough information about these characters to classify them one way or another.

I stand by my claim that Captain Werewolf is a good guy; his backstory flashes and his relationships with others have demonstrated him as a guy who believes in justice and tries to do the right thing.

I would also argue that Unohana is a neutral captain, who used to be an evil captain. It's been a long time since she was evil and she seems to spend a lot of time helping out these days.

I guess that depends on personal interpretation. We don't really have enough information to know if she actually sought redemption, or she's just stopped murdering for the moment.

Werewolf seems good...but again he's a character we haven't fully explored. I'm loathe to give characters the benefit of the doubt in Bleach.

Also, special mention needs to be given to poor old Byakuya. I could make a strong case for him being a good guy, if edging towards neutrality. His whole character reveal was that he was, in fact, torn up inside about what was happening, but refused to behave in a corrupt manner by giving his sister special treatment.

The thing is - Rukia did, in fact, knowingly break the laws of Soul Society, and then she covered up her crime in the hopes that it would resolve itself without being discovered. If Ichigo hadn't been such a great guy, that could have been pretty disastrous. When she got arrested, her sentence was way harsher than it should have been, but as far as most of Soul Society knew, it was a legitimate sentence from a legitimate government. Byakuya was following the rule of law, and being a good policeman. Traditionally, we frown on people declaring that there should be one law for the people that they like and another law for everyone else.

I think he's very, very lawful...which is not the same as being a good person. I'd plant him firmly in the neutral territory.

The only captains I would consider unreservedly evil are Aizen and Mayuri. Kenpachi has never been shown to fight people who weren't willing to fight back, Soi Fon is kind of a jerk but not actually generally a monster, and both Ichimaru and Tousen had pretty good reasons for joining Aizen; the former was wobbly-evil because he was letting others get hurt on his quest for revenge, and the latter had become a Knight Templar.

Kenpachi most certainly does hurt people who don't want to fight back. There was an entire bit about him chasing Ichigo around SS attacking him with Ichigo running away. This was after Ichigo and SS made peace. He also killed his previous captain, and apparently made a giant mountain of bodies at one point.

Soi Fon is "just following orders" but she seems to enjoy when those orders put her over others or let her hurt them.

As far as Gin and Tousen...sure they had their motivations. I actually like Gin. I think he's one of the more sympathetic characters in Bleach. Still evil though.

[VanBuren]

Kenpachi literally chases down and tries to kill people who don't want to fight him. I mean...if you want to consider him not-evil that's fine. It's a fictional character and you're welcome to your interpretation. Personally, I think he's evil though.

I also think people are overstating Ichigo's super-special-snowflake-ness. We have lots of special snowflakes in Bleach. Kenpachi, Yama, Aizen, Orihime, Hat+clogs. It's just much more prominent with Ichigo because he's the main character.

Ichigo is the only one with levels in every class. Hell, his new design incorporates his Fullbring leftovers to an extent according to Kubo, so it's not like those powers are totally gone either.

[Anteros]

Ichigo is the only one with levels in every class. Hell, his new design incorporates his Fullbring leftovers to an extent according to Kubo, so it's not like those powers are totally gone either.

Maybe. It's not like they're actually doing anything though. Honestly, it's like Kubo mainly uses things like that as an excuse to give Ichigo an art upgrade.

[Morph Bark]

Those are all special snowflakes, indeed. Thing is, their special snowflake-ness is because of one specific thing (Yama being incredibly powerful with his super-hot bankai and therefore having ended up as the Captain-Commander, for instance), whereas Ichigo has several of those things going on.

Kenpachi, when let loose, is pretty clearly Evil. When operating within bounds and orders, or when not fighting, that's when he showcases plenty of admirable qualities.

When it comes to morality, Bleach is surprisingly less black-and-white than might be expected of it, really. Though of a lot of characters we simply don't have enough data samples to make a good judgment call.

[Anteros]

Those are all special snowflakes, indeed. Thing is, their special snowflake-ness is because of one specific thing (Yama being incredibly powerful with his super-hot bankai and therefore having ended up as the Captain-Commander, for instance), whereas Ichigo has several of those things going on.

Kenpachi, when let loose, is pretty clearly Evil. When operating within bounds and orders, or when not fighting, that's when he showcases plenty of admirable qualities.

When it comes to morality, Bleach is surprisingly less black-and-white than might be expected of it, really. Though of a lot of characters we simply don't have enough data samples to make a good judgment call.

That's true. I'm more arguing for fun than anything.

[Frozen_Feet]

Kenpachi is Chaotic Evil. He is the posterboy for Chaotic Evil. He is, however, strangely affable. He has a personal sense of chivalry of sorts, and a lot of humanizing traits that serve to make him more than just a cartoon cut-out. He is my favorite evil character after Xykon and Heath Ledger's Joker, and one of my favorite anti-heroes.

Claiming he's neutral pretty much requires ignoring all the bloodshed this single person causes. Chaotic, I don't think anyone can seriously contest. But it just goes to show you can have evil characters who are still sympathetic, affable and inspiring.

[Turalisj]

Allow me to make a list:

Bleach VII: Rise of the Quinbringizard
Bleach VII: Spoiler Alert! Nothing Happens
Bleach VII: "Ichigo, you're a [scrubbed]."
Bleach VII: Ichigo Takes Monk Levels


The last one in reference to his losing his only weapon, plus if he gets a bow he obviously is taking Zen Archery.

Bleach VII: Multiclass Mayhem

[VanBuren]

Maybe. It's not like they're actually doing anything though. Honestly, it's like Kubo mainly uses things like that as an excuse to give Ichigo an art upgrade.

That's probably the most likely explanation. That's probably Kubo's favorite thing about this manga.

[Morph Bark]

I wonder when the backgrounds will get Quincy blood.

[The Troubadour]

Allow me to make a list:

Bleach VII: Rise of the Quinbringizard
Bleach VII: Spoiler Alert! Nothing Happens
Bleach VII: "Ichigo, you're a [scrubbed]."
Bleach VII: Ichigo Takes Monk Levels

Bleach VII: The New (Quincy) Blood
Bleach VII: The Stern Ritter Take Manhattan

[LaZodiac]

Bleach VI: Everything But The Plot, part 2

[Turalisj]

Bleach VII: What is this I don't even

[Yanagi]

Bleach VII: Ichigo secretly has all the powers of a moderator.