Not-TMNT now back to being TMNT?

[Mordar]

Hi all -

I read today that Michael Bay received a visit from a certain rodent sensei and shortly thereafter scrapped his brilliant plan to make a Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles movie featuring non-teenage, non-mutant, non-ninja, non-turtle space aliens.

While I suspect the doofus is still going to make a host of mistakes (Megan Fox as anything other than a bystander screaming for help, for instance), at least someone convinced him that his idea was horrible and got it torpedoed.

- M

[Remmirath]

Well, that's certainly a large step in the right direction. I'm not familiar with who the actress you're speaking of is, so I can't comment on that, but anything has to be better than that alien origin story.

It probably can't be worse than the second of the original three movies at this point, but I don't see it being near as good as the first one. I'm going to guess it'll end up more in the same realm as the third one -- watchable but with some serious issues. Likely entirely different serious issues, but still.

[Metahuman1]

Well, that's certainly a large step in the right direction. I'm not familiar with who the actress you're speaking of is, so I can't comment on that, but anything has to be better than that alien origin story.

It probably can't be worse than the second of the original three movies at this point, but I don't see it being near as good as the first one. I'm going to guess it'll end up more in the same realm as the third one -- watchable but with some serious issues. Likely entirely different serious issues, but still.

Dark haired chick form Transformers 1-2, Jennifer's Body and Johna Hex.

[Kitten Champion]

While I cringe at the sound of Micheal Bay's name as he's my personal anti-life, I will admit he can occasionally do good action sequences when he isn't bombarding you with ADHD visuals, over-saturated colours, helicopters, and explosions.

The problem is that TMNT had effective action scenes and some of the best practical effects in movie history. They brought the Turtles to life, without making them terrifying or laughable. The fighting scenes were excellent as far as martial arts movies of the time go and still hold up.

Its biggest strength was the characters and the actors were surprisingly moving considering the limitations of the costumes and the silliness of the concept. That's why the first movie has aged so well.

The biggest problems were in the script hiccups and its anticlimactic ending. Well, that and the diminishing quality of the sequels. That the same writers are attached to this project is an iffy portent.

Bay's not directing this I realize, but the guy who did Wrath of the Titans and Battle Los Angeles is even less accomplished in characterization and interesting visual effects. Expensive effects, certainly, but not interesting. Particularly when these effects happen to, in, and around characters you don't get a damn about.

If they had to do this remake, they could have at least gotten someone like Bryan Singer or Guillermo del Toro. Who are both accomplished in creating action movies with similar constraints and concepts of the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles.

[MLai]

I have a question:

Which makes for an even more humorous sight than any Ninja Turtle costumes could provide. The four actors -- Alan Ritchson (Raphael), Noel Fisher (Michelangelo), Jeremy Howard (Donatello) and Pete Ploszek (Leonardo) -- are dressed in grey and black motion capture suits

Who are these guys? I see a bunch of skinny white guys. Do they know how to kung fu? Why aren't Asian martial arts movie stuntmen hired to do the mo-cap? Borrow some from Jackie Chan's troupe, like in the first film; it's not like Mr. Chan's making big action movies every year anymore.

Unless these white guys are exceptions like the excellent Ray Park (in fact why isn't he mo-capping?), then I'm imagining stupid CGI-aided wire fu like what you see in Charlie's Angels and SW prequels. White man kung fu is really painful to watch.

[LaZodiac]

Bay's not directing this I realize, but the guy who did Wrath of the Titans and Battle Los Angeles is even less accomplished in characterization and interesting visual effects. Expensive effects, certainly, but not interesting. Particularly when these effects happen to, in, and around characters you don't get a damn about.

If they had to do this remake, they could have at least gotten someone like Bryan Singer or Guillermo del Toro. Who are both accomplished in creating action movies with similar constraints and concepts of the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles.

A little off topic, but I need to extend some defense to the Battle Los Angeles guy. What he lacked in characterization, he made up for in clearly showing through action that the aliens where just like us. They used logical, human squad tactics, went out to save their men, dragging back wounded behind cover, and so on.

So if anything the fight scenes will be well choreographed. This movie will still be terrible since it's associated with Michael Bay, however.

[Kitten Champion]

A little off topic, but I need to extend some defense to the Battle Los Angeles guy. What he lacked in characterization, he made up for in clearly showing through action that the aliens where just like us. They used logical, human squad tactics, went out to save their men, dragging back wounded behind cover, and so on.

So if anything the fight scenes will be well choreographed. This movie will still be terrible since it's associated with Michael Bay, however.

I'd believe they were logical, that doesn't make them interesting to watch.

The amount of ambivalence I felt can not be conveyed in words watching a 90 minute action sequence with cardboard cut-outs of human beings fighting CGI aliens in what can only be compared to watching someone play a FPS. More importantly, this is a martial arts movie, which calls for someone who does that style of film well.

Besides, the original movie already had well-choreographed and original action sequences, but also had at its heart great characters which I sympathized with. If Battle Los Angeles/Wrath of the Titans guy created one character who wasn't boring, 2-dimensional, or stereotypical I'd at least consider the possibility that my predictions about this movie were glib.

[Remmirath]

Dark haired chick form Transformers 1-2, Jennifer's Body and Johna Hex.

Ah. I've never seen any of those movies, so that would explain why I don't know who she is.

The problem is that TMNT had effective action scenes and some of the best practical effects in movie history. They brought the Turtles to life, without making them terrifying or laughable. The fighting scenes were excellent as far as martial arts movies of the time go and still hold up.

Its biggest strength was the characters and the actors were surprisingly moving considering the limitations of the costumes and the silliness of the concept. That's why the first movie has aged so well.

The biggest problems were in the script hiccups and its anticlimactic ending. Well, that and the diminishing quality of the sequels. That the same writers are attached to this project is an iffy portent.

Yeah, I agree with all of this, especially that the portrayal of the characters was and is very important. And, honestly, I tend to prefer the way well-done practical special effects come off to how CGI comes off.

Personally I wouldn't say the quality of the sequels was exactly diminishing, because I felt that the second was the worst of the three (perhaps because it fell so far from its vague inspiration in one of my favourite of the original comics, perhaps because of the incredibly forced attempts at humour), but they were both far diminished from the first.

Honestly, I don't think a remake is really the way to go with it, not of the first movie. There are many other stories they could go with, but hey, if it actually somehow turns out to be good then they could move on to other stories. I'm still rather leery of the part about it actually turning out to be good, though.

I have a question:

Who are these guys? I see a bunch of skinny white guys. Do they know how to kung fu? Why aren't Asian martial arts movie stuntmen hired to do the mo-cap? Borrow some from Jackie Chan's troupe, like in the first film; it's not like Mr. Chan's making big action movies every year anymore.

Unless these white guys are exceptions like the excellent Ray Park (in fact why isn't he mo-capping?), then I'm imagining stupid CGI-aided wire fu like what you see in Charlie's Angels and SW prequels. White man kung fu is really painful to watch.

Who the actors doing it are doesn't matter that much to me so long as they can act, of course, and are trainable to fight convincingly if they don't have stunt doubles for that. It would also be pretty easy to have a whole different set of people for the combat with the CGI. No, I want to know who's choreographing the fights. That matters a lot more than the actors for the quality of the fights.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Ah. I've never seen any of those movies, so that would explain why I don't know who she is.

You are fortunate.

[MLai]

Who the actors doing it are doesn't matter that much to me so long as they can act, of course, and are trainable to fight convincingly if they don't have stunt doubles for that. It would also be pretty easy to have a whole different set of people for the combat with the CGI. No, I want to know who's choreographing the fights. That matters a lot more than the actors for the quality of the fights.

If the dramatic actors and the kung fu actors are 2 different sets of people, then ok I agree with you there.

But unless it can't be helped (for example the cast of Matrix), it's best not to have the dramatic actors do the kung fu. Since the turtles are all mo-cap, it should be required that actual kung fu stuntmen do the action scenes. A good choreographer alone cannot make kung fu look convincing when performed by amateurs. It also saves a lot of hassle and costs when a good choreographer teams up with a good stuntmen troupe (like the guys from Golden Harvest who did all the action in the first film) and they're all familiar with working with each other.

TMNT characters actually gel exceptionally well with HK MA stuntmen, because HK MA movie stunts are all about selling the kung fu. When a "master" character hits a "mook" character, that mook flies back 10 feet, bounces off a wall, and writhes on the ground in pain. That's all stunt and sell, no CGI. Obviously with non-human mo-capped CGI characters like the turtles, this exaggerated physical expression is important. It's often not seen in Western stunt action, which emphasizes economy and realism of motion and reaction.

Basically think of the exaggerated action in Power Rangers, except with 50x better kung fu.

[Brother Oni]

White man kung fu is really painful to watch.

I'd say most white man kung fu is painful to watch, rather than all. The second Matrix film wasn't that bad and there are some very good western martial artists on film (eg. Gary Daniels).

I would say most of the differences are due to choreography and different safety restrictions - here's a fun little video that takes the mick out of western fight scene filming practices and compares it to HK movies: link.
That said, fights can be done well in a western style - the Jason Bourne films for example. Very different in style, but no less technically demanding or impressive to watch.

Who the actors doing it are doesn't matter that much to me so long as they can act, of course, and are trainable to fight convincingly if they don't have stunt doubles for that.

Well Sylvester Stallone believes it's easier to teach a fighter to act than an actor to fight convincingly (and thus casted accordingly in his Rocky films) and I tend to agree with MLai that if the actor can't fight then they shouldn't do it as it tends to break verisimilitude (or results in nausea inducing shakey cam and sharp edits to hide that fact).

TMNT characters actually gel exceptionally well with HK MA stuntmen, because HK MA movie stunts are all about selling the kung fu.

It also helps that the turtles are small, so they won't have to waste time scaling the characters to match the stuntmen.

[VeisuItaTyhjyys]

Honestly, I think the wasted motion of sub-par HK choreography is worse. Silly jump cuts are at least better than the idea that evil kung fu foes never learn counters for all your dumb inefficient moves. I mean, if we're going to mature the franchise to the point that we're doing a character drama where Steve Buscemi plays a debilitated, ineffectual alcoholic version of The Shredder, I'm down.

[Brother Oni]

Honestly, I think the wasted motion of sub-par HK choreography is worse. Silly jump cuts are at least better than the idea that evil kung fu foes never learn counters for all your dumb inefficient moves. I mean, if we're going to mature the franchise to the point that we're doing a character drama where Steve Buscemi plays a debilitated, ineffectual alcoholic version of The Shredder, I'm down.

I think it just depends on the style of film. A martial arts film should have spectacular or at least interesting fight choreography as that's what that genre is about.
However flashy inefficient moves would look very out of place in a more serious film franchise like Jason Bourne.

As for maturing the franchise, the original incarnation of it by Eastman and Laird was perfectly mature (it was intended to be a satire of the current comic book culture of the time), unfortunately it got picked up by Viacom who missed the point and turned the Turtles into exactly what they were parodying in the first place.

[VeisuItaTyhjyys]

I just meant that if we're going to sacrifice verisimilitude because doing spin kicks is "arsty," let's just have Jim Jarmusch make a movie where Raphael and Shredder drink at a bar trying to figure who fathered Karai's kid.

[MLai]

What the heck are you going on about? You do realize that this is a franchise with ninjas, katanas, bos, nunchuks, and sais? Flashy kung fu is "wrong" for this franchise?

[SiuiS]

I have a question:

Who are these guys? I see a bunch of skinny white guys. Do they know how to kung fu? Why aren't Asian martial arts movie stuntmen hired to do the mo-cap? Borrow some from Jackie Chan's troupe, like in the first film; it's not like Mr. Chan's making big action movies every year anymore.

Unless these white guys are exceptions like the excellent Ray Park (in fact why isn't he mo-capping?), then I'm imagining stupid CGI-aided wire fu like what you see in Charlie's Angels and SW prequels. White man kung fu is really painful to watch.

For real.

I'd believe they were logical, that doesn't make them interesting to watch.

The amount of ambivalence I felt can not be conveyed in words watching a 90 minute action sequence with cardboard cut-outs of human beings fighting CGI aliens in what can only be compared to watching someone play a FPS. More importantly, this is a martial arts movie, which calls for someone who does that style of film well.

Besides, the original movie already had well-choreographed and original action sequences, but also had at the the heart of it great characters which I sympathized with. If Battle Los Angeles/Wrath of the Titans guy.

Wait, what? Wrath of the Titans?
The movie with the female lead who is introduced, smiles a lot, gets stuck and needs help, messes up a fight and needs help, gets saved and swoon-snogs the male lead?

I'm done. No turtles for me.

[Janus]

Wait, what? Wrath of the Titans?
The movie with the female lead who is introduced, smiles a lot, gets stuck and needs help, messes up a fight and needs help, gets saved and swoon-snogs the male lead?

I had a bigger problem with the movie not following its own rules very well.

Spoiler

Show

Zeus is dying? You've already established the gods get their powers from prayer, so START PRAYING FOR THE DUDE IF YOU WANT HIM TO HELP.

Ares is trying to kill you all, but you're desperate for some divine aid in your fight?
CALL UP ATHENA, DANG IT.

[An Enemy Spy]

Don't Megan Fox and Michael Bay hate each other? Why would she be in another one of his movies?

[Mordar]

Don't Megan Fox and Michael Bay hate each other? Why would she be in another one of his movies?

It's all about the money...remember all those big movies she's been in the last couple of years? No? Me neither.

Oh, here's a bit showing her on set...

[Kitten Champion]

Will Arnett, why do you want to do yet another movie with Megan Fox? Remember Jonah Hex? You did not come off well. You're going to be another damned Bay-styled comic relief character here aren't you? I guess bigger names than you have degraded themselves further for money. This is going to be painful, I just know it. He's going to be all skeevy with Fox, complain in exaggerated fashion so the audience has to hate him, and be the butt of slapstick and homophobic humour -- I can see it already.

At least John Carter wasn't glaringly bad despite the bombing, and you were good in it too.

[VeisuItaTyhjyys]

I just meant that if we're going to sacrifice verisimilitude because doing spin kicks is "arsty," let's just have Jim Jarmusch make a movie where Raphael and Shredder drink at a bar trying to figure who fathered Karai's kid.

I have no idea what this post was trying to say, but I would totally watch that movie.

[Remmirath]

If the dramatic actors and the kung fu actors are 2 different sets of people, then ok I agree with you there.

In this instance, I do think that is how it would make the most sense to do it. If everything is motion captured anyhow, there's no real reason not to have two different people doing the acting in the rest of the movie and the fighting.

But unless it can't be helped (for example the cast of Matrix), it's best not to have the dramatic actors do the kung fu. Since the turtles are all mo-cap, it should be required that actual kung fu stuntmen do the action scenes. A good choreographer alone cannot make kung fu look convincing when performed by amateurs. It also saves a lot of hassle and costs when a good choreographer teams up with a good stuntmen troupe (like the guys from Golden Harvest who did all the action in the first film) and they're all familiar with working with each other.

True. It's much easier and one generally gets better results when you already have trained stuntmen (or actors who happen to also be trained that way). Depending on how much time and effort they're willing to put into it, they could train up the actors to be convincing, but especially in this case it's much easier to just have stunt doubles.

TMNT characters actually gel exceptionally well with HK MA stuntmen, because HK MA movie stunts are all about selling the kung fu. When a "master" character hits a "mook" character, that mook flies back 10 feet, bounces off a wall, and writhes on the ground in pain. That's all stunt and sell, no CGI. Obviously with non-human mo-capped CGI characters like the turtles, this exaggerated physical expression is important. It's often not seen in Western stunt action, which emphasizes economy and realism of motion and reaction.

I suppose this is the source of our disagreement here: I prefer realistic stunts, including realistic martial arts. I find they're impressive enough when done realistically. I'll admit some exaggeration is appropriate for the subject matter, though, and also will point out that good western fight choreography does sell what's happening, just in a different way.

I would say most of the differences are due to choreography and different safety restrictions - here's a fun little video that takes the mick out of western fight scene filming practices and compares it to HK movies: link.
That said, fights can be done well in a western style - the Jason Bourne films for example. Very different in style, but no less technically demanding or impressive to watch.

That video... yeah. That's clearly very biased. The US version of the fight is pretty bad -- I can see a lot of those misses just looking through it once, they really need to pick up the pace, and I have no idea what they were thinking with some of those moves -- but that's not indicative of how things always are.

And fights can certainly be done poorly in the HK style, where there's nothing but leaping and spinning and slow motion and people being knocked back outrageous distances. Let's just leave it at "bad fights are bad, good fights are good", yeah?

Well Sylvester Stallone believes it's easier to teach a fighter to act than an actor to fight convincingly (and thus casted accordingly in his Rocky films) and I tend to agree with MLai that if the actor can't fight then they shouldn't do it as it tends to break verisimilitude (or results in nausea inducing shakey cam and sharp edits to hide that fact).

I hold that if you have the time to properly train the actor, and the actor is fit enough to do it themself, it'll be fine. I wouldn't say it's easy to teach people to act, since I've seen many people who ought to have been taught to act displaying that they can't really act, but I also wouldn't say that it's easy to teach people to fight. Teaching them enough of the basics and the right moves for the fights, however, is certainly doable. They don't need to be able to actually fight.

I hate the shakey camera. That's always just annoying.

Honestly, I think the wasted motion of sub-par HK choreography is worse. Silly jump cuts are at least better than the idea that evil kung fu foes never learn counters for all your dumb inefficient moves.

I'd say it's just as bad objectively, although all the jumping and spinning and all does make me wince a bit personally. Poor choreography of any style isn't going to look good. Good choreography will be a good example of its style, and then it's just a matter of taste.

As for maturing the franchise, the original incarnation of it by Eastman and Laird was perfectly mature (it was intended to be a satire of the current comic book culture of the time), unfortunately it got picked up by Viacom who missed the point and turned the Turtles into exactly what they were parodying in the first place.

Indeed.

What the heck are you going on about? You do realize that this is a franchise with ninjas, katanas, bos, nunchuks, and sais? Flashy kung fu is "wrong" for this franchise?

Since all of those are real weapons and things, they were all at one point used for actual combat, and thus choreographing them in a flashy way is not necessary. However, I'll certainly grant that having combat on the flashier things does make sense, what with it being a comic book adaptation and all.

Mostly I'm just arguing that western fight choreography is perfectly capable of being good, and in fact of being good and flashy if that's what's called for. I also find that the more weapons-oriented, more in your face and bloody style is more appropriate to the original comics than a largely unarmed and knockback style.

Oh, here's a bit showing her on set...

Well, visually I don't have a problem with her (looks more like the original comics version than the cartoon version did at least), but the important thing is whether or not she can act the part.

[Brother Oni]

That video... yeah. That's clearly very biased. The US version of the fight is pretty bad -- I can see a lot of those misses just looking through it once, they really need to pick up the pace, and I have no idea what they were thinking with some of those moves -- but that's not indicative of how things always are.

It's not just the moves - spot the crashmats and the conveniently places cardboard boxes. These are fairly regular staples of traditionally filmed US fight scenes.

And fights can certainly be done poorly in the HK style, where there's nothing but leaping and spinning and slow motion and people being knocked back outrageous distances. Let's just leave it at "bad fights are bad, good fights are good", yeah?

No complaints from me.

I hold that if you have the time to properly train the actor, and the actor is fit enough to do it themself, it'll be fine.

And also if the insurance people will let the actor do the stunt/fight scene. The commentary of Rush Hour mentions that Jackie Chan became fairly frustrated with the differences in filming in the US: if he wanted to do a stunt, the director has a look, then the producers, then the insurance guys (and possibly the legal department) and only when the stunt has been modified to make everybody happy, then they get to do it.
Compared back in HK, where if he wanted to go do a stunt, they just went and did it.

Even if conditions are perfect for having the actors do their own stunts and training, you run the risk of ending up with something like The Matrix, where the differences between the main fights where it's obviously been rehearsed to death (dojo fight) and the less important fights (subway fight) clearly show the actors' lack of experience.

I wouldn't say it's easy to teach people to act, since I've seen many people who ought to have been taught to act displaying that they can't really act, but I also wouldn't say that it's easy to teach people to fight. Teaching them enough of the basics and the right moves for the fights, however, is certainly doable. They don't need to be able to actually fight.

I didn't say it was easy either, just that Stallone thinks it's easier (or perhaps quicker) to teach a boxer to act decently than an actor to box convincingly.

I certainly agree that with sufficient choreography and good camera work, you can successfully fake it - take Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon. Chow Yuen Fat doesn't know martial arts but has the physicality and ability to fake it with the only scene where his character needs to show actual martial ability, being shot from an angle where you can't see the stunt double's face.

[Soras Teva Gee]

It's all about the money...remember all those big movies she's been in the last couple of years? No? Me neither.

There' might even be a fairly direct correlation.

While he's hated by serious critics and poor folks with nostalgia that imagine their precious robots were ever any good... I've always understood Michael Bay has a pretty good rep in the actual industry. Being a reliable performer at the box office of course, and actually pretty good with delivering on his budget. Which is fairly rare I also understand.

[MLai]

Megan Fox is... April O'Neill??
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO~~~~

@ East/West Fight Choreography:
I'm not saying Western is not good. I grew up with Eastern but I actually prefer Western... at least "New Western" which Bourne series exemplifies but did not originate.

I started TMNT with the original Eastman & Laird #1, it blew my young mind, so I would also personally love a bloody gritty TMNT with Bourne-like choreography. But we all know that will never happen. "Flashy kung fu" is gonna be what it is in Michael Bay's movie. So it might as well be good "flashy kung fu."

[pkoi]

It also helps that the turtles are small, so they won't have to waste time scaling the characters to match the stuntmen.

Is thinly veiled racism okay now?
No, the emoticon does not help.

[MLai]

Is thinly veiled racism okay now?
No, the emoticon does not help.

Actually it's not really.

(1) The Golden Harvest stuntmen are pretty small, i.e. less than 6 feet tall. You can't be good in that kind of work if you're too tall/big. Also if you're bigger than the stars that also poses a problem... you can't double for them and if you're playing a mook you make the star look less badass.

(2) At least in the old HK cinema days, a lot of the stuntmen come from the Peking Opera troupes, like Jackie Chan and his friends did. These are ppl selected as boys to be that type of stage actors, and like Chinese gymnasts the masters selected smaller boys and weeded out boys that grew too big.

[Brother Oni]

@ East/West Fight Choreography:
I'm not saying Western is not good. I grew up with Eastern but I actually prefer Western... at least "New Western" which Bourne series exemplifies but did not originate.

Slight thread derail: What film would you say the "New Western" fight choreography originated with?
The Matrix pretty much gave western fight choreography a huge kick in the arse, pushing it into the mainstream from its previous niche and that came out in 1999.
The Bourne Identity came out in 2002 - I can't really think of any western film between those two films that emphasises good unarmed combat on screen.

Is thinly veiled racism okay now?
No, the emoticon does not help.

There's a difference between discriminating on race and acknowledging that differences exist between races.

Further to MLai's post, prior to The Matrix, wire work was very thin on the ground for western actors as the rigs were not designed to take the weight of your typical western (re Caucasian) action star (not to mention all the guys on the other end of the rope complained).

Given the highly likelihood of 'flashy kung fu' in this film, I wouldn't be surprised if there was wire work (or CGI doubling for wire work) here.

[MLai]

The Matrix pretty much gave western fight choreography a huge kick in the arse, pushing it into the mainstream from its previous niche and that came out in 1999.
The Bourne Identity came out in 2002 - I can't really think of any western film between those two films that emphasises good unarmed combat on screen.

No, Matrix and Ray Park (Darth Maul 1999) re-popularized Eastern style choreography, but with Western actors. Charlie's Angels and Kill Bill followed up on this formula.

In the old days, we had David Carradine and Chuck Norris, Caucasians doing Eastern kung fu but with more Western sensibilities. The stars did high kicks but weren't flipping around like dem crazy Cantonese jumping beans. It wasn't deemed respectable, i.e. Hollywood didn't know how to do it. (IMHO.)
Then we had Van Damme, Seagal, Wesley Snipes, etc. Again, kung fu but with more "realistic/intimidating/hard-hitting" Western choreography.

Then the Wachowskis came along and basically said "**** it, we want Keanu Reeves and Laurence Fishburne to flip around and do fancy wing chun exchanges, like in those HK movies. Hire a HK choreographer." To underscore how hardcore this shift meant for the actors... Hugo Weaving needed hip surgery due to training injury (Wikipedia). HK MA movie choreography is no joke.

I don't know but I suspect that the introduction of HK choreography started the trend of Western movie stars "working harder" nowadays, what with the months of pre-production training, the stage injuries, etc.

Also in the old days, there were the manly action movie stars (exemplified by Ahnold and Stallone) and then the normal movie stars, and the 2 fields didn't cross over so much as now. Yeah, as a non-action movie star, you might star in a noir movie etc, and shoot pistols at mobsters. But if there's any scenes where you kick high, then you are an action movie star and you're not going to do any other types of movies.

Is Matrix 1999 where the overlap first occured? When audiences realized how cool it is to see normally non-action stars do big action movies? Nowadays it feels like if you don't do one action movie you're not a real Hollywood actor/ actress. FFS, Gwyneth Paltrow just did an action scene. WTF? Either the general work ethic in Hollywood rose, or CGI makes it easier to fake?

Slight thread derail: What film would you say the "New Western" fight choreography originated with?

Wow. Pose a hard question why don't you?

I think... maybe Passenger 57 (1992) starring Wesley Snipes? He's the guy who fights most similar to Bourne (2002), i.e. he's using martial arts techniques but demonstrates Western practicality.
I don't want to say Van Damme because his choreography was never consistently good.
I really like Seagal's style, but due to his increasing lack of athleticism I can't give him the most credit. Also he always had Bruce Lee Syndrome, i.e. no antagonist was ever a credible threat to him in a movie's combat. Anyways, Under Siege (1992) is his greatest movie in that respect.

[Felhammer]

When I was a kid, I loved all three Turtle movies. Each of them was great in their own way. I think the biggest difference between them was that each sequel was targeted towards a younger and younger audience. That doesn't make the movie worse, per se. To be honest, I think the first turtle movie was the weakest because it was so dark and gritty. Turtles are for kids. Obviously not originally but now-a-days, it's all about the kids. I hope this new movie makes Turtles a bit edgier, a little less kid friendly but there's just so much money to be had in kid friendly these days...