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2012-10-21, 09:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 23: Answer Unclear, Try Again
Well... why can't you? (On principle. I of course can't give detailed advice nor advice that should be paid great attention to without details.)
What you do is, don't change the topic; create the topic. If for example you want to take her out to a movie, first ask her about the movie and if she hasn't seen it then you can ask her whether she'd like to see it with you.
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2012-10-22, 02:41 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 23: Answer Unclear, Try Again
{Scrubbed}
Making a move is unlikely to work now - there's that whole "known you forever, don't wanna risk it" thing going against you - but seriously just do it. Remember what I said about social skills being skills with a strong learned component? You'll likely goof on earlier tries, but look at it as leveling your skills up. You'll learn what works and what doesn't, you'll get more confident, and you'll stop stressing.
I'll say this nicely once before going back to the classic Reluctance mode. What are you doing to force yourself out of your shell, to interact with other people, and to make yourself a more active, engaging, and interesting person? All of this "why is everything so danged hard?" just means you're letting your skills fail to advance. Which only means you fall further behind the curve as you (and by extension, your circle of peers) gets older.
(True story. The first time I tried asking a girl out, the hallway suddenly got very crowded and I couldn't get the words out properly. Forcing myself to socialize with bored bystanders (admittedly harder today when everybody has internet-connected devices) and asking for numbers was how I leveled my skills to the "competent" level. The rest is just a natural side-effect of normal social interaction.)Last edited by The Glyphstone; 2012-10-23 at 10:39 AM.
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2012-10-22, 02:58 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 23: Answer Unclear, Try Again
Last edited by The Glyphstone; 2012-10-23 at 10:39 AM.
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2012-10-22, 04:13 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 23: Answer Unclear, Try Again
{Scrubbed}
Last edited by The Glyphstone; 2012-10-23 at 10:37 AM.
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2012-10-22, 04:38 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 23: Answer Unclear, Try Again
What's in my heart is that I'm very much starting to like her as a friend and more and I'm scared that she's going to completely cut off from me if I tell her I like her. It's happened before. In fact, the usual pattern of my interaction with women is a sudden cessation of communication on their part. And no one can tell me why, not even my best friends.
A mixture of both I think. A relationship is a bond. Think back to chemistry. A hydrogen bond shares one electron, and is rather weak. Two carbons can share 3 electrons to have a really strong bond. The bond itself needs those electrons, and the atoms aren't quite whole without the bond, but they get by without it if they need to.
So, you can get some of the needs met with friends, but if your electrons are all shared with other hydrogens, how strong is your relationship going to be? They're your needs, but they're also the bond's needs in a way.
My analogy probably isn't perfect... And it's very much an opinion, just like the rest of what I've said on this topic.
I'm scared I'm going to lose what friendship I've built and I have no idea (well, not none, but little) idea of what she feels for me. PM me. I don't mind getting detailed, but I'd rather not in public (even anonymously).
What you do is, don't change the topic; create the topic. If for example you want to take her out to a movie, first ask her about the movie and if she hasn't seen it then you can ask her whether she'd like to see it with you.
How are tennis balls going to help?
Making a move is unlikely to work now - there's that whole "known you forever, don't wanna risk it" thing going against you - but seriously just do it. Remember what I said about social skills being skills with a strong learned component? You'll likely goof on earlier tries, but look at it as leveling your skills up. You'll learn what works and what doesn't, you'll get more confident, and you'll stop stressing.
I'll say this nicely once before going back to the classic Reluctance mode. What are you doing to force yourself out of your shell, to interact with other people, and to make yourself a more active, engaging, and interesting person? All of this "why is everything so danged hard?" just means you're letting your skills fail to advance. Which only means you fall further behind the curve as you (and by extension, your circle of peers) gets older.
I have started to force myself to randomly contact people during the day, just sending a "How are you doing?" text or similar. It works sometimes, but a lot of the people I know are students and so their chat time and hang out time is limited, and a lot of the time they'd rather be hanging out with people their age (guess I can't really blame them). Everything I could do to meet people my age costs money that I don't have.
As for making myself a more active, engaging, and interesting person... I'm not even sure what I'm supposed to do. Most of my interests are things no one outside the field cares about or are hard to share with someone who doesn't have the technical knowledge I do. It's hard to talk about the cool new algorithms someone has come up with if the person I'm talking to doesn't even really know what algorithms are in the first place, let alone understand the significance of dropping an n^2 function to an nlog(n) function (something about genetic sequencing).
(True story. The first time I tried asking a girl out, the hallway suddenly got very crowded and I couldn't get the words out properly. Forcing myself to socialize with bored bystanders (admittedly harder today when everybody has internet-connected devices) and asking for numbers was how I leveled my skills to the "competent" level. The rest is just a natural side-effect of normal social interaction.)
I'm also very bad at perceiving how others see me as a person. I'm constantly assuming that everyone thinks neutral thoughts of me at best, if they think of me at all, despite assurances to the contrary. But then I find out about things happening with groups that I think of as friends (from time to time) where it's clear I was never even thought of, or dismissed as a possible participant. I'm rarely if ever invited to random get-togethers and practically no one ever contacts me just to say hi or ask to hang out or anything else. Everyone is busy with everyone besides me (is what it feels like). And maybe they don't invite me because they figure I'll be busy, but I'd still like to be invited even if I have to say no! The old saying, "It's the thought that counts," does in fact have a point. Especially with someone like me.
On an aside and hopefully irrelevant topic, almost every single girl I meet is either in a relationship or actively avoiding them. There don't seem to be any single girls that are open to the idea of a relationship. I don't know if it's where I am or what, but it's been annoying in the past.Last edited by The Glyphstone; 2012-10-23 at 10:39 AM.
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2012-10-22, 05:27 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 23: Answer Unclear, Try Again
Very few girls will admit to looking for a relationship. Partially because it's a lot easier for them to find one if it's really a priority for them, partially because it can be seen as an invitation for all manner of clumsy come-ons. There's a whole social dance of subtext, and right now, learning by practice should be your priority.
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{Scrubbed}
Here's what I want you to do. Assuming you can get a good rate at the campus gym as a perk of being part of the school, start going regularly. Not because you want to become a greek god (although I'd be lying if I said it didn't help with the ladies), but because regular exercise makes you feel better.
You have the internet. By extension, all manner of information. Study up on normal person hobbies. Browse OKC to see what shows are popular with locals and catch up on Hulu. Find out about free cultural events nearby and see what you can attend.
Basically, doing things will give you a wider repertoire of things to talk about. That'll give you more options to talk to the normal people.Last edited by The Glyphstone; 2012-10-23 at 10:36 AM.
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2012-10-22, 05:41 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 23: Answer Unclear, Try Again
First, what I said was not "I don't get why you think occasional physical affection is such a big thing". I love physical affection. I'm a very tactile person. What I said was that how easily you think the other person will put out should not be a priority if you're looking for a serious relationship. Because in most cases, a serious relationship will get to that point sooner or later. But physical intimacy is not the thing that makes or breaks a relationship. Mostly, it's about personality. If you get on well with your partner, and you stay in the relationship, sex will be involved at some point down the line. If you don't get on with them, it doesn't matter how good or how early the sex is, the relationship isn't going to work.
All that aside, that STILL doesn't give you the right to ask me "did you get any?"
It's a completely inappropriate question and I am really rather offended. I would appreciate an apology.Quotebox
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2012-10-22, 05:45 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 23: Answer Unclear, Try Again
A lot of people aren't actively looking for a relationship. This usually means they wouldn't mind starting one if the oppurtunity presents itself with a person they like, but won't get into it very quickly or will seem to "avoid" them, because if they appear to others as if they are active looking, they think they might get into kinds of situations they don't want to get into (such as being hit on or get the "awkward come-ons" spoken of above).
When most people around you are like this, especially people you like and are interested in, your best bet is to just go about being yourself and talking to them as you would to other people so they get to know you. This does not necessarily mean hanging out (especially in groups, because then you give off a vibe that comes across as "let's be friends", rather than what Sholos seems to be looking for here (exceptions are big events and birthdays though)). At some point after a little while, when you've at least talked about some personal things, ask if they'd like to do something with just the two of you. If they agree, the chances they are interested in you are high. It still is not a certainty though (and if they invite other people along it's more likely the opposite and they really do just want to be friends).Homebrewer's Signature | Avatar by Strawberries
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2012-10-22, 06:18 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 23: Answer Unclear, Try Again
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2012-10-22, 06:42 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 23: Answer Unclear, Try Again
Wait, does that mean to hang out in something other than big groups or only big groups? I'm just having a bit of trouble parsing.
I think he's saying that on average, it's a lot easier for a girl to find someone who wants to be with them than the opposite. None of the girls I know that are single are for want of opportunity. They've all chosen to be single. And in at least one case not even that worked. She's getting married in January. I mean, she obviously chose to be with the guy, but before that she had actively been against a relationship of any kind.Last edited by Sholos; 2012-10-22 at 06:43 AM.
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2012-10-22, 06:53 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 23: Answer Unclear, Try Again
Last I heard, studies in the area found that while women have better luck than men when it comes to casual sex, men and women are both about the same when it comes to committed relationships. Which kinda makes sense considering, you know, there's usually two people involved in every relationship and most people are heterosexual (and I imagine there's reasonably equivalent numbers of lesbians and gay men), so for every woman who gets in a relationship there is (overall) a man who also gets in a relationship.
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2012-10-22, 06:58 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 23: Answer Unclear, Try Again
I understand his reasoning.. I just disagree with the premise that very few women say it when they want a relationship.
in my experience, women who are after that have very little qualms about saying so.
since my experience is contradicting his sweeping statement, that's why I called it a generalisation.
the very wording of "admitting it" sounds laced with bad memories and stereotypes where the women are all secretly out to lure a male prey, put a ring on it and be free to let themselves finally go.
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2012-10-22, 07:40 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 23: Answer Unclear, Try Again
My point was that by the time a girl is frustrated enough to tell total strangers/casual acquaintances that she's on the prowl, she's probably frustrated enough to drop her standards to the point where somebody becomes available. If you're talking relationship searching in general, some bizarre quirk in the alien female psyche leaves them unenthused about Mr. "meh, he's not much, but at least he'll have me".
That, and a woman who wants to broadcast that she's looking for a relationship is much more likely to play up nonverbal signals (mostly dress and body language) while maintaining plausible deniability with her words. Not playing gender wars here. Just explaining why human women prefer to be a little more subtle than flashing their engorged red buttocks when they're interested.
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2012-10-22, 07:43 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 23: Answer Unclear, Try Again
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2012-10-22, 07:53 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 23: Answer Unclear, Try Again
In my experience, women tend to say they are looking for a relationship when they are, and they tend to say they are not when, you know, they aren't. If they do say no when they are looking for one, it tends to mean "I really don't like you that way, but I'm trying to spare your feelings about it, and would rather you leave me alone about this". They also don't use dress to broadcast they're looking for a relationship. Many women just like to feel good about how they look, rather than dress pretty for all them males to know she wants a relationship. Women may also actually not be looking for a relationship and then get into one, not because they lied about their intentions, but because someone really interesting came along and they took that chance.
I'm... not entirely sure you understand women. Certainly not in general.
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2012-10-22, 08:35 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 23: Answer Unclear, Try Again
{Scrubbed}
Last edited by The Glyphstone; 2012-10-23 at 10:34 AM.
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2012-10-22, 08:54 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 23: Answer Unclear, Try Again
What self-deception? People find things they weren't looking for all the time.
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2012-10-22, 09:11 AM (ISO 8601)
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2012-10-22, 09:14 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 23: Answer Unclear, Try Again
I meant not to hang out in groups, because that gives off a very different vibe from just hanging out with the two of you. The exceptions are big events and birthdays, because it's a very different setting. If you go to events with someone you like, it feels kind of like a date, but it's also in a "safer" environment (at least, with most events this is the case; if you go to an erotica convention this is clearly different). Birthdays are "safe" by default, unless you invite the other person along to a birthday of someone they don't know.
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2012-10-22, 10:55 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 23: Answer Unclear, Try Again
Well, by necessity we have to talk in generalities till we get to a specific person and even then, we're still obligated to do so by a lack of intimate details and forum decorum.
In general, if a woman makes it openly known that she's looking for a beau, she's going to get a lot of unwanted attention and harassment, even and/or especially from her circle of male friends, depending.
In general, with the way it's set up, women have an easier time finding someone, but standards, social taboo, and various other factors I am either not aware of or don't particularly feel like expounding upon at length get in the way of that, like the inherent risks of being a ciswoman culturally and biologically.
And if a man is on the prowl/hunt/wossname and meeting women, the culturally expected reaction is to demur, even if she is currently on the market herself. At least, if I recall demur's usage in language properly, the dictionary is "eh, close enough." Which does seem to tie-in with the initial scenario that started this discussion. Admitting that you're also looking for someone to someone who is looking for someone is a quick way to send signals that one does not necessarily want sent, and certainly not before getting a better feel for the other person.
That's not supposed to be taken literally, you might object to the phraseology of the device, but that's not what Reluctance is thinking or espousing, necessarily. Usually it's a bit tough to tell, but this is one of the clearer examples of their use of figurative language as a form of emphasis, as far as I can tell anyway. Sarcasm usually not being one's personal views and all.
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2012-10-22, 02:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 23: Answer Unclear, Try Again
Ah, that's what I thought you were saying. And something I've definitely seen happen for other people. I always seem to run into walls when I do try and it's very discouraging. Walls include people being too busy to hang out with me, our schedules conflicting, or they're busy hanging out with other people. Or, the people that I do manage to hang out one-on-one are non-single or guys. I'm still trying, but it quickly gets frustrating when no one seems to have any time for me personally.
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2012-10-22, 07:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 23: Answer Unclear, Try Again
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2012-10-22, 08:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 23: Answer Unclear, Try Again
The thing is, this supposed "deception" that's being taken for granted is anything but. The claim that a girl is lying when she says she's not looking for a relationship if some time later she is in one is founded on three assumptions:
1. A girl is only capable of falling for someone if she is actively intending to do so,
2. Girls are incapable of changing their minds or being subject to changing circumstances, and
3. Girls have some sort of mystical power to see the future.
While the insistance that women are superhuman beings incapable of being merely wrong is flattering, it is not very useful in a respectful discussion of human relations.The Iron Avatarist Hall of Fame!
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2012-10-22, 09:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 23: Answer Unclear, Try Again
On the other hand, assuming that it's never a "white" lie also sets up a scenario where women are viewed as inconstant and incapable of knowing their own minds or choosing for themselves, which is what a number of unfortunate things from the past and present are predicated upon.
Carelessness and general humanness is more likely than malice like the old adage I'm forgetting the exact phraseology of, and all, and at the end of the day a no is a no is a no is a no, and getting told that she's not looking for someone is a fairly definitive no, which is the only thing that really matters for the purposes of romance.
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2012-10-22, 10:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 23: Answer Unclear, Try Again
There's a pretty huge range of possibility between "girls never ever tell lies" and "every single time a girl says something and then later does something that could be seen to contradict what she said before she's a dirty rotten liar" - the latter of which being the only option put forth thus far.
And it's pretty damn straightforward to go with "either way, that's a no" without going into all sorts of baseless and pointless accusations, generalisations and demonisation, and it'd be nice to see that happen more often.Last edited by Serpentine; 2012-10-22 at 10:11 PM.
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2012-10-23, 12:27 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 23: Answer Unclear, Try Again
Sheriff: Thread locked for review.
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2012-11-15, 11:48 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 23: Answer Unclear, Try Again
The Rainbow Mod: Thread re-opened for posting.
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2012-11-15, 12:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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2012-11-15, 01:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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2012-11-15, 01:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Relationship Woes and Advice 23: Answer Unclear, Try Again
Horray! It's back! So how be the woes and the advisers? Anything good or bad happening?
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