Relationship Woes and Advice 23: Answer Unclear, Try Again

[AtlanteanTroll]

That's rough man. In some ways I'm surprised she didn't just star avoiding the topic/just cut you off after you suggested meeting to talk with dinner and a movie, so it's good she still wants to be friends. Unless you'd rather not, but you sound like the sort of guy who'd still enjoy her company.

[Rawhide]

I am SUCH an idiot!

So if you've been aware of my previous posts (they're kind of all over the place), there's this girl I've liked for a while now, decided to send her flowers. The conversation that followed went something like this:

Spoiler

Show

It was over whatsapp, because we live a while away from one another.

Her: Hey I got your flowers. :) But I think it's best we stay friends.
Me: Why's that?
I mean; you don't even want to try dating for a while?
No I can't, I'm already dating someone, and that's going too well.
Oh, so I'm too late?
Uhhm, yea, I guess.
But who is it? I'm curious.
And I don't think I can really see you as boyfriend
You're a good friend, but no more
Nice guy from civil engineering study, you don't know him
Why no more? I didn't do anything wrong did I? didn't violate your trust did I?
Tell me what I did please
No you didn't do anything wrong...
It's just that I like you and no more than that
That's possible, but you never know until you try.
Plus, I thought you said no more a friend...
Said what?
That you said that I was no longer a friend, but that's not it.
No
You remain a friend
At least I have that, but I still think we should meet sometime, because using whatsapp is a little unclear.
Not a date, just as friends.
(this whole conversation above was over the course of half an hour, with quick responses from both, there's now a two-minute pause, longest yet)
Or not? You seem undecided
I'm busy, that's why it sometimes takes a while
I see you often enough at the society.. I'd like to talk then
En arranging a meeting is fine, but inded just as friends
How about tomorrow for dinner/movie? (Out to dinner and theater or staying at home with pizza and a dvd, your call)
Listen I like you and you're a great, sweet guy, but there's no more in it for me. I don't feel attracted to you, that happens.. But I'd like to stay friends and this way you're kind of ruining that too
Oh sorry, didn't mean to, what do you propose?
Well the way it's going now.. at the society being good company
Fine by me, I'm not there often anymore, but when I am, we can talk some.
Yes indeed
That's just good company

(for the dutch people out there, 'good company' is actually 'gezellig' but there's no real translation)

What do I do/how should I react? Also, the society is basically a frat/sorority in one, mixed gender, that kind of thing

Holy moly, I cringed as I read that. You shouldn't have been quite that... persistent. Asking why the first time is understandable, but the follow up sentence was unnecessary. It, and all of your followup questions, come off as a pushy "Why won't you date me? Can you please give it a try? I don't care that you have a boyfriend, please can you give it a try?" - Also, you shouldn't have asked who it is. She'll volunteer it if you're welcome to know.

The questions should have stopped as soon as she said she had a boyfriend. Say something mild to deflect your disappointment (e.g. "lucky guy"), confirm that you are happy with being just friends, and indicate that you look forward to seeing her at the next event you are both probably going to be at.

[Sholos]

I had a similar experience recently. Told a girl that I like her, her response is that she really likes me, but not like that. Very, very frustrating.

[AtlanteanTroll]

I had a similar experience recently. Told a girl that I like her, her response is that she really likes me, but not like that. Very, very frustrating.

I think many of us have been in that situation. It's almost worse than the girl having a boyfriend. Because if there's a boyfriend and she likes you as a friend, there is always a chance that that won't work out ... But that's not really a healthy way of thinking, IMO. As frustrating as it is, it usually works out for the better. Or so I have found.

[Lazy Genius]

I know I was probably too persistent, but I guess that by the way she said it (at least in Dutch it seemed more that way), it didn't seem that she had a boyfriend per se, and seemed more like she was just dating someone. But the more I think about it now she was just subtly saying "I don't like you that way, I have a boyfriend", which, however painful it is, is at least the truth.

To be fair, I'm probably a bit socially awkward (I think), I know how to act like the boyfriend, as well as the close guy friend, just not how to make the transition between the two. I've never had to do both at the same time, which I guess is what I was trying here?

[Serpentine]

I think that if a girl (or a guy, for that matter) tells you she's not interested in you, then "why not?" and "can't you just give me a chance?" are useless questions. In my experience, a lot of the time there is no specific reason, much less a good reason, why a girl isn't romantically interested in someone they otherwise like. I've known a dozen amazing, sexy people that by all rights I should be madly in love with, but was not and knew I never would be. I've gone out with a couple of them, and I'm tired of doing that; even when it's not completely disastrous, I still feel like a fraud and people get hurt.
If any of those people ask me "why aren't you interested in me?", I have no good answer. If any of them ask me "can't you just give me a chance?", my answer would be "because I already know it will fail, and I'm sick of hurting people." It would also reinforce my decision to decline because they can't respect my feelings.
Basically, "I'm not interested in anything more than friendship with you" should be sufficient. There is no way pushing it after that is going to go well.

Also: TIL that any time a girl expresses her body image issues she should be dismissed as "just fishing for compliments", either ignored or punished for it. Because it's such a terrible thing for a girl to seek reassurance that despite all the offensive flaws she sees in her own appearance her partner still finds her attractive regardless. Yay!
See also: #3 here.

[Rawhide]

I would consider "why not" a fair question, if you're looking to see if she's not interested, has a boyfriend, bats for the other team, etc. If you want to know why she's not interested, on the other hand, then she may very well not know and probably doesn't want to go into it if she does.

[Serpentine]

The "why not?" comes after the "no, I only want to be friends" which comes after the "would you go out with me?"

[Rawhide]

The "why not?" comes after the "no, I only want to be friends" which comes after the "would you go out with me?"

I only want to be friends because I'm not interested in you that way.
I only want to be friends because I'm seeing someone.
I only want to be friends because I'm moving away in 3 weeks.
I only want to be friends because...

[noparlpf]

In my opinion the "why not?" just feels pushy and a little bit desperate. It doesn't really matter. I'd leave it out altogether. And like my mother said when I was a small child, "no means no, and the more you protest, the less likely it becomes that the answer will change." I assume a similar rule holds here.

Edit: Having been asked "why not?" before, I'm talking about my personal experience. I have no idea what normal people feel when asked "why not?" I just like to pretend that I'm normal and that humans are relatively similar to me.

Edit: And you know, the more time you spend fighting the "no", the longer you'll end up stuck on it when you could--should--be moving on.

[Serpentine]

You're adding an additional step. I'm talking about saying "But why not?" when she's already said "I'm not interested in you that way." In the original context, Lazy Genius was given 3 "no"s and 2 "why"s and he was still pushing it. I guess the wording of the first "no" was ambiguous enough that his first "why not?" isn't so bad, but every demand for more detail after that definitely was. (sorry to rub it in, Genius, you're just the immediate example)
And really, even then a no is still a no. As I've said before, it's very, very hard to seek an explanation without it coming across as an accusatory interrogation with the intent of changing her mind, and I don't believe there's any likely enough positive result to make it worth the risk of making an awkward situation even more awkward.

edit: Actually, scratch all that.

I only want to be friends because I'm not interested in you that way.
I only want to be friends because I'm seeing someone.
I only want to be friends because I'm moving away in 3 weeks.
I only want to be friends because...

"I only want to be friends" is the only answer anyone needs to give. The ask-outer is not entitled to any more explanation, and the ask-outee is not obligated to supply one.

[ShadowFireLance]

Gack.
I am in literal Relationship hell now.
The "It's complicated" status on facebook doesn't even begin to discribe it...

Okay, So, a few months back, I posted problems, and got some pretty awesome advice.
Welp, im back.

So, a Yesterday, I went to this Awesome Party, and we did a odd version of "Cash cab", but that's besides the point, Said Girl interest was at party, Which consisted of three stops, First at her house, 2nd at Friend#2 Who comes in later, 3rd stop at no one importent's house, and Back to Girl's place.
So, I'm hanging out, you know, having a good time, When I decide to go outside.
Well, Said Girl and Friend #2 where outside, throwing a football, Now, This wouldn't mess with me, except for two things:
1) Three People, who are not best friends of her's, but close friends, Say she likes Friend #2.
2) I actually got to talk to her, alone, and I asked, And I think I can quote:

Can I ask you a question?
Sure, what?
Well, I really wish you would tell me, Do you like me, or [Friend #1, who has no more interest in her.] More?
Uh, Well..Uh, I really can't say.
Do you like [Friend #2?]
No! That would be gross!

*She walks back inside.*
So..Do I need to do anything else, Have i gone to far...Halp!
Also, i did give her a Awesome Valentine's day present.

Edit: I'm also going to be seeing her tomorro...Damn, I mean in 9 Hours.

[Rawhide]

It's only natural to want to know a bit about why the person has turned you down, and in some instances (not all) it should be ok to ask.

If you had asked someone out at the bar and they turned you down, then there is really nothing more to say. But if you ask a really good friend out, and they say that they wish to remain friends, then asking why that is the case (not pushing, not asking for specifics, not trying to change their mind, but finding out what category it falls into) would be acceptable. But you have to word it carefully and be clear of your intent.

The person that has turned them down can of course refuse to answer (and has no obligation to answer), but would a true friend leave it at that if the above had been followed?

e.g.
Her: Hey I got your flowers. :) But I think it's best we stay friends.
Him: Why's that?
Her: I'm already dating someone, and that's going too well
Him: Ah, dang. Lucky guy.


It's only that first why I was talking about.

[noparlpf]

But if there's no reason besides "I don't feel that way" or "I don't feel like it would work", which is more commonly the case, then that's already conveyed by the "no, I don't feel that way".

[Rawhide]

But if there's no reason besides "I don't feel that way" or "I don't feel like it would work", which is more commonly the case, then that's already conveyed by the "no, I don't feel that way".

Then that's your answer. In the above example, that has never been said. If it had been said, then the "why's that" question wouldn't be appropriate.

[Serpentine]

Meh. I think that in the majority of cases the "why won't you go out with me?" is a defensive, self-entitled interrogation, that even when it's not it can very easily be perceived as that especially when the other person is probably already feeling guilty and awkward, and that there's not enough cases where the answer would actually be useful to justify that risk.

Change of subject tiem!
Random musings: I'm having some fun with my singleness, and watching the relationships of people around me evolve. On the other hand, for the first time I think since high school I fancy someone who doesn't appear to fancy me. I don't mind, it's kinda fun still, but I wish I knew whether I've been making him uncomfortable... Oh well, just gotta exercise them social skills.
Oh shi-

[Thufir]

Also: TIL that any time a girl expresses her body image issues she should be dismissed as "just fishing for compliments", either ignored or punished for it. Because it's such a terrible thing for a girl to seek reassurance that despite all the offensive flaws she sees in her own appearance her partner still finds her attractive regardless. Yay!

Well, if she is saying it specifically to seek that reassurance, technically she is fishing for compliments, but there's nothing wrong with that.
My only problem with complimenting girls like that, or anyone under similar circumstances, is the number of times it's seemed like my words fell on deaf ears.
(I realise that's how self-image issues work, they don't just go away because someone disagrees with your self-assessment, but a fair number of times it's seemed like people either ignored my opinion or assumed I was just saying it to be nice and didn't actually believe it)

Meh. I think that in the majority of cases the "why won't you go out with me?" is a defensive, self-entitled interrogation, that even when it's not it can very easily be perceived as that especially when the other person is probably already feeling guilty and awkward, and that there's not enough cases where the answer would actually be useful to justify that risk.

From my perspective, the only really sensible reason I can think of for a (carefully phrased) "Why not?" is if I were asking someone out who I knew quite well and thought I definitely had a chance with - simply because I would want to know if I was misreading signals, or if there were some particular circumstances preventing the relationship. If I thought she (or he) was definitely attracted to me, I'd want to know if I was mistaken or if there was some other reason, for the sake of my own confidence in future. Similar to why it's sometimes nice to know why you didn't get a job you applied for.
The other point of significance is that people can't really be expected to always be sensible when it comes to emotional matters such as this - I mean, that's one of the big reasons this thread exists, after all; outside observers can look at things more sensibly than those in the situation often because they're separated from the emotions of it.

[Lazy Genius]

I agree wth most of what was said here, (though in situations like this 'Lazy' is a better nickname than 'Genius' XD), and to be fair, I technically only asked why once, but inquried too much anyway. Add some misunderstanding and you have an awkward situation. Also, it needs to be said that in the end I felt like saying things like "But why won't you just at least try, nag nag nag, etc..."

Though in all honesty, I think I misinterpreted the following: She came on to be hard when she had a boyfriend, stuff like dressing trashy at a "Trashy/Classy" party and giving JUST me a lipstick kiss on my cheek, but ceased all advances when they broke up. This should've set me off about something. Not even sure what it means but it should've told me she wasn't actually into me, now that I look back on it...

[Marillion]

Genius, that sounds to me like she was dissatisfied with her relationship and enjoying the feeling of someone liking her, and then when it suddenly became a possibility she found she didn't like you like that. Unfortunate, but not necessarily indicative of intentional manipulation or "using" on her part.

So anyway. There's this hostess at the restaurant I work at who quite obviously has a crush on me. For a while, she had a boyfriend, so I'd tease her but nothing more. However, she recently became single and I find myself not knowing what to do. Literally everyone I work with has at one point or another shipped the two of us or at the least acknowledged the chemistry, but I'm reluctant to pursue her for a few reasons. She's 18 and I'm 23, though she seems mature for her age. She is, as I mentioned, a co-worker.

And the big one: I'm not sure how much of my attraction to her is actually reciprocal, and how much is just me enjoying the fact that someone has a crush on me for the first time ever. Not that other girls never liked me, I just never knew about it until months after it was relevant. It's quite a heady feeling, I'll say that! Now, if she weren't a co-worker, I don't think I'd hesitate to explore this feeling until I resolved it. If she were older, I'd feel more confident that she would be emotionally mature enough to handle it if we didn't work out. But if this doesn't work out, it has the possibility of spilling into my work life and I just don't want to deal with that. Thoughts?

[Jack Squat]

Thoughts?

I've never seen a work relationship end and everyone was fine afterwords. I've seen some work relationships work well - heck, that's how both my parents and my little brother and his wife met; but if it ends between you guys, it doesn't matter how old either of you are - it'll be messy because someone won't be able to check their personal feelings at the door.

I'm not saying don't go for it, in fact I'd say you should at least try a date or two to see if it'll work out. Just don't jump in without knowing what could happen.

[dehro]

the whole "why not?" debate reminds me of an anecdote that is part of family lore..
my dad, whose english never was of the highest quality but who is still able to make himself understood, was at a trade show in Germany, many years ago.. a colleague of his who only had a very very basic level of English language skills wanted to hook up with a pretty local girl so asked my dad for a few pointers and then took a dive with those meager instruments..
in mostly hand gestures and broken English he asked the girl out in front of everybody and when she said no, he replied

"because???"
instead of "why", of course

[TroubleBrewing]

I'm in something of a bind. I've been dating the same girl for the last three years, and we moved in together November of '11. Trouble is, I'm not in love with her. I'm not sure how to go about ending the relationship when we share the same group of friends.

As an additional complication, my best friend is very, very fond of her, and I'm standing for him in his upcoming wedding. She's going to be there, and I really don't want to force him to choose who to invite. This means we've got to stay friends, whatever the cost.

What do I do? I'd love to think that I could just give her the "lets be friends" speech, but after three years, I think she deserves better.

[inexorabletruth]

Ouch... that is a bind. I agree with you that this has to be dealt with delicately and that she deserves better. Obviously, even though you don't love her you still care about her a lot and it would be terrible if bridges were burnt.

Start with this:
Have you spoken to your best friend about this? If the two of you know her well, then he would be the single best perspective you could gain for this situation. Don't let him "handle this" but the two of you could do a lot to personalize a solution to her emotional need.

Other than that, I can only offer generic advice:

1. Have you gotten the vibe about how she feels? What if she's just going through the motions too? It's possible she, like you is ready to just be friends.
2. Think about the timing. Right before you two are supposed to be attending someone's wedding is obviously a bad time, but she still deserves your honesty and respect. Don't string her along any longer than you have to, otherwise you may be making this confession at your own wedding.
3. For the love of god, do not let her be the last to know. Let her leave with some dignity. Talk to her privately before she hears through the network that those old feelings are gone.
4. It's going to get weird. Break ups are rarely clean, especially if the feelings aren't mutual. If you too are living together it's going to be even weirder. I recommend finding your own place. Oh... and prepare to get vilified. She's going to want to salvage her ego in the breakup, and that could result in ex-bf bashing, rumor slinging and other hurtful things. This is a temporary stage that will hopefully pass.
5. Prepare for the worst. Some people don't break up well. Some burn bridges completely and just walk away from the inferno. Others cling to false hope, begging to be taken back. Some take the rejection quietly and live out their relationship vicariously through your future gfs or by stalking you. I can't really give you advice on how to deal with that, but it happens frequently enough to be worthy of mention.
6. Finally, make sure you're right about how you feel. Three years represents a pretty good commitment. It could be that the love is still there, it's just the "spark" has faded. That's natural too. The excitement of being in love is a biological function, a heady hormonal cocktail, designed to make us meet and mate so we can continue the species, but it's a pretty strong chemical that the brain (in our best interest) slows production of after about two years into a relationship.

[TroubleBrewing]

Wow, some really good points to consider. I figure I'll address each one.

1) As far as I know, she's content with where we're at.
2) The timing isn't too horrible. The wedding is in September, so there's a bit of a gap.
3) Absolutely. That's the main reason I asked here first.
4/5) Yeah... I'm intimately familiar with the quintessential ugly break up.
As for 6... Yeah, I'm sure.

[inexorabletruth]

If she wants to keep the relationship going, then the breakup is way less likely to be clean. At least you have time for things to cool down before the wedding. My suggestion, if you're absolutely sure, is to get your ducks in a row and sit her down for a nice private chat as soon as possible.

Public places like coffee shops may seem like a great idea because she can't go ballistic on you, but it's also a little unfair because she will be unable to express her feelings for the risk of embarrassment. Give her the opportunity to express herself in a private setting, preferably where either one of you could leave if the time seems right to do so. The closure that comes from sharing her feelings and final words with you during a breakup can be very cathartic and expedite the healing process.

Of course, I suppose it depends on how she tends to act when she's upset. If she reacts violently (throws stuff, slaps, scratches, whatever) when she's upset. Meet with her at a coffee shop, diner, wherever you feel comfortable (make sure you each have your own mode of transportation). At least there if she tries to accuse you of attacking her, you've got a room full of witnesses to the contrary, and it will kind of keep her from flying off the handle too much... but this is only assuming she goes crazy when she gets bad news. Please don't do this to a nice girl.

Good luck, soldier.

[Coidzor]

Are you still living with this woman at present?

If so, I hope you have made an exit plan for ceasing to live with her, especially if your stuff is ejected through an upstairs window, before you go through with breaking up with her.

[TroubleBrewing]

I am still living with her. I'm not too concerned about my stuff going out the window. She keeps a cool head much of the time.

[ForzaFiori]

Has anyone ever been turned down for being the wrong race before? On Valentine's day, I asked out a friend of mine who I thought was interested in me, and apparently she only dates black people...

I really don't know how to feel about this... On one hand, I understand that everyone gets their own opinion on who you like. On the other though, it seems kinda racist to turn me down because my skin is a bit too light and my hair is straight... On the third hand (I'm Zaphod Beeblebrox right now), it feels a little racist myself just to be annoyed with it.

I guess I'm just curious about anyone else's experience with this... or advice on how to make blackface look convincing. (and before you suggest it, I know that saying forget about it and then not caring would be the best idea. Believe it or not, I'm finding that difficult, which is why I'm here.)

[Coidzor]

Has anyone ever been turned down for being the wrong race before? On Valentine's day, I asked out a friend of mine who I thought was interested in me, and apparently she only dates black people...

No, but I've had a situation where I didn't know what to do because I encouraged two of my friends who were having good chemistry and seeming to be on the cusp of forming a relationship to go for it and it turned out that the girl couldn't feel comfortable in a relationship with the guy because he was black and she was white.

I about went apoplectic when I first heard, but they managed to get through it civilly and even partially patch things. Certainly their mutual friendship outlasted my friendship with her and my room-mate relationship with him.

I really don't know how to feel about this... On one hand, I understand that everyone gets their own opinion on who you like. On the other though, it seems kinda racist to turn me down because my skin is a bit too light and my hair is straight... On the third hand (I'm Zaphod Beeblebrox right now), it feels a little racist myself just to be annoyed with it.

Well, it is a tad dehumanizing all around, or at least that's one of the ways of playing it. It's racist to say "I only date X" or "I will never date Y," but more nebulous to simply never be attracted to Y or only having ever been attracted to X historically.

So if she'd just said she wasn't attracted to you, that'd be one thing, but this is quite another and is made the more odd because you're apparently friends with her. So I guess part of how to read it is based upon how abrasive she is as a friend in general.

[ForzaFiori]

Well, it is a tad dehumanizing all around, or at least that's one of the ways of playing it. It's racist to say "I only date X" or "I will never date Y," but more nebulous to simply never be attracted to Y or only having ever been attracted to X historically.

So if she'd just said she wasn't attracted to you, that'd be one thing, but this is quite another and is made the more odd because you're apparently friends with her. So I guess part of how to read it is based upon how abrasive she is as a friend in general.

She said, "I only like black guys" if it makes a difference. And she was a great friend (I haven't really talked to her since this - I've only seen her once, and I kinda wanna figure out how I feel about everything first.). We got along fine, had shared interests, she even seemed to get my typically weird humor, and I thought we were even flirting a couple times (though she could just be one of those people that flirts with everyone...). She was even really nice when she turned me down, which made the reasoning seem even stranger too me.