General Exalted Discussion XII: One More and Get a Free Deathlord

[golentan]

They already don't, like most (all?) other non-Excellency success-adders.

It's still a really boring Charm.

To complete a one-dot artifact in a single interval would require 13 successes.

Oh, right, I always forget that the 2nd excellency is the exception that counts against dice caps, not the rule. So it's better than I thought.

Also, not disputing that it's boring, I just don't think that that is an automatic problem with the charm design. Boring but Practical describes a fair number of low level charms.

[Ifni]

Say, Plague, while you're around, could there be an official ruling on stacking Hearthstone Bracers + misc? Like Jade Hearthstone Bracers + Jade weapon or Moonsilver Bracers + Armor + Moonsilver Infinite Resplendent Amulet?

Isn't the first one explicitly clarified in the errata? p.15:
"Bonuses from equipment (including magical material bonuses) do not stack with one another; the character enjoys only the best among his various modifiers. For example, a Dragon-Blooded character with a jade daiklave and jade hearthstone bracers would only lower his Speed by one point - the two magical material bonuses will not stack to produce Speed -2."

[Plague of Hats]

The key thing about 2E crafting is that the system you mechanically interact with is boring as hell. Nearly all the Charms that deal with it are ways of mitigating it, to reduce the amount you actually have to deal with it. You just sit there hoarding successes until you reach a magical, generally stupid-high number. Or, if you even marginally exploit the rules for assistants and plans from Oadenol's, you do only a little of what I just said, and then completely crush the system into nothingness because some writers are bad at or do not care about math.

(Come to think of it and to be "fair", maybe the author just hated the Craft system. So, you know, they're bad at self-editing to build a coherent system, instead of bad at math. It's a toss-up!)

Spoiler

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(Pro-tip: It's probably both.)

The plans subsystem even aggravates the wider problem, because it encourages eschewing creativity for using the published books as a shopping list. Find plans, deposit successes, get spaceship/laser gun/nuke. Of course a Storyteller can ignore this encouragement easily enough, but it's just one more thing there, digging in its heels and making the system unpleasant enough that you throw up your hands and give up.

The interesting parts are all before and after the actual Craft system, and the before part is on really shaky ground itself: Exotic components, which tend to be described in the books in the most lackluster way possible. "Go find a thing, I guess. Here's some suggestions of 'a thing', but we won't give you guidance on how to actually make this stuff interesting to get. Ask your Storyteller to skip it. It's like a quicktime event for tabletop RPGs: Press button to not be bored out of your skull!"

[Plague of Hats]

Say, Plague, while you're around, could there be an official ruling on stacking Hearthstone Bracers + misc? Like Jade Hearthstone Bracers + Jade weapon or Moonsilver Bracers + Armor + Moonsilver Infinite Resplendent Amulet?

As mentioned, the general rule is "no stacking." But, in the rat's nest left over from years of stacking exploits recklessly written into the game, you're going to have to either rewrite all the boring, low-level bonuses, or just massage the "no stacking" rule a little. If something gives you +2 soak, you should probably go ahead and allow it to stack with other sources of soak unless you want to go to the trouble of making an all-new, interesting power that doesn't run into that problem.

Also, not disputing that it's boring, I just don't think that that is an automatic problem with the charm design. Boring but Practical describes a fair number of low level charms.

"Boring but Practical" being a common label for Charms is one of 2E's high crimes.

[Turalisj]

"Boring but Practical" being a common label for Charms is one of 2E's high crimes.

Every system I've played so far has had that problem with low level supernatural powers. Except generic systems like GURPs, MnM, or FATE. It's a sacred cow from the days of 1e DnD.

[omegalith]

Every system I've played so far has had that problem with low level supernatural powers. Except generic systems like GURPs, MnM, or FATE. It's a sacred cow from the days of 1e DnD.

It's not really a problem or a sacred cow so much as common sense: Practicality is it's own reward, and having a foundation of bread and butter abilities that'll build up your character's abilities is much more sensible in the long run than a bunch of gimicky tricks that are rendered utterly obsolete by your upgraded high-level gimicky tricks.

Anyhow, the "solution" already exists: Infernals have all kinds of simple boring abilities that are made interesting by dumping in a few paragraphs telling you why it makes you more like an angry planet-sized city with indigestion or whatever.

[Rikandur Azebol]

Heh, for a Planet sized ... it doesn't even touch the tip of the iceberg. I think that manga "Blame!" is touching the size matters of Autobot and Malfeas more.

[Exthalion]

Heh, for a Planet sized ... it doesn't even touch the tip of the iceberg. I think that manga "Blame!" is touching the size matters of Autobot and Malfeas more.

While, Malfeas is explicitly a dyson sphere and I seem to recall reading that Creation could be inside Autochthonia and the Eight wouldn't even notice.

There are certain soft limits on Autochthon's size though since trade between the Octet and the poles is considered feasible though portals might be involved.

[Tavar]

I think it's less portals and more that Autochthonia has a somewhat light connection to distance. I mean, it's already bigger on the inside. Quite easy, at that point, for there to be be multiple paths that are technically shorter than a straight line journey.

[Kobold-Bard]

I think it's less portals and more that Autochthonia has a somewhat light connection to distance. I mean, it's already bigger on the inside. Quite easy, at that point, for there to be be multiple paths that are technically shorter than a straight line journey.

Maybe Autobot adapted the Charm that's responsible for it taking 5 days to cross Celeyne no matter how fast you go, so no matter how far apart those two cities are it always takes the same amount of time to get from one to the other.

[omegalith]

As Cecelyne defines space within herself, it's pretty likely that she just tries to be as expansive and desolate as she can comprehend herself being (Which is pretty dang big, apparently) and you only ever come across anything that isn't more endless sand because she deliberately decided you were going to come across it. The five days to cross deal? That's in the rules. The rules are very important. Five days to cross, don't look at blue things.

The others don't bother puffing up and exaggerating as much. Bigness is just something they do, it's not really a big deal, y'know?

Heck, ED is only about 50*2*2 miles in volume.

[Amechra]

Which begs the question: who is the biggest Yozi?

'Cause I thought that honor fell to the Pompadour Pig, what with brushing the stars with his back and warping the heavens and all.

[Qwertystop]

Celecyne might or might not be biggest. How fast is measurer and is he measuring from inside?

[Turalisj]

Isidoros once used Cecelyne to do his business in.

They are still cleaning it up, but that is how she became known as the desolate waste and why nothing can grow there.

[Dragnar]

Which begs the question: who is the biggest Yozi?

'Cause I thought that honor fell to the Pompadour Pig, what with brushing the stars with his back and warping the heavens and all.

Sheer size, cecelyne is infinite, full stop. The 5 days thing is a limitation on how long it can take to reach Malfeas/Creation through her, but it in no way makes her any less infinite. The universe isn't smaller just because two points in it happen to be (relatively) close together!

Mass, Isidoros probably wins. His physical massive-boar body is relatively small, but it can also open up into a portal to his world-body. Which is apparently literally nothing but an infinite amount of pure super-dense mass. Despite that making very little sense.

[Exthalion]

The discussion is also meaningless for size or mass. Given that anything in the endless desert has mass, Cecelyne's mass is infinite. Malfeas is also infinite in size meaning he is also infinite in mass. Mass and size are currently separated but seeing a couples therapist inside Oramus between giving birth to their own fathers and turning inside out to become their own children. In the sphere of speech it has been noticed that size and mass have the same number of letters and are so identical my means of word alchemy, exchanging one letter at a time to turn one into another with a meaningful word at every stage. Etc.

The Black Bore likely has the highest density though.

[Dragnar]

Malfeas is ridiculously massive. He isn't infinite, seeing as he has both outermost and innermost layers. And believe it or not, even assuming Isidoros and Cecelyne are both infinite in size and mass? Cecelyne can still be larger, and Isidoros can still be more massive.

...Math is weird sometimes.

[Exthalion]

Malfeas is ridiculously massive. He isn't infinite, seeing as he has both outermost and innermost layers. And believe it or not, even assuming Isidoros and Cecelyne are both infinite in size and mass? Cecelyne can still be larger, and Isidoros can still be more massive.

...Math is weird sometimes.

The set of natural numbers is the same size as the set of natural odd numbers. This is despite the fact that the natural number contains the set of natural odd numbers. Math is indeed weird at time.

As for how Malfeas can have a top and a bottom but still be infinite: Easy, you just need another dimension. Ceycelyne is infinite and yet Creation and Malfeas are on opposite sides of her. As an easy illustration, malfeas is a 4d version of a cylinder with finite height and infinite radius.

[omegalith]

...Or they're abstract worlds based more on fulfillment of concept than physical law.

There's still underlying consistent principles, they just all happen to root back to aspects of the Titan's nature rather than things like "gravity" and "size" more suited to literally applying in concrete realities that don't rely on the maintaining force of a singular being.

Elloge isn't weirder than the others, she just isn't making any pretense of not being a vague ball of concept held together by power and will.

[Amechra]

And omegalith wins the prize!

[The_Snark]

I don't think Malfeas is ever described as infinite in the same way that Cecelyne or Qaf are. He's large enough that the difference is basically academic, nobody will ever see or map all of him, but thematically it's important: he was reduced from the formless infinite essence of the Empyreal Chaos into something lesser. Still gigantic, but definitely bound by physical constraints.

[Exthalion]

...Or they're abstract worlds based more on fulfillment of concept than physical law.

There's still underlying consistent principles, they just all happen to root back to aspects of the Titan's nature rather than things like "gravity" and "size" more suited to literally applying in concrete realities that don't rely on the maintaining force of a singular being.

Elloge isn't weirder than the others, she just isn't making any pretense of not being a vague ball of concept held together by power and will.

I gather she had less to do with the creation of mankind though which is why she seems weirder than others. Even She Who Lives in Her name seems more comprehensible even if she is just as alien.

I don't think Malfeas is ever described as infinite in the same way that Cecelyne or Qaf are. He's large enough that the difference is basically academic, nobody will ever see or map all of him, but thematically it's important: he was reduced from the formless infinite essence of the Empyreal Chaos into something lesser. Still gigantic, but definitely bound by physical constraints.

I seem to recall that he was proven to be immeasurable in size. So yes, the difference between Malfeas arbitrarily large size and other yozi's infinitely large size is academic. Come to think of it, are any of them besides the Endless Desert called out as being infinite? I don't recall if Qaf was called out as being infinite or just having a height that is measured in enlightenment and not meters.

[Gareth3]

Qaf is a mountain with no summit and no base, so he's infinite in one dimension.

[omegalith]

Qaf is a mountain with no summit and no base, so he's infinite in one dimension.

Either that or you loop back around to where you started after a few thousand miles and he amuses himself by humming the Benny Hill music as he watches people try to reach the "top".

[Exthalion]

Either that or you loop back around to where you started after a few thousand miles and he amuses himself by humming the Benny Hill music as he watches people try to reach the "top".

He is also explicitly not a straight line.

[Lord Raziere]

Either that or you loop back around to where you started after a few thousand miles and he amuses himself by humming the Benny Hill music as he watches people try to reach the "top".

Um no.

what I remember of Qaf, is that the more enlightened you are, the higher you get on him, eventually reaching the peak and being completely enlightened.

the catch however, is that to get down you must somehow become less enlightened until you reach the base again.

[omegalith]

He is also explicitly not a straight line.

Um no.

what I remember of Qaf, is that the more enlightened you are, the higher you get on him, eventually reaching the peak and being completely enlightened.

the catch however, is that to get down you must somehow become less enlightened until you reach the base again.

I see not what part of these statements precludes his fetich from humming along as he watches sped up footage of the futile wanderings of those trying to climb his overself from a dark cavern full of surveillance monitors at the heart of the mountain.

[Exthalion]

I see not what part of these statements precludes his fetich from humming along as he watches sped up footage of the futile wanderings of those trying to climb his overself from a dark cavern full of surveillance monitors at the heart of the mountain.

I was agreeing with you.

[Dragnar]

The set of natural numbers is the same size as the set of natural odd numbers. This is despite the fact that the natural number contains the set of natural odd numbers. Math is indeed weird at time.

As for how Malfeas can have a top and a bottom but still be infinite: Easy, you just need another dimension. Ceycelyne is infinite and yet Creation and Malfeas are on opposite sides of her. As an easy illustration, malfeas is a 4d version of a cylinder with finite height and infinite radius.

Malfeas is never stated to be infinite, as far as I know. He's big, sure. But not infinite. Yes, yes, there are ways for him to be, while still fitting everything we know about him. But there's no reason to assume extra-dimensional geometry unless he is, somewhere, stated to be infinite in the first place.

(And as for the math: Yes, those sets are the same. The set of rational numbers is however larger than the set of integers. Just as an example.)

Edit: And as for Qaf, it is indeed accurate that the only way to ascend him is to become more enlightened. Unfortunately, there is no upper limit to enlightenment, and so he has no peak.

[Exthalion]

Malfeas is never stated to be infinite, as far as I know. He's big, sure. But not infinite. Yes, yes, there are ways for him to be, while still fitting everything we know about him. But there's no reason to assume extra-dimensional geometry unless he is, somewhere, stated to be infinite in the first place.

(And as for the math: Yes, those sets are the same. The set of rational numbers is however larger than the set of integers. Just as an example.)

Edit: And as for Qaf, it is indeed accurate that the only way to ascend him is to become more enlightened. Unfortunately, there is no upper limit to enlightenment, and so he has no peak.

Presumably you turn into Dharma at some point because Nirvishesha gets confused. Something like lim (xp->inf) E(xp) = Dharma where E(xp) is the function of your enlightenment as it relates to your total xp.