General Exalted Discussion XII: One More and Get a Free Deathlord

[Amechra]

Actually, to echo what someone said a bit earlier, what about breaking the Geas on as many Jadeborn as possible; they'll probably help.

Also, what about Akuma-tizing some of the attacking force? Hell, if Autocobbles really wants to, he could probably Exalt about half of his army (he built the damn things, and this is a lesser threat, so seriously, something to knock the entire army up to at least Terrestrial level should be within his grasp.)

That would definitely increase the average essence level to above 2, right?

Remember, they are being backed by a non-crippled Primordial.

And who is it again that gods can't resist the orders of?

I can see it now; the Incarnae come out ready to fight, and Autocthon just orders them to go back and keep playing the Game of Divinities.

[Maugan Ra]

Also, do remember that just because the majority of Gods in Yu-Shan are civilians, this does not in any way detract from the fact that they are, well, gods. Gods of every conceivable domain and power set, many of whom will not be pleased to see a Primordial invasion of their city. The fact that the Chosen of Battles specifically have charms designed to make them militarily dangerous doesn't mean they can't screw over an invader's abilities.

Purely as an example... Nara-O knows anything that is otherwise known by a single individual, and most of his staff have related domains. Best of luck keeping offensive strategies or your weak points hidden. Likewise, there are Gods of Hunting, Luck, Death... even the Goddess of Paperwork and Bureaucracy (and if you think she's not a threat, say good bye to your logistical ability). Then there's Amoth City-Smiter, whose abilities are basically perfectly tailored to the act of wrecking any powerful Alchemical metropoli.

One does not invade Yu-Shan, and in so doing give them a nice, large enemy to unite against. You want something done in Heaven, you do it covertly, and you do it fast before getting the hell out. Or you die.

[Maugan Ra]

Remember, they are being backed by a non-crippled Primordial.

And who is it again that gods can't resist the orders of?

I can see it now; the Incarnae come out ready to fight, and Autocthon just orders them to go back and keep playing the Game of Divinities.

That said, this might be a valid strategy. Maybe, anyway. Of course, then Luna just casually taps her green-haired friend on the shoulder and tells her that Autocthon is here and breaking everything, and would Gaia terribly mind helping out before everyone gets enslaved again?

Beyond that, it really depends. What are the Autocthonians after here, exactly?

[Exthalion]

Jadeborn will help, yes. They will not change the fact that they are still outnumbered more than a hundred to one even with the entire Jadeborn Race as part of this army.

Exaltation is never something easy. He couldn't replicate any of the other Exaltation types because it required the direct participation of the appropriate being. As for akumatizing the army: Terribly unlikely. Along with the magic would come the sickness. Autochthon didn't release his charms or his sorcerous initiation to the Alchemicals, I doubt mortals would be important enough to risk new infection vectors.

Yes, it would raise it to 2.3. The gods are still going to be higher. 2 is the absolute minimum which would only happen if every god in their army was E2. This is most assuredly not the case.

As for non-crippled: HAH! He is on the verge of death, neutered, and half lobotomized.

The Geas doesn't work like that. It prevents gods from attacking Primordials or their Deva. The Endless Desert has a charm that forces gods to do their job. Given what the Incarne's jobs actually are this would be a terrible idea if Autochthon has a version of it, since it would require them to get off their butts and start kicking the army's rear. Theon could apparently order the Sun to go at his peers, but Autochthon will most certainly not have this ability.

More to the point, if Autochthon is never going to take the field to be able to use those sorts of abilities. The Sidereals can finish killing him all the way. Sol can call up Yozi to beat on him like they used to. He has a soul dedicated to Fear. His Primordial privileged is not going to come up.

There is also Gaia who keeps a Joten around.

[omegalith]

Actually, to echo what someone said a bit earlier, what about breaking the Geas on as many Jadeborn as possible; they'll probably help.

Also, what about Akuma-tizing some of the attacking force? Hell, if Autocobbles really wants to, he could probably Exalt about half of his army (he built the damn things, and this is a lesser threat, so seriously, something to knock the entire army up to at least Terrestrial level should be within his grasp.)

Heck, the Alchemicals are basically just blank Exaltations that express many of his themes because he designed the concept in the first place: If he wanted to, he could probably make a new caste boosted up to Infernal levels with stuff like "Titan-Machine Protocols" and access to his personal charm list. Or hijack captured ones from other groups.

[Exthalion]

Heck, the Alchemicals are basically just blank Exaltations that express many of his themes because he designed the concept in the first place: If he wanted to, he could probably make a new caste boosted up to Infernal levels with stuff like "Titan-Machine Protocols" and access to his personal charm list. Or hijack captured ones from other groups.

No, he couldn't. If he could have, he would have done so at one of the far more opportune moments in the past. He has specifically not given his chosen his sorcery or his charms. Primordials themes are too vast to be contained in a single shard like that which is why there are DB and alchemicals. They couldn't make Gaian or Autochthonian celestials. Infernals work because they are a Solar shards at base and thus able to manage that kind of power.

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Well, being that Autochthon is not one of the Celestial Incarna, he couldn't infuse something with the power of the Celestial Incarna. He needed the Incarna to imbue the shards, or Exaltations if you like that term better, with their power. No, he could not do it alone. He invented the vessel and the process, but that is absolutely meaningless without the proper origin of power. Now, if a primordial had the same nature of gods, then there's no reason why they couldn't, or wouldn't have made up more Celestial Exalted from Autocthon and Gaia then and there. You could argue that it was a political thing and they didn't want to deal all-in, but it wasn't— Gaia and Autochthon dealt all-in with the Dragon-Blooded and the Alchemicals.
Plainly they cannot take their essence and use it to fuel aspected mortal champions. They're not gods. Their nature differs too greatly for the process to contain it. And the vastly different design on the Dragon-Blooded and Alchemicals, and the blatant lack of any other relative Celestial Exalted proves it.
Furthermore, if he could employ more Solar Exalted, or create something equal to them, he would have. If he had more Solar Exaltations in queue, he would have used them. They were his best design. That is the fundamental premise of Exalted. You posit that there was some logical reason why he could bang out more Celestials but didn't because in his wisdom Alchemicals are fundamentally a better choice, but it isn't so. He just couldn't make more Solars. Clearly, he does not have more, and cannot make more without the Unconquered Sun. But does he even need them? The Alchemicals go right up into that range of power and he can influence control on their production.

What I wonder is what this little boondoggle is meant to accomplish. If there is some super secret thing that could save him from death he could probably just ask. Anything less than that doesn't seem worth pissing off this many important and powerful people.

[Dragnar]

Assume that Yu-Shan has the population density of the comfortable suburb of Perth. 15,000 people per square kilometer.

Yu-Shan is the size of North America and entirely covered with city. North America has a land area of 24,230,000 square kilometers. By basic multiplication that gives Yu-Shan a population of 363,450,000,000.

I'm not going to get involved in this silly argument for the most part, but this at least I can comment on: Your population density is off by at LEAST an order of magnitude. Maybe 2. Your generic low-wage worker in Yu Shan has a home any Dynast would call a mansion. Sidereals can easily get palaces, with grounds the size of a small town. And so on. Yu Shan, the heavenly city, is described as having standards of living so far above anything seen since the first age it isn't even funny. This isn't the population density of modern suburbs, not by a long shot.

...Also the size of Yu shan is probably just another instance of the writers of early exalted stuff having no sense of scale whatsoever. But that's a whole other issue.

[omegalith]

No, he couldn't. If he could have, he would have done so at one of the far more opportune moments in the past. He has specifically not given his chosen his sorcery or his charms. Primordials themes are too vast to be contained in a single shard like that which is why there are DB and alchemicals. They couldn't make Gaian or Autochthonian celestials.

Whilst he couldn't specifically make a Solar exaltation, I highly doubt he'd ever want to given how that turned out the first time.

A lot of what he did after forming the Seal was what he considered (wrongly) was the to be what was all he needed to to be able to safely hibernate. Assuming his souls wouldn't sabotage each other or squabble just because they couldn't directly harm each other. Only setting the Adamants up as a backup plan rather than putting them in place to begin with. Failing to realize just how subversive his cancer would get in the absence of a central monitoring intelligence.

Infernals work because they are a Solar shards at base and thus able to manage that kind of power.

Primordials are pretty clearly more powerful than Sol. He's basically a minmaxed fetich soul, purely in terms of equivalent power.

[Exthalion]

I'm not going to get involved in this silly argument for the most part, but this at least I can comment on: Your population density is off by at LEAST an order of magnitude. Maybe 2. Your generic low-wage worker in Yu Shan has a home any Dynast would call a mansion. Sidereals can easily get palaces, with grounds the size of a small town. And so on. Yu Shan, the heavenly city, is described as having standards of living so far above anything seen since the first age it isn't even funny. This isn't the population density of modern suburbs, not by a long shot.

...Also the size of Yu shan is probably just another instance of the writers of early exalted stuff having no sense of scale whatsoever. But that's a whole other issue.

There are also gods who live in their offices. Also, all these important gods have servants who can't all have palaces. There are also the out of work gods who apparently have gangs.

Add in that everyone having their own palace doesn't actually make sense. Most of a palace consist of rooms the owner doesn't use. What are Sidereals going to do with thirty bathrooms when they are the only ones who use them? Why would they need spare bedrooms for a thousand people + servants.

Yu-Shan can have a huge standard of living compared to Creation simply by being more like modern day earth.

Whilst he couldn't specifically make a Solar exaltation, I highly doubt he'd ever want to given how that turned out the first time.

A lot of what he did after forming the Seal was what he considered (wrongly) was the to be what was all he needed to to be able to safely hibernate. Assuming his souls wouldn't sabotage each other or squabble just because they couldn't directly harm each other. Only setting the Adamants up as a backup plan rather than putting them in place to begin with. Failing to realize just how subversive his cancer would get in the absence of a central monitoring intelligence.

Primordials are pretty clearly more powerful than Sol. He's basically a minmaxed fetich soul, purely in terms of equivalent power.

It wasn't that he couldn't make Solar exaltations (though he couldn't) it was that he couldn't make Solar tier exaltations. Primordials are too metaphysically vast to condense there themes into a single exaltation capable of reflecting them. The problem is that they are too powerful and unfocused to do the job.

Thus Autochthon could not just whip up some Solar Tier exalts just so that his ill conceived doom army will be more impressive. He is starving, dying, and out of resources. Even if it were possible, which the writers have stated it isn't for him alone, he doesn't have the resources to do so at this time.

[omegalith]

Kinda skipped over making my own main point there:

The Alchemicals serve exactly the role Autocthon designed them to: Servants of society and stability. In part, this is due to their reliance on vats and artisans... But equally important is the overall infrastructure of checks and balances that mean a rogue Exalt is taken down before the point where a thousand petty Empires arise. Particularly that their memories are prescreened to construct a suitable individual meaning that when a flawed example arises, plenty of loyalists are there to deal with the issue.

Obviously Gremlin Syndrome has caused an unanticipated glitch with the hordes of tainted underlings and charm for basically growing new charms as tumors... But as a closed system with controlled parameters it was working pretty well.

If he made full-blown Solar level Exalts? That largely safe socialist quasi-utopia probably wouldn't happen. Heck, they might even try to kill, usurp or distort him to better advance their own agendas.

Going to war instead of inviting them into his own body and taking a five thousand year nap? Totally different scenario.

[omegalith]

It wasn't that he couldn't make Solar exaltations (though he couldn't) it was that he couldn't make Solar tier exaltations. Primordials are too metaphysically vast to condense there themes into a single exaltation capable of reflecting them. The problem is that they are too powerful and unfocused to do the job.

Except they did: They actually wikipediafied a bunch of preexisting ones with unrelated Essence profiles... And Infernals aren't even limited to expressing the themes of only one Yozi at a time.

Thus Autochthon could not just whip up some Solar Tier exalts just so that his ill conceived doom army will be more impressive. He is starving, dying, and out of resources. Even if it were possible, which the writers have stated it isn't for him alone, he doesn't have the resources to do so at this time.

If he's awake, he's already doing better than he was in the Manual... And I highly doubt he'd try a frontal assault of Creation without working to at least put his symptoms closer to remission first.

[Exthalion]

Kinda skipped over making my own main point there:

The Alchemicals serve exactly the role Autocthon designed them to: Servants of society and stability. In part, this is due to their reliance on vats and artisans... But equally important is the overall infrastructure of checks and balances that mean a rogue Exalt is taken down before the point where a thousand petty Empires arise. Particularly that their memories are prescreened to construct a suitable individual meaning that when a flawed example arises, plenty of loyalists are there to deal with the issue.

Obviously Gremlin Syndrome has caused an unanticipated glitch with the hordes of tainted underlings and charm for basically growing new charms as tumors... But as a closed system with controlled parameters it was working pretty well.

If he made full-blown Solar level Exalts? That largely safe socialist quasi-utopia probably wouldn't happen. Heck, they might even try to kill, usurp or distort him to better advance their own agendas.

Going to war instead of inviting them into his own body and taking a five thousand year nap? Totally different scenario.

Except their design predates his hibernation. Why didn't he field Exalted in the Primordial War if he could produce them? It was apparently a near thing, more Solar Tier Exalted would have helped considerably. It wasn't like he wasn't already making something capable of killing him.

[Amechra]

Can someone remind me of what terms Ottocobbles and the Yozi are on?

Because if they are on decent terms, (or, hell, if Autocthon can get them a small measure of "out"... what do the surrender oaths prevent the Yozi from doing exactly?), he'd have Akuma of other Primordials to help, at the very least.

However, if my memory is correct, this is a no-go.

Still, how much do the other Primordials know about him helping the other side?

[omegalith]

Except their design predates his hibernation. Why didn't he field Exalted in the Primordial War if he could produce them? It was apparently a near thing, more Solar Tier Exalted would have helped considerably. It wasn't like he wasn't already making something capable of killing him.

For one thing, he apparently didn't make them initially because he figured manufacturing his prototype designs early might tip off the other Primordials to what was happening... And later he and Gaia were both horrified that the Exalts were going so far as to actually kill their brethren, something they hadn't even realized was a possibility.

[Exthalion]

Except they did: They actually wikipediafied a bunch of preexisting ones with unrelated Essence profiles... And Infernals aren't even limited to expressing the themes of only one Yozi at a time.

Except they are still Solar shards and could be cleansed of it. If Autobot could produce his own Solar tier shards, why didn't he just field his own army? They would have been far more loyal.

If he's awake, he's already doing better than he was in the Manual... And I highly doubt he'd try a frontal assault of Creation without working to at least put his symptoms closer to remission first.

the reason that the eight nations are actually cooperating on this is that the Maker is waking up and calling the shots

He isn't all the way up yet.

Can someone remind me of what terms Ottocobbles and the Yozi are on?

Because if they are on decent terms, (or, hell, if Autocthon can get them a small measure of "out"... what do the surrender oaths prevent the Yozi from doing exactly?), he'd have Akuma of other Primordials to help, at the very least.

However, if my memory is correct, this is a no-go.

Still, how much do the other Primordials know about him helping the other side?

He is still afraid of them, they are deathly afraid of his disease getting into their soul hierarchies. They are also still contemptuous of him.

[omegalith]

Can someone remind me of what terms Ottocobbles and the Yozi are on?

Auto's opinion: "Those jerks broke my stuff and humiliated me... And now they're crazier and angrier. Though I kinda feel guilty and pity them, it's probably best to leave well enough alone."

General Yozi opinion: "TRAITOR! KILL! SMASH!"

Adorjan's opinion: <Hey everyone, runty's back! Let me out runty, I wanna play with you and teach you about the magic of loss!>

they are deathly afraid of his disease getting into their soul hierarchies.

Also this.

[Amechra]

Actually, if he wants everyone dead, letting Adorjan out would do his job for him...

Because Primordials can't attack each-other...

[Exthalion]

Actually, if he wants everyone dead, letting Adorjan out would do his job for him...

Because Primordials can't attack each-other...

Which is what the Sun was for. The Sun could attack them. It would at worst be Fetich death, but that isn't exactly pleasant.

[aetherialDawn]

Primordials can attack each other, they just generally don't bother to, and none of them have ever fought to the death before. Isidoros slams the layers of Malfeas around as he pleases, and neither of them particularly care, because the damage is negligible. However, Isidoros is not also unleashing his Apocalypse Shintai stuff on Malfeas; THAT would be cause for actual war, perhaps.

The Primordial Geas prevents gods from directly attacking Primordials. Malfeas can lift it on Sol on a temporary basis (but fighting back refreshes the duration...)

The Unconquered Sun has no particular power to attack Primordials, except as Malfeas allows him to. If anything, should the Yozis find out about this, Malfeas might negotiate lifting the ban so that the UCS can attack Autochthon directly. But probably not.

Also, Yu-Shan is the size of a continent, as was already stated. It is completely covered in city. Sure, the apartments are lavish and often multi-room - but it is near-entirely covered in living space, and there are still more gods than there are homes.

All I can say is that your best hope is to probably use magitech armaments and your tiny army to mount an assault that appears temporarily threatening and draws attention... Then have a smaller group of Alchemicals do whatever you wanted to actually do. But honestly, five thousand men are likely to draw the attention of a small fragment of Yu-Shan's continental whole - not enough to make a real difference anyway. Don't send them to a pointless death.

[Exthalion]

Technically Sol can use his Titan-Unleashing Clarion to call up Malfeas to give him permission to beat Autobot into the ground.

[omegalith]

Technically Sol can use his Titan-Unleashing Clarion to call up Malfeas to give him permission to beat Autobot into the ground.

Sol: "Well? Do I have permission?"

Malfeas: "ONE MOMENT. I AM DECIDING WHICH ONE OF YOU I HATE MORE."

[Exthalion]

Get as in order.

[Lix Lorn]

Sol: "Well? Do I have permission?"

Malfeas: "ONE MOMENT. I AM DECIDING WHICH ONE OF YOU I HATE MORE."

Lol, nicely put.

[Lord Raziere]

To which Autocthon replies:
Sol was the one who started it. It was his idea to rebel all along. The Solar Exalted could not have been possibly made without him. Therefore, he is also the reason you lost. Because if I had created the Exalted without the Solars, you would have probably won. Therefore, Sol is the entire reason you are Malfeas.
I HATE SOL MORE. PERMISSION NOT GRANTED!
Sol: Oh fu-
*Autocthon kills or defeats Sol*

[Qwertystop]

Wait, so Sol has a Charm to call Malfeas, who has a Charm to tell Sol he can hurt Titans?

Only thing that would be worse is if Malfeas's oaths meant he'd have to obey Sol, so Sol ordered Malfeas to order Sol to kill Autocthon.

[Exthalion]

Wait, so Sol has a Charm to call Malfeas, who has a Charm to tell Sol he can hurt Titans?

Only thing that would be worse is if Malfeas's oaths meant he'd have to obey Sol, so Sol ordered Malfeas to order Sol to kill Autocthon.

He can do that. The charm lets Sol call up any primordial Joten and command them as though they were bound by sorcery. So for the low, low price of 1m Sol can command Malfeas to order him to kill Autochthon.

As for it all being Sol's fault: Without Autochthon they couldn't have made Exalted in the first place. Without Autobot Sol will still be driving the sun around being unhappy.

[Rikandur Azebol]

Yeah, but Autobot just made stuff. Malfeas still think of him as his geeky lunch deliverer. Sol had more father/son relation with Theion.

And ... that whole Clarion thingy, PD helps Yozi a lot in that regard. Clarion is more shaky than actual sorcerous binding, and nothing stops Malfeas from sending 1-circle in his stead. Or Adjorian.

[Exthalion]

Yeah, but Autobot just made stuff. Malfeas still think of him as his geeky lunch deliverer. Sol had more father/son relation with Theion.

And ... that whole Clarion thingy, PD helps Yozi a lot in that regard. Clarion is more shaky than actual sorcerous binding, and nothing stops Malfeas from sending 1-circle in his stead. Or Adjorian.

Except it calls out joten as being the thing called so Malfeas can't just throw in a first circle. In the same way that Ligier can't just send a blood ape when you use demon of the third circle. Yozi don't get the send a minion exemption that elementals do. This is why you can summon eany elemental with a Terrestrial Circle spell though, upto the Kukla and Gardulus.

[Amechra]

What makes you think Malfeas has the ability to give Sol exemption to the Primordial Geas?

Remember, Malfeas is a vastly diminished version of Theion; he might just not have the ability anymore.

So, yeah, go with it! Take that chance.

/Steve Dragon

[omegalith]

The thing about Sol's Titan-Summoning power is that he's explicitly only allowed to assign tasks whilst leaving the specifics of how the task is accomplished up to the Yozi... Which is why he has never once used it.

So if he called Malfeas up and told him to "Fetch me a bagel", there's not really anything keeping big green from forging four million gods into a vast Starmetal oven in which to bake a palace-sized bagel with flour formed from the ground bones of somehow still living mortals.

"I DID NOT THINK YOU WOULD WANT A BAGEL LESS MAGNIFICENT IN SCOPE THAN THE ONE I HAVE PROVIDED. IS THERE A PROBLEM WITH IT? I COULD MAKE A LARGER ONE IF IT IS IN ANY WAY UNSATISFACTORY."