LGBTAitP #28: Come Taste the Rainbow!

[Lentrax]

Initially read that as "secret massage club". Took me a second to sort that one out.

Well we have one of those as well, but you have to be invited to learn the secret knock.

[Unbeknownst]

Well we have one of those as well, but you have to be invited to learn the secret knock.

Does it involve rubbing the wood of the door?

[Socratov]

Pish, mine goes off at work all the time, and it is usually at a hilariously inappropriate moment.....which just makes it all the funnier!

Oh, I love my kilt and now that it has cooled down here, I think I will be wearing it all the more often. It is all wool, so wearing it in summer here in Texas, not so much fun

And the freedom for certain parts outweighs the feeling of exposure for me. Of course, I have never really had a problem with....*ahem*.....exposure

~Matthew~

FREEDOM! FOR WOBBLY BITS!

Well, I own a kilt and go to Ren Faires....I'll let you do the math

Also, in college, my apts had a pool and were in walking range of the bars....so in the summer we tended to go back to the pool and cool off after the bars closed. And most of us tended not to wear swimsuits to the bars.....so ya know, what else were we going to do?

~Matthew~

damn, now I want to go get a kilt without any special occasion to wear it...

I actually feel less comfortable "commando" than I do in boxers. And briefs are the worst option.

yes, only when playing some (field) hockey I like to go commando, just becuase the added freedom and the absence of textile in a certain crevasse

Well we have one of those as well, but you have to be invited to learn the secret knock.

Does it involve rubbing the wood of the door?

*giggles like a teenager*

Ofcourse it is not a secret knock, it is a secret handshake/tickle

[Unbeknownst]

FREEDOM!

yes, only when playing some (field) hockey I like to go commando, just becuase the added freedom and the absence of textile in a certain crevasse

I hate all underwear so much. BURN IT!

[Mina Kobold]

I think I'm now really part of the 'Q'. Q like Questioning.

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I have really no idea what my gender identity is. It is so confusing, especially the last few days. I don't feel completely neutral-unfeminine, but also not entirely female. One moment, I'm unhappy when I look into the mirror and see my female body, the next moment I don't care at all, and then again I'm happy to be a girl. But most of the time it is just really confusing.
The mental image I have of myself is constantly changing. Actually, it's more than one image. I have two or three "main images" and some other that only pop up from time to time. Most of these are clearly female, but one of the main images is one of the genderless elves from my stories...
I have no idea, who I am, what I am, and what I want. I find myself making stupid "that's so typically male, women are far superior"-jokes when I'm talking with my father, and then I'm angry at myself, because how can I make these jokes if I'm not a woman (or don't want to be one?). Then I think that maybe I'm just making all that stuff up and I'm completely 'normal', I think that if I hadn't started reading this thread (oh, and writing my stories) that I would never have thought about being anything else than cis, just because I didn't know that there was something else. But then I wouldn't sometimes see the need to dress as androgynous as possible and wouldn't feel uncomfortable in tight clothes. I wouldn't have been so rediciolously happy when my mother called me her "androgynous elf". Meh. I'm confused.

*Hugs*

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That sounds terribly confusing, but I hope it will clear up soon.

You may never have thought of yourself as anything but cis, but you might still not have fit in the mould. I certainly would be much more confused without the knowledge gained here. But I may just be weird that way. ^_^'

I cannot say anything with expertise, but I think one could make jokes like that without being a woman. I do not think you are doing them to overcompensate for the doubt, though I think that happens sometimes, but maybe it is just habit? Growing up with an assigned gender can leave some strange reflexory acts even if you completely throw off that gender or the binary entirely. It could also be that you are fluid and fit the Female label when you say so, but the Androgynous label when you are happy to be called so. You could also be both, and you are happy that a normally ignored part of you is recognised. Or you could be female entirely, and just confused. In the end, you are the only one who can know.

I hope some of that was helpful, I am terrible at cheering anyone up. ^_^'

But miniskirts are fun, they feel delicious

Delicious? ^w^

*Tries to eat Helio's skirt*

PS: Since everybody is grading themselves on the scales, I might as well. ^___^

I think I am luckily very rarely above a 1 on the pain scale, with a few very not-fun instances of a 6 or 7. Owies. >_<

On the dysphoria scale, I think I am normally between 1 and 2, but I have been at 4. I think, I am still doubting myself so much. Confusing. ;_;

My inner tention is a bit similar, but that may just be my inability to handle stress. Eep!

[golentan]

So, I stumbled upon something a (very) brief while ago on facebook. Apparently San Francisco is going to start paying for citizens to get gender reassignment surgery in addition to hormones and support.

Discuss.

[SiuiS]

Point of order. *We have no way of knowing or gauging the gender of fetal humans or if they even have such a thing.

Also, you're making the same mistake of conflating sex and gender as you were decrying earlier.

Well played, friend. Well played~

The point was to sort of shock him into thinking further bak than his start point. It quickly becomes very easy to see that it's a complicated morass.

Thank you though. I didn't even notice the slip on my part. Plank in thine eye before the speck in your neighbors. I will try to do better in the future.

Ugh.

Wait.

The forum's supposed to delete double-spacing.

I'm not sure if Phee operates from an iPhone or not, but I suspect the system uses a separate symbol for a double space in the note pad.

You wouldn't be constantly cold if you had no way of sensing temperature. You'd be constantly lacking any sense of what temperature it was. Cold is not the same thing as 'unwarm'.

This is possibly true. But if dysphoria can present itself from something as "simple" as having the wrong gonads, how would the body react to having to adjust to entirely differently calibrated proprioceptive and pressure input systems? Different balance points, weight, kinetic feedback.

Also, you seem to be assuming that at a time when we can safely put ourselves into robot bodies, the most advanced technology we have for tactile sensations will be what we currently have. Which, really, makes no sense.

On the contrary, one has to develop the technology an put it into practice before perfecting it. I assume we have the tech in this case to map a human being into a synthetic body. I also assume that this technology has not been perfected on people who already have issues with body/mind disconnect, let alone the average joe. Perfect? No. And if it's not perfect, there are problems. Often unforeseen ones, and many issues along these lines range into the "I didn't say anything because I thought it was just me/thought it was normal/didn't want to make a fuss." someone could be okay in their robot body, unwilling to admit to discomfort for a long time, despite scientists asking probing questions. And after ten years, fifteen, of a sensation you don't like not going away, not abating, not diminishing, I'm sure it would be too late to help these people with tech improvements.

I think you and I were talking about genetic algorithms at the time, which is similar to what Saskia is referring to, if I've read the post correctly. Although the nuts and bolts of those algorithms are out of my field, I would agree with her that the case of a computer-designed computer isn't necessarily a herald of AI. Primarily, that's because the fitness criteria and the weighting schemes are still determined by the programmers, so you do have to have some idea of what you're looking for beforehand. In that regard, "sentience" is too vague to make a successful search for, but something like "improved processing power for a given transistor density" might be getting into the realm of feasibility.

aye, but I think we specifically segued into generc algorithms after the AI discussion.

This analogy actually offers some helpful perspective for an outsider. Thank you.

Of course the one thing I think might be taken wrong is the one thing that works

Heh. I used to run myself ragged looking for non-existent footnotes in the Ponythread before we figured out what was going on with that...

>_< sorry

Further, testosterone does not cause mutations.

Colloquially, mutation is used to mean a transformation. Looking at the definition, you're right that it is specifically genetic. The pitfalls of talking to scientific minded folk. At the point where tertiary jargon needs to be clarified, I handwave. Otherwise, we get into hours-long arguments which hinge on mismatched understanding of words like "infinite" or "temperature".

Well, yes, but once you invoke the terrible power of the point of order, it just keeps going.

Wait, point of order is a thing? I was just being a tongue-in-cheek smart'orse.

Not quite sure how to define it. *I mean, just on the face of it, when, just as an example, a woman explains to me that while she may on the outside look like a woman, everything inside is telling her that she (he) is a man. *I mean, that just seems to me that gender isn't completely based on what out physical parts turned out to be, but also that there is a make-up of the brain

That's why it's dodgy. The brain is part of the body. The mind isn't, but it's an effect of the brain so it could still be considered a body 'part'. Is gender a physical schematic in the structure of the brain? Can you rearrange it, damage it? Or is it purely mental, a permanent signal-thingy, simply housed in the brain?

If the brain physically says Gender X and the body doesn't comply, is it a body mid split or is it like having a left pinky finger longer than the right?

I guess I should have said "birth gender." *I know we all technically start female, but my point was not what we start as in the womb, but what we come into this world as when we start to breath air for the first time.

Intentional use of antogonistic dialectic on my part. Original gender is loaded language, implying birth sex is correct. That all.

So there is no mental aspect to it at all? *What I mean by that is, is it not that your body doesn't like your body, but your mind sees what you body is but to it should be something else. *And, really, I don't mean to try and tell you how you are feeling or anything so please do not take this as me preaching to you at all, I am just trying to understand

Loaded language again, mate

Well, first things first; I can only speak for me. I'm also interested in holistic pursuits, and have always had greater body awareness (or purportedly greater) than my fellows. Sensations for me are easy to pinpoint, difficult to convey. Usually.

Mental? I don't know. It's a disconnect, but it's a disconnect between what I feel and what I think. That is both mental and physical. Like when you're arm is asleep and you touch it, and the sensation you feel isn't what your brain knows it should? That sort of disconnect.

Argh and new people so now I'm gunshy with the examples. XD

(This next bit is me working on this out loud for feedback, just kinda a Hypothesis type thing) Your body is what your body is.....it doesn't necessarily feel any different to itself, does it? *I mean, if your brain wasn't in your body, would it still feel like that? *Example; I am a man, but I believe I should be a woman. *My body is male, but my mind and heart & soul tell me I should be female. *Now, if all the things "inside" were taken out (mind, heart and soul) would my body still feel awkward in itself? *Or is the fact that I know I should be a woman something that is wired differently in my brain?

Depending on your understanding of mind, and soul, "your" body would be a separate entity now. If you're in to video games, your body would be a Nobody, while your heart would be elsewhere.

I think it gets too far into metaphysics at this point to really go on with.

So, I stumbled upon something a (very) brief while ago on facebook. Apparently San Francisco is going to start paying for citizens to get gender reassignment surgery in addition to hormones and support.

Discuss.

... If I'm an hour's commute away, is that too far to count as a citizen?

EDIT: nuts, CD&D, you use double spaces too? XD

[Unbeknownst]

Mental? I don't know. It's a disconnect, but it's a disconnect between what I feel and what I think. That is both mental and physical. Like when you're arm is asleep and you touch it, and the sensation you feel isn't what your brain knows it should? That sort of disconnect.

Argh and new people so now I'm gunshy with the examples. XD

Oh, don't be shy, *edges closer* I'm all about sensations.

This is way too easy.

[Socratov]

I hate all underwear so much. BURN IT!

Ehm... I wouldn't go that far, I mean, you sacrifice a bit of comfort to eliminate a greager discomfort, so when you're not squatting half the time underwear is actually nice to have.

Also, why am I not entiteld to my white text? Now it seems like I never wrote it in the first place... :<

[Unbeknownst]

Ehm... I wouldn't go that far, I mean, you sacrifice a bit of comfort to eliminate a greager discomfort, so when you're not squatting half the time underwear is actually nice to have.

Also, why am I not entiteld to my white text? Now it seems like I never wrote it in the first place... :<

What comfort? I'm sacrificing uncomfortable underwear to be more comfortable.

There's no negative there.

And there: Happy now?

[Lea Plath]

Pain scale, mmmm, I think most of the time I'm at a 3 at the moment, but that is only till the surgery next week. Then it should shoot up to a 10 based on past experience and then down to a 1 in the weeks following.

Also *steals Lixie's bed and wheels it into the spotlight for everyone to bask in the Lixie*

And finally, I dunno why, probably because I've just broken my diet and stuffed my face but I really really wish I could be a shapeshifter. Then I wouldn't have to look like this!

[Lady Serpentine]

You're having surgery? Did I miss something?

And I thought you wanted to be a shapeshifter all the time? Though I suppose you could just be referring to the intensity at the moment...

Anyway, have some *hugs*, if you are desirous of such things. It seems like you could probably use them.

(*Gently pokes the newly-revealed Lixie to Triangulation*)

[Socratov]

What comfort? I'm sacrificing uncomfortable underwear to be more comfortable.

There's no negative there.

And there: Happy now?

so, you've never worn shorts during a hailstorm without any underwear on? or coarse shorts in particular? Wow I envy you

[SiuiS]

Serps, they're all what's called anchored Likert scales. So it's natural that they would seem similar.

I shouldn't have called it a scale, it's an Item on a scale. A scale can be comprised of several items (for instance, ten for the MADRS which is a depression rating scale).

I would call those spikes dysphoric crises and I'd like an Item for them as well.

I mean interferes with your life in some significant way - there would be other Items for things like Inner Tension and Thoughts about Self-Mutilation. Here's the Item Inner Tension, to give you a feeling of what a fully developed Item looks like.

How would awareness of increased tolerance work? If I am at a 7, an learn self control enough to tolerate it but the intensity doesn't diminish, is it later still a 7 or now should I list it as a 4-5?

I see. I see.

So if you could, are you saying you would be one to run around with a claymore, yelling out, "You cannae take my freedom!"

I've actually done that. Recreation is fun, unless they do the choreography wrong and leave your body in the blast cone of the powder cannon.

Then its fun, loud and burn-y.

I can't agree with this more. I HATE briefs, but I too don't like going commando....in pants anyway. My kilt, all kinds of hell yes to commando, but not in jeans......too much uncomfortable rubbing of jeans on skin However in my linen shorts.....those are nice and soft, so no big deal there.

~Matthew~

Oh, you're one of them XD
Been kilt checked often? You know the proper response to "What's under the kilt", right?

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CHOOSE YOUR OWN ADVENTURE

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"Bite marks."

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"Lipstick and shame."

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"My boxers."

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"A red ribbon. That jerk from the song got the blue!"

Well we have one of those as well, but you have to be invited to learn the secret knock.

D=

Why was I not informed? Is it ecause I'm not secretive about massage?

Oh, don't be shy, *edges closer* I'm all about sensations.

This is way too easy.

I believe the proper response is to text CD&D.

[Lea Plath]

You're having surgery? Did I miss something?

And I thought you wanted to be a shapeshifter all the time? Though I suppose you could just be referring to the intensity at the moment...

Anyway, have some *hugs*, if you are desirous of such things. It seems like you could probably use them.

Just having my toenail done, as it hasn't healed in the past 2 years.

And yeah, really intense at the moment. I guess it for the painless weight loss but still.

And thanks *hugs back*

[Lentrax]

Why was I not informed? Is it ecause I'm not secretive about massage?

It's more of a 'I just made it up myself.'

[Lady Serpentine]

Just having my toenail done, as it hasn't healed in the past 2 years.

And yeah, really intense at the moment. I guess it for the painless weight loss but still.

And thanks *hugs back*

I think I may have missed something, then... What happened to it?

And you're welcome. *huggles* Aside from the toenail and the extra desire to be a shapeshifter, how have things been for you recently?

[Lea Plath]

I think I may have missed something, then... What happened to it?

And you're welcome. *huggles* Aside from the toenail and the extra desire to be a shapeshifter, how have things been for you recently?

It is an icky toe problem, not something I discuss a lot :P

And I'm not too bad, thanks.

[Coidzor]

Wait, point of order is a thing? I was just being a tongue-in-cheek smart'orse.

Smart Rosery is pretty much exactly what it's for. That and clarification, but, well, clarification with the angle of doing something witty or snarky with it for bonus style points. Never was really good at style points though.

It might be a debate class/club thing though, but I recall it was not an idiosyncracy unique to the one I went through in school at least.

[Lady Serpentine]

It is an icky toe problem, not something I discuss a lot :P

And I'm not too bad, thanks.

Fair enough.

And that's good. What do you think of the recent discussion of robot-bodies and such?

[SiuiS]

It's more of a 'I just made it up myself.'

You probably say that to all the nosy private sector inquiries!
*runs away sobbing*

Smart Rosery is pretty much exactly what it's for. That and clarification, but, well, clarification with the angle of doing something witty or snarky with it for bonus style points. Never was really good at style points though.

It might be a debate class/club thing though, but I recall it was not an idiosyncracy unique to the one I went through in school at least.

Oh, good. I am terrible at memos so if there was one, I was prepared for embarrassment.

[Lea Plath]

Fair enough.

And that's good. What do you think of the recent discussion of robot-bodies and such?

Wouldn't want to go full robot, but I'm intrested in the possibilites of bioware and cyberware in our bodies. The potential for everyone is intresting.

[Asta Kask]

I take it you work in psychology/psychiatry professionally then? I'm afraid that whole field is one I largely neglected in my own studies, but it is always interesting to hear about a discipline from the source.

I used to work in neuropsychiatry, and I hope to do so again. At the moment I am too sick to be able to hold down a job.

How would awareness of increased tolerance work? If I am at a 7, an learn self control enough to tolerate it but the intensity doesn't diminish, is it later still a 7 or now should I list it as a 4-5?

That depends on the Item. The pain scale asks about the intensity, so it wouldn't diminish. The Inner Tension scale seems ambiguous, which is bad. The difficulty is constructing Items that are unambiguous and yet flexible enough to actually represent the patients' differing experiences.

This is why, IMO, there should always be a line or two for commentary from the patients. For instance, if HRT does not reduce the intensity of gender dysphoria but makes it easier to tolerate, that's valuable information and we would want a way for the patients to report it.

[noparlpf]

So, I stumbled upon something a (very) brief while ago on facebook. Apparently San Francisco is going to start paying for citizens to get gender reassignment surgery in addition to hormones and support.

Discuss.

Seems like a nice plan at first glance. I don't know what their public health care is like normally, as that's about the furthest away from me one could get while staying in the continental US, but if they offer surgeries for physical issues, or treatment for any other neurological issues, then it makes sense to extend it to this.

It is an icky toe problem, not something I discuss a lot :P

And I'm not too bad, thanks.

Sounds awful. I had a mildly ingrown toenail once, and that was bad enough. Hope it's dealt with properly.
I actually fixed my ingrown toenail myself. My roommate was horrified that I was performing what amounted to a small surgery on myself without painkillers or proper tools. Then I taped it up, let it heal for a week, and amazingly, it worked, and it's never bothered me since. Could also help that I only wore shoes to lab for the next several months after that, which let it regrow properly for a while. Ingrown toenails are caused in part by compression from shoes.

[Lentrax]

You probably say that to all the nosy private sector inquiries!
*runs away sobbing*

No I'm not. Unless there is another secret massage parlor here I am unaware of.
Just remember the knock. Two hard knocks, three soft, and one at the top of the door. You didn't hear it from me.

[Irish Musician]

Thank you for all of your answers SiuiS, very informative.

Oh, you're one of them XD
Been kilt checked often? You know the proper response to "What's under the kilt", right?

Oh yes, I am one of them

CHOOSE YOUR OWN ADVENTURE

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"Bite marks."

Always

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"Lipstick and shame."

Shame? I Am not familiar with this term......

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"My boxers."

NEVER!!!!!!

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"A red ribbon. That jerk from the song got the blue!"

I actually know this entire song and sing it with my band quite often

~Matthew~

[Lentrax]

Thank you for all of your answers SiuiS, very informative.

Oh yes, I am one of them

Always

Shame? I Am not familiar with this term......

NEVER!!!!!!

I actually know this entire song and sing it with my band quite often

~Matthew~

Yep. You're definately one of them. Not that that is a bad thing... What was a saying?

[MageOfCakes]

Initially read that as "secret massage club". Took me a second to sort that one out.

That's a good idea we'll have to fit that into our meetings.

[noparlpf]

So today's intro neurobio lecture was amusing. It was on gender and love. We had a sub (the regular prof had some family stuff today; this guy'll be one of my profs next semester), and he literally didn't say anything I didn't know before. But I'm kind of the exception in a class like that because I do a fair bit of outside reading or at least skimming for fun. He briefly covered the SRY region, AIS (he didn't know about the relative prevalence of PAIS compared to full AIS, though, when I asked), and some experiments on rats determining sexual dimorphism and sexual behaviour. Then he went on to talk about love, citing the book I read over the summer because the author did some of her research here. It's funny; I was planning to ask him after class if he knew her, and just as I thought that he started talking about her. And after class when I went to chat with him he voiced my exact quibbles with said book and author. (Namely that the discussion of the structure and mechanism of the system was interesting, but that some of her inferences about evolution and psychology didn't make sense.)

[Lix Lorn]

Pain scale, mmmm, I think most of the time I'm at a 3 at the moment, but that is only till the surgery next week. Then it should shoot up to a 10 based on past experience and then down to a 1 in the weeks following.

And finally, I dunno why, probably because I've just broken my diet and stuffed my face but I really really wish I could be a shapeshifter. Then I wouldn't have to look like this!

(huggles)

Also *steals Lixie's bed and wheels it into the spotlight for everyone to bask in the Lixie*

(goes invisible)

(*Gently pokes the newly-revealed Lixie to Triangulation*)

Wait, is it my go?