LGBTAitP #28: Come Taste the Rainbow!

[The Succubus]

I couldn't get the James Bond theme out of my head the entire time I was reading it...

I had the Captain Scarlet theme but that's because I'm an old man.

[Saskia]

Aren't you making the assumption here that a trans woman will look like a cis guy?

Probably the idea there is that a transwoman who passes that well and completely will just scan as a ciswoman crossdressing if dressed as a man, otherwise it goes back to the argument made.

Pretty much this. It's perfectly acceptable in the realm of cosplay for a man to dress as a woman or a woman as a man, and there's no shaming or stigma associated with being "outed" as a man in a woman costume, where in general society an "outed" trans woman might for example face a brutal beating for using the "wrong" restroom at McDonald's. Even actual trans people who present as their gender rather than biological sex don't seem to face discrimination in the context of scifi/fantasy/vidya cons; even if they're "found out" nobody seems to think it's worth caring about, and I strongly suspect that the gender neutrality of cosplay itself has a lot to do with that.

I don't want to bring down the thread, but (warning, this will piss you off and upset you, you have been warned) this made me sick to my stomach, and I still have a complete lack of what to say. I am totally disgusted and appalled. This is the part of humanity that makes me sick. This will be law there by decemeber.......no words.

I have words, but most of them aren't very pleasant. The state of Uganda is as heartbreaking as it is shampoo-drinkingly frustrating. It's like, you know why they're behaving this way, but how do you begin to understand it? Ignorance and fear are just so not an excuse. Instability and garbage education are the fodder for awful superstitions like gays bringing misfortune and children's hearts satiating malevolent spirits, but how do you fix that place? I so wish there was something I could do more than just give pittance to Amnesty International and the like. It feels like throwing kitchen sponges at a tsunami.

[SiuiS]

I think there is. In my opinion a transwoman wearing woman clothes identifies herself as a woman. A man (that is non trans) wearing women cclothes still identifies as a man. Though i am curious if I am right about the first part. Maybe a transgender/-sexual could say whether I'right or wrong in thinking this...

It's not about how you identify though. It's about how other people identify you. If you are male-bodied enough to be seen as such, how you feel doesn't matter. You're Man, and dressing as Woman I ickywronggross.

Aren't you making the assumption here that a trans woman will look like a cis guy?

Similarly, a trans woman who looks like a woman is Woman. In this situation, at least. The danger of hypotheticals, working within their framework sort of makes you seem accepting or supportive of things you wouldn't be.

For some cheerier news, here's an article from The New York Times about Spectrum, the US military's first gay straight alliance.

Hot darn!

I hope so, but as a former enlisted man, I know what the views of the current enlisted corps is, and it doesn't matter what our officers and senior enlisted says, the change has to start outside the service.

I'm not saying it won't change, just it's going to take longer than people think.

That's the thing though. It has changed outside ther service. It's now trickling in. If anyone is aware of how much **** soldiers get for differing opinions on things as stupid as whether Marlboro reds, or red 100s are better, it's other solders. Those who are willing to put themselves on the line for something they believe in, in hostile territory – the worst kind, where there is no sympathy and your closest friends could hate you as soon as they find out – are the most likely to succeed.

[Lix Lorn]

I had the Captain Scarlet theme but that's because I'm an old man.

This is the voice of the lixerons.
We know that you can hear us, baator-fiend.

Tonight, our agents shall strike the city of london with mass cuddlings.

[Coidzor]

I had the Captain Scarlet theme but that's because I'm an old man.

...That was weird. I have no idea what to make of this.

[SiuiS]

Wait, what?

West Point cadets attended a leadership conference in Orlando, Fla., organized by OutServe, a group of openly gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender active-duty service members. Last spring at the Ring Dance, an annual dance for juniors at the Naval Academy, some midshipmen attended with their same-sex partners.

Wha? Reading the article, it seems to imply that there are transgender individuals who are incognito and continue passing as their assigned sex, but it's still a thought. Are there any transitioned individuals in active service? I hougjt that would be hugely frowned upon.

Or have I perhaps misread?

[Kindablue]

Wait, what?



Wha? Reading the article, it seems to imply that there are transgender individuals who are incognito and continue passing as their assigned sex, but it's still a thought. Are there any transitioned individuals in active service? I hougjt that would be hugely frowned upon.

Or have I perhaps misread?

I don't really know. Gender identity disorder is still a disqualifying medical condition for enlistment, so I wouldn't imagine there would be any openly trans people in the military, let alone any who had actually transitioned to some degree. Looking into it, the first informative page I could find was actually from OutServe.

[Asta Kask]

Someone on another board suggested an exchange - we send all our homophobes to Uganda and they send all their LGBTA people here. Everyone will be happy. Except the homophobes who are also racists, but I'm willing to take that.

[Saskia]

Someone on another board suggested an exchange - we send all our homophobes to Uganda and they send all their LGBTA people here. Everyone will be happy. Except the homophobes who are also racists, but I'm willing to take that.

Please, the racetards will be overjoyed at the thought of--Well maybe that's best to leave implied, but will it really matter after we've glassed the place?

[Pheehelm]

Wait, what?Wha? Reading the article, it seems to imply that there are transgender individuals who are incognito and continue passing as their assigned sex, but it's still a thought. Are there any transitioned individuals in active service? I hougjt that would be hugely frowned upon.

Have some excerpts from an article written by Andrew Tilghman for a military newspaper. (The website says Army Times; I have the same article in an issue of the Navy Times. I've started to suspect they run the same paper and slap a different name on it for different branches.)

She’s a lesbian, and almost everyone in her unit knows it.

She wears her hair cropped short and has a distinctly boyish appearance.

And she’s becoming manlier by the day, now that she’s started taking male hormones.

Call her Keith. That’s the name this 26-year-old specialist, now deployed to Afghanistan, plans to take when she completes a transition begun several months ago when she started giving herself testosterone injections every other week, under the direction of a civilian doctor who specializes in gender changes.

No one knows precisely how many transgender troops there may be in the force. Based on broad studies that are themselves imprecise, advocates estimate there may be as many as 5,000 people in the active and reserve components who will face some form of gender identity problem during their lifetimes, said Sue Fulton, a spokeswoman for OutServe, an organization of gay, bisexual and transgender service members.

Pentagon officials declined to respond to a request for comment by press time. But Defense Department regulations list gender identity disorder as one of a number of medical conditions that, while not considered disabilities, may “interfere with assignment to or performance of duty” and are grounds for administrative discharge.

The list also includes such conditions as seasickness, sleepwalking, bedwetting, dyslexia and other learning disorders, attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, obesity and severe allergies.

David McKean, a lawyer with the Servicemembers Legal Defense Network, which provides free legal advice to gay, bisexual and transgender troops, said SLDN gets calls from several hundred troops each year, about 10 percent of whom identify as transgender.

McKean said he has personally handled calls from “dozens” of transgender troops.

[SiuiS]

I don't really know. Gender identity disorder is still a disqualifying medical condition for enlistment, so I wouldn't imagine there would be any openly trans people in the military, let alone any who had actually transitioned to some degree. Looking into it, the first informative page I could find was actually from OutServe.

Hm. Wasn't GID recently reclassified? The "Gender Identity Disorder" that would preclude service doesn't really exist as such anymore.

Have some excerpts from an article written by Andrew Tilghman for a military newspaper. (The website says Army Times; I have the same article in an issue of the Navy Times. I've started to suspect they run the same paper and slap a different name on it for different branches.)

And here we have a paper circulating in the armed forces with almost definitive numbers, but no witch hunt. Huh. Well, this is a weird thing. I am at a loss for meaningful speech just now.

[gunnar11]

Wait, what?



Wha? Reading the article, it seems to imply that there are transgender individuals who are incognito and continue passing as their assigned sex, but it's still a thought. Are there any transitioned individuals in active service? I hougjt that would be hugely frowned upon.

Or have I perhaps misread?

I think it reads:
transgender active-duty service members.
Meaning just transgender people on duty. I thought it was frowned upon too, but maybe views changed and they are now accepted?

Or maybe it reads:

transgender active duty service members.
People who are actively transgender. Meaning that the first example implies that they're transgender but not showing it, or something.

It's just a wrongly formulated phrase.

[KenderWizard]

Aren't you making the assumption here that a trans woman will look like a cis guy?

That's a very succinct way of putting my nebulous feelings about those lines of explanation that I couldn't quite describe.

I suppose what there actually is is a spectrum (as per flipping usual). Say you have a woman cosplaying a male character, lets say ... Batman. That woman will have a "masculinity factor", somewhere between almost nothing (a voluptuous, heteronormatively attractive, soft-looking, petite bombshell, long eyelashes, long hair, ample busom with hourglass waist, a soft, feminine voice, etc etc) and lots (a trans woman who isn't "out" and still presents as her "birth" gender, with a "male" body, and perhaps even social masculine "cues", such as facial hair). Everything up to a certain point is definitely and obviously crossplay. Then there's a confusing grey area at the end, where the use of the word "crossplay" isn't exactly clear.

Still, if I was writing an article, I think I'd just go with crossplay being "someone cosplaying a character of the opposite gender, eg a woman cosplaying as Tony Stark", for simplicity and clarity. It doesn't really matter if that woman is trans or not, for the definition of crossplay.

Someone on another board suggested an exchange - we send all our homophobes to Uganda and they send all their LGBTA people here. Everyone will be happy. Except the homophobes who are also racists, but I'm willing to take that.

I like it!

[Kindablue]

Hm. Wasn't GID recently reclassified? The "Gender Identity Disorder" that would preclude service doesn't really exist as such anymore.

The current version of the APA association's DSM manual still calls it a mental illness.

[golentan]

The current version of the APA association's DSM manual still calls it a mental illness.

Just to be clear, the definition of a mental illness in the DSM is "a psychological pattern or anomaly, potentially reflected in behavior, that is generally associated with distress or disability, and which is not considered part of normal development of a person's culture." I think most people would agree that being Trans and/or having GID is a source of personal distress, and is not considered normal development. There isn't (or rather, should be) no shame in it being considered a disorder.

[noparlpf]

The current version of the APA association's DSM manual still calls it a mental illness.

The DSM-IV lists Gender Identity Disorder. I believe that the DSM-V, which is in the works, lists "Gender Dysphoria" instead, but I can't check that right now because the site appears to have taken down the proposed lists of disorders and criteria for the moment while they undergo another revision. It's going to be published in May 2013, so I believe this is the final revision before publication.

Kind of a tangent, but I find it interesting (and a little upsetting, as I believe the distinction is a valid one) that for the DSM-V they're folding Asperger's into Autism. I read a paper a little while ago that suggested the neurophysiology of the two conditions are somewhat different, but I guess from a psychological and treatment perspective they're similar enough to lump together.

Edit:

Just to be clear, the definition of a mental illness in the DSM is "a psychological pattern or anomaly, potentially reflected in behavior, that is generally associated with distress or disability, and which is not considered part of normal development of a person's culture." I think most people would agree that being Trans and/or having GID is a source of personal distress, and is not considered normal development. There isn't (or rather, should be) no shame in it being considered a disorder.

^ All this. ^

[Coidzor]

It's not about how you identify though. It's about how other people identify you. If you are male-bodied enough to be seen as such, how you feel doesn't matter. You're Man, and dressing as Woman I ickywronggross.

Cosplay is a form of performance, pageantry, and presentation as much as it is how one decided to dress one's self when one got up in the morning as I recall. To imply that it is immoral and oppression that the audience has a place, as you seem to be doing here, rather misses the point of the exercise as I understand it.

I've only got a limited understanding and experience of crossplay I'll admit, but from what I do know, the point of the exercise is to have some mixed cues going on rather than perfectly appearing to be a member of a given sex.

As far as I've ever been able to tell, the only ickywronggross factor is when people intentionally cosplay badly and in a grotesque, vulgar way to boot as in the case of Man-Faye who managed to get banned from something like all of the cons.

[Lentrax]

Man-Faye was later quoted as "out to have a good time."

Which none of us did.

[Mina Kobold]

It makes sense in a certain way. I think they associate HOMOSEXUAL with what has become known as the "gay lifestyle". In other words, they're afraid he'll become the very, very campy gay you see on TV.

It's the same story with atheists. "If you only had been satisfied with not believing in God, but you're an ATHEIST!" Because "everybody knows" that atheists eat babies.

Huuhn, those are terrible terrible by-products of modern culture. ;_;

Besides, everybody knows that it is feminists who eat babies. Atheists dance naked around the virgin sacrifices. And as a feminist atheist, I dance baby-shaped around the sacrificed nakedness! Television told me so! ^w^

Sorry, really really sorry. That was a terrible joke. m(_ _)m

Just to be clear, the definition of a mental illness in the DSM is "a psychological pattern or anomaly, potentially reflected in behavior, that is generally associated with distress or disability, and which is not considered part of normal development of a person's culture." I think most people would agree that being Trans and/or having GID is a source of personal distress, and is not considered normal development. There isn't (or rather, should be) no shame in it being considered a disorder.

I agree on the disorder part, although I think they might need to chance the part about non-conforming behaviour associated with distress or disability being an illness. It is a poor word choice for the purposes of avoiding stigma.

I propose that for the awareness of disorders-are-not-horrible, we institute a day of disorderly bookshelvesshows of our own disorderlyness! X3

In all seriousness, it might be a good idea to get more awareness about that. I am personally quite nervous about what people think about my being an Aspie. u_u'

Kind of a tangent, but I find it interesting (and a little upsetting, as I believe the distinction is a valid one) that for the DSM-V they're folding Asperger's into Autism. I read a paper a little while ago that suggested the neurophysiology of the two conditions are somewhat different, but I guess from a psychological and treatment perspective they're similar enough to lump together.

That one seemed quite odd to me too, and sad due to my current attachment to the label (Asperger is such a pretty name! It sounds like you are from a mountain in Asgard. ^_^), but it got even more curious when I investigated it. Apparently, it is not going to change in the European definition, despite the usual similarities between the two. Quite strange. ~_^

[golentan]

In all seriousness, it might be a good idea to get more awareness about that. I am personally quite nervous about what people think about my being an Aspie. u_u' \

I support this cause! To people who may not have heard, I am diagnosed Schizoaffective. I'm not schizophrenic, I don't hear voices or see things, I just develop delusions (which when I take my medication do not typically interfere with my day to day life) and suffer related depression. It has interfered with my ability to go to school, but I've managed to turn that around and am getting a degree next month. Actually, one of the biggest problems I've had historically has been other people's reactions, whether people thinking that they can "fix" me (usually by being a jerk at me and pointing out how crazy I am) or harassing me (I'm pretty sure I was wrongfully fired for it once, though I don't have proof).

[Asta Kask]

I think it would be more correct to call Gender Dysphoria an illness, because that causes clinically significant distress in certain people, and it does so regardless of whether the culture is transphobic or not (AFAIK). And that would probably be called a mental disorder - sounds like an anxiety disorder.

What's so horrible about having it as a mental disorder?

[noparlpf]

I think it would be more correct to call Gender Dysphoria an illness, because that causes clinically significant distress in certain people, and it does so regardless of whether the culture is transphobic or not (AFAIK). And that would probably be called a mental disorder - sounds like an anxiety disorder.

What's so horrible about having it as a mental disorder?

There's a weird social stigma about things being disorders and about people having disorders or syndromes or whatever. For some reason once something is a Disorder or a Syndrome instead of just a quirk, there's something wrong with the person. I generally don't tell people I have Asperger's because that colours their opinions of me in rather odd ways. Better to just be kind of quirky than to have a Syndrome.
(For example, at some point among all the crap that happened way back when around the end of high school, my ex posted something about me being "mentally challenged" in a long emotional rant on her tumblr. It was just one line out of a whole pile of stuff about her family, school, friends, whatever, but obviously it stuck out to me. I emailed her politely reminding her that I'm technically a genius (I mean really, right now I'm eighteen, a third-year undergrad, and I still hardly study), and that she meant "empathically challenged".)
Also it seems to me like many transgendered people feel like gender dysphoria being a "mental disorder" invalidates their identities.

[Asta Kask]

Can someone explain to me why that is?

[noparlpf]

Can someone explain to me why that is?

You also see it used as ammo by the "there's really just something wrong with you" people.

[Coidzor]

I think it would be more correct to call Gender Dysphoria an illness, because that causes clinically significant distress in certain people, and it does so regardless of whether the culture is transphobic or not (AFAIK). And that would probably be called a mental disorder - sounds like an anxiety disorder.

What's so horrible about having it as a mental disorder?

A fear of a double whammy of bigotry and discrimination, one for being trans and another for being "crazy." I'm not sure about how often that plays out, or if it's more that they'd get bigotry from transphobes and people who hate the mentally ill instead of just transphobes instead of intensified bigotry in general.

And a fair number of people unconsciously conflate any form of mental disorder with people who are institutionalized for their safety and the safety of those who they'd otherwise be around due to their mental illness.

They want the mentally ill cured, killed, or, since it doesn't get their consciences dirty, preferably swept under a rug where they don't have to think about them at all ever. I recall an article discussing how curiously we have no empathy for children who are born without the ability to feel empathy or who have difficulty with it and the comments basically amounting to wanting to excise them from the gene pool as aberrant monstrosities.

I agree on the disorder part, although I think they might need to chance the part about non-conforming behaviour associated with distress or disability being an illness. It is a poor word choice for the purposes of avoiding stigma.

Quite possibly, but the stigma comes well before one opens up a copy of the DSM though is the thing.

[noparlpf]

A fear of a double whammy of bigotry and discrimination, one for being trans and another for being "crazy." I'm not sure about how often that plays out, or if it's more that they'd get bigotry from transphobes and people who hate the mentally ill instead of just transphobes instead of intensified bigotry in general.

And a fair number of people unconsciously conflate any form of mental disorder with people who are institutionalized for their safety and the safety of those who they'd otherwise be around due to their mental illness.

They want the mentally ill cured, killed, or, since it doesn't get their consciences dirty, preferably swept under a rug where they don't have to think about them at all ever. I recall an article discussing how curiously we have no empathy for children who are born without the ability to feel empathy or who have difficulty with it and the comments basically amounting to wanting to excise them from the gene pool as aberrant monstrosities.

Quite possibly, but the stigma comes well before one opens up a copy of the DSM though is the thing.

Any chance you could find said article again? I'm curious to read that. (I've recently resolved to always save or bookmark articles and research papers so I can cite them later.)

[Coidzor]

Any chance you could find said article again? I'm curious to read that. (I've recently resolved to always save or bookmark articles and research papers so I can cite them later.)

Granted, it was a bit ago that I remember seeing it. This is the closest I could find, as it does look familiar but I haven't finished reading all the way through it to confirm..

[noparlpf]

Granted, it was a bit ago that I remember seeing it. This is the closest I could find, as it does look familiar but I haven't finished reading all the way through it to confirm..

Whether or not it's the same one, it's interesting. Thanks.
Could go on a tangent about more stuff along this line but it's rather off-topic. We were supposed to be talking about the stigma around Gender Identity Disorder because this is LGBTAitP.

[KenderWizard]

I think a more useful solution, rather than disassociating Gender Identity Disorder from the "disorder" part, is to work on mental health acceptance. There is still huge stigma about having mental health problems or illnesses. I think the people who feel GID shouldn't be a "disorder" are thinking "Well, there's nothing _wrong_ with me/us/them, it's just the way I/we/they are". But there's nothing "wrong" (as in bad) about any mental health illness, but we're taught there is something "wrong" with someone who suffers from one. Take away that social conditioning, and the GID problem resolves itself. Of course, that's not easy, but we're definitely making progress!

I support this cause! To people who may not have heard, I am diagnosed Schizoaffective. I'm not schizophrenic, I don't hear voices or see things, I just develop delusions (which when I take my medication do not typically interfere with my day to day life) and suffer related depression. It has interfered with my ability to go to school, but I've managed to turn that around and am getting a degree next month. Actually, one of the biggest problems I've had historically has been other people's reactions, whether people thinking that they can "fix" me (usually by being a jerk at me and pointing out how crazy I am) or harassing me (I'm pretty sure I was wrongfully fired for it once, though I don't have proof).

Congratulations!!

[golentan]

I agree with everything Kenderwizard just said. Also, thank you.