LGBTAitP #28: Come Taste the Rainbow!

[golentan]

That's a really random subject by anyone's standards to be fair

Speak for yourself.

[gunnar11]

NNo, they're perfectly accepting of everyone. It's just... well, someone described the society to me as being essentially the Gay Men's Dating Association, and if the amount of gossip that I hear at the lunches is to be believed, it seems that the hookup graph of the guys is nearly complete.

I guess it's self-perpetuating, really. The guys look at the soc and go "hey, lots of gay guys, awesome!", whereas the lesbians look at it and go "there's no girls there, it's pointless."

Well, over here it's the opposite:
50% of the girls I meet/befriend, call themselves bi or lesbian, while only 1/200th of the guys I meet call themselves gay or bi.
It's a sad world for me.

Want to switch, Helio?

Oooooh yeaaaaah.

I laughed SO hard! I loved it


@Socratov: I'll befriend you!
Don't go outing me, though. No-one knows :secretive:

[Asta Kask]

Which way is your sarcasm slanting?

Some trans* people argue that GID should be scrapped because of the social stigma associated with mental illness. Why thank you very much.

Two problems with this:

1) if GID is best described as a mental illness, then whether there's a social stigma attached to it doesn't really matter. It is what it is. The proper way to argue is that we should either scrap GID altogether (which I agree with), or say that it's not a mental illness but rather an endocrinological or uro-genital disorder (which I don't agree with).

2) if we scrap GID without a replacement diagnosis, many trans* people will be left without access to free or subsidized health care, insurance coverage, etc. Like it or not, many trans* people benefit hugely from specialized medical care. This is a more pragmatic argument.

Instead, I think we should focus on gender dysphoria as an illness, and have the various interventions available (including, but not restricted to, HRT, SRS and psychotherapy) as the treatment for gender dysphoria. A person who is on HRT for their gender dysphoria would be in the same position as a diabetic on insulin - healthy as long as they get their medicine.

I think that Gender Dysphoria should be tentatively placed in psychiatry as an anxiety disorder. It is similar in certain ways to General Anxiety Disorder, which also can be a diffuse feeling that something is dreadfully wrong. As we do more research, we may need to move it but let's not jump ahead of the research at the moment.

It could be argued that gender dysphoria and gender orientation issues warrants a specialty of its own, combining elements of endocrinology, surgery, psychiatry and psychology. I don't think this is tenable - the same could be said of Cushing's disease, for instance. There's also the risk that trans* patients would be sent to wander eternally between endocrinology, surgery and psychiatry as doctors with scarce resources see a chance to get rid of a patient. It's better to have it in one place and since the main manifestation (gender dysphoria) is mental I think it should be placed in psychiatry.

[noparlpf]

Well, my girlfriend and my ex have set up a date. I'm torn between furiously hoping that they will hit it off and my girlfriend will have her desired chance for a lesbian experience, and fear that they will descend into discussing awkward facts about me and giggling furiously at my expense.

More seriously, I do hope things go well.

Sounds awkward. Good luck!

Some trans* people argue that GID should be scrapped because of the social stigma associated with mental illness. Why thank you very much.

Two problems with this:

1) if GID is best described as a mental illness, then whether there's a social stigma attached to it doesn't really matter. It is what it is. The proper way to argue is that we should either scrap GID altogether (which I agree with), or say that it's not a mental illness but rather an endocrinological or uro-genital disorder (which I don't agree with).

2) if we scrap GID without a replacement diagnosis, many trans* people will be left without access to free or subsidized health care, insurance coverage, etc. Like it or not, many trans* people benefit hugely from specialized medical care. This is a more pragmatic argument.

Instead, I think we should focus on gender dysphoria as an illness, and have the various interventions available (including, but not restricted to, HRT, SRS and psychotherapy) as the treatment for gender dysphoria. A person who is on HRT for their gender dysphoria would be in the same position as a diabetic on insulin - healthy as long as they get their medicine.

I think that Gender Dysphoria should be tentatively placed in psychiatry as an anxiety disorder. It is similar in certain ways to General Anxiety Disorder, which also can be a diffuse feeling that something is dreadfully wrong. As we do more research, we may need to move it but let's not jump ahead of the research at the moment.

It could be argued that gender dysphoria and gender orientation issues warrants a specialty of its own, combining elements of endocrinology, surgery, psychiatry and psychology. I don't think this is tenable - the same could be said of Cushing's disease, for instance. There's also the risk that trans* patients would be sent to wander eternally between endocrinology, surgery and psychiatry as doctors with scarce resources see a chance to get rid of a patient. It's better to have it in one place and since the main manifestation (gender dysphoria) is mental I think it should be placed in psychiatry.

I think the DSM-V people are planning to change it to Gender Dysphoria, which is probably a good move.
Ideally, we could have separate specialties for everything, but I don't think that there are enough ill people to warrant that economically.

[Mono Vertigo]

I was like, "What's so weird about that?" But I guess in France maybe Homestuck isn't as hugely popular as it has become among American nerds. American cons are practically nothing but trolls now.

Exactly. I know it's quite popular in America, but it is very obscure over here, from what I understand.
Not that obscure anymore, I guess.
Not being a hipster here, just baffled/amused that so many fans show their very un-ironic love of the webcomic while the author is explicitly making fun of every part of the fandom.

That is a goofy way to protest against human rights, but I am just glad it is a creative thing and not violence. Do hope most of the Francophone world is represented by the people who were kissing rather than the people demonstrating, though. ^_^

Yeah, that's a good way of looking at it.
There was another gem in that same protestation. An older woman arguing that homosexuality was not natural, which is not an unusual opinion in any way. The unusual part was that she admitted that her father had taught her sewing because her mother did not know how to. But that was not natural either, of course! Men shouldn't know how to sew, and all women, should! But at least she knows and and look I'm not even sure because the point implied at the end is that she turned out just fine in spite of her parents being unnatural but but
well
bah, all I got from it is that the arguments are getting very pathetically weak nowadays.
(As a counterpoint, the show that interviewed that woman also interviewed a 11-year-old girl during the US elections. She was a big LGBT supporter. The journalist noted she was a lot more informed than most French adults. I'm pretty sure it was meant as an exaggeration, but turns out it's not at all.)

[noparlpf]

Exactly. I know it's quite popular in America, but it is very obscure over here, from what I understand.
Not that obscure anymore, I guess.
Not being a hipster here, just baffled/amused that so many fans show their very un-ironic love of the webcomic while the author is explicitly making fun of every part of the fandom.

Yeah, it's funny. I mostly enjoy the author's antics more than the fandom, myself.

[SiuiS]

Urgh. Had a Nightmare of a time last night/this morning. Generic(?) dysphoria building over a few days to a near panic attack, I'm not as good as my peers, I don't look how I feel, I don't have a life, I'm not really close to anybody and I'll never have a pack, etc. and it was tolerable, but it was one of those things where it was completely manageable but I would have felt better if I had the ability to have a break down instead of keeping up appearances. I feel exhausted and hung over. >_<

Well, my girlfriend and my ex have set up a date. I'm torn between furiously hoping that they will hit it off and my girlfriend will have her desired chance for a lesbian experience, and fear that they will descend into discussing awkward facts about me and giggling furiously at my expense.

More seriously, I do hope things go well.

Ah, I was thinking about that just yesterday/day before actually.im glad things are going well, I remember it had a lot of potential for heartbreak.

Depending on whether you care about doing it well, really bad disguises would be either really easy, or REALLY HARD.

That's true. The plan was for a good changeling disguise, and with very, very bad but obvious disguises to go on top of that. Up to and including someone with a full-blown, multi-faceted eye changeling disguise wearing a badl printed T-shirt saying "Kon sequratee" with a plastic microphone insisting "Come on guys, it's me, Phil! You know me, right?"

Simple: we are boared and thus give you attention.
*high five!*

I like to give her attention because she's fun and deserves it, myself.

Some trans* people argue that GID should be scrapped because of the social stigma associated with mental illness. Why thank you very much.

Zing.

Two problems with this:

1) if GID is best described as a mental illness, then whether there's a social stigma attached to it doesn't really matter. It is what it is. The proper way to argue is that we should either scrap GID altogether (which I agree with), or say that it's not a mental illness but rather an endocrinological or uro-genital disorder (which I don't agree with).

2) if we scrap GID without a replacement diagnosis, many trans* people will be left without access to free or subsidized health care, insurance coverage, etc. Like it or not, many trans* people benefit hugely from specialized medical care. This is a more pragmatic argument.

Instead, I think we should focus on gender dysphoria as an illness, and have the various interventions available (including, but not restricted to, HRT, SRS and psychotherapy) as the treatment for gender dysphoria. A person who is on HRT for their gender dysphoria would be in the same position as a diabetic on insulin - healthy as long as they get their medicine.

I think that Gender Dysphoria should be tentatively placed in psychiatry as an anxiety disorder. It is similar in certain ways to General Anxiety Disorder, which also can be a diffuse feeling that something is dreadfully wrong. As we do more research, we may need to move it but let's not jump ahead of the research at the moment.

It could be argued that gender dysphoria and gender orientation issues warrants a specialty of its own, combining elements of endocrinology, surgery, psychiatry and psychology. I don't think this is tenable - the same could be said of Cushing's disease, for instance. There's also the risk that trans* patients would be sent to wander eternally between endocrinology, surgery and psychiatry as doctors with scarce resources see a chance to get rid of a patient. It's better to have it in one place and since the main manifestation (gender dysphoria) is mental I think it should be placed in psychiatry.

Oh **** I was hoping that was an isolated incident >_< <_<;

In all fairness, I think most if not all mental disorders should be divorced from 'Mental Disorder' as well. There should also be an obvious and constantly represented spectrum; someone with depression is in a different category (than someone who can't control their moor functions or attention sufficiently to dress themself. Although that quickly begins to reek of the same sense of separation, so I guess that actually not a solution.

My complaint is that "Gender Identity Disorder" being a mental disorder means that it's a defect to identify as a different gender. That. Not the problem, that was never the problem, and it sure seems like that's just a very dismissive heteronormative view of the whole thing. Gender Dysphoria, suffering enough to impact your life, that is the problem. I mostly agree with you across the board.

And Starmark, you're one of the most functional human beings I know. Let's be honest, distancing myself from you just means I can't ride your coat-tails anymore.

[noparlpf]

Urgh. Had a Nightmare of a time last night/this morning. Generic(?) dysphoria building over a few days to a near panic attack, I'm not as good as my peers, I don't look how I feel, I don't have a life, I'm not really close to anybody and I'll never have a pack, etc. and it was tolerable, but it was one of those things where it was completely manageable but I would have felt better if I had the ability to have a break down instead of keeping up appearances. I feel exhausted and hung over. >_<

:< I'm sorry. Hope you're doing okay now?

Oh **** I was hoping that was an isolated incident >_< <_<;

If that's about the anxiety attack, try not to worry too much (trust me, I know that's easier said than done). Half of an anxiety disorder is anxiety brought on by worrying about anxiety.

[SiuiS]

:< I'm sorry. Hope you're doing okay now?

If that's about the anxiety attack, try not to worry too much (trust me, I know that's easier said than done). Half of an anxiety disorder is anxiety brought on by worrying about anxiety.

Yar. Mostly, but I think maybe I'm just ignoring it. I'm apparently good at that. It only becomes anxiety when I can't focus it somewhere else. It was being unable to vent a slew of things that caused my trouble, I think. Same as my hand, when it broke. When I could be angry I was fine, when I couldn't, it just folded into a consuming despair.

So I guess I need a hobby that's physical enough to take my mind off of things?

[KenderWizard]

I have Imposter Syndrome. It doesn't seem like that big of a deal, but it can be really overwhelming. I suppose, since it's not officially recognised, I have an anxiety and self-esteem problem, officially speaking. Imposter Syndrome seems to be most common in women in male-dominated academic fields, so that makes sense for me.

Bit of a wrong conclusion. It is not Black Widow who is lacking the weaponry to equal everybody else on the team, they are the ones who have to be gods and giants to get a spot on Black Widow's team.

I absolutely love this!! I am quoting you on this!

[noparlpf]

Yar. Mostly, but I think maybe I'm just ignoring it. I'm apparently good at that. It only becomes anxiety when I can't focus it somewhere else. It was being unable to vent a slew of things that caused my trouble, I think. Same as my hand, when it broke. When I could be angry I was fine, when I couldn't, it just folded into a consuming despair.

So I guess I need a hobby that's physical enough to take my mind off of things?

No idea, I'm awful at physical hobbies.

[Lix Lorn]

I have Imposter Syndrome. It doesn't seem like that big of a deal, but it can be really overwhelming. I suppose, since it's not officially recognised, I have an anxiety and self-esteem problem, officially speaking. Imposter Syndrome seems to be most common in women in male-dominated academic fields, so that makes sense for me.

I need to make my reaction to reading those descriptions something besides 'Sounds like me!'.
(HUGS)

[bluewind95]

Oh yeah! They were in my initial count but then I forgot to put them in my list. >,< Sorry, asexuals and demisexuals!

Raaaaaaaaaaaawr!!

Sokay, really

On another note... this is an awesome grandpa.

[Selpharia]

I have Imposter Syndrome. It doesn't seem like that big of a deal, but it can be really overwhelming. I suppose, since it's not officially recognised, I have an anxiety and self-esteem problem, officially speaking. Imposter Syndrome seems to be most common in women in male-dominated academic fields, so that makes sense for me.

Wow, this sounds very much like my situation too. I suppose I technically fall into the "women in male dominated fields" category though I wonder if that counts when everyone in the Security Studies thinks of me as a man.

On another note... this is an awesome grandpa.

D'awww

A side note: Dear author of this article: China's currency is the Renminbi, not the Yen. Side note to the side note: I love the Renminbi because it translates to "The People's Currency" and revolutionary Chinese bombast makes me giggle. And now, I've veered quite far from the main point, haven't I?

~Laura

[Socratov]

Well, over here it's the opposite:
50% of the girls I meet/befriend, call themselves bi or lesbian, while only 1/200th of the guys I meet call themselves gay or bi.
It's a sad world for me.

that's very easily explained: Manly Men(tm) don't have feelings (well, they have, but they don't acknowledge them), which has both it's merits and flaws, you decide which is which

@Socratov: I'll befriend you!
Don't go outing me, though. No-one knows :secretive:

no problem I htink I have experience with this sort of secret keeping. However, I'm a terribly bad liar, so if you hear me verbally dancing around the topic like one of those present day popstars, don't be surprised (seriously, where I'm lacking the athletic skills, most notably in suppleness, my verbal skill more then make up for it, again most notably the suppleness). yet no girlfriend for some time (maybe I should stop saying something stupid from time to time )

[Serpentine]

My complaint is that "Gender Identity Disorder" being a mental disorder means that it's a defect to identify as a different gender. That. Not the problem, that was never the problem, and it sure seems like that's just a very dismissive heteronormative view of the whole thing. Gender Dysphoria, suffering enough to impact your life, that is the problem. I mostly agree with you across the board.

I think I get what you mean about distinguishing between GID and Gender Dysphoria (and I haven't read the whatsit, so it's entirely possible it's problematic in the same way, iirc, transvestism was before it was removed), but I have to ask again because I think it's an important question for this subject: if having the wrong shaped* brain for your body isn't a mental disorder and/or a physiological defect, what is it? It's certainly not normal^, and for many people it's certainly not conducive to good mental health. And are you saying that it's a defect for someone to have depression (I'd say in a lot of cases it is, especially inasmuch as it is (usually? Often?) caused by chemical imbalances or somesuch), and that identifying it as such is a dismissive and neuronormative view? I suppose just identifying as the opposite gender might not be a disorder, but saying feeling like your whole body is Wrong isn't one seems like a pretty big stretch, and smacks more to me of dismissing the issue than identifying it as a medical one. Or is that what you're distinguishing between GID and GD?

*well, you know what I mean
^and this is not a dirty word, at least not in a medical context (culturally... Ew, Normals )

edit: Here's an avenue for a rebuttal, if you want one.
Take that woman I mentioned from My Transsexual Summer. She liked being trans, she was happy, she was healthy; there was no indication, at least as far as the show went, that her transness caused any mental or emotional problems for her, nor even social ones, at least none that got to her. She must have had problems with her body at some point as she had used the hormones and had breast implants and the like, but (iirc) she hadn't had the bottom surgery and had no intention of doing so; whatever problems she'd had with her body, she'd gotten it exactly the way she wanted it to be, or close enough to. Her transsexuality, in other words, wasn't a problem for her.
Take some other examples: a person with chronic depression, but who has gotten to the point where they don't need medication to keep themselves healthy; someone with schizophrenia, but it was diagnosed early and they were quickly put on medication, so that after a while they don't even need to use the medication anymore and never have a psychotic episode; or a person who is high-functioning autistic who has taught themselves or been taught the necessary social cues and practices to function healthily, happily and normally throughout their life.
A transsexual with no dysphoria, someone with depression who has it well managed, a schizophrenic who never has a psychotic episode, and an autistic who interacts perfectly well with others walk into a bar - in other words, people with mental disorders that are intrinsic to them and that they will always have, but that aren't a problem for them, that they are effectively (if not actually) "cured" of: is it still a disorder? Does it have to be a problem to be a disorder? Can it stop being a disorder and become something else? If so, what? A "condition"? I don't know. Maybe we'd have to ask someone who actually works in psychology... Where's a Smellie Hippie when you need one?

[Lentrax]

So they are saying we are wrong for feeling wrong with ourselves?

That's just dumb.

Coming up next, Science proven wrong because people do not wish it to be right.

[KenderWizard]

I need to make my reaction to reading those descriptions something besides 'Sounds like me!'.
(HUGS)

I know that feeling too! ((hugs!))

Wow, this sounds very much like my situation too. I suppose I technically fall into the "women in male dominated fields" category though I wonder if that counts when everyone in the Security Studies thinks of me as a man.

I think it does count, at least halfway. Cause it's a problem with how you see yourself, and you see yourself as a woman, so presumably you're internalising disrespect shown to women, even if it's not aimed directly at you. In any case, it's just most common among women in male-dominated academic fields, that doesn't prevent other flavours of people getting it.

I have a friend who has to remind me I have it, cause part of having it means I don't think I have it. >,<

[Serpentine]

So they are saying we are wrong for feeling wrong with ourselves?

Who is?

[Astrella]

I think I get what you mean about distinguishing between GID and Gender Dysphoria (and I haven't read the whatsit, so it's entirely possible it's problematic in the same way, iirc, transvestism was before it was removed), but I have to ask again because I think it's an important question for this subject: if having the wrong shaped* brain for your body isn't a mental disorder and/or a physiological defect, what is it? It's certainly not normal^, and for many people it's certainly not conducive to good mental health. And are you saying that it's a defect for someone to have depression (I'd say in a lot of cases it is, especially inasmuch as it is (usually? Often?) caused by chemical imbalances or somesuch), and that identifying it as such is a dismissive and neuronormative view? I suppose just identifying as the opposite gender might not be a disorder, but saying feeling like your whole body is Wrong isn't one seems like a pretty big stretch, and smacks more to me of dismissing the issue than identifying it as a medical one. Or is that what you're distinguishing between GID and GD?

*well, you know what I mean
^and this is not a dirty word, at least not in a medical context (culturally... Ew, Normals

I think the issue is more that under the current definition someone who's transgender but has 'finished' their transition (Insert discussion about whether you can considering transitioning to be ever done.) would still be classified under GID which doesn't really fit the definition of of a mental disorder?

"Any clinically significant behavioral or psychological syndrome characterized by the presence of distressing symptoms, impairment of functioning, or significantly increased risk of suffering death, pain, or other disability."

And there's also the fact that not everyone who doesn't identify as their assigned gender experiences significant dysphoria, which means it doesn't really fit the GID label either. I've always seen it as a more accurate narrowing it down to people who suffer severe dysphoria and desire / need medical aid for that.

(Also we don't really know the 'causes' of transness yet. So I wouldn't be to quick to put it down to just a brain thing. *shrug*)

[Serpentine]

Yeah, I went over a fair bit of that in my edit. But... can any case that requires medical attention to make it better really not be considered a disorder/condition/whatever?

[Astrella]

Yeah, I went over a fair bit of that in my edit. But... can any case that requires medical attention to make it better really not be considered a disorder/condition/whatever?

Well, it would be considered a medical condition then in DSM V which has "gender dysphoria" in it.

Edit; I do think a maybe more appropriate way to do is to just remove the stigma towards peeps who aren't neurotypical.

[The Succubus]

It just boils down to semantics I think. People with GID see folks with mental health issues getting treated badly by the community at large and are afraid that if GID is classed as a mental health issue, they're going to get the same abuse on top of all the other abuse they get. =/

From a medical angle, I can understand why GID could be seen to fall under the mental health umbrella. From the point of view of a doctor, treating a mental issue is no different to treating a physical issue in that they seek to remove the issue and leave a happy, healthy patient at the end of the process.

Edit; I do think a maybe more appropriate way to do is to just remove the stigma towards peeps who aren't neurotypical.

And this is the solution folks. =3

[Lentrax]

I was talking about the folks who seem to think we are diseased unenlighted idiots who are completely wrong about how we see ourselves.

[Serpentine]

I'm afraid I'm threatening to dip my toe into "no true transperson" territory here, but I really am just philosophically musing at this point: who does that leave, then, as non-disorder transsexuals? Is not at least some dysphoria, discomfort with the body, at least until the start of whatever transitioning they decide to do, a pretty essential part of the definition of transsexuality? edit: And, of course, that leads into the edit of my previous post: once that dysphoria's dealt with, one way or another, is there still a disorder there? But whatever we decide with that, has to apply to other mental disorders as well.
edit @ Lena's edit: Yeah, that's basically what I think is the nub of the problem.

@ Lentrax: Um... outside of some hypothetical reference to Cultural Attitudes Towards Mental Illness, I don't think anyone is doing that?

[Astrella]

@Succubus; GID is currently a mental disorder in DSM IV if I remember correctly.

Here's an article about the changes.

----

I'd personally put more emphasis on a better understanding of the diversity of trans* people. Everyone has different needs and it's important that that is understood. More general education for medical personnel about trans issues would also be really good, considering this.

[Serpentine]

Interesting. Looks fairly reasonable to me, though. I wish we knew more about what causes it... Both for curiosity's sake, and for clarity.

[Astrella]

It's not really a popular venue of research. Partly because of the troubles of reaching the community and getting good sample sizes and also because we're a pretty small group and not hugely in the social awareness either. (but that's improving.)

[Serpentine]

Yeah. It's been slow enough just getting any information on female homosexuals...

[Asta Kask]

A trans* person who does not suffer "clinically significant distress or suffering" does not have GID, as the matter stands today. You must have that (or be clearly nonfunctional - flowering mania, for instance) to even qualify for opening the DSM or ICD books at all. And I'd be very surprised if they removed that from the next edition.