The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction

[Forum Explorer]

Can anyone try and confirm some of the details about this from the Eisenhorn trilogy??

Well I'm 100% about used by a Chaos Cult to preserve a great Chaos Sorcerer.

[jseah]

It's not like the Culture would just send a ship in right off the bat. Firstly, they still can't get in.

Secondly, the first thing to go into the webway would be an automated science vessel, to test what exists on the other side (now that they have a guess that it leads into the warp and isn't a galaxy-range displacer)

And yeah, without hyperspace, Displacers and pancakers don't work, effectors are restricted in range massively and probably LOS only. Designing an inorganic to think in pure realspace wouldn't be beyond their capabilities, although it'll never get as high as a Mind, probably 1:10 to 1:50 at most. (this would go up as they reverse engineer Necron tech and learn to miniaturize their stuff to subatomic levels)

So, it makes them human-like instead of supermen, although still a major force. (10^8 W pistol and mirror fields anyone?)


Also, what happens if you use a Gellar Field inside the webway? Since a GF enforces realspace physics on the warp, hyperspace would exist inside that bubble.

[Gavinfoxx]

I don't think Gellar Fields will work in the webway -- for one thing, they'd be redundant, since the webway itself enforces more normalcy than the gellar field, and the field won't penetrate the webway's walls.

And in the Webway, you would seriously want to send tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of ultra-fast, very high end (probably relatively large, maybe person sized?) automated, networked drones (probably linked by nanodust or repeaters, to share information, or whatever) to map the bloody thing...

And just make it bigger to make it smarter, yaknow?? More space = more capacity for thought.

[Forrestfire]

If the webway enforces normalcy, why wouldn't they have hyperspace?

[Gavinfoxx]

If the webway enforces normalcy, why wouldn't they have hyperspace?

Cause it is enforcing relative normalcy within the warp... it might not enforce the links to the hyperspace dimension, it is, after all, still in the Warp, which doesnt connect with hyperspace.. And don't they have other methods of going ftl, which might work?

...would oldcron style necron ftl work if a ship somehow got in the webway?? That is somehow gravitic based or something?

[Forum Explorer]

If the webway enforces normalcy, why wouldn't they have hyperspace?

The webway doesn't enforce normalcy, it's just stable and deamon free. You can also walk it if you're crazy enough to. (and immortal to live long enough)

Cause it is enforcing relative normalcy within the warp... it might not enforce the links to the hyperspace dimension, it is, after all, still in the Warp, which doesnt connect with hyperspace.. And don't they have other methods of going ftl, which might work?

...would oldcron style necron ftl work if a ship somehow got in the webway?? That is somehow gravitic based or something?

Eh, maybe? We really had even less info on how they went faster the light besides it used something called an Inertialess Drive

[jseah]

The webway doesn't enforce normalcy, it's just stable and deamon free. You can also walk it if you're crazy enough to. (and immortal to live long enough)

With a space suit hopefully? Or does the webway have breathable air? =P

[Gavinfoxx]

With a space suit hopefully? Or does the webway have breathable air? =P

It has breathable air, and gravity, and a 'ground'. Remember, it is designed as a transport system. It looks misty and foggy and stuff. I think the ground is... spongy? Or rubbery? Springy, I think. For walking. Does anyone have any descriptions of what going through the webway is like? I remember several books talk about it...

[Maugan Ra]

The Webway is not normal space, by any stretch of the imagination. It's sort of halfway between the Warp and material space, so physics and things like hyperspace don't really work there.

For a good reference image for what Commoragh can look like, here's the Port of Lost Souls. Each and every one of those ships you can see there is... oh, about five kilometers long. I appreciate the Culture build larger ships, but still, it's useful to get a comparison. And it provides a decent example of why attempting to go through the Webway on foot (or in a ship without a map) is a less-than-brilliant idea.

Also, for several sections of the Webway, navigation is accomplished by pattern recognition, not anything sensible like landmarks. If you want to get to a particular destination, you walk a very complex route that might double back on itself and reverse gravity six and a half times to get there. If you walk the exact sequence, it doesn't matter where in the Webway you started. If you don't walk that sequence, nothing else will get you to your destination. Of course, in some regions, this doesn't hold true.

Also, time is one of the dimensions that you can transverse in certain areas, if you know how.

Best of luck mapping the place...

[Gavinfoxx]

Best of luck mapping the place...

Some of the places are also just a network of nodes, and you go some place the 'typical' way (ie, go to this node, then this node, than this exit). Some of the places have been breached by daemons, and daemons don't flood the rest of it due to the wards in other areas preventing passage, even though they are 'in' the Webway.

Hence the idea of using hundreds of thousands (or more) of supersonic, extra-large, extra-independent mapping drones. Tons of them will be lost, and probably have to self-destruct, but via sheer brute force and numbers that the Eldar and Dark Eldar can't match, you should be able to map a large portion of it.

[jseah]

Oh. Lol, it has air.

Nah, Culture ships probably don't fit in the webway then. I don't think a GCU can even land.

RE hyperspace in the webway:
My current thinking is that hyperspace is an actual 4th dimension. In the Warp, this dimension simply doesn't exist (hence the no-hyperspace field that the Chaos artifacts have - it would be too easy otherwise =P).

It's not so much that they can't connect to hyperspace in the webway, it's just that in the webway, hyperspace does not exist. You're going from a 4 dimensional universe to a 3 dimensional one, which strongly suggests that anything with a bit in hyperspace can't use a webway gate (since you literally wouldn't fit through it no matter how small you are since the gate itself is zero length in hyperspace)

[Gavinfoxx]

You know why many eldar tanks are a certain size and shape?

So they can fit in the smaller parts of the Webway.

That's why you would want to use small drone ships -- a few meters wide at most, but probably long and snakelike, think Stargate ships to go through Stargates-- to map the Webway. So they can go through places. Ideally, they'd be able to flatten out or squirm into different 3d shapes, as needed!

Also, some places don't have air... probably via damage...

But yes, it is designed to facilitate transportation of lesser entities, by what are essentially gods. Of course it would have air and a ground that is easy to traverse!

And yes, there are places you can bring a relatively large ship in (40k battleship size -- 5 km, maybe 8 km) into the webway. And lots of Culture ship types are about that size!

[jseah]

And yes, there are places you can bring a relatively large ship in (40k battleship size -- 5 km, maybe 8 km) into the webway. And lots of Culture ship types are about that size!

They're all 3D though. Most Culture ships have *something* on them that is in hyperspace.

Imagine when they finally manage to activate the gate and send a piece of metal through. Then they try to send a tiny scout probe and it doesn't work, it simply won't go through the gate. But all the IoM ones work, just that Culture ones don't.

[Gavinfoxx]

They're all 3D though. Most Culture ships have *something* on them that is in hyperspace.

Imagine when they finally manage to activate the gate and send a piece of metal through. Then they try to send a tiny scout probe and it doesn't work, it simply won't go through the gate. But all the IoM ones work, just that Culture ones don't.

Well, their 3D-only design has to be... really good, right? And especially since they can make things of whatever shapes that are necessary? And their traditional 3D-only AI and biological drones have to be fantastic. Even if technically obsolete. Also, I edited my most recent post, you should take a look at it.

[Tiki Snakes]

They're all 3D though. Most Culture ships have *something* on them that is in hyperspace.

Imagine when they finally manage to activate the gate and send a piece of metal through. Then they try to send a tiny scout probe and it doesn't work, it simply won't go through the gate. But all the IoM ones work, just that Culture ones don't.

Without knowing much about the webway at all, (wrong side of the setting for what passes for my expertise) I'd hazard a gut feeling guess that it wouldn't really work like that.

I mean, for example I seriously doubt the webway is breathable because of it being filled with, like, Carbon Dixoide and Oxygen gas. Eldar being space-elves, chances are instead of it being 3 dimensional or 4 dimensional, it'd simply work on entirely different rules (much as the Warp does). So, a culture ship entering the Webway would continue to exist, in tact, it just wouldn't be able to move in it's fourth dimension, be that to phase around stuff, cut corners, or send signals between processor bits in order to think faster than is otherwise possible. This feels a lot more right than them being unable to enter at all.

The only question is, how would it work upon leaving the Webway.
You have two options. Culture-Reality-Dominant; Everything is back to normal. Worst case scenario, the mind, drone or other hyperspace thinker is traumatised.
Grimdark Universe Dominant; The Hyperspace componants simply no longer exist, the ship that leaves the Webway is operated by a machine intelligence, resembling a Mind but with the spark that gave it true intelligence sheered off, or simply with it's processing capabilities and four-dimensional movement/manipulation abilities destroyed beyond repair.

Alternate Grimdark Universe Dominant results; The bits effected by the hyperspace/Webway incompatability are infected with the warpy, narrative-law ruled nature of the webway. Perhaps the Mind now has a presence in the warp. Perhaps the Mind's personality is permenantly changed as something else piggy-backs into the rational world in the wake caused by the Ship's pattern passing through non-real space, perhaps all reflexive surfaces in ship now reflect what seems to be a parallel universe where everyone on the ship has been brutally murdered and the ships ruined, corroding corridors are littered with the slowly dessicating bodies of it's crew and the vacuum of space. Perhaps any shadow on the ship is now capable of splitting apart and scurrying away like a swarm of tiny spiders, regardless of what is casting the light and whether or not the object casting the shadow was in the ship at the time.
(Many of these could be largely harmless even, after all, it's just the Webway, it's not like it's the actual warp or anything. )

But, like I said, I know only slightly more about the Eldar than I do about the culture.

[jseah]

This feels a lot more right than them being unable to enter at all.

The thing is that without hyperspace in the webway, it implies that the webway gates are fully 3D only. Specifically, the interface between the webway and realspace would be 3D.

Trying to push a 4D Culture ship through the interface would be like... say, trying to push a football through a picture of a teleportation gate. It just doesn't work and won't ever work until you make a 4D webway gate.

[Gavinfoxx]

Jseah, will you get another post tonight?

[Tiki Snakes]

The thing is that without hyperspace in the webway, it implies that the webway gates are fully 3D only. Specifically, the interface between the webway and realspace would be 3D.

Trying to push a 4D Culture ship through the interface would be like... say, trying to push a football through a picture of a teleportation gate. It just doesn't work and won't ever work until you make a 4D webway gate.

Hmm. I see why you might think that. Square peg, round hole, all that. But I'm not sure that I agree with your logic. If Hyperspace is just another special axis, literally another dimension, then the gate itself should also exist in all four dimensions even if the thing on the other side doesn't, because the gate itself does exist in real space, even if the Eldar lack any knowledge of it. Because surely in theory, everything exists in Hyperspace, it just doesn't move in hyperspace, it all just stays at the same level so to speak. So if an Eldar ship can pass into the webway, so can the Culture ship, it just has possible consequences once inside, because there is no warpy webway analogue and the Culture-ship's greater depth in that particular dimension (and it's greater usage of it) is simply not supported or accounted for.

[Spamotron]

I'm with Tiki a Culture Mind can enter a Webway gate but something really bad happens once its on the other side.

[Tiki Snakes]

I'm with Tiki a Culture Mind can enter a Webway gate but something really bad happens once its on the other side.

Well, something might happen. It might not be particularly bad, or nothing at all might happen. The possibility is very much there, though, and the only way the culture could really find out is by trying it.

Assuming of course, the more eldar-literate amongst us don't know anything more about the webway that would invalidate my guesswork and theorising.

[Gavinfoxx]

The thing is, the Warp is supposed to be a catch all for all those weird dimensions and stuff... I know, by default, you aren't going by this (it does not fit the premise), but in 40k setting, the warp IS all the weird spacial and other dimensions...

[jseah]

Eh, whatever, I'll go with that even though I wasn't talking about the physical parts of the gate (I was referring to the interface between realspace and webway being 3D).

So again, what happens if you use a gellar field in the webway? Does it just get more realspace-like? (relatedly, what happens to a webway gate near a Necron Pylon / Tyranid Shadow or other Warp disruption effects?)

[Fan]

Eh, whatever, I'll go with that even though I wasn't talking about the physical parts of the gate (I was referring to the interface between realspace and webway being 3D).

So again, what happens if you use a gellar field in the webway? Does it just get more realspace-like? (relatedly, what happens to a webway gate near a Necron Pylon / Tyranid Shadow or other Warp disruption effects?)

The Webway has fractured, and broken in the past. I'd imagine that the incidents you're discussing are what cause that to happen.

Still, I'd like to see a mind get caught in a warp rift, and go... off kilt.

[Gavinfoxx]

The webway is wayyyy more resilient to warp disruptions than other methods of travel via the warp. It's often the only way to get 'through' a warp storm, being pretty much insulated from it. This is, however, not 100%; the webway has been broken in some areas, presumably by very violent events.

Though, what would happen if you turn on a normal gellar field, or a necron super-gellar field on in the webway... ****ifiknow... either 'nothing' or 'something really really bad, and maybe suicidal'. But.. it IS stabilized warp. remember that.

[Forum Explorer]

A normal Geller field? Nothing. The webway is too stable to be affected by it as far as I remember. A Geller field doesn't remove the warp in any way but mostly just repels the dangerous stuff (after all psykers are unaffected by Geller fields.) so I doubt much would happen. At worst I would suspect that the ship using the Geller field would slow down as a result.

A null wouldn't do anything either. However something like a Necron Null Field might do something like cause a rupture. We don't really know though.

[hamishspence]

In the Deathwatch: First Founding book, the Iron Hands article suggests that some Iron Hands might have managed the feat of divesting themselves of every bit of organic matter, and becoming entirely artificial.

Sounds a bit like an Imperial version of The Pontius from Eisenhorn.

The Proteus Protocol is alluded to on page 44 of Dark Heresy: Disciples of the Dark Gods- as one of the legendary heretek accomplishments that groups like the Logisticians seek to relearn- a method of transferring not just knowledge and memory, but personality and will, into an artificial brain.

So The Pontius, could have been someone who managed to discover the Proteus Protocol, and arranged for it to be performed on himself.

[jseah]

Oh, I forgot to ask. The thing I have planned for the Harlequins assumes that those guys have access to future sight. They DO have access to future sight, yeah?

[Forum Explorer]

Oh, I forgot to ask. The thing I have planned for the Harlequins assumes that those guys have access to future sight. They DO have access to future sight, yeah?

We have no idea!

Seriously we have almost no idea what they do.

They seem to want to reunite the Eldar and Dark Eldar. They make sure the Eldar remember the fall. They are almost all worshippers of the Eldar Trickster God who managed to escape Slaanash by outsmarting it and hiding away. Except for the Solitare who is doomed to be eaten by Slaanash and for some reason is incredibly powerful.

They are masters of the Webway and seem to never get lost inside it. (Something even the Dark Eldar and Eldar can't claim.) In fights they tend to use psychic hallucinations to get into close combat and use various different weapons, one of which is known as the Harliquin Kiss; a microthin wire that they inject into their enemy which then uncoils and basically liquefies a bunch of the target's insides.

I suppose if they didn't have access to future sight they might just ask a sympathetic Farseer to help them.

[Gavinfoxx]

If Harlequins don't have access to future sight... than they do a damn good job hiding it... Cause all the stuff they do seems to be as if they have more future sight than farseers...

Really, no one understands the Harlequins. I would say (as a wild guess) they get flashes of insight, due to their unique connection to their god, that in many ways is better than the future sight of Farseers, but acts differently in how it plays out.

[jseah]

part 8.5 Orks

Spoiler

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Week 1
Large Sticks Speaks Softly reports nothing amiss in the running of the Carnival (as it is now being called among our crew) for keeping the Orks occupied. It appears that pacifying the Orks is surprisingly easy to do, thinking up 'fun' games appears as easy as making simple blood sports or high adrenaline activities. With the Orks competitive enough to take the time to relearn each game, this is required rather less often than expected.

We are slowly working up the complexity level of the games as the Orks get used to each one. Perhaps a ceiling will be found, or perhaps we will be able to slowly increase the general intelligence of the Orks. Their biology interfaces with the Warp in unknown ways, so it might not be outside the realm of possibility that the state of their society affects the kind of Ork that grows.

Week 2
Some of the Ork ships that were sent out have returned, approximately half of them were never sighted again, and half of those half returned with less Orks on board than left.

A short skirmish resulted where a number of the returning ships arriving together seemed to have been taken over by their destination tribes and they appeared with a small fleet of Ork ships. This fleet proceeded to attempt hostile action and Large Sticks Speaks Softly reports that they have been summarily destroyed, but not until after all their weapons had been confiscated.

We are investigating the range of the Orkish Warp effect using those weapons. Weapons that have no real basis for working can be made to fire energy beams or projectiles (sometimes without ammunition) provided sufficient Orks are nearby. Where nearby does not include the adjacent solar system but appears to work perfectly fine inside this system.

Week 3
Despite insulation from Ork spores, psychological changes have been detected in a number of our organic personnel, including the SC agent posing as warboss. We are currently investigating the vector for this change and have removed all ground presence from the Carnival. In some senses, the change might be indistinguishable from the usual thinking pattern changes that Contact often experiences on cultural exchanges; but we noticed this on the portion of the crew that did not have ground side contact.
Despite not seeing Warp effects using the new detector, we still suspect a Warp effect. We have replaced the SC agent with a simulacra, still controlled by the agent via Augmented Reality.

So... anyone happen to know the range of the Waagh field?

Also, I don't see why a Mind should be affected via the Ork field. I understand why humans, being warp sensitive, would be affected by the Orks, but an inorganic without Warp presence or any ability to sense the warp shouldn't notice anything at all. Minds should be basically immune to all psychic phenomena that don't affect realspace.
(edit, this is not much different from trying to mind control a pocket calculator)

RE Eldar:
Been thinking them over. Apart from the general "we don't care about other races", the Eldar civilization pre-Fall appears to be mostly agreeable and very much Happy Fun Times all round.
It would not be adverse to the Culture to try helping them recover that position... provided this did not involve the killing of everything else that used to occupy Eldar worlds. And that this did not result in the complete destruction of the Necrons.

It's not like the Culture don't understand a superiority complex since its arguable that they have one too.

Dark Eldar:
Come to think of it, some of their materials are noted to be wraithbone or similar Warp stuff. That's um... weird. Coz they aren't psychic. How do they make those things?

But Dark Eldar do use normal materials at least.