The Singularity

[SlyGuyMcFly]

You know that there are a WHOLE TON of strains of E.Coli, and you can find some of the safe ones in just about any biology lab ever??

I was referring to the fact that E. Coli has some 4.6 million base pairs to human's 3.3 billion. More importantly, it's a prokaryote. You can use plasmids to get it to splice it's own genes, which is why tinkering with E. Coli's genes sort of like playing with self-assembling Lego, or the aforementioned Kinder Egg toys.

[Teron]

The main problem is that, if your hand-picked group produces better children than your rejects, you don't know if it's because your program is working or because you sabotaged the control group. The control group needs to represent the typical population, not just its dregs (according to whatever criteria you're using).

There's also the difficulty of (ethically) ensuring the specially bred and control babies are raised and educated the same way, which would almost certainly require immediate and long-term seperation from the parents, so you can actually determine the effects of your genetic screening. In fact, you should probably also use surrogates mothers to make sure your program participants don't give their kids a non-genetic edge (via the mother's diet, for instance) before they're even born.

[pendell]

There's also the difficulty of (ethically) ensuring the specially bred and control babies are raised and educated the same way, which would almost certainly require immediate and long-term seperation from the parents, so you can actually determine the effects of your genetic screening. In fact, you should probably also use surrogates mothers to make sure your program participants don't give their kids a non-genetic edge (via the mother's diet, for instance) before they're even born.

Yeah, and I couldn't go for that. I contend that all human beings are owed a certain degree of dignity and respect solely on the basis of being human. Raising a child as a lab rat would contradict that idea.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[warty goblin]

Yeah, and I couldn't go for that. I contend that all human beings are owed a certain degree of dignity and respect solely on the basis of being human. Raising a child as a lab rat would contradict that idea.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Which means that the study would have a very hard time controlling outside sources of variance well enough to really make a cause and effect argument. Controlling for the placebo effect here could also be rather difficult.

[Teron]

Yeah, and I couldn't go for that. I contend that all human beings are owed a certain degree of dignity and respect solely on the basis of being human. Raising a child as a lab rat would contradict that idea.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

I wholeheartedly agree, but I was focusing on the scientific validity of the experiment.

[pendell]

Which means that the study would have a very hard time controlling outside sources of variance well enough to really make a cause and effect argument. Controlling for the placebo effect here could also be rather difficult.

Okay. So we'll start with lab mice who don't have those inconvenient issues.

Of course, this might happen .

*Ponders the possibility of conquering the world with genetically-engineered supermice*

Tongue-in-cheek,

Brian P.

[jseah]

Well, we're far away from any progress in genetically engineering humans precisely because genetically engineering humans is not something governments are willing to fund. There is also the side-effect that being able to genetically engineer something implies the ability to clone it. (IIRC, we had to be able to clone mice and maintain embryonic stem cells in culture before we could genetically engineer mice)

And that genetic engineering in mice or other large mammal requires at least 2 generations (your first generation is a chimera), which is far far too long to wait for humans.


But well, fund the research and you get it. It hasn't been funded, so we don't have it. Which is sort of a waste since the human genome must be one of the more well-studied ones out there.

[Wardog]

Well, we're far away from any progress in genetically engineering humans precisely because genetically engineering humans is not something governments are willing to fund...

But well, fund the research and you get it. It hasn't been funded, so we don't have it. Which is sort of a waste since the human genome must be one of the more well-studied ones out there.

I'm not sure it's a "waste" that there hasn't been funding for something that:

• We have no idea how expensive or effective it would be (or how long/how much it would take to get it effective),
• Would probably result in a lot of harm in the short term (due to failed experiments/ unexpected side effects) during the development period,
• Would take a very long time to tell if it was actually working, with no serious side-effects (due to the long time it takes for humans to mature, let alone live out their full natural lives),
• Would probably (due to the above points) be a very inefficient way of improving human health/wellbeing/potential,
• Almost all major attempts to do similar things have gone horribly, due to at best involved well-meaning people meddling with things they didn't properly understand, and at worst being driven by bigotry and/or pseudoscience.

[Frozen_Feet]

It accomplished murder on bigotted grounds, that achieved some end that some people who had nothing to do with it say is positive.

Isn't that what I said?

this is by no means a unique accomplishment, and but for forum rules I could give you a non-comprehensive list of equally appalling 'accomplishments' that would be pages long, entirely off the top of my head. If you are feeling the need to defend a pogrom, reconsider your life.

Now you're just proving my point for me. This is why I initially settled on vague allusion to the issue, before Pendell let the genie out of the bottle. Last line of your paragraph is pretty telling. I was talking of Aktion T4, not the Final Solution. Historically, the first lead to the second, but admitting that systematically killing people with inheritable defects like scizophrenia or Down's syndrome will remove those traits from a population, is not the same as condoning killing those people, and is a far cry from condoning racial hatred towards jews.

Yet, because I mentioned one, you now apparently feel the need to check how I really feel about the last.

...if it works as advertised, and there's no real reason to think it will yet, yes.

So far, it has worked exactly as advertised. We have succesfully transferred cold-resilience genes from a fish to a tomato, and it had precisely the planned consequences. There are multiple other examples that have been achieved with mice and fruit flies.

Ergo, our techniques work on many-celled organisms just as well as on bacteria and viruses, as long as we're dealing with isolated and well-understood mutations.

[RPGuru1331]

Isn't that what I said?

Some of us are slightly better educated and know not to speak wistfully on the merits of genocide.

Last line of your paragraph is pretty telling.

I will never again live a complete life knowing I didn't properly smile when told of the merits of genocide.

I was talking of Aktion T4, not the Final Solution.

The disabled are a well-documented, if less-well-publicized, aspect of the Holocaust. That you are trying to avoid that word is not lost on me. What's wrong? Doesn't it feel good to just ignore society's taboos?

systematically killing people with inheritable defects like scizophrenia or Down's syndrome will remove those traits from a population

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epidemi..._schizophrenia
http://www.rightdiagnosis.com/d/down...ts-country.htm
http://www.rightdiagnosis.com/e/epil...ts-country.htm


Feel free to stop smiling after you put that calculator down.

Yet, because I mentioned one, you now apparently feel the need to check how I really feel about the last.

I don't care how you feel in your heart of hearts. You said the holocaust had merits. I can't say for sure that every genocide can be linked to some perceived good by tiny-minded fools (some of them even factually), but it's certainly been done in every single one of them I'm familiar with. You aren't some brave thinker, you are an insensate who's retracing the steps of bigots. Eugenicists came up, for crying out loud. Perhaps we can discuss how there are fewer poor per capita in Germany than in the USA! Obviously the work of that fine man who did all the killings of the unfit!

Ergo, our techniques work on many-celled organisms just as well as on bacteria and viruses, as long as we're dealing with isolated and well-understood mutations.

While I'm sure your fact checking on complex biological processes is as solid as your ability to spend 5 minutes fact checking already-gathered statistics on disability, I'm rather too angry to do so myself. Go figure!

[Frozen_Feet]

Some of us are slightly better educated and know not to speak wistfully on the merits of genocide.

It seems I must polish my rhetoric skills, because apparently why I speak in such a tone is lost to you. You see, from the start, my intention was to lampshade how calm-minded discussion about breeding humans is impossible, because people have it in clear memory what happened last time things went that way, and find the whole topic distasteful.

Oh, wait second. Your rising blood pressure suggests you did get it. My bad.

The disabled are a well-documented, if less-well-publicized, aspect of the Holocaust. That you are trying to avoid that word is not lost on me. What's wrong? Doesn't it feel good to just ignore society's taboos?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epidemi..._schizophrenia
http://www.rightdiagnosis.com/d/down...ts-country.htm
http://www.rightdiagnosis.com/e/epil...ts-country.htm

You know, you make such a good comedian when you are serious. Oh hey, let's look at the articles. Funny how wikipedia's DALY rate of schizophrenia in Germany is among the lowest ones. Your other articles specifically state: "WARNING! EXTRAPOLATION ONLY. NOT BASED ON COUNTRY-SPECIFIC DATA SOURCES", so they are, sadly, useless to me, because I would've liked actual country-specific statistics as they would satisfy my morbid curiosity far better.

What, you're trying to make me feel bad by letting me know how many people I would actually need to kill if I wanted to exterminate all instances of mentally handicapped? Me, the guy who started making quips about space nazis before the rest of you even got on this train? You must know you're fighting a windmill there.

For the record, extrapolated incidences for my home country are 6,518 people with Down's syndrome, and 44,093 for epilepsia. I didn't do the math to converts DALY to inviduals, but I see it's at the lower end. Funny, I thought my people had a reputation of being lunatics.

I don't care how you feel in your heart of hearts. You said the holocaust had merits.

Oh, sure I did. What I didn't do was to claim that those merits outweighed its drawbacks. My quips are entirely based on the perception that just mentioning such merits will cause people to take up arms and shout from the top of their lungs how those things were bad, and how I should feel bad for ever bringing them up. Which is exactly what you, my dear friend, have done.

While I'm sure your fact checking on complex biological processes is as solid as your ability to spend 5 minutes fact checking already-gathered statistics on disability, I'm rather too angry to do so myself. Go figure!

You know, with the same effort you browsed wikipedia for all those other articles, you could've as well looked up the fish tomato.

But the problem here is not my education or lack there of, it's the fact that our sense of humour lies in different places. You prefer not to talk lightly about genocide, because genocide is Serious Business, yo. I need to use black humour when talking about these things, because otherwise my "insensitive twit" person gets teary-eyed.

But as amusing as your righteous indignation towards my uneducated person is, I bet it's tiresome for others to follow. So I suggest we stop our comedy act here and talk like normal adults from here on. Thanks for being my straight man.

[pendell]

This is why I initially settled on vague allusion to the issue, before Pendell let the genie out of the bottle.

And I'm sorry for that. It's just that since history is my hobby, I feel almost an obligation, when ideas are being discussed, to root around and see if it's ever been done before. Then try to signpost any obvious warnings or mistakes. Sometimes things sound a lot better in a laboratory or a student union than when they're actually applied in real life.

That doesn't mean we should stop trying to do science just because evil people have misused it , or well-meaning people have made terrible mistakes. But it does mean we should learn from the mistakes made in the past. And the lesson I'm taking from this is to concentrate on gene therapy for voluntary candidates, as opposed to sweeping plans to uplift the human race.

But as amusing as your righteous indignation towards my uneducated person is, I bet it's tiresome for others to follow.

Yes. It makes ME feel guilty because I feel like I provoked this, and it was NOT my intent to troll the thread.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Poison_Fish]

You know, you make such a good comedian when you are serious. Oh hey, let's look at the articles. Funny how wikipedia's DALY rate of schizophrenia in Germany is among the lowest ones. Your other articles specifically state: "WARNING! EXTRAPOLATION ONLY. NOT BASED ON COUNTRY-SPECIFIC DATA SOURCES", so they are, sadly, useless to me, because I would've liked actual country-specific statistics as they would satisfy my morbid curiosity far better.

DALY does not work the way you are intending to use it. The causation there has far more to do with modern health care then anything to do with genocide. That the Eugenics was often wrong on Schizophrenia as well in that it has multiple causation beyond heritability should not be lost here. Considering other countries with strong amounts of mental health care, any claim coming about the "success" of said genocide is not really valid to begin with. AKA, it's a red herring of thought in this context. That you are willing to explore a subject that has low validity actually does say a lot about your character.

[Frozen_Feet]

I'm well aware DALY "does not work that way". I still find the coincidence funny. You see, I was hoping Guru would present evidence that would shine actual light on the veracity of my argument. Instead, I got one article's worth of insufficient data, and two articles explicitly leaving out data that would be useful in examining the subject.

[warty goblin]

Yes. It makes ME feel guilty because I feel like I provoked this, and it was NOT my intent to troll the thread.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

The beautiful thing about this thread is that it trolls itself.

[Wardog]

The beautiful thing about this thread is that it trolls itself.

Also (and to paraphrase Queen Amidala), if we follow this thread thought through to conclusion, it will take us to a place we cannot go.

Perhapse we should turn back to a less controvertial (and political) aspect of the singularity.

[Cikomyr]

Man, I left this thread back in page 4, and never looked back...

what have you done with it?!