My Little Pony LVII: You Must Construct Additional Pinkies!

[CrnivorousMeece]

I just realized that the crowd that gathered outside of Twilight's Library in Too Many Pinkies had only two changelings. Progress.

[HamHam]

I entirely disagree.

There are no reasons to think he doesn't, nor, if we want to get down to it, that he is any kind of metaphysical conceptual embodiment (as nowhere in the show canon was that claim made) - and, unless you're saying he isn't sentient at all (and thus not a character, as unreal as a computer program, or as real in-universe to the ponies as Discord the character in an animated cartoon to an outside observer), then it doesn't matter. If he's sentient/sapient, then he damn well does have a choice.

Between that and him being some random chimera-thing that got god like powers for some reason, Occam's razor concludes that Discord being Discord from the beginning of time (or even before) is the simpler explanation. We have no evidence that he was ever not-Discord, we have no other examples of an actual race that looks anything like him, he doesn't even seem to be a biological creature in any sense. It is the simplest explanation given his apparent nature and powers that Discord either has always existed, or came into existence fully formed at some point.

The "embodiment of [concept]" a morale defense doesn't bear ANY weight with me, whether you're talking Discord, the Phoenix, Galactus or anything else you care to mention. If it's sentient/sapient, it has no more excuse than any other sentient creature, regardless of it's origins or physical (or nonphysical) construction. "I'm a creature of [x], I can't help what I am" is as pathetic a cop-out excuse as "I was following orders." If you're sentient, there is ALWAYS a choice. Choose to be Evil, fine - but remember that is it ALWAYS, ALWAYS a choice; barring mind control and complusion (when it genuinely is not you in the driving seat serves you right for not being Undead), there is always a choice not to be a jerk.

But is he? Being able to supply some witty banter is hardly proof of that. A better case would be that at times he seems to indicate that he comprehends, on some level, pony emotions, but I suspect the amount in the episode itself is not conclusive. Basically, Discord may well fail a Turing Test, because it would quickly be obvious that you are talking to a mind that is nonhuman, or nonpony in this case.

A tiger that kills a man is not guilty of murder. By what criteria is Discord more like a man than a tiger? Merely the power of speech? Does it require a capacity for empathy? That he act out of malice? Abstract thought?

[MCerberus]

A tiger that kills a man is not guilty of murder. By what criteria is Discord more like a man than a tiger? Merely the power of speech? Does it require a capacity for empathy? That he act out of malice? Abstract thought?

Discord acted out of malice a plan whose goal was to cause misery to others, particularly Twilight.
So yah.

[SiuiS]

huh... thanks? I didn't think I put my B-day info up in GitP, someponies just have good memories I guess.

Berry in Crystal Empire in the present?
I present:


Applebloom as a crystal pony one thousand year ago, before Sombra showed up.

And there's a crystal Otakuryuga behind her!

I've gotta know who the artist of this animation is, so I can fave it ... that is, if they have a dA account

Animated, and may induce trance-like staring and/or heart attacks

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Dem... Everythings. 8f

Speaking of Christmas traditions, would folks be up for another Secret Santa like last year? 'Cause I'm totally up for organizing that again.

DO IT

If pinkie pie heard this: Do not run, we are your friends!

And saw this...:

...running toward her with arms "apparently" ready for hugs, what would happen?

They're about to blow themselves up.

They would detonate. There would be a black cloud that clears. Pibkie would be covered in soot, blink. Giggle. Make a quip. Next scene.

I entirely disagree.

There are no reasons to think he doesn't, nor, if we want to get down to it, that he is any kind of metaphysical conceptual embodiment (as nowhere in the show canon was that claim made)

Yes it was. He is a spirit of disharmony. All understandings of spirits involve them being constructed of their base natures; discord is disharmonious. Being orderly would be like a poison to his soul (metaphorically, being a spirit he is on the same level as, and does not possess, a soul). This doesn't relieve him of blame for his actions, as a spirit can change its polarity. It does mean that if he is chaotic he is 100% chaotic though.

Anyway, our first day of Hearth's Warming is dedicated to our favorite foxy fellow, Raz_Fox!*

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Oh I know of a fox, from a faraway place
Where the caravan camels rule
Who will kidnap and lie
But then complain moan and cry
He's crazy, but he's also cool

If you have an orange mane
And you wear a gray mask
You're in for a terrible fright!
Run away
Bolt and flee
Watch close, or you may be
In another Razfoxian plight

Razfoxian plights
Like Razfoxian dates
More often than not
Are hotter than hot
In a lot of good ways

Razfoxian plights
Near Razfoxian swoons
A Mask off her guard
Could be veiled and marred
Out there on the- *Bang* "Mask will be mine!"

Oh, and I'm a halfling now, so that's cool.

*Favorite may or may not actually mean favorite. A different foxy Ponythread member may also be favorite.

I cannot hug you enough, but we are going to try.

BORIS! BORIS! BORIS! BORIS! ETC.!
Get him!

I'm curious, how would you view the argument that Discord isn't "Evil" for the same reasons that Cthulu or the other Lovecraftian Elder Evils aren't "Evil", i.e. that Discord's mindset is simply too far removed from our own for the term to have any meaning?
To me, Discord is a primal spirit of chaos, and is thus wholly amoral; he doesn't care that ponies suffer for the sake of his fun any more than we particularly care that faceless NPCs in a videogame suffer for our enjoyment.

Cthulhu is totally evil. Ignorance stops being a valid defense when you're no longer ignorant. Cthulhu doesn't care about humanity, but he knows it exists. That the entire premise; everything out there is terrible, horrible, evil. All good things were made up by mankind to make them feel better. Only evil and indifference exist.

Hmm what do you think of sort of a God Domain restriction on free will? For example Discord would be compelled to create Chaos even if he didn't want to. (He does but that isn't the point.) and he can't do actions that don't create Chaos. Now there is a work around in that he could convince himself that taking an orderly action now leads to more Chaos later but essentially he has to fulfill his 'role' and doing so gives him an immense feeling of satisfaction and joy.

Poppycock and a fallacious argument. Discord is compelled by his own nature to be a dink. He's not a slave to himself.

A tiger that kills a man is not guilty of murder. By what criteria is Discord more like a man than a tiger? Merely the power of speech? Does it require a capacity for empathy? That he act out of malice? Abstract thought?

That's because killing isn't murder. Killin with malice is murder. Killing is strictly the ending Of another lifespan. Assuming that killing and murder are the same because murder contains killing is as much folly as assuming a human and a molecule are the same because a human contains molecules. One is more complex than the other. Murder involves killing, but it also involves other factors which are implicit in murder (since a murder is a murder, duh) but that are neither implicit nor explicit in 'killing'. A murder is always a killing. A killing is not always murder.

A tiger hunting prey is at just as much risk as the prey. It's a ritual which involves mutual respect and acknowledgement that each will do everything in heir power to win. A lion has respect in a baroque sense for an antelope, understands that an antelope is often faster and has sharp bits that can end it. An antelope understands that by going near a lion, it risks being there when the lion is hungry. Both are at peace with this.

A lion that kills a cub of another lion to help it's genes is committing murder. Neither the cub, nor mother nor other papa lion are okay with it. There is no mutuality to the equation. Animals are capable of murder, even in a very abstract sense.

[Tiki Snakes]

Both are at peace with this.

That's... an interesting assertion.

[Kd7sov]

That's... an interesting assertion.

All understandings of spirits involve them being constructed of their base natures; discord is disharmonious. Being orderly would be like a poison to his soul (metaphorically, being a spirit he is on the same level as, and does not possess, a soul). This doesn't relieve him of blame for his actions, as a spirit can change its polarity. It does mean that if he is chaotic he is 100% chaotic though.

As is this. To say much would be against board rules, but the understanding of spirits that I (and, if I'm recalling attributions correctly, Balmas) have doesn't match your description very well.

In pony, I mentioned after the S3 opener that it was my brother's introduction to the series, but I didn't know how effective it would turn out to be. Seems it was pretty good; he returned for last week's and has now watched up through Sisterhooves Social.

[Anarion]

Bah, crazy Thanksgiving vacation schedule. I won't have time to watch ponies tomorrow until way late in the day. The thread is going to be so massive.

The following non-spoiler link will lead to an unpreventable case of the "d'awwww's" and goofy smiles for a minimum of ten minutes. You have been warned. And for those curious, yes, the mod is making a legit proposal here. And she said yes. :3

That was heartwarming. Just completely heartwarming.

Happy Birthdays to both Deadly and Kairaven!

Happy belated birthdays to both Deadly (even though I got you in another thread) and Kairaven!

What's this? Deadly seems to have already created a happy birthday picture. How appropriate.

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In my headcanon, Nightmare Moon was a corrupting influence from outside, but Luna had to be open to hatred and anger for just an instant to accept it into her.
Discord I always wanted to be like Q, while the show made him worse. So I'd portray him as chaotic neutral, rather than chaotic evil. My Discord is kind of a joke, but everything he does is for the luls.
...I also like DiscordCelestia, but I don't woobify him about it.
Chrysalis is Neutral Orange. She eats love cause that's what changelings do. I view her sort of as a Queen of Blades, really. (shrug)
Sombra I don't think I have a headcanon for. There's not really any hints of woobie there to magnify.

Given that the opening sequence describes Luna as becoming jealous and then becoming NMM, I'd say I agree with this headcanon in part. I'm not sure whether it was outside or not, I'm ambivalent on the idea, but Luna definitely had to open herself up to it somehow, and it's another example of how harmony/disharmony play an active and important role in the MLPverse.

I see Discord as worse than Q since he actively encourages suffering for his enjoyment, but also basically mortal in his perceptions. He's a crazy super-power god, but I don't think he's beyond our understanding, he's just a big jerk.

I do see Chrysalis as evil. I think she understands enough that even if her people need love to live, they could have formed a safe symbiosis that didn't mindwipe anypony. Her invasion demonstrates her willingness to cause harm to others for her personal gain. Not to mention she goes out of her way to mess with Twilight and then taunt her.

Guys, I have a friend who wants to see one episode to see what the fuss is all about, which one do you suggest? I am thinkig the Return of Disharmony; but I am not sure.

My standard starting choice is Fall Weather Friends. Good action, clear slice of life (so you don't set up unreasonable expectations), shows the weird magic of how the seasons function, has a couple good jokes such as Twilight's racing number and the cartoony racing cheats.

Damn straight!

Besides, on checking out at least the comic link, that fellow is shamefully trying to avenge humanity or something! Hah! If Princess C was instrumental in wiping humanity out, I'd shake her by the hoof (and I might EVEN turn my Con-Drain off for it) and give her a medal!

"Peace", "freedom" and "justice!" Pah. What sad way to run and empire!

Expected. Though you'd really turn off the con drain and miss the chance to give Celestia the old "Lich buzzer hoofshake" gag? That seems like such a rare opportunity.

I entirely disagree.

There are no reasons to think he doesn't, nor, if we want to get down to it, that he is any kind of metaphysical conceptual embodiment (as nowhere in the show canon was that claim made) - and, unless you're saying he isn't sentient at all (and thus not a character, as unreal as a computer program, or as real in-universe to the ponies as Discord the character in an animated cartoon to an outside observer), then it doesn't matter. If he's sentient/sapient, then he damn well does have a choice.

I think that Discord is is more Evil than Q, and Q arguably started out pretty Evil and only mellowed fractionally by the end of Voyager. You can argue with me that you don't think Discord (or Q for that matter) is evil, but not by saying he's not responscible for his own actions.

The "embodiment of [concept]" a morale defense doesn't bear ANY weight with me, whether you're talking Discord, the Phoenix, Galactus or anything else you care to mention. If it's sentient/sapient, it has no more excuse than any other sentient creature, regardless of it's origins or physical (or nonphysical) construction. "I'm a creature of [x], I can't help what I am" is as pathetic a cop-out excuse as "I was following orders." If you're sentient, there is ALWAYS a choice. Choose to be Evil, fine - but remember that is it ALWAYS, ALWAYS a choice; barring mind control and complusion (when it genuinely is not you in the driving seat serves you right for not being Undead), there is always a choice not to be a jerk.

Discord is either:
a) a jerk
b) an Evil jerk
c) not a person or character at all, just a slightly interactive computer programe that is no more alive than Random Goblin #27 (and thus as morally neutrally "killed" out of hand, because it is, and never was, even as alive as bacteria)
d) being mind-controlled/irresistably influenced by non-Discord's-personality-and-mind forces and therefore not truly responsible for his own actions.

In the case of d), this is EXACTLY what I'm railing against - it's absolving a character's actions by pushing the responsibility onto something else (be it an outside entity or merely an arbitary set of rules or concepts); almost always for no other reason that that character is funny/cool/whatever and the metaphorical you likes that character, but you can't possibly like a villainous character, can you? So you have to un-villainise them so you can justify liking them "properly." (This also applies to a character's flaws quite frequently in fanfiction, "villainy/Evil" is just one of the most obvious "flaws" that need to be "corrected" for the character to be "acceptable.")



And of course the near-frequent opposite is good characters (in authority) who are flawed and not perfect (or are too perfect), so they must secretly be villains, obviously. (See Dumbledore in particular.)

Q always was interesting to me because he's clearly a sadist (he gets his kicks from watching others flail around while being mad at him) but he also seems to have good intentions. Revealing the borg, for example, and more generally just never quite being willing to go through with anything bad that he creates. He always ends up teaching a lesson instead and the characters are more wise for having met Q. So he might just be a jerky, but helpful teacher.

Discord, on the other hand, seems pretty clearly evil to me. I didn't even realize this was an issue. Being an embodiment of chaos doesn't remove the fact that the multi-animal hybrid creature we see flying around is pretty clearly intelligent and self-aware. It gets exasperated at times, it experiences pain and pleasure, and it clearly has goals and motivations. He cheats, he causes pretty severe emotional distress, and he creates massive property damage. All for his own pleasure and with no intention of ever ending it had he not been stopped forcibly. How can that be anything other than capital E Evil?

Discussion: what do we really know about Derpy?

We know this mare is often if not permanently wall-eyed
Because of this or additionally, she's sort of a klutz
Yet she's still an entrant in the young flyers competition
She's somehow ended up inside a snowglobe
Timer Turner/Doctor Whooves was seen in her company during H&H day
Derpy may or may not really enjoy muffins
Dinky has been seen in the care of adult ponies that did not include Derpy and has an older sister.
Either the wood was rotting at the town hall or Derpy has a super-strength plot

So... fire some head-canons

If you keep some kind of updated count of everything you get from this such that I can cite it with a single link, I will declare my undying love for you.

[SiuiS]

To say much would be against board rules,

which is why I didn't elaborate. But it benefits from quantity of and quality of belief. There are different systems out there, but when are there not? It's also rooted that if they did have a Tiamat, it would be more Babylonian goddess monster and less D&D dragon.

That's... an interesting assertion.

yes it is. It is a fun framework to use. It's no more accurate than they are mindless beasts, but it also no less accurate. The usual stumbling block is people just don't want to put forth the effort to wrap their noodle around it, assume it must be a thing taken on faith, and then decry it as obviously wrong because they don't get it.

Example: Lion A, and Antelope A. Lion A tries to kill and eat Antelope A. Antelope A freaks the hell out and fights for its life, managing to flee.

Lion A kills and eats Antelope B instead because he's slow and dumb.

Lion A goes to the river to wash down Antelope B.

Antelope A goes to the river to calm its nerves, and sees Lion A. Neither of them really make a fuss; seemingly as far as Antelope A is concerned, it's jut business. No harm, no foul.


And to continue because I found the language funny, I meant respect the same way a human respects a knife. They aren't all "I really like this knife's moral character and life decisions, and I have to say I also like the way he voted. I would totally be okay with knife hooking up with my daughter", No. They are all "That knife is sharp and will probably cut the bejeezus out of me. I had better show it respect by not treating it in a manner that is sloppy, irreverent and or harmful to my fleshy tissues".

Likewise, a lion doesn't just mosey up to an antelope. A lion thinks "that tasty food over there has some sharp knobby hits and it likes throwing them at me. I should avoid those because bad things happen if I don't.". The lion doesn't decide that maybe the food isn't playing hard to get and no means no regardless of what lion's dad told him of his old days back at college. That's just silly.

[HamHam]

Discord acted out of malice a plan whose goal was to cause misery to others, particularly Twilight.
So yah.

Doesn't seem to me like he cares about Twilight's misery except in so far as it prevents her from stopping him. The fact that not everypony understands how much fun chaos is seems almost like something he is resigned to and has stopped trying to understand. To him, order is what is unnatural and harmful. Celestia turned him to stone for a thousand years and he seems to bear no particular grudge, he just doesn't want it happening again.

[Raz_Fox]

Personally, my favorite mane six ship is PinkieDash, though that's probably because it was the first ship I was exposed to. Also, because it would result in terrifying chaos.

Anyway, our first day of Hearth's Warming is dedicated to our favorite foxy fellow, Raz_Fox!*

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Oh I know of a fox, from a faraway place
Where the caravan camels rule
Who will kidnap and lie
But then complain moan and cry
He's crazy, but he's also cool

If you have an orange mane
And you wear a gray mask
You're in for a terrible fright!
Run away
Bolt and flee
Watch close, or you may be
In another Razfoxian plight

Razfoxian plights
Like Razfoxian dates
More often than not
Are hotter than hot
In a lot of good ways

Razfoxian plights
Near Razfoxian swoons
A Mask off her guard
Could be veiled and marred
Out there on the- *Bang* "Mask will be mine!"

Oh, and I'm a halfling now, so that's cool.

*Favorite may or may not actually mean favorite. A different foxy Ponythread member may also be favorite.

You are a beautiful, beautiful person. Although I do hope you meant 'barred' rather than 'marred'; I'm not that evil, just a too-honest lying scoundrel with a tendency to chase after mares because I started chasing after them just because.

Now get back here, I think I have a veil in your size.

Marneus Calgar vs Princess Celestia
-Which of these scrappy are more hateful?
Marneus- Mary Sue Papa Smurf
Celestia- supposed Tyrant, troll, and useless
Edit: When I think about Humans in Ponyland, I think G1 explained, deconstruct and reconstruct it.
-We have bad people like the Witches and others.
- We also have good people, like Megan and her siblings though she look more like mighty human since ponies are dumb.
- We had humans that are simply misunderstood, like a squire who attacked spike by mistake that he is evil.

Celestia isn't a tyrant, isn't a troll, isn't useless, and is only a Scrappy in obscure Finnish-Italian dictionaries.

[Anarion]

That's because killing isn't murder. Killin with malice is murder. Killing is strictly the ending Of another lifespan. Assuming that killing and murder are the same because murder contains killing is as much folly as assuming a human and a molecule are the same because a human contains molecules. One is more complex than the other. Murder involves killing, but it also involves other factors which are implicit in murder (since a murder is a murder, duh) but that are neither implicit nor explicit in 'killing'. A murder is always a killing. A killing is not always murder.

To further clarify this: killing is a descriptive word. It only requires a physical action. A killed B means A caused the death of B in some manner.

Murder requires two separate things: a physical action and a mental state. The mental state is malice, which is bloody hard to define (is it malice if you killed someone by accident while trying to commit a different crime? What about if you tried to hurt them but not kill them and went too far?)

Murder is further subdivided in at least two categories: malice aforethought and not malice aforethought. A.k.a. premeditated or not.

A tiger hunting prey is at just as much risk as the prey. It's a ritual which involves mutual respect and acknowledgement that each will do everything in heir power to win. A lion has respect in a baroque sense for an antelope, understands that an antelope is often faster and has sharp bits that can end it. An antelope understands that by going near a lion, it risks being there when the lion is hungry. Both are at peace with this.

A lion that kills a cub of another lion to help it's genes is committing murder. Neither the cub, nor mother nor other papa lion are okay with it. There is no mutuality to the equation. Animals are capable of murder, even in a very abstract sense.

yes it is. It is a fun framework to use. It's no more accurate than they are mindless beasts, but it also no less accurate. The usual stumbling block is people just don't want to put forth the effort to wrap their noodle around it, assume it must be a thing taken on faith, and then decry it as obviously wrong because they don't get it.

Example: Lion A, and Antelope A. Lion A tries to kill and eat Antelope A. Antelope A freaks the hell out and fights for its life, managing to flee.

Lion A kills and eats Antelope B instead because he's slow and dumb.

Lion A goes to the river to wash down Antelope B.

Antelope A goes to the river to calm its nerves, and sees Lion A. Neither of them really make a fuss; seemingly as far as Antelope A is concerned, it's jut business. No harm, no foul.

I don't think the issue is that it has to be taken on faith as much as it anthropomorphizes the target. It might be right to do that (e.g. I recall hearing about some dolphins that were sadists and scientists were studying their brains to prove that they really were deriving pleasure from intentional infliction of harm on other dolphins). But in most cases, people don't think that human intentions or emotions can be read into animals. Thus, the animal is not seen as making a moral choice because moral choice inherently presupposes the capability of considering and making the choice.



Edit: A couple pony-related items.

Taviliscious: Because you can never have too much licious. Plus *squee* sounds, so much *squee*

And have you ponies heard the song from tomorrow's very special episode? I'm going to be very curious to see what the show does with the topic of bullying. I have some thoughts on it, which I'll spoiler in case you don't care, since it's sometimes a difficult topic.

Anarion's thoughts on bullying

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I suffered a fair bit of bullying when I was younger, and I think a big part of it is that bullies actually get very good at taking advantage of the system. A good bully knows exactly how far to push people without getting directly in trouble and that's why they're so dangerous.

Bad bullies present a different problem: zero tolerance policies at many schools can often mean that anything that gets the police involved can lead directly to expulsion. Especially if the bully is fool enough to bring a weapon onto school grounds (even a Swiss army knife), they're basically out of the system entirely.

I think these are both terrible. If someone is really good at manipulating the system, it's extremely hard to have even the most severe deterrents affect him/her because he/she begin to think he/she's above the rules. If someone sucks at manipulating the system, the last thing you want to do is make him/her into a lifelong pariah. You're just going to kick the person out and put him/her right on the road to being a lifelong criminal.

My opinion about bullying is that addressing it requires an environmental change on a large scale. You need to change an entire school around, educating the teachers, staff, and most importantly students. It needs to be the kind of thing where kids are taught that it's okay to report things and that they should say something whenever they see bullying and never stand for it. And teachers/staff need to be taught to recognize this stuff, especially in a day and age when Facebook and text messages can get people to commit suicide.

[Kindablue]

I really like these episode title cards by jowywhiteh:

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[Pokonic]

Ohmygoshohmygoshohmygosh!

[SiuiS]

I don't think the issue is that it has to be taken on faith as much as it anthropomorphizes the target. It might be right to do that (e.g. I recall hearing about some dolphins that were sadists and scientists were studying their brains to prove that they really were deriving pleasure from intentional infliction of harm on other dolphins). But in most cases, people don't think that human intentions or emotions can be read into animals. Thus, the animal is not seen as making a moral choice because moral choice inherently presupposes the capability of considering and making the choice.

Intention and emotion? I don't see how whether animals being motivated by emotion would be anthropomorphic. But yes, it requires discussing what th mental faculties of animals are. They can make decisions, and in the case of lion A he's basically a cat whose feral and a damn sight bigger. I have no problem extrapolating a housecat onto him.

But really, I was just in a Mood. I did argue that animals are capable of murder and that they engage in ritualistic displays of their history with each other before going to the water cooler to talk about how, yes, Antelope B really was dumb, I mean he didn't thrust his pointy parts at his attacker at all! With Mary a concession to such things as evidence or citations.

[Forum Explorer]

Poppycock and a fallacious argument. Discord is compelled by his own nature to be a dink. He's not a slave to himself.



That's because killing isn't murder. Killin with malice is murder. Killing is strictly the ending Of another lifespan. Assuming that killing and murder are the same because murder contains killing is as much folly as assuming a human and a molecule are the same because a human contains molecules. One is more complex than the other. Murder involves killing, but it also involves other factors which are implicit in murder (since a murder is a murder, duh) but that are neither implicit nor explicit in 'killing'. A murder is always a killing. A killing is not always murder.

A tiger hunting prey is at just as much risk as the prey. It's a ritual which involves mutual respect and acknowledgement that each will do everything in heir power to win. A lion has respect in a baroque sense for an antelope, understands that an antelope is often faster and has sharp bits that can end it. An antelope understands that by going near a lion, it risks being there when the lion is hungry. Both are at peace with this.

A lion that kills a cub of another lion to help it's genes is committing murder. Neither the cub, nor mother nor other papa lion are okay with it. There is no mutuality to the equation. Animals are capable of murder, even in a very abstract sense.

I was actually asking on what his (and by extension everyones) opinion on that trope(?) was. I've seen it used a couple times before and sometimes its done well and sometimes its not. An important thing to note is that if Discord was bound by those rules, he wouldn't care. He revels in his nature and makes no effort to fight it.

Overall is Discord evil? Yes I think so. However he isn't murderous and arguably thinks that what he is doing is both fun and good.

Nitpick on the Lion thing. Other lions don't really care when the male kills another male's cubs.

[ICN]

Happy (somewhat belated) birthday Deadly and Kairaven!

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Nitpick on the Lion thing. Other lions don't really care when the male kills another male's cubs.

Presumably the cubs do.

[Tectonic Robot]

Personally, my favorite mane six ship is PinkieDash, though that's probably because it was the first ship I was exposed to. Also, because it would result in terrifying chaos.

Anyway, our first day of Hearth's Warming is dedicated to our favorite foxy fellow, Raz_Fox!*

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Show

Oh I know of a fox, from a faraway place
Where the caravan camels rule
Who will kidnap and lie
But then complain moan and cry
He's crazy, but he's also cool

If you have an orange mane
And you wear a gray mask
You're in for a terrible fright!
Run away
Bolt and flee
Watch close, or you may be
In another Razfoxian plight

Razfoxian plights
Like Razfoxian dates
More often than not
Are hotter than hot
In a lot of good ways

Razfoxian plights
Near Razfoxian swoons
A Mask off her guard
Could be veiled and marred
Out there on the- *Bang* "Mask will be mine!"

Oh, and I'm a halfling now, so that's cool.

*Favorite may or may not actually mean favorite. A different foxy Ponythread member may also be favorite.

That's beautiful. ;_;

[Thanqol]

Firstly, Mr. AotRS, relevant to your interests:

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Anyway, our first day of Hearth's Warming is dedicated to our favorite foxy fellow, Raz_Fox!*

Spoiler

Show

Oh I know of a fox, from a faraway place
Where the caravan camels rule
Who will kidnap and lie
But then complain moan and cry
He's crazy, but he's also cool

If you have an orange mane
And you wear a gray mask
You're in for a terrible fright!
Run away
Bolt and flee
Watch close, or you may be
In another Razfoxian plight

Razfoxian plights
Like Razfoxian dates
More often than not
Are hotter than hot
In a lot of good ways

Razfoxian plights
Near Razfoxian swoons
A Mask off her guard
Could be veiled and marred
Out there on the- *Bang* "Mask will be mine!"

I make it a policy to never read poetry unless I'm reading it out loud, and when I reached the final line I pounded my desk hard enough to spill my drink.

*Favorite may or may not actually mean favorite. A different foxy Ponythread member may also be favorite.

(Fighting so hard against using this as an avatar)

[SiuiS]

I was actually asking on what his (and by extension everyones) opinion on that trope(?) was. I've seen it used a couple times before and sometimes its done well and sometimes its not. An important thing to note is that if Discord was bound by those rules, he wouldn't care. He revels in his nature and makes no effort to fight it.

Overall is Discord evil? Yes I think so. However he isn't murderous and arguably thinks that what he is doing is both fun and good.

I think over all it's a rather bad trope. There are very few points where it makes sense as anything other that "we wanted to try and wrench some heart strings".

Nitpick on the Lion thing. Other lions don't really care when the male kills another male's cubs.

I had heard otherwise but it's not something I'm like, willing to research or anything.

I make it a policy to never read poetry unless I'm reading it out loud, and when I reached the final line I pounded my desk hard enough to spill my drink.

Sound policy.

I would pay for a recording of that. An hell, you've recorded for less.

[Balmas]

So, been out for a while cuz of university and such.... Also maybe cuz I got bored.

Just wanted to say that this is awesome.

*Goes back to... Somewhere else, maybe?*

Fund it.

So, there's this song* - what do you think?

*Might contain S3 spoilers.

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Well, this could be either really good, or really bad. Judging by the somewhat repetitive nature of the song and the unexplained difference in tone, I'm going to say, "bad."

[Aotrs Commander]

A shame. It's worth noting that he is arguably evil and comes pretty close to ruining the world. Multiple times. The story just focuses on the chaos part of him.

Just not interested in Discord as a character. Small one-shot, maybe, but not something that long.

Compelled by the Universe or whoever created him in the first place? I don't know it varies. Usually it shows up in stories where humans are 'special' because they are the only ones who truly possess free will. Everything else has to play by certain rules that they cannot violate, though they have a bunch of tricks to work around them.

That particular idea, wherever it rears it's ugly head in fiction, I find not merely just bad writing, but outright arrogant bigotry. Humans are NOT Special, and most certainly are not More Special than any other sentient/sapient creature.

Firstly, Mr. AotRS, relevant to your interests:

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Yer about three pages behind, Thanq... We had that discussion on page 9/10...!

Between that and him being some random chimera-thing that got god like powers for some reason, Occam's razor concludes that Discord being Discord from the beginning of time (or even before) is the simpler explanation. We have no evidence that he was ever not-Discord, we have no other examples of an actual race that looks anything like him, he doesn't even seem to be a biological creature in any sense. It is the simplest explanation given his apparent nature and powers that Discord either has always existed, or came into existence fully formed at some point.

Don't buy that at all.

But is he? Being able to supply some witty banter is hardly proof of that. A better case would be that at times he seems to indicate that he comprehends, on some level, pony emotions, but I suspect the amount in the episode itself is not conclusive. Basically, Discord may well fail a Turing Test, because it would quickly be obvious that you are talking to a mind that is nonhuman, or nonpony in this case.

A tiger that kills a man is not guilty of murder. By what criteria is Discord more like a man than a tiger? Merely the power of speech? Does it require a capacity for empathy? That he act out of malice? Abstract thought?

There is no evidence that I've seen that Discord isn't a sentient creature, but is (to borrow Mass Effect terminology) basically a VI; not in the show, nor in any fanon I've ever read. (Personally, I find the idea Discord being nonsentient/sapient as preposterous, as there is exactly as much evidence he's nonsentient/sapient as Celestia. Or Twilight. Or you, or SiuiS or Tara Strong...)

You want to interpret him that way, fine, but recognise you are by far in the minority.



And more broadly, to the debate in general:

Fundementally, at the end of the day, if something commits repeated Evil acts - it doesn't matter to me if it's sentient/sapient or not; it's therefore technically Evil. If it walks like a duck, if it talks like a duck, if it tortures sentient/sapient creatures for (externally percieved) amusement like a duck - the fact it isn't a duck is completely irrelevant, because it's going to get treated as a duck, regardless of it's morals or lack of them.

If you build a nonsentient murder-robot to murder people, it matters not a jot to me whether it is capable of moral decisions or not; it's actions make it Evil (or at the very, very least a hostile/dangerous hazard which requries extermination) and I'll treat it accordingly. And with more efficiency of extermination, as, after all, unlike sentient/sapient creature there's no point showing off or being intimidating. Hell, on a bad day, I consider non-Aotrs Evil to have sacrificed their sentient/sapient privileges by BEING Evil, essentially making it a not-people¹ and treating it with accordingly lethal force.

You put down rogue animals, and you destroy dangerous machinery. If Discord isn't sentient/sapient then it (not he, it) falls into exactly the same category. It's then not a person, so requires no moral consideration or mercy.

Evil does not "deserve" to exist, at the end of the day; what makes me Evil is the fact I know this and do Evil anyway, because I fundementally think I'm more special than any other creature because I'm me and you're all not me.

But put it this way - if I wasn't an Lawful Evil Lich with granduer, if I was "good", I am pretty sure I would be instead be ruthlessly killing every Evil thing I encountered with the same lack of hesitation, pity, remorse or mercy² and permenantly ensuring they cannot commit further Evil. (Whether or not you want to consider that "good" or merely redirecting my Evil to another target would be up for debate, hence the quotation marks.)



¹And, for that matter, as long-time ponythreaders may have noticed, I've even sporadically half-joked that I'M not really a person except by the very broadest of definitions.

²Though not, of course, without situational analysis for (temporary) extenuating circumstances and even then bearing in mind you never leave a live (or Undead) enemy/hostile behind you.

[Forum Explorer]

Just beat Pony Fantasy 6 with no casualties to Discord (not counting the one time he beat me.)

MVP was Fluttershy who duel weilded her top weapons and had the 8 attack relic. One of her weapons gave her 100% counter rate so she was devastating and basically took out the first three layers of Discord.

[DigoDragon]

Bridle Gossip has always been my go-to introduction episode.

The pilot is a pretty good adventure though! That or Dragonshy. Basically the "Lets have an adventure" episodes tend to be pretty good so might as well start at the beginning and go through those.

Random Arts--

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So, there's this song* - what do you think?

*Might contain S3 spoilers.

Hey, is that...

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Is that Derpy with the Doctor in the theatre scene?

So... fire some head-canons

I dunno... my Dery head-canon is pretty boring by comparison. She's got a lazy eye so sometimes she can't see straight and gets klutzy for it... takes care of two young fillies and has a casual relationship with Dr. Hooves/Time Turner.

Just wanted to say that this is awesome.

Eh, its okay. I rather see a steampunk western game of Equestria than a post-holocaust game, but I won't stop anyone who likes this.

I really like these episode title cards by jowywhiteh:

Reminds me of the style Adventure Time uses.

Just beat Pony Fantasy 6 with no casualties to Discord (not counting the one time he beat me.)

MVP was Fluttershy who duel weilded her top weapons and had the 8 attack relic. One of her weapons gave her 100% counter rate so she was devastating and basically took out the first three layers of Discord.

Ooooh nice! In my game I had Fluttershy do a tactical sacrifice so that I would have Twilight join Trixie, Rarity, and Applebloom for the final battle. MVP went to Trixie who had a Gembox/Economizer combo and ensured no one fell to Discord's attacks.

[Trixie]

And have you ponies heard the song from tomorrow's very special episode? I'm going to be very curious to see what the show does with the topic of bullying. I have some thoughts on it, which I'll spoiler in case you don't care, since it's sometimes a difficult topic.

There is only, what, 5 post discussion on that already?

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I would have expected the food to be quadrupedal... Was the cartoon not made but ponies? Maybe relic of the old days?

Also, is it just me, or all of the BS slasher smiles/smirks will be the next thing to do in pony vectors?

Anarion's thoughts on bullying

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I suffered a fair bit of bullying when I was younger, and I think a big part of it is that bullies actually get very good at taking advantage of the system. A good bully knows exactly how far to push people without getting directly in trouble and that's why they're so dangerous.

Bad bullies present a different problem: zero tolerance policies at many schools can often mean that anything that gets the police involved can lead directly to expulsion. Especially if the bully is fool enough to bring a weapon onto school grounds (even a Swiss army knife), they're basically out of the system entirely.

I think these are both terrible. If someone is really good at manipulating the system, it's extremely hard to have even the most severe deterrents affect him/her because he/she begin to think he/she's above the rules. If someone sucks at manipulating the system, the last thing you want to do is make him/her into a lifelong pariah. You're just going to kick the person out and put him/her right on the road to being a lifelong criminal.

My opinion about bullying is that addressing it requires an environmental change on a large scale. You need to change an entire school around, educating the teachers, staff, and most importantly students. It needs to be the kind of thing where kids are taught that it's okay to report things and that they should say something whenever they see bullying and never stand for it. And teachers/staff need to be taught to recognize this stuff, especially in a day and age when Facebook and text messages can get people to commit suicide.

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Yeah, both cases are terrible (though I had school do a good job on a-hole who tried to game the system...) though I can say there was one case where I wouldn't mind someone being expulsed and some specialists taking over - as he was utterly demoralized. In elementary school

But, oh, well, doing something about kid bullies when adults can act like utter a-holes both in RL and internet with no one saying anything about them is hard. Kind of difficult to tell a child to behave when he sees this 'cool' dude behaving worse than school bullies, making him thing such behaviour is okay. Maybe if we dealt with that first...?

Marneus Calgar vs Princess Celestia
-Which of these scrappy are more hateful?

Less 4chan, please

Discussion: what do we really know about Derpy?

We know this mare is often if not permanently wall-eyed
Derpy may or may not really enjoy muffins
Either the wood was rotting at the town hall or Derpy has a super-strength plot

A) Lauren and crew wanted to name her Ditzy Doo, and after that ridiculous debacle I honestly started to prefer this;
B) She has normal eyes in 2 episodes, so not always, maybe she has some sort of therapy?
C) I prefer the pony from better fics, not the only show attempt at show her, and don't get me started on voice
D) Wood probably was comedic effect, or extreme disrepair from lack of funds...?

Hrmm, interesting...

Is it just me though, or do their singing voices sound really different?

Very bad audio encoding - I would honestly do better job in 15 min before sleep...

[Beacon of Chaos]

Twilight by far. She is compatible with nearly everypony which is why her common ship list is:

Twixie, Twilestia, Twiluna, Twinkie, Twibow Dash, BigTwi, Twielee, NightmareLight, RariTwi, TwiSpike ()

Agreed. Rainbow Dash has a higher number of ships altogether, but that's because "Rainbow Dash ships with everything" is a meme at this point.

Personally, my favorite mane six ship is PinkieDash, though that's probably because it was the first ship I was exposed to. Also, because it would result in terrifying chaos.

Anyway, our first day of Hearth's Warming is dedicated to our favorite foxy fellow, Raz_Fox!*

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Oh I know of a fox, from a faraway place
Where the caravan camels rule
Who will kidnap and lie
But then complain moan and cry
He's crazy, but he's also cool

If you have an orange mane
And you wear a gray mask
You're in for a terrible fright!
Run away
Bolt and flee
Watch close, or you may be
In another Razfoxian plight

Razfoxian plights
Like Razfoxian dates
More often than not
Are hotter than hot
In a lot of good ways

Razfoxian plights
Near Razfoxian swoons
A Mask off her guard
Could be veiled and marred
Out there on the- *Bang* "Mask will be mine!"

Oh, and I'm a halfling now, so that's cool.

*Favorite may or may not actually mean favorite. A different foxy Ponythread member may also be favorite.

Wonderful!

So, there's this song* - what do you think?

*Might contain S3 spoilers.

Despite my full-spoiler policy this season I think I might as well wait until the episode airs at this point. Bringing clips out just before the episode seems kinda pointless.

[Newman]

Gentlecolts!

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I feel so happy to be back among you! Gosh, I had forgotten how awesome this forum's interface was. The graphics and atmophere in other places... brr, I'd rather not speak about them.

Say, has anyone here heard about that awesome webcomic called Friendship Is Dragons?

[HamHam]

Don't buy that at all.

Celestia says "Discord is the mischievous spirit of disharmony." That could be a metaphor, but I don't think so. The story she tells is a creation myth, with her and Luna Zeus to Discord's Cronus.

Fundementally, at the end of the day, if something commits repeated Evil acts - it doesn't matter to me if it's sentient/sapient or not; it's therefore technically Evil. If it walks like a duck, if it talks like a duck, if it tortures sentient/sapient creatures for (externally percieved) amusement like a duck - the fact it isn't a duck is completely irrelevant, because it's going to get treated as a duck, regardless of it's morals or lack of them.

It's a fundamental misunderstanding of the situation to rail against the storm or the volcano, or blame the tiger when it eats you. To butcher a lesson from Bakemonogatari, if you make the mistake of treating a spirit like a pony, you will only cause yourself grief.

[Newman]

Celestia says "Discord is the mischievous spirit of disharmony." That could be a metaphor, but I don't think so. The story she tells is a creation myth, with her and Luna Zeus to Discord's Cronus..

No way, he was their dad?

Also, if Discord is the mischievous spirit of disharmony, does that make Loki the lying god of mischief? How would these two interact, I wonder?

It's a fundamental misunderstanding of the situation to rail against the storm or the volcano, or blame the tiger when it eats you. To butcher a lesson from Bakemonogatari, if you make the mistake of treating a spirit like a pony, you will only cause yourself grief

If the volcano takes pleasure in hurting others, then it's an evil volcano. "Sentience" means "having emotions", "sapience" is "having a consciousness". If it's sentient and enjoys hurting others, then sapience has nothing to do with it; they're evil.

[t209]

Watched the new Episode of My Little Pony

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Yes, they made bab seed as a sympathetic character. I think it also deconstruct the "complainer is always wrong" moral that was common in 80s cartoon. I think Wheeler (Captain Planet) and Eric (D&D) is smiling at this.

[Kairaven]

New episode

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Welcome to your pony after-school special (they still have those right? or am I showing my age?)

not a spetacular episode and very predictable, but given the whole attention given to the issue of bullying now-a-days the message and lessson is good for the actual target audience.