Who should be in Smash Bros 4?

[DiscipleofBob]

Either this is a joke or you're doing it wrong. Yes, odds are you're probably going to take a hit or two from Airman, but he's still quite easy. After he crosses the screen, try getting behind him. If you use the Leaf Shield, it should give you enough time to finish him off and even if you just use the Mega Buster, it should give you a few free shots.

Hardest in Megaman 2 goes to Quickman. Quickman is far more random than any other boss in that game... mabye even more random than any other robot master in the entire series... He has a pattern in he will always jump and throw boomerangs and then charge at you, but whether he jumps 1, 2, or 3 times is completely random (he will always throw one less set of boomerangs than the number of jumps) and very hard to dodge regardless. That said, I can still beat him with just the Mega Buster =P

If you're using the Leaf Shield, yes that's pretty much how you have to beat him. But with the Mega Buster he's near impossible because even with those free shots, being forced around the screen plus the tornado spread means you'll likely take more damage than you can dish out.

And yes, the Heat Man puzzle is definitely possible, but there are several points which someone who hasn't done the puzzle before WILL die.

I'd call any boss I can beat with the Mega Buster easy, though Quick Man still does present a challenge. I can beat him with the Mega Buster, but I kind of have to since I use up the Flash Stopper through those damn beam puzzles.

Point is, if you can't beat Air Man with the Mega Buster, and you can't beat Wood Man with the Mega Buster (the Metal Blade helps but not that much), and you can't cross the Heat Man platforming puzzle without assistance, you're stuck. Hence the song.

Just because there are those of us that HAVE beaten these stages doesn't make them easy.

[Sith_Happens]

And why is Jigglypuff stil in SSB?

Jigglypuff kicks butt, don't know where you've been.

[invinible]

Jigglypuff is essentially the unlockable character that if you can't unlock her than you don't declare any of the unlockable characters.

[OracleofWuffing]

Hands down, Megaman would be my first choice for any character. The original one would be the best choice, because it was the one that started it al, on the NES. I do believe that the Battle Network Megaman would actually be easier to develop, with the Battle Chips, that give Megaman swords, hammers, different kind of shots, etc. I mean, the series started, ended and was practically availalbe exclusive on Nintendo. Down-B could be Style Change, which changes his Neutal-B and Side-B moves? If the Final Smash is still present (and they better...), HubStyle?

I kinda had a thought in my head that Lan would be the actual character but Mega Man the actual combatant, a la Pokemon Trainer. Something like, you'd Down-B to have Lan slot in chips, which are all your other B moves. If you use too many B attacks between slotting in, they start doing less damage. Then, if you slot in too frequently, you'll run out of chips for some time. Of course, it's far too complicated to actually implement, the series is over anyways, and then they probably want to keep Pokemon Trainer as the only character who lets his brethren fight for him.
While HubStyle's plot-powerful, I think Beasting Out would be more akin to how flashy Final Smashes try to be. Or, perhaps one of the fancier PAs, like Double Hero, Dark Messiah, Master Cross, Sun and Moon (better yet, Anger Impact. Who cares if it's not one of Mega Man's actual attacks? Works for Ness.), or Twin Leaders. Or Gater.

Actually, since I'm talking about Battle Network, how about that Solar Boy kid? I betcha if he had a video game series of his own, he could make a good fighter in Smash Bros. Yes, I am making a joke about how badly the Boktai series has been treated.

They could also stick to Zero, either the original or the MMZ Zero (also exclusively on Nintendo minor cameos not included

Final Smash: WhatAmIFightingFor!?

In other subseries, hasn't Tronn Bonne already been in a fighting game or two already?

Zelda wears her aLttP dress or the cape from TP.

You know, I'm pretty certain the dress she wore in the Instruction Manual for that game was blue.

If you're using the Leaf Shield, yes that's pretty much how you have to beat him. But with the Mega Buster he's near impossible because even with those free shots, being forced around the screen plus the tornado spread means you'll likely take more damage than you can dish out.

Personally, I find killing Air Man with the buster much more elegant than killing him with the Leaf Shield. It doesn't get caught up and deflected by the tornadoes as easily as the Leaf Shield, so you can always keep hammering away at him. He takes more damage from the Mega Buster than the typical comical relief first boss and Metal Man, and takes the same damage as Quick Man does. Plus, like, we all played Mega Man 1 before, and Air Man ain't got nothin' on Yellow Devil. Unless you did the pause trick to nigh-one-shot Yellow Devil. Being forced around the screen is a good thing, that's the best place to stand to react to the tornadoes.

Yeah, I've been doing Air Man first the last four or five times I've played. It's fun to have Item 2 that early on to fast forward a couple of parts- speedrunners prioritize him early, too, unless they're using glitches to go even faster than Item 2. You want a real challenge? Try beating him with Luigi.

Regardless, yes, it is a catchy song and Air Man's invincibility should be exaggerated just to preserve the meme. I... Admittedly would have posted the statement if someone hadn't already.

[DiscipleofBob]

Personally, I find killing Air Man with the buster much more elegant than killing him with the Leaf Shield. It doesn't get caught up and deflected by the tornadoes as easily as the Leaf Shield, so you can always keep hammering away at him. He takes more damage from the Mega Buster than the typical comical relief first boss and Metal Man, and takes the same damage as Quick Man does. Plus, like, we all played Mega Man 1 before, and Air Man ain't got nothin' on Yellow Devil. Unless you did the pause trick to nigh-one-shot Yellow Devil. Being forced around the screen is a good thing, that's the best place to stand to react to the tornadoes.

Yeah, I've been doing Air Man first the last four or five times I've played. It's fun to have Item 2 that early on to fast forward a couple of parts- speedrunners prioritize him early, too, unless they're using glitches to go even faster than Item 2. You want a real challenge? Try beating him with Luigi.

Regardless, yes, it is a catchy song and Air Man's invincibility should be exaggerated just to preserve the meme. I... Admittedly would have posted the statement if someone hadn't already.

Everytime I fight Air Man, the tornado's spread to somehow catch the Mega Buster each time, and the delay between the tornado spread is so short it's not enough time for a single Mega Buster shot to get across the room.

And the short time you get after he jumps doesn't give me nearly as much damage as it does when he inevitably blows me (haw!) into him.

Maybe it's bad luck or maybe I just suck.

Then again, I've never had trouble with Yellow Devil as the jumping pattern is pretty easy and consistent. I had a lot more trouble with his stage than I did the actual boss.

[INoKnowNames]

I remember having this conversation back when I had enough free time to Brawl again.... I'd like to do that again, and wouldn't mind reviving that thread that had some of the friends codes in it already, if anyone else wanted to get back into it.

I saw some discussion about Shadow the Hedgehog earlier. Having helped my cousin play that game again, I feel like revisiting that part of the discussion.

Why does Shadow need a Gun? He used in his game, yes, but he's the Ultimate Life Form based on the Legends of Super Sonic. He doesn't need a Gun. He can just pick it up if he wants it so dang bad. Overall, his fighting style revolves around his brutal kicks, rather than full body assaults and punching like Sonic. Shadow's too cool to get his hands that dirty.

B Attack: Homing Attack. Because, let's face it, first impression will be that he's a Clone, and that's one of the new iconic moves that the modern characters share.

Side B: Chaos Spear. Shadow's Projectile, with the ability to slightly charge it while moving forward or backwards. Uncharged shots do 0 knock back but can be spammed relatively quickly, while the fully charged ones take a few seconds to go but can be used to kill. Shadow can't jump while charging the Chaos Spear.

Up B: Chaos Control. Shadow's recovery move, and a more powerful fusion of Pikachu's Quick Attack and Mewtwo's Teleport. Shadow's proficiency with the Chaos Control technique should mean he of all people deserves multiple bursts with it. Possibly up to 3 different warps, based on how you perform it, controlled like the Quick Attack. Naturally, Shadow will have to be very light for having such a good recovery.

Down B: Chaos Blast. Think Eruption, except it takes longer to charge, and releases an energy wave, rather than a split second explosion.

Bonus Move 1: Hover (hold the Jump button). Because those Hoverskates need to be used for something, and that would be awesome as heck.

Bonus Move 2: Chaos Control (grab). Shadow pulls out a Chaos Emerald infront of himself and stuns the person infront of him. From there, he can use the emerald to shock the target as his pummel. Teleport above them and drop kick down for his down throw, setting up for a Smash. Teleport behind them and roundhouse kick them away for his backwards throw. Teleport behind them, grab and immediately throw them behind himself for his forward throw, and finally backward-flip-kick for his up throw, nailing targets right on the jaw.

Final Smash: Super Shadow. Why the -heck- should Sonic be the only Super Hedgehog? And his quotes... "BEHOLD, THE ULTIMATE POWER!" Shadow gains the ability to float and control his position in mid air, his Chaos Spear auto-charges, Chaos Blast takes 1/3rd of the time to charge, and he can spam Chaos Control (recovery) to reach wherver he wants to in the stage. Less focus on crazy smashing back and forth on the screen like his blue blur rival, and more focus on controling that chaotic power! I'd lock him out of all of his other moves, because that's all he does in his boss fights as Super Shadow, and that's all he needs.

Thoughts?

Megaman does need more love... but Capcom doesn't need more money.

Still, if I had to pick, I might fight to see .exe playable... you'd probably have an easier time coming up with a decent move list for normals and specials with Exe than with Classic or X... though X is awesome and Classic is... well, Classic.

[Prime32]

Thoughts?

My thumbs are vertically aligned, and placed above the rest of my hands.

(Super Shadow would still be invincible, right?)

[Geno9999]

Why does Shadow need a Gun? He used in his game, yes, but he's the Ultimate Life Form based on the Legends of Super Sonic. He doesn't need a Gun. He can just pick it up if he wants it so dang bad. Overall, his fighting style revolves around his brutal kicks, rather than full body assaults and punching like Sonic. Shadow's too cool to get his hands that dirty.

Besides, if people really want him to use a gun in Smash Bros, just have him pick up the ray gun or the super scope. Problem solved.


Thoughts for Mega Man.exe moves:

Normal B: Mega Buster- More or less Samus's normal B move. Nothing too special, though probably less powerful and flies faster.

Down B: Battlechip In!- Lan inserts a random battlechip into his PET. This determines what move Mega Man will use for his side B (see below.) Up to five chips can be inserted at a time, and if a sixth chip is inserted, the first chip is ejected out.

Side B: Battlechip- this move is actually five different moves rolled into one, but is determined entirely by which chips Lan inserts first. Which chip Mega Man will use first and how many he has is displayed above his head, in the same manner from the Battle Network games. Obviously, if there is no chip loaded, Mega Man can't use any of the moves. The chip moves are:
Cannon- Low to Medium damage and little higher knockback, this is basically the quickdraw version of Mega Man's fully charged buster. Good for when other players are keeping you from charging your standard buster.

Sword- This chip is much more powerful than Cannon, but it lacks range, it probably has the same reach as Meta Knight's forward Smash. Still useful for netting KOs.

Minibomb- Imagine Link's down B and subsequent throwing, except that Mega Man throws it at an arc, like in the games. Because of this, Minibomb is more useful as an anti-air attack, since normally it probably would fly over most characters' heads. About the same power as cannon.

Met Guard- A counter move, Mega Man pulls out a giant yellow shield with a green cross on it that protects his front side. If it is hit, it creates a punishing shockwave that travels along the ground. Unfortunately for Mega Man, this has several drawbacks: the first is that it can only cover his front, so unlike other counter moves, he is vulnerable to attacks from behind. Secondly is the fact that his shockwave cannot travel over pits, and doesn't go very high in the first place, so a well timed jump can clear over it.

Recover 20- The rarest of all chips, it is very unlikely that a player would use it more than once in a match. It simply reduces Mega Man's damage by 20%. That's it.

Up B: Teleport- In a beam of light, Mega Man teleports out of danger to safety (i.e. not into the bottomless pits below.) Entirely non-damaging move.

Final Smash: Double Hero- The screen darkens, time stops (with everyone else frozen in place) as ProtoMan.exe teleports next to Mega Man with the words "Double Hero" showing up like in the games. Mega Man and Proto Man start teleporting in front of random players, using Cannon and Sword chips (Mega Man and Proto Man, respectively.) before finally teleporting back to where Mega Man was. However, if the opponent was in the middle of shielding or dodging when the screen darkened, they receive no damage at all.

[DiscipleofBob]

Attempts at some movesets:

Geno - Geno isn't particularly fast, but he's moderately bulky with a lot of projectile attacks. Even some of his smash attacks fire ball bearings or rocket-powered fists, and the ability to string together several projectiles into a combo makes him a dangerous opponent to leave alone.
B: Geno Beam, chargeable blast.
B>: Geno Whirl, press B again to make Geno Whirl flash. If you time it right and the Geno Whirl flashes as it hits someone, the hit becomes critical.
B^: Geno Boost, recovery move, and ups damage of next attack.
Bv: Geno Cannon, Morphs into a cannon, charges, and fires a large mortar blast. Geno reappears where the blast hits.
Smash 1: Geno Flash: Clouds rapidly appear all over the battlefield and blast the ground in multicolored light. Difficult to avoid without concentration.
Smash 2: Geno Star: Geno leaves his puppet body to become his original form of a star spirit, and can fly around the field, like Sonic's Super Sonic or Pikachu's Volt Tackle.

Mallow - Lightweight, but has surprising reach with his physical attacks. His smash attacks include his staff and cymbal weapons.
B: Thunderbolt - shoots a small volley of lightning bolts. Wide cone in front of Mallow, but only about as much damage as Pikachu's Thundershock.
B>: Shocker - Sends a spark along the ground. If it hits a target, a large thunderbolt pops out of the ground to hit the opponent.
B^: HP Rain - Creates a small floating cloud which heals some minor damage, but more importantly Mallow grabs it as it floats up for a recovery move.
Bv: Snowy - Mallow turns into a snowman, and anyone who touches him gets damaged and frozen
Smash 1: Star Rain - Basically Starfall with large and small projectiles.
Smash 2: Rainstorm - Mallow starts crying and fills the screen with heavy rain. The rain reduces friction for other players making it slippery, the wind constantly threatens to push them off the stage, and occasional lightning bolts threaten to damage them.

Yes, there are 2 Final Smashes. Yes, I would give all the existing characters a second Final Smash, trying to follow the theme of one attack-based Final Smash (like Mario or Link) and one transformation-based Final Smash (like Bowser or Sonic).

[INoKnowNames]

My thumbs are vertically aligned, and placed above the rest of my hands.

(Super Shadow would still be invincible, right?)

... Why -wouldn't- Super Shadow be Invincible? Shadow Himself is only killable due to Gameplay and Story Segregation; otherwise he's probably one of the single most overpowered characters you can play as in Nintendo History! Besides maybe Samus Aran...

Besides, if people really want him to use a gun in Smash Bros, just have him pick up the ray gun or the super scope. Problem solved.

I find it amusing how you quoted what I said and said the exact same thing with more words. :p

Thoughts for Mega Man.exe moves:

Normal B: Mega Buster- More or less Samus's normal B move. Nothing too special, though probably less powerful and flies faster.

Agreed.

Down B: Battlechip In!- Lan inserts a random battlechip into his PET. This determines what move Mega Man will use for his side B (see below.) Up to five chips can be inserted at a time, and if a sixth chip is inserted, the first chip is ejected out.

Side B: Battlechip- this move is actually five different moves rolled into one, but is determined entirely by which chips Lan inserts first. Which chip Mega Man will use first and how many he has is displayed above his head, in the same manner from the Battle Network games. Obviously, if there is no chip loaded, Mega Man can't use any of the moves. The chip moves are:
Cannon- Low to Medium damage and little higher knockback, this is basically the quickdraw version of Mega Man's fully charged buster. Good for when other players are keeping you from charging your standard buster.

Sword- This chip is much more powerful than Cannon, but it lacks range, it probably has the same reach as Meta Knight's forward Smash. Still useful for netting KOs.

Minibomb- Imagine Link's down B and subsequent throwing, except that Mega Man throws it at an arc, like in the games. Because of this, Minibomb is more useful as an anti-air attack, since normally it probably would fly over most characters' heads. About the same power as cannon.

Met Guard- A counter move, Mega Man pulls out a giant yellow shield with a green cross on it that protects his front side. If it is hit, it creates a punishing shockwave that travels along the ground. Unfortunately for Mega Man, this has several drawbacks: the first is that it can only cover his front, so unlike other counter moves, he is vulnerable to attacks from behind. Secondly is the fact that his shockwave cannot travel over pits, and doesn't go very high in the first place, so a well timed jump can clear over it.

Recover 20- The rarest of all chips, it is very unlikely that a player would use it more than once in a match. It simply reduces Mega Man's damage by 20%. That's it.

Up B: Teleport- In a beam of light, Mega Man teleports out of danger to safety (i.e. not into the bottomless pits below.) Entirely non-damaging move.

I'm not entirely sure about these, though. Mostly because I thought of him using most of his Chips as his regular attacks, a bit like Mr. Game and Watch. Like his Side Smash being his Sword (uncharged produces a Cyber, slightly produces a Wide Sword (being slightly longer), and fully charged produces Long Sword (the biggest, longest, and hardest hitting), and his Down Aerial having him make a Quake chip appear for a moment.

Furthermore, I'd like to see a Special giving him Style Changes, changing the elemental properties of some of his attacks, making some moves stronger and some moves weaker, and adding elements to other attacks. Slight color scheme change, too, though only enough to acknowledge his change, since we still gotta think about team battles.

Not bad, though.

Final Smash: Double Hero- The screen darkens, time stops (with everyone else frozen in place) as ProtoMan.exe teleports next to Mega Man with the words "Double Hero" showing up like in the games. Mega Man and Proto Man start teleporting in front of random players, using Cannon and Sword chips (Mega Man and Proto Man, respectively.) before finally teleporting back to where Mega Man was. However, if the opponent was in the middle of shielding or dodging when the screen darkened, they receive no damage at all.

Hm... A bit hard to hit with, but effective when it does... Though, didn't the actual Double Hero have them do a barrage of fire covering the entire field in front of them, rather than teleporting around? Though either way, it'd still be cool and interesting.

Attempts at some movesets:

Geno - Geno isn't particularly fast, but he's moderately bulky *snip*

I find that hilarious, since the actual Geno had less health than Princess Peach and Mallow did, but did more damage than Bowser did, and moved faster than everyone else in the party entirely.

Even some of his smash attacks fire ball bearings or rocket-powered fists, and the ability to string together several projectiles into a combo makes him a dangerous opponent to leave alone.

This, however, gets all my wants.

B>: Geno Whirl, press B again to make Geno Whirl flash. If you time it right and the Geno Whirl flashes as it hits someone, the hit becomes critical.

Hm... If Geno just releases it, or mistimes it, it does damage but does no knock back. And he's vulnerable while throwing it. If he holds B after the Whirl, but then releases it just before it hits the target, it does damage and smash akin to Jigglypuff's Rest attack. That'd be awesome...

B^: Geno Boost, recovery move, and ups damage of next attack.

Despite the fact that it has the word Boost in it, I don't think Geno Boost functions as a "get back onto the stage" attack. In fact, I'd sooner put the Geno Blast here, having him launch a barrage of light below himself to propel himself into the air. I'd use Geno Boost as his Down Smash, giving him temporary Knock Back Resistance and refreshing his attacks no matter how much he's spammed them.

Bv: Geno Cannon, Morphs into a cannon, charges, and fires a large mortar blast. Geno reappears where the blast hits.

And this, by which you mean the Geno Flash, should definitely be his Final Smash. Big, scary, and awesome. Nothing else could compare, really.

*final smashes*

While cute, Geno couldn't actually do anything while in Star Form, which is why he brought the doll to life in the first place. Also, sooner use Geno Blast for his recovery.

Mallow - Lightweight, but has surprising reach with his physical attacks. His smash attacks include his staff and cymbal weapons.

Maybe Mallow's punching attacks need to be used wisely, since he does more damage at the edge of his stretchy little fists than the arm, like Marth does with the tip of his sword, and Krystal with her staff (see below).

B: Thunderbolt - shoots a small volley of lightning bolts. Wide cone in front of Mallow, but only about as much damage as Pikachu's Thundershock.

I'm not sure if I can entirely see what you're trying to describe...

B>: Shocker - Sends a spark along the ground. If it hits a target, a large thunderbolt pops out of the ground to hit the opponent.

B^: HP Rain - Creates a small floating cloud which heals some minor damage, but more importantly Mallow grabs it as it floats up for a recovery move.

Want. Shocker seems a bit too expectable, but would make a Great Finishing Move, and HP Rain should be like R.O.B.'s recovery, as to not be spammable. But both sound good.

Bv: Snowy - Mallow turns into a snowman, and anyone who touches him gets damaged and frozen

Maybe if he's spammed it, it wouldn't be as big, like Wario's Wario Waft. Save it and bust out the Gas/Snow!

Smash 1: Star Rain - Basically Starfall with large and small projectiles.

Starfall? Dissidia's Emperor's Starfall HP Attack? Or Ness and Lucas' PK Star Storm? I'd prefer the former, actually. Gets much closer to a gigantic bouncing Star Attack.... heh, that'd be awesome to see.

Smash 2: Rainstorm - Mallow starts crying and fills the screen with heavy rain. The rain reduces friction for other players making it slippery, the wind constantly threatens to push them off the stage, and occasional lightning bolts threaten to damage them.

.... proceed.

Yes, there are 2 Final Smashes. Yes, I would give all the existing characters a second Final Smash, trying to follow the theme of one attack-based Final Smash (like Mario or Link) and one transformation-based Final Smash (like Bowser or Sonic).

How would people choose between Final Smashes? And some characters don't necessarily fit some types of Final Smashes (what's the Space Animals gonna do for their non-transformation attacks without seeming more like clones of each other, and what's, say, Lucario going to do for his transformation?).

Speaking of which, the Space Animals need fixing. Well, some fixing, anyway. To be honest, Fox, Falco and Wolf don't have that many key similarities, as any semi pro player might tell you. They share a few special attacks, but otherwise aren't all that cloney. Each one handles quite differently. Differentiate Fox and Falco's Illusions by timing of how the attack works (making maybe one appear before the attack hits like a flash step like affect, and the other have the illusion appear before they move like a phantom), and maybe do something to switch up Fox and Wolf's Reflectors, and they would be pretty much fine for their main movesets.

Sharing Final Smashes, however, is a grievous sin. Falco needs the Arwing to fly in, as they do on Corneria and Lylat Cruise. As for Wolf, he might get the Wolfen and attack from a different angle, or maybe call in Leon and Panther to attack while he fights. It'd be hilarious to take him out while they're talking to him, especially by Fox, Falco or Krystal.

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And speaking of which, Krystal totally needs to be in. Space Bikini optional, but she'd be fighting with her awesome Staff. About as light as Fox, if not lighter, and focusing on sweat-spot hits with the end of her Staff, a bit like Marth and his swordsmanship.

Krystal's special attacks require Magic, so she can't spam them too badly without some cool down.

B Attack: Ice Blaster. Excellent Shield breaking attack, does damage in a mist to the target in front of them, potentially stunning them if caught in it too long. I see it a bit like Bowser's Flame Breath.

Side B: Fire Blaster. Ranged Projectile, decent (but not too high) kick, coming out and moving at a -VERY- fast speed for a damaging projectile, angle able slightly up or down.

Up B: Rocket Boost. Pretty much just like the actual game's, without the location limitation.

Down B: Ground Quake. Like the game. If the Ice Blaster won't stun, this definitely would.

Her standard attacks would be based on the combat styles Fox used in game. Additionally, since the head of the Staff can be opened and used for certain tasks, it could be used for her Grab in SSB4. And her shield would be her Staff's Energy Barrier. Wouldn't shrink, but would dull in color until shattering. ... Maybe it can be used to determine how much Magic she has for her specials....

Final Smash: Portal Opener. A portal appears behind Krystal in the background, and she opens it, causing a Cloud Runner to come out of the rift. She rides it into the foreground, and can then direct it into firing onto those still on the stage. I'd see this move also being how she appears on the stage at the match's beginning.

Hilariously enough, the Sharpclaw Disguise could be one of her taunts.

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... I wonder when we'll get news on a new Super Smash... I miss what they did with updating site information daily on SmashBros. I remember flipping out when I saw Sonic got in.

[Geno9999]

I'm not entirely sure about these, though. Mostly because I thought of him using most of his Chips as his regular attacks, a bit like Mr. Game and Watch. Like his Side Smash being his Sword (uncharged produces a Cyber, slightly produces a Wide Sword (being slightly longer), and fully charged produces Long Sword (the biggest, longest, and hardest hitting), and his Down Aerial having him make a Quake chip appear for a moment.

I've considered that too, like Gut Punch as his Side Smash, or use a Dash chip for his running attack. I sort of tried to go for more of a Pokemon Trainer and Olimar route, to sort of emulate the games.

Furthermore, I'd like to see a Special giving him Style Changes, changing the elemental properties of some of his attacks, making some moves stronger and some moves weaker, and adding elements to other attacks. Slight color scheme change, too, though only enough to acknowledge his change, since we still gotta think about team battles.

Not bad, though.

Yeah that's a good idea, but as you kinda pointed out, it would be hard to differentiate visually what element you're using, unless they use the Navi Crosses from 4, 5, or 6. Personally I would like to see that more than the Style Changes, since that would also be a good way to sneak in cameos of the Classic Mega Man bosses, like Fire Man, Wood Man, etc.

I find that hilarious, since the actual Geno had less health than Princess Peach and Mallow did, but did more damage than Bowser did, and moved faster than everyone else in the party entirely.

Yeah, Geno fits more of a Glass Cannon/Fragile Speedster archtype. (Fragile Lightning Tank?)
Though as a Counter-point, Ike in Smash Bros is kinda slow (fast for his weight though), while in Path of Radiance and Radiant Dawn, he is fast, hits hard, and has high defense at later levels.

[DiscipleofBob]

I find that hilarious, since the actual Geno had less health than Princess Peach and Mallow did, but did more damage than Bowser did, and moved faster than everyone else in the party entirely.

That's entirely possible. I didn't remember much about the character's in-game stats and was focusing on mainly what I thought an artillery character like this would be like.

Despite the fact that it has the word Boost in it, I don't think Geno Boost functions as a "get back onto the stage" attack. In fact, I'd sooner put the Geno Blast here, having him launch a barrage of light below himself to propel himself into the air. I'd use Geno Boost as his Down Smash, giving him temporary Knock Back Resistance and refreshing his attacks no matter how much he's spammed them.

And this, by which you mean the Geno Flash, should definitely be his Final Smash. Big, scary, and awesome. Nothing else could compare, really.

Geno Flash was the original yes. I did his second-to-last move as the Final Smash because I honestly can't picture Geno Blast as a regular move, but I can see the Geno Flash being turned into a regular, but potentially devastating attack.

While cute, Geno couldn't actually do anything while in Star Form, which is why he brought the doll to life in the first place. Also, sooner use Geno Blast for his recovery.

Yeah, he doesn't do anything in Star Form in the game, but SSB is all about taking liberties with the character, and I wanted to see if I could keep with my 2 Final Smash abilities of one being a big huge attack and one being closer to a transformation (obviously I haven't gotten that far).

I'm not sure if I can entirely see what you're trying to describe...

I'm struggling to think of a good in-game example to describe the area. Bowser's fire breath or (one) Ice Climber's Blizzard attack, only lightning maybe?

Starfall? Dissidia's Emperor's Starfall HP Attack? Or Ness and Lucas' PK Star Storm? I'd prefer the former, actually. Gets much closer to a gigantic bouncing Star Attack.... heh, that'd be awesome to see.

I was going with Star Storm, but could work either way.

How would people choose between Final Smashes? And some characters don't necessarily fit some types of Final Smashes (what's the Space Animals gonna do for their non-transformation attacks without seeming more like clones of each other, and what's, say, Lucario going to do for his transformation?).

Probably just a different direction with the joystick, like B^ or Bv to activate the different Final Smash. The Starfox crowd would get their usual Landmaster as the transformaiton, and their other Final Smash would be calling in a teammate like Peppy or Slippy (or Leon or Panther for Wolf) to air strike the arena.

And speaking of which, Krystal totally needs to be in. Space Bikini optional, but she'd be fighting with her awesome Staff. About as light as Fox, if not lighter, and focusing on sweat-spot hits with the end of her Staff, a bit like Marth and his swordsmanship....

I support Krystal being in the game, especially since her staff-play and magic can make her actually unique.



As for other characters' Final Smashes with my idea, here were some other basics:

Mario/Luigi: Invincible Star. They start flashing and become invincible for a short time, but unlike the in-game star they actually damage people by touching them like the traditional games. Alternatively, they could get the star AND don the cape from Super Mario World.

Link: Could transform into the wolf or have Majora's Mask, but part of me thinks that's too game-specific.

DK: Three words: Giant Donkey Kong. Or he could become more like the traditional Donkey Kong and start spamming thrown barrels in either direction.

Samus Aran: She gets the power boost she got during the final boss of the Super Metroid.

Kirby: A lot of his games have a pretty broken final form. One of those could work.

Yoshi: Already has the transformation. The only thing I can think of for the other Final Smash is maybe Baby Mario getting loose and crying everywhere, damaging the screen with sonic attacks.

Fox: See above.

Pikachu: Although the Volt Tackle might already be considered a transformation, I always like the idea of Pikachu temporarily evolving to Raichu.

[RoyVG]

Actually, since I'm talking about Battle Network, how about that Solar Boy kid? I betcha if he had a video game series of his own, he could make a good fighter in Smash Bros. Yes, I am making a joke about how badly the Boktai series has been treated.

At least SOMEONE is acknowledging the existence of those games

You know, I'm pretty certain the dress she wore in the Instruction Manual for that game was blue.

How the heck did I f**k that up soooooooo bad? .

Oh I get it. My image came from the remake on GBA. Still, a version of the pink dress existed around aLttP original release. Basically, they remade most of the artwork.

[Hunter Noventa]

Some moves for KOS-MOS

Normal B: FGSHOT- The Infamous trible-trible-barrelled gatling guns. Kos-Mos roots in place and fires a barrage of bullets, much like Fox's blaster.

Down B: FMSHOT- Kos-mos releases a barrage of missils from her shoulders, perppering the areas immediately to her left and right with explosions.

Side B: R-Cannon- Kos-mos morphs her arm into a cannon, and after a slight charge time, fires what is effectively a hitscan eweapon, in that you have to dodge before it fires, as there is no projectile.

Up B: R-Drill - Kos-mos thrusts upward with a giant drill arm a pierces the heavens anyone unlucky enough to be above her.

Final Smash: X-Buster - Kos-Mos launches into the air, the screen behind going dark and showing a backdrop of space. You have about three seconds to position her freely, sort of like aiming the dragoon, only once she's in position, a massive barrage of lasers launches from her stomach covering a a cone in absolute destruction.

[INoKnowNames]

I've considered that too, like Gut Punch as his Side Smash, or use a Dash chip for his running attack.

That could be part of it.. although I prefer Sword chips for Side Smash. Maybe Gut Punch for Side Regular?

I sort of tried to go for more of a Pokemon Trainer and Olimar route, to sort of emulate the games.

Hm... punching out Lan would be odd, so I wouldn't see him as an Olimar. Though as a -VERY- Meta Pokemon Trainer type, it could work. Though that might be too meta.

Yeah that's a good idea, but as you kinda pointed out, it would be hard to differentiate visually what element you're using, unless they use the Navi Crosses from 4, 5, or 6. Personally I would like to see that more than the Style Changes, since that would also be a good way to sneak in cameos of the Classic Mega Man bosses, like Fire Man, Wood Man, etc.

Hm... the color swaps wouldn't need to be too much, do they? Change only parts of his body to the corresponding element color while in team battle, and do it normally when in regular fights. Though costumes shouldn't take up too much file space...

Yeah, Geno fits more of a Glass Cannon/Fragile Speedster archtype. (Fragile Lightning Tank?)
Though as a Counter-point, Ike in Smash Bros is kinda slow (fast for his weight though), while in Path of Radiance and Radiant Dawn, he is fast, hits hard, and has high defense at later levels.

Well, he hits hard and has high defense in Brawl, too. Maybe the characters that are faster than him would be even faster than him in Radiant Dawn?

That's entirely possible. I didn't remember much about the character's in-game stats and was focusing on mainly what I thought an artillery character like this would be like.

The hardest part about Geno and Megaman would be regulars, in my opinion...

Geno Flash was the original yes. I did his second-to-last move as the Final Smash because I honestly can't picture Geno Blast as a regular move, but I can see the Geno Flash being turned into a regular, but potentially devastating attack.

So turning into a Tank and shooting a Supernova at someone is easier to make as a regular move than dropping a barrage of light at them is? We're sure as heck on two different wavelengths. No opinion on my response (rather than Boost for Recovery, Flash for Down Special, and Blast for Final, Blast for Recovery, Boost for Down Special, and Flash for Final)?

Yeah, he doesn't do anything in Star Form in the game, but SSB is all about taking liberties with the character, and I wanted to see if I could keep with my 2 Final Smash abilities of one being a big huge attack and one being closer to a transformation (obviously I haven't gotten that far).

Most of the liberties with the characters aren't actually all that liberal. Most of the attacks and stuff that they do are consistent with abilities in universe, if not dirrectly tailored to their character. Personally, the most I'd want to see Star Form Geno in is as his Entrance, maybe as a Taunt (twinkling around the doll before going back in), and as one of his exit poses.

I'm struggling to think of a good in-game example to describe the area. Bowser's fire breath or (one) Ice Climber's Blizzard attack, only lightning maybe?

Maybe, but it seems kinda awkward if you ask me.

I was going with Star Storm, but could work either way.

The more distinct each character is from each other, the better, and Final Smashes should be as unique to each character as possible. Personally, I think they could have at least shifted the dirrection either Ness or Lucas' Star Storm comes from to really make it stand out. And the last thing we need is a -3rd- of them. Be as bad as the Land Master trio.

Probably just a different direction with the joystick, like B^ or Bv to activate the different Final Smash. The Starfox crowd would get their usual Landmaster as the transformaiton, and their other Final Smash would be calling in a teammate like Peppy or Slippy (or Leon or Panther for Wolf) to air strike the arena.

So it would lock them out of a different tech, possibly even their recovery move? Honestly, it takes a lot of the Final out of Final Smash to give each character 2. And the last thing the Space Animals need is another set of similar smashes to make them seem even more like clones of each other. I'm against clones. Lots of distinct heroes with different personalities and strengths; no reason to make them pallet swaps of eachother in any sense of the word.

Mario/Luigi: Invincible Star. They start flashing and become invincible for a short time, but unlike the in-game star they actually damage people by touching them like the traditional games. Alternatively, they could get the star AND don the cape from Super Mario World.

Luigi's Negative Zone is practically already a Transformation like Final Smash, given that he basically takes over part of the stage for a good 15 seconds. If we aren't going to give him the Poltergeist to use in his regular moveset (at least as a Grab, if not all the other wonderful things it can do), then it should be in his Final Smash.

Link: Could transform into the wolf or have Majora's Mask, but part of me thinks that's too game-specific.

Personally, I think we could fit up to 3 different Links in the game at one time: Midna (riding Wolf Link and using her Fuzed Shadows as her Final Smash), Young Link from Majora's Mask (using Masks to fight and the Fierce Deity Mask for his Final Smash), and Toon Link, representing the Standard Link and fighting with his basic moveset, armed with the Triforce Slash.

DK: Three words: Giant Donkey Kong. Or he could become more like the traditional Donkey Kong and start spamming thrown barrels in either direction.

Certainly makes using the 75mm stage odd... I wouldn't support Giant Donkey Kong because that's Chunky Kong's ability! He'd be playable as Tiny Kong's Final Smash, since the two go so well together.

Samus Aran: She gets the power boost she got during the final boss of the Super Metroid.

Maybe... though I'd save such a power up for Adam or Ridley's Final Smashes.

Kirby: A lot of his games have a pretty broken final form. One of those could work.

Eh, Star Rod's already in play in the game now. Makes using other such power up items odd if you ask me. What would do for Metaknight and King Dedede?

Yoshi: Already has the transformation. The only thing I can think of for the other Final Smash is maybe Baby Mario getting loose and crying everywhere, damaging the screen with sonic attacks.

Yes, because that's not something people aren't actively trying to repress memories of.

Pikachu: Although the Volt Tackle might already be considered a transformation, I always like the idea of Pikachu temporarily evolving to Raichu.

... I'm honestly trying not to sound so overly negative to your Final Smash suggestions. They're not all bad... but this is the only one that I actively detest for some reason. I'm honestly not sure why, but every fiber of my being says "Hell No".

KOS-MOS

Where is KOS-MOS from? That's certainly an interesting name...

[DiscipleofBob]

So turning into a Tank and shooting a Supernova at someone is easier to make as a regular move than dropping a barrage of light at them is? We're sure as heck on two different wavelengths. No opinion on my response (rather than Boost for Recovery, Flash for Down Special, and Blast for Final, Blast for Recovery, Boost for Down Special, and Flash for Final)?

That was my opinion on your response. If you want more specifics, I just don't see Geno Blast working well as a regular move, but I can see Geno Flash toned down for the game.

Most of the liberties with the characters aren't actually all that liberal. Most of the attacks and stuff that they do are consistent with abilities in universe, if not dirrectly tailored to their character. Personally, the most I'd want to see Star Form Geno in is as his Entrance, maybe as a Taunt (twinkling around the doll before going back in), and as one of his exit poses.

Most of the characters actually have many liberties taken with them. I can't think of a single Starfox game that has any of the Smash characters with their B^, Bv, or B> abilities. Same with Captain Falcon.. And half of the characters could never do half of their regular moveset in their original games.

The more distinct each character is from each other, the better, and Final Smashes should be as unique to each character as possible. Personally, I think they could have at least shifted the dirrection either Ness or Lucas' Star Storm comes from to really make it stand out. And the last thing we need is a -3rd- of them. Be as bad as the Land Master trio.

As much as I don't like three landmasters, I almost think taking away a landmaster at this point is kind of nerfing the character. Hence the difference. And if you really want variation, the Arwings they call down could be based off the specific vehicles from Starfox Armada with very different ammunition types.

So it would lock them out of a different tech, possibly even their recovery move? Honestly, it takes a lot of the Final out of Final Smash to give each character 2. And the last thing the Space Animals need is another set of similar smashes to make them seem even more like clones of each other. I'm against clones. Lots of distinct heroes with different personalities and strengths; no reason to make them pallet swaps of eachother in any sense of the word.

It could just be B^ up on the ground, or just Bv. There are other ways it could work too. Using one of the extraneous buttons, like taunt, for example.

Luigi's Negative Zone is practically already a Transformation like Final Smash, given that he basically takes over part of the stage for a good 15 seconds. If we aren't going to give him the Poltergeist to use in his regular moveset (at least as a Grab, if not all the other wonderful things it can do), then it should be in his Final Smash.

I'd argue in this context that Luigi's Negative Zone wouldn't really qualify as a Transformation smash because, like the Ice Climbers' Final Smash, it just alters the terrain.

And the only reason I didn't mention Fludd or Poltergeist is because I would personally give Mario and Luigi a whole second moveset where they equip/put away the Fludd/Poltergeist as a Down B move, since they already relegated the Mario Cyclone to a physical attack.

I just don't have a specific moveset planned for Fludd-Mario or Vaccuum-Luigi yet.

Personally, I think we could fit up to 3 different Links in the game at one time: Midna (riding Wolf Link and using her Fuzed Shadows as her Final Smash), Young Link from Majora's Mask (using Masks to fight and the Fierce Deity Mask for his Final Smash), and Toon Link, representing the Standard Link and fighting with his basic moveset, armed with the Triforce Slash.

I would be very much against that. I always hated Young Link and Toon Link as the very epitome of the clone-problem in the game.

Certainly makes using the 75mm stage odd... I wouldn't support Giant Donkey Kong because that's Chunky Kong's ability! He'd be playable as Tiny Kong's Final Smash, since the two go so well together.

I only disagree in the sense that I don't really see the DK64 group making the cut as playable. Dixie Kong maybe. And Funky Kong and Cranky Kong would make fun assist trophies, maybe.

Maybe... though I'd save such a power up for Adam or Ridley's Final Smashes.

Don't really see how they would get an ability that was exclusively Samus's. Maybe Ridley could summon Kraid in the background as a Final Smash to knock people around.

Eh, Star Rod's already in play in the game now. Makes using other such power up items odd if you ask me. What would do for Metaknight and King Dedede?

For transformation smashes? Hm... Probably change them into their Kirby Super Star (DS version) ultimate boss forms. Dedede gets his iron mask and giant hammer. I forget the name but there was an uber-Meta Knight boss in the DS version of Kirby Super Star.

Alternatively for Kirby, he could summon one of the pets.

Yes, because that's not something people aren't actively trying to repress memories of.

Mwahahaha

... I'm honestly trying not to sound so overly negative to your Final Smash suggestions. They're not all bad... but this is the only one that I actively detest for some reason. I'm honestly not sure why, but every fiber of my being says "Hell No".

Understandable. We don't have to agree on everything, or even anything for that matter.

Where is KOS-MOS from? That's certainly an interesting name...

Xenosaga. Definitely a third-party character, though I forget which company made those games.

-------------

Alternate proposal from a straight-up Smash Bros game.

Super Smash Bros.

VS

Capcom

Mario VS Mega Man
Donkey Kong VS Haggar
Link VS Dante
Samus Aran VS Morrigan
Little Mac VS Ryu
Pikachu VS something from Monster Hunter

A combination of the platforming combat of Smash Bros with the Tag Team mechanics of the VS Capcom games.

Thoughts?

[Scowling Dragon]

I would like a radically different Pit in the game. The Pit from KIU has a large arsenal of weaponry, and it would be cool if each attack used its own special type of weapon and such.

[Hunter Noventa]

Xenosaga. Definitely a third-party character, though I forget which company made those games.

Bandai Namco published the series, and Monolith Soft made the game. They're the same people who made the pretty successful Xenoblade, but I still think Kos-Mos would be a lot more recognizable, she also showed up in a couple more recent crossover games for the DS and 3DS.

Heck, here she is in one of them.

[Zevox]

I would like a radically different Pit in the game. The Pit from KIU has a large arsenal of weaponry, and it would be cool if each attack used its own special type of weapon and such.

That's what I think Dark Pit would be appropriate for. It's better not to radically alter an existing character's play style just because a new game makes it possible - just as it was better not to change Fox to using the staff from Adventures, but would rather be a good idea to give that to Krystal.

Re: Nintendo vs Capcom - I'd love to see something like that done in the same manner as Street Fighter vs Tekken is being done: one game by Nintendo in the style of Smash Brothers, one by Capcom in the style of their versus series.

[Wolf_Haley]

Would really like to see character get back things they lost from Melee in the transition from Brawl also. Especially Melee Dark Claw for Bowser.

[INoKnowNames]

That was my opinion on your response. If you want more specifics, I just don't see Geno Blast working well as a regular move, but I can see Geno Flash toned down for the game.

Ah, I see. Not like Square would be nice enough to give us Geno anyway...

Most of the characters actually have many liberties taken with them. I can't think of a single Starfox game that has any of the Smash characters with their B^, Bv, or B> abilities.

The Down B, Reflector, is quite clearly based on the G-Diffuser System used in the Arwings. The mobility based techs, The Fire X and X Illusion, depending on the animal, is also based on ship tech; the Boosters in the Arwings most notably. Additionally, as mentioned below, the Boosting of Ground Characters and the Invisibility were made ascended canon in Starfox Assault specifically.

Same with Captain Falcon.. And half of the characters could never do half of their regular moveset in their original games.

While I'll agree that most of these people couldn't do half of what they do originally, I'd also like to note that many of these features were made Ascended Canon, notably Captain Falcon's Bird of Prey styled attacks, and his memetric Falcon Paunch, which I shouldn't even have to link.

The point I'm making is that the techs and abilities are made part of the character based on things they already do, or distinctly establish new things they can do. Square's imaginative enough to enable an awesome moveset for Heart-Note-Exclamation-Question, but instead had that form be unable to do anything by itself, hence bringing the doll to life to do his work for him.

As much as I don't like three landmasters, I almost think taking away a landmaster at this point is kind of nerfing the character.

Wolf's Landmaster doesn't really last all that long. Directed covering fire from Leon and Panther wouldn't really hurt him. And replacing Falco's Landmaster with an Arwing is a -nerf- to you? Arwings are freaking vicious!

Hence the difference. And if you really want variation, the Arwings they call down could be based off the specific vehicles from Starfox Armada with very different ammunition types.

I believe you're referring to Starfox Command, not Armada. And for the sake of that variation, can you actually name those differences without looking it up? I'll note my next concern after that.

I really don't see a reason to give characters that already look like clones to the untrained eye even more moves similar to each other.

It could just be B^ up on the ground, or just Bv. There are other ways it could work too. Using one of the extraneous buttons, like taunt, for example.

I still entirely disagree with restricting moves. Donkey Kong would lose his Earthquake move or Pikachu lose his Thunder, as he would Ground Quick Attack Canceling. However, switching between Taunts is something I would have to give as an option that could work with no flaws.

I'd argue in this context that Luigi's Negative Zone wouldn't really qualify as a Transformation smash because, like the Ice Climbers' Final Smash, it just alters the terrain.

When you really get into classification, we've got 5 different types of Final Smashes:
Transformations (like Giga Bowser, Super Sonic, Octopus)
Stage Wide (like Palutena's Army, Pk Starstorm, Iceberg)
Trapping (like Triforce Slash, Blue Falcon, Great Aether)
Focused (like Puff Up, Konga Beat, Negative Zone)
Directional (like Mario Finale, Light Arrow, Triple Finish).

How does this affect your having each character having 2 Final Smashes? Furthermore, what about Pokémon Trainer, Zelda, Zero Suit Samus, and Olimar?

And the only reason I didn't mention Fludd or Poltergeist is because I would personally give Mario and Luigi a whole second moveset where they equip/put away the Fludd/Poltergeist as a Down B move, since they already relegated the Mario Cyclone to a physical attack.

Luigi still uses the Cyclone for his Down B...

I would be very much against that. I always hated Young Link and Toon Link as the very epitome of the clone-problem in the game.

And 3 -COMPLETELY- different Links, not sharing -anything- but name (and between Young and Toon Link, similar base color schemes when Young Link isn't using his masks) rank as clone problems to you, yet you'd support the further cloning of the Mario Bros and the Space Animals?

I only disagree in the sense that I don't really see the DK64 group making the cut as playable. Dixie Kong maybe. And Funky Kong and Cranky Kong would make fun assist trophies, maybe.

Not the entire DK64 group, no. If I had my pick, Tiny Kong and King K Rool (in one of his incarnations, anyway) would be playable. Chunky Kong would be Tiny's Final Smash as Hunky Chunky (not sure what K Rool's would be). Lanky would be an assist trophy at best... though Funky, Cranky, and Candy could also deserve to be in the next game somehow. Assist trophies wouldn't be too bad.

Don't really see how they would get an ability that was exclusively Samus's. Maybe Ridley could summon Kraid in the background as a Final Smash to knock people around.

Brinstar Depths stage would like a word with you. Ridley's cameo in Brinstar would need to be removed, maybe replaced with a Metroid or two.... but Ridley deserves to be playable. I've been under the (apparently wrong) impression that Ridley could use Phazon to power himself up and go into his own Hyper Mode as Dark Samus and the Phazon Hunters demonstrated. I've since learned that all he does is armor himself... though "Phazon Ridley" as a buff to Meta Ridley could be interesting with the right moveset, assuming his epic Fire Breath System or Multi Missile Launcher System don't see use in such a spot instead.

For transformation smashes? Hm... Probably change them into their Kirby Super Star (DS version) ultimate boss forms. Dedede gets his iron mask and giant hammer. I forget the name but there was an uber-Meta Knight boss in the DS version of Kirby Super Star.

Masked Dedede is already playable. The Dedede Hammer is an upgraded version of his basic Hammer, and is what he uses in Brawl, as evidenced by his Down B. Though putting on the mask for an upgrade might be interesting...
HOWEVER, DON'T CONFUSE METAKNIGHT WITH -GALACTA- KNIGHT. TWO -COMPLETELY- DIFFERENT KNIGHTS! ALL HAIL GALACTA KNIGHT!
... Galacta Knight would make a wonderful Boss for the next Brawl, if not one of Nightmare's Incarnations.

Alternatively for Kirby, he could summon one of the pets.

Heh... silly pets... get Nintendo to approve, and I'd dig it.

Xenosaga. Definitely a third-party character, though I forget which company made those games.

Never even heard of Xenosaga before today...

Alternate proposal from a straight-up Smash Bros game.

Super Smash Bros.

VS

Capcom

Mario VS Mega Man
Donkey Kong VS Haggar
Link VS Dante
Samus Aran VS Morrigan
Little Mac VS Ryu
Pikachu VS something from Monster Hunter

A combination of the platforming combat of Smash Bros with the Tag Team mechanics of the VS Capcom games.

Thoughts?

While I'd -love- it, and I certainly would enjoy seeing Mega Man join the Brawl, I still don't think Capcom deserves anyone's money anymore. You know they'd try to fill it with DLC and alternate versions.

I would like a radically different Pit in the game. The Pit from KIU has a large arsenal of weaponry, and it would be cool if each attack used its own special type of weapon and such.

Zevox and I agreed on this in an earlier Brawl thread, actually. Dark Pit uses like 5-6 different weapons against Pit during his chapter; using them for his specials and regular attacks in addition to his bow, pulling them out when using them and putting them up when not would be fun. Essentially, a Game & Watch like character when it comes to attacks.

Bandai Namco published the series, and Monolith Soft made the game. They're the same people who made the pretty successful Xenoblade, but I still think Kos-Mos would be a lot more recognizable, she also showed up in a couple more recent crossover games for the DS and 3DS.

Heck, here she is in one of them.

.... While that was very cool and very flashy, she seems more suited for a Capcom vs. Whatever than a Smash Bros. A bit more damaging and fast than most characters in the series have demonstrated.

That's what I think Dark Pit would be appropriate for. It's better not to radically alter an existing character's play style just because a new game makes it possible - just as it was better not to change Fox to using the staff from Adventures, but would rather be a good idea to give that to Krystal.

I entirely agree on all of this, but does that mean 1-2 updates in small areas, like Luigi using the Poltergeist for his grab, would be off-limits?

Would really like to see character get back things they lost from Melee in the transition from Brawl also. Especially Melee Dark Claw for Bowser.

It depends on what you call a loss, since it's arguable if someone lost something or got buffed. A lot of people enjoy the Bowser slam, throwing it into combos with flame breath to do extra damage, not to mention for the sake of Bowser-cide!

Besides, the Dark Claw could easily have its way back into the next game as part of Ridley's moveset, since he's used basically the same thing in the Prime series.

[Zevox]

I entirely agree on all of this, but does that mean 1-2 updates in small areas, like Luigi using the Poltergeist for his grab, would be off-limits?

In my opinion? No. Minor updates or changes is quite a different thing from completely reworking the character's fighting style. Something like changing Mario's down special to FLUDD, for instance, didn't completely change him as a character, the way switching Pit to using many of the different weapons from Uprising would. Luigi using the Poltergust in some way I'd put in the same category as the former.

[DiscipleofBob]

The Down B, Reflector, is quite clearly based on the G-Diffuser System used in the Arwings. The mobility based techs, The Fire X and X Illusion, depending on the animal, is also based on ship tech; the Boosters in the Arwings most notably. Additionally, as mentioned below, the Boosting of Ground Characters and the Invisibility were made ascended canon in Starfox Assault specifically.

That's a HUGE reach. Besides the fact that the Reflector, Illusion, and B^ moves of each character aren't even remotely similar to anything the arwings could do, even if they could, those would be the arwings and not the pilots.

While I'll agree that most of these people couldn't do half of what they do originally, I'd also like to note that many of these features were made Ascended Canon, notably Captain Falcon's Bird of Prey styled attacks, and his memetric Falcon Paunch, which I shouldn't even have to link.

Yeah, long AFTER Captain Falcon made his Smash Bros debut.

The point I'm making is that the techs and abilities are made part of the character based on things they already do, or distinctly establish new things they can do. Square's imaginative enough to enable an awesome moveset for Heart-Note-Exclamation-Question, but instead had that form be unable to do anything by itself, hence bringing the doll to life to do his work for him.

As I said, liberties are taken with Smash Bros characters and Smash Bros character movesets.

Wolf's Landmaster doesn't really last all that long. Directed covering fire from Leon and Panther wouldn't really hurt him. And replacing Falco's Landmaster with an Arwing is a -nerf- to you? Arwings are freaking vicious!

Maybe, but the Landmaster's pretty broken. Probably one of the most broken in the game in that it can kill people who are still freshly invulnerable after dying. Taking that away from two of the characters seems like a nerf to me.

I believe you're referring to Starfox Command, not Armada. And for the sake of that variation, can you actually name those differences without looking it up? I'll note my next concern after that.

I think you're right about the title. The DS one where you actually got to control different ships. And as for differences: Falco's arwing has a longer wingspan but slightly weaker lasers and armaments. I believe it only got one Nova Bomb. Slippy's arwing has a small wingspan and was stout, but was bulky, had multiple nova bombs, and started out with fully upgraded lasers. Leon didn't have regular lasers, just a rapid auto-fire homing laser (you know how holding down the fire button would lock on and fire a homing laser? Picture that except on auto fire). Panther couldn't lock on, but fired one big, damaging blast like a shotgun. There was significant cooldown between each blast, but the damage was a lot higher. Peppy used a classic Arwing. I don't remember anything special about Krystal, Katt, Bill, Andross's son, Slippy's wife off the top of my head, but only because I was too busy using Star Wolf to care.

I still entirely disagree with restricting moves. Donkey Kong would lose his Earthquake move or Pikachu lose his Thunder, as he would Ground Quick Attack Canceling. However, switching between Taunts is something I would have to give as an option that could work with no flaws.

The Bv moves could still be used if activated in the air, but I see your point. I'm flexible on how the second Final Smash would be activated. Taunt+B maybe.

When you really get into classification, we've got 5 different types of Final Smashes:
Transformations (like Giga Bowser, Super Sonic, Octopus)
Stage Wide (like Palutena's Army, Pk Starstorm, Iceberg)
Trapping (like Triforce Slash, Blue Falcon, Great Aether)
Focused (like Puff Up, Konga Beat, Negative Zone)
Directional (like Mario Finale, Light Arrow, Triple Finish).

How does this affect your having each character having 2 Final Smashes? Furthermore, what about Pokémon Trainer, Zelda, Zero Suit Samus, and Olimar?

I disagree on those categorizations, but then again I disagree on trying to classify the Final Smashes by individual category. The Transformation Smash is really more of a general guideline than a rule.

And no, I don't have every character thought out

Luigi still uses the Cyclone for his Down B...

He doesn't have to though.

And 3 -COMPLETELY- different Links, not sharing -anything- but name (and between Young and Toon Link, similar base color schemes when Young Link isn't using his masks) rank as clone problems to you, yet you'd support the further cloning of the Mario Bros and the Space Animals?

I'm not further cloning the Mario Bros or Space Animals. I'm not adding any more clone characters to the mix, just changing some of the movesets of existing ones. You're LITERALLY adding clones of the same character with some minor variations in movesets, except Wolf Link who by definition would be different. But even then, I was against Young Link, I was against Toon Link, and I would be against anything but one Link (to rule them all).

Brinstar Depths stage would like a word with you. Ridley's cameo in Brinstar would need to be removed, maybe replaced with a Metroid or two.... but Ridley deserves to be playable. I've been under the (apparently wrong) impression that Ridley could use Phazon to power himself up and go into his own Hyper Mode as Dark Samus and the Phazon Hunters demonstrated. I've since learned that all he does is armor himself... though "Phazon Ridley" as a buff to Meta Ridley could be interesting with the right moveset, assuming his epic Fire Breath System or Multi Missile Launcher System don't see use in such a spot instead.

You mean that stage that was ALREADY cut in Brawl?

I don't mind the other suggestions though, specifically since I haven't played many of the Metroid games besides Super Metroid to really make a judgment call.

Masked Dedede is already playable. The Dedede Hammer is an upgraded version of his basic Hammer, and is what he uses in Brawl, as evidenced by his Down B. Though putting on the mask for an upgrade might be interesting...
HOWEVER, DON'T CONFUSE METAKNIGHT WITH -GALACTA- KNIGHT. TWO -COMPLETELY- DIFFERENT KNIGHTS! ALL HAIL GALACTA KNIGHT!
... Galacta Knight would make a wonderful Boss for the next Brawl, if not one of Nightmare's Incarnations.

Yes, I'm aware that Galacta Knight and Meta Knight are too completely separate characters. No, I don't care, and stand my original assessment that Meta Knight could transform into Galacta Knight and use his moveset as a Transformation smash.

While I'd -love- it, and I certainly would enjoy seeing Mega Man join the Brawl, I still don't think Capcom deserves anyone's money anymore. You know they'd try to fill it with DLC and alternate versions.

And I would pay for each additional character.

[TheSummoner]

Re: Masked Dedede and Galacta Knight -

Wouldn't they just be better as alternate costumes for Dedede and Meta Knight? For free of course because I'm really getting sick of developers trying to milk more money out of people who already purchased their game and also because Nintendo is one of the few companies who doesn't pull that crap.

[Scowling Dragon]

OOOOH I know what Kind Dededes NEW final smash should be:

He temporarily turns Masked! And as long as the Masked Dedede music plays I will be happy.

[Raistlin1040]

Honestly, I like the roster of Melee the best, since it feels diverse and fun without being too crowded. Brawl is a cool game, but it feels like there are too many characters. I would probably take out Ike, Lucas, R.O.B., Sonic and Wolf at the very least, as well as Toon Link. However, if I was to add in characters, it would definitely be Mega Man (either Classic or X. I don't think Megaman.exe would cut it) and Simon Belmont. Might come up with movesets for them later.