MS Paint Adventures 7: At the Price of Oblivion

[Jayngfet]

Heeeyyy yeah, thanks for twisting things way out of proportion there mate. glad your havin fun with that.

If your gunna stick around then i think i'm gunna bail for awhile, i have issues about sticking around with people who are gunna be jerks for no real reason. Whelp, looks like this is goin the way of the CAD and and LICD threads, being filled with people who hate the dang thing and yet still read it and look for excuses to talk about it for some reason. never did understand that. I'll come back if and when i feel the thread is more about liking the comic the thread is actually for rather then just being an outlet for unnecessary hate against it that really has no reason to be vocalized here.


And for the record, it's been three years. That character development your so upset about disappearing? Yeah that was three years ago, Vriska's kinda been wandering around the dream bubbles for three years, if not longer due to furthest ring shenanigans, and with everyone around her apparently forgiving her after some time, it was probably easy to revert back to how she was, who even knows.

if anything, it's just more character development from the development that already happened. You don't just develop to a point and stop forever, you keep going. sometimes that makes you go the wrong way.


Also for the record, you don't need to have this whole transition from bad guy to good guy or bad-guy-who-regrets-it to be a good/interesting character. sometimes people are just fine and dandy the way they are.

also ALSO for the record, This. If you can't read it the green text is basically you talking about how horrible these people are, and the red text is me not understanding what your point is. People can like bad-person characters. it kinda happens.

That is all! G'bye, call me when things grow up.

I just love how instead of just responding to the argument like a rational adult so we can converse as such, you defaulted to defensive sarcasm and left.

I mean, I may have got a little overboard I'll admit, and I'm going to try to keep things civil, but this is a whole 'nother level of immaturity.

[Derjuin]

I'm not surprised at Vriska, just how all the other characters seem to be going along with it.This is starting to approach the Eight Deadly Words for me.

Breakin' my vow of silence all up in this place

I guess I was hoping against the inevitable, since no one else seems surprised that Vriska's character development has apparently gone in the opposite direction.

Also, the phrase "can't see the forest through the trees" is springing to mind the more I think of Homestuck anymore. It feels like there's too much emphasis on the individuals, and yet most of the ones it focuses on are bland or are becoming simplified - or their difficult moments are simply handwaved as happening off screen.

[Tectonic Robot]

I like homestuck, I think Hussie is very good at jokes and characters and I like his art style, and I'm going to be sad when homestuck's over.

Ya'll can not like it, but I'm not going to agree with you, and since this thread is mostly full of fans, you're probably all going to get into arguments with other folks.

[Derjuin]

I like homestuck, I think Hussie is very good at jokes and characters and I like his art style, and I'm going to be sad when homestuck's over.

Ya'll can not like it, but I'm not going to agree with you, and since this thread is mostly full of fans, you're probably all going to get into arguments with other folks.

There's a difference between not liking it and being disappointed with it; at one point, homestuck was my favorite thing ever. I wanted to know more about it, look for those hidden references and dig up interesting connections - that's one reason why I liked Vriska so much. Hussie put a lot of little nuances into her character (not just hers, mind you - every kid and major troll has their interesting quirks); I could go on for a long time about it.

I don't know if I've just gotten bored with it, or if I had different expectations for it than everyone else, but the whole story just feels too big to me. As I said, "lost the forest for the trees".

[Tectonic Robot]

There's a difference between not liking it and being disappointed with it; at one point, homestuck was my favorite thing ever. I wanted to know more about it, look for those hidden references and dig up interesting connections - that's one reason why I liked Vriska so much. Hussie put a lot of little nuances into her character (not just hers, mind you - every kid and major troll has their interesting quirks); I could go on for a long time about it.

I don't know if I've just gotten bored with it, or if I had different expectations for it than everyone else, but the whole story just feels too big to me. As I said, "lost the forest for the trees".

My deepest regret is that Hussie hasn't used Dave's extra brain. Truly a golden plot device, left behind.

[AgentPaper]

I don't know why you think Vriska's changed her character here. She's just like she's always been, and as many Vriska-hating posters loved to say long ago, just because she monologued a bit about how maybe she doesn't like killing people doesn't mean she's suddenly a goody two-shoes. I mean, immediately after that whole spiel, she went off to kill the BBEG all on her own and doomed the party because of her overconfidence, leading to her death. For all we know, she still has all those same doubts that she had before, but still sees them as a weakness to be repressed, rather than true feelings to be embraced. Not that we even know for sure that those are her true feelings, because again, it was just a few minutes of her rambling to herself.

[Tectonic Robot]

Vriska has pretty much always been like this - I feel like her actions aren't very surprising.

And Aranea was Mindfang, I suppose. Remember she never seemed ashamed of being Mindfang. So I'm not too surprised or offended by any of this.

I think the John and Sollux conversation was humorous. I liked Aradia a lot, she was neato. And... I'm not sure if Vriska has actually killed anyone yet.

I mean, murdered recently.

[Jayngfet]

I don't know why you think Vriska's changed her character here. She's just like she's always been, and as many Vriska-hating posters loved to say long ago, just because she monologued a bit about how maybe she doesn't like killing people doesn't mean she's suddenly a goody two-shoes. I mean, immediately after that whole spiel, she went off to kill the BBEG all on her own and doomed the party because of her overconfidence, leading to her death. For all we know, she still has all those same doubts that she had before, but still sees them as a weakness to be repressed, rather than true feelings to be embraced. Not that we even know for sure that those are her true feelings, because again, it was just a few minutes of her rambling to herself.

The problem is that we're effectively having it both ways with Vriska hate.

On ONE hand, what she did with Tavros should absolutely be counted as crocodile tears(and I still hold firm that Terezi's situation with Dave is also crocodile tears, but the nuances of how Awful Terezi is at every level are an entirely separate conversation). As well, her initial afterlife was probably way better than she deserved. A lot of it wasn't entirely convincing but you could tell that there was some amount of recognition, that Vriska knew that she wasn't good or heroic.

On the OTHER hand, that lip service that had a decent enough ending when she met Beta-John was completely reversed. Her conversations with John and her attempts to at least try to be better and her being forced to share a headspace with the person she tormented and killed all equated to exactly nothing. When the chips are down she runs right back to doing crazy horrible things with no concern for anybody else. None of this has impacted her character in any recognizable way given her current actions. On the contrary, everyone ELSE seems to agree that this is a good thing, with any arguments happening offscreen.

You can say she feels this way or that way about it but at the end of the day, it's all your words and your headcannon and nothing else. It's a fan patch on something Hussie hasn't bothered to address because he's been too busy adding more one dimensional characters.

And... I'm not sure if Vriska has actually killed anyone yet.

I mean, murdered recently.

If you willingly send a boatload of people into a circumstance you know their chances of living from are slim, it counts as you killing them. You don't have to pull the trigger to be held accountable. That's like, the entire definition of fourth degree murder.

[Tectonic Robot]

If you willingly send a boatload of people into a circumstance you know their chances of living from are slim, it counts as you killing them. You don't have to pull the trigger to be held accountable. That's like, the entire definition of fourth degree murder.

It doesn't count as killing them if you they're not actually did yet, though. o-O

[Jayngfet]

It doesn't count as killing them if you they're not actually did yet, though. o-O

Didn't she say she's already started doing it?

In any case, that's still Attempted murder even if she's somehow stopped.

[Tectonic Robot]

Pirates!

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And I don't think she's attempting to murder them yet, either. Is conscription considered massive attempted murder when governments do it?

[Derjuin]

I don't know why you think Vriska's changed her character here.

Jayngfet said it well enough:

On the OTHER hand, that lip service that had a decent enough ending when she met Beta-John was completely reversed. Her conversations with John and her attempts to at least try to be better and her being forced to share a headspace with the person she tormented and killed all equated to exactly nothing. When the chips are down she runs right back to doing crazy horrible things with no concern for anybody else. None of this has impacted her character in any recognizable way given her current actions. On the contrary, everyone ELSE seems to agree that this is a good thing, with any arguments happening offscreen.

It's not that she's not changed. It's just that when presented with what appears to be character development, she DOESN'T change.

I mean, immediately after that whole spiel, she went off to kill the BBEG all on her own and doomed the party because of her overconfidence, leading to her death. For all we know, she still has all those same doubts that she had before, but still sees them as a weakness to be repressed, rather than true feelings to be embraced. Not that we even know for sure that those are her true feelings, because again, it was just a few minutes of her rambling to herself.

EB: so maybe you should just let us handle it? at least we won't fight him directly.
AG: I don't know. Even though I'm conflicted, it still feels like something I have to do.
AG: I admit, I'm pretty scared thinking a8out it.
AG: Not of him necessarily, 8ut of the fact that I apparently don't know myself as well as I 8elieved.
AG: What if I'm not as lucky as I thought?

(and, later)

AG: We just concluded that I am going to go fight Jack. And there is a possi8ility I will fail! He could kill me easily for all I know. 8ut it's something I have to try.

It sounds less like she was overconfident, and more like she felt like she had to face him in battle - possibly because of guilt or responsibility for making him what he was. Earlier she says it's not just for glory - it's also to protect her friends, and later that there's a plausible chance that she'll die. I don't know why she would lie to John about how she really feels, but considering her normal tough-kid-don't-care-bout-you attitude is, for the most part, stripped away in these conversations, I assumed they were.

But then, there is the possibility that she lied or stretched the truth, for reasons that aren't apparent to me.

[Jayngfet]

And I don't think she's attempting to murder them yet, either. Is conscription considered massive attempted murder when governments do it?

Conscription, in and of itself, is considered to be an awful and immoral thing that the majority of governments are moving away from. It's considered to be one of the most awful things about war that hasn't been practiced in a wide scale since the last world wars basically demanded it.

Not to mention that drafts don't involve heavy mental conditioning and the use of teenagers and children. Unless we count that Nazi's. But honestly I think we can all agree that if you use them as a moral excuse you don't even deserve to be arguing.

[AgentPaper]

It sounds less like she was overconfident, and more like she felt like she had to face him in battle - possibly because of guilt or responsibility for making him what he was. Earlier she says it's not just for glory - it's also to protect her friends, and later that there's a plausible chance that she'll die. I don't know why she would lie to John about how she really feels, but considering her normal tough-kid-don't-care-bout-you attitude is, for the most part, stripped away in these conversations, I assumed they were.

But then, there is the possibility that she lied or stretched the truth, for reasons that aren't apparent to me.

Well, this is where it comes in that she's a complicated character. (sorta) She was having doubts when she made that speech, but she never in there made a decision to actually stop doing the things she was doubtful about. In fact, the part you just quoted sums it up pretty nicely. She had doubts about what she was doing, but felt like she had to do it anyways. Even right after that speech, before she died, she was still acting the same as always when confronted by Terezi. Her current characterization is simply a continuation of what she's always been like, so I don't see how it's any kind of derailment.

[Dragonus45]

Well, this is where it comes in that she's a complicated character. (sorta) She was having doubts when she made that speech, but she never in there made a decision to actually stop doing the things she was doubtful about. In fact, the part you just quoted sums it up pretty nicely. She had doubts about what she was doing, but felt like she had to do it anyways. Even right after that speech, before she died, she was still acting the same as always when confronted by Terezi. Her current characterization is simply a continuation of what she's always been like, so I don't see how it's any kind of derailment.

I feel the derailment comes in the fact that she had development opertunity and it seemed like she was going to move on. Only none of it happened and hahahahaha. I feel like that's the whole of Trolls are moving in that direction, none of them really develop or move past the big failures that characterize them. They all either wallow in how bad off they are or just get worse, and it makes them feel uninteresting.

[Jayngfet]

I feel the derailment comes in the fact that she had development opertunity and it seemed like she was going to move on. Only none of it happened and hahahahaha. I feel like that's the whole of Trolls are moving in that direction, none of them really develop or move past the big failures that characterize them. They all either wallow in how bad off they are or just get worse, and it makes them feel uninteresting.

This.

I mean lets be brutally honest here.

Vriska is only an interesting character by homestuck standards. In terms of general fiction she isn't in the top ten percent. Hell, she's not even in the top twenty five. Even with a completed character arc the very best you could say is she's certainly in the top half of the list and maybe slightly higher.

She's a C-. A Canadian C minus.

[AgentPaper]

I feel the derailment comes in the fact that she had development opertunity and it seemed like she was going to move on. Only none of it happened and hahahahaha. I feel like that's the whole of Trolls are moving in that direction, none of them really develop or move past the big failures that characterize them. They all either wallow in how bad off they are or just get worse, and it makes them feel uninteresting.

I think you're confusing derailment with simple dislike of how the character is progressing. If you're unhappy that she didn't go through with the heel face turn, then that's fine (I wouldn't have minded seeing it either), but that doesn't mean that she's been derailed. If anything, her suddenly not being arrogant and bitchy would have been the derailment.

[Jayngfet]

I think you're confusing derailment with simple dislike of how the character is progressing. If you're unhappy that she didn't go through with the heel face turn, then that's fine (I wouldn't have minded seeing it either), but that doesn't mean that she's been derailed. If anything, her suddenly not being arrogant and bitchy would have been the derailment.

She DIDN'T GO THROUGH WITH IT.

This isn't hard to grasp.

She spends a bunch of time mourning a bunch of stuff she did that could be argued as direct self defense and self preservation, and making a bunch of terrible decisions regarding how she deals with things.

Then she spends an undisclosed amount of time of up to two years trying to mellow out.

Then, suddenly, she pulls out an action with a body count that's bordering on genocide.

You can't just abort a character arc unceremoniously and not call it derailment. That's now how it works. If you think it is, your definition is wrong.

[AgentPaper]

She DIDN'T GO THROUGH WITH IT.

This isn't hard to grasp.

She spends a bunch of time mourning a bunch of stuff she did that could be argued as direct self defense and self preservation, and making a bunch of terrible decisions regarding how she deals with things.

Then she spends an undisclosed amount of time of up to two years trying to mellow out.

Then, suddenly, she pulls out an action with a body count that's bordering on genocide.

You can't just abort a character arc unceremoniously and not call it derailment. That's now how it works. If you think it is, your definition is wrong.

No, it's not hard to grasp, and you're not going to win any arguments by insinuating that I'm stupid.

She spent maybe 5 minutes typing to someone who never responded. That's ot "a bunch of time mourning", it's 5 minutes of talking to herself. Which she followed with no amount of time mellowing out, instead opting to charge at the unbeatable enemy head-first even when threatened by a lifelong friend (well, as much as the word friend applies to troll relationships).

She may have made the first step on the journey towards redemption, and taking the first step may be the most important one, but it's only one step of many, and we haven't seen her take any of the others. Taking one step from "horrible, but possibly regretful" back to just plain horrible is by no means a character derailment.

[Scowling Dragon]

Then present it that way. Have John go like "I was hoping you would change. You didn't"

Everybody is just so ****ing MELLOW. Nothing phases them anymore. If you want to write a story about a bunch of shellshocked kids that have gone ****ing nuts and would not bat an eye at the idea of murdering mind controlled people by the thousands then portray it as that.

John is no longer the "Everykid" he has been flanderized towards "Mellowish guy". He should say "WHAT THE ****! Vriska! What the ****!". He didn't know much about her before, but now that he does know she a total monster he should have a reaction.

If the story is about Vriskas FAILURE to grow frame it as a failure. If the story is about a bunch of ****ing psychos FRAME them as psychos.

But its not doing that. What if during the gamzee is nuts arc the framing was the same as right now:

"Oh. Your on a killing spree? Cool I guess. Carry onwards"

[AgentPaper]

Then present it that way. Have John go like "I was hoping you would change. You didn't"

Everybody is just so ****ing MELLOW. Nothing phases them anymore. If you want to write a story about a bunch of shellshocked kids that have gone ****ing nuts and would not bat an eye at the idea of murdering mind controlled people by the thousands then portray it as that.

John is no longer the "Everykid" he has been flanderized towards "Mellowish guy". He should say "WHAT THE ****! Vriska! What the ****!". He didn't know much about her before, but now that he does know she a total monster he should have a reaction.

If the story is about Vriskas FAILURE to grow frame it as a failure. If the story is about a bunch of ****ing psychos FRAME them as psychos.

But its not doing that. What if during the gamzee is nuts arc the framing was the same as right now:

"Oh. Your on a killing spree? Cool I guess. Carry onwards"

Er, that's kinda out of left field. I'm simply trying to make it clear that this isn't character derailment going on. I'm not going to even start trying to argue with you about the pros and cons of how the story is progressing, since it's ultimately a matter of opinion, and I quite like the way the story is going.

Seriously though, I think you should spend some time away from the comic. Maybe wait a month or so, then come back when you aren't frothing at the mouth about how each update ruins homestuck forever.

[Scowling Dragon]

I did.

I come back and its worse then ever. Your technically right. There is no such thing as wrong character development. However, there can be improperly framed character development. Poorly implemented character development.

THIS is poorly implemented character development. This was supposed to be a big change. Vriska goes completely nuts and does mass murder on a huge scale.

However, we see nothing that leads up to what caused her to be that way. What caused her to shift back into the psychopathy that was before?

This isn't good character development. Its either only spoken about ("I guess im in love with THIS person now") or isn't explained at all.

Good character development NEVER happens offscreen. Which it has been happening all this time for like a YEAR.

[AgentPaper]

I did.

I come back and its worse then ever. Your technically right. There is no such thing as wrong character development. However, there can be improperly framed character development. Poorly implemented character development.

THIS is poorly implemented character development. This was supposed to be a big change. Vriska goes completely nuts and does mass murder on a huge scale.

However, we see nothing that leads up to what caused her to be that way. What caused her to shift back into the psychopathy that was before?

This isn't good character development. Its either only spoken about ("I guess im in love with THIS person now") or isn't explained at all.

Good character development NEVER happens offscreen. Which it has been happening all this time for like a YEAR.

If Homestuck were a novel, or even a somewhat more serious webcomic, I'd agree with you, but this is the world of future alternate dream selves, mobius double-reacharound team dynamics, and cat funerals. Would the comic improve if the characterization was a bit better and there was more character growth? Maybe. But honestly I don't think it would change much, and if taken too seriously, could actually hurt the zany pace of the comic.

Anyways, I think everyone here understands your point of view on the comic very well. Nobody's arguing with you because you're essentially right, except for the small caveat that this is Homestuck, and normal rules of literature don't apply. (except when they feel like it)

[Scowling Dragon]

The question is then what IS Homestuck Good at? Is it a puzzle comic? Well not much anymore.

Rules are introduced at such a fast pace nowdays that anything can happen at any point in time. In fact the only reason the main villian exists is because the author insert says so.

Is it a lighthearted comic? No. I don't think jacks eyes exploding in a orgy of blood wasn't supposed to be funny. Its treated too seriously.

Is it zany? Well not much anymore either. Lots of time is spent on the characters and their relationships.

You could argue that the Ziggaloo was zany, but it was incredibly forced in. And magically retconned.

Is it a serious comic either? Well it doesn't treat the serious things in it seriously half the time as well.

So in conclusion I would argue its a confused comic thats trying to be everything. Whether its good or not is your opinion.

Mine is its not. Unless I get questioned and get into an argument Im out.

[Cavelcade]

I think Homestuck has probably gone downhill with regards to John's team and KK's team since they've started their magical three year journey. I think the only accurate way to read Homestuck is as a satire, though (and the rules of satire do apply to it, so...), but we've had that discussion before. This is not restarting that argument.

[Scowling Dragon]

This is not restarting that argument.

Yes. I think everybody is sick enough from me already.

[Cavelcade]

No, I actually enjoyed our last discussion - it really helped me bring my thoughts on Homestuck into focus. I just haven't had a chance to do any rereading since then, and so I have nothing more to add.

I do think your first post was pretty over the top with regards to swearing.

[Tectonic Robot]

The question is then what IS Homestuck Good at? Is it a puzzle comic? Well not much anymore.

Rules are introduced at such a fast pace nowdays that anything can happen at any point in time. In fact the only reason the main villian exists is because the author insert says so.

Is it a lighthearted comic? No. I don't think jacks eyes exploding in a orgy of blood wasn't supposed to be funny. Its treated too seriously.

Is it zany? Well not much anymore either. Lots of time is spent on the characters and their relationships.

You could argue that the Ziggaloo was zany, but it was incredibly forced in. And magically retconned.

Is it a serious comic either? Well it doesn't treat the serious things in it seriously half the time as well.

So in conclusion I would argue its a confused comic thats trying to be everything. Whether its good or not is your opinion.

Mine is its not. Unless I get questioned and get into an argument Im out.

Homestuck has always had serious bits inserted with the lighthearted bits, and I think Jack being hypnotized by an Lil' Cal, an evil puppet from the beginning of the story, was kind of humorous. I think it's still zany, though. Is Ziggaloo the trickster items? Because I thought that was extremely zany! It's partially serious. It hops from serious to silly rather frequently.

So, in conclusion, it tries to be everything, but I don't think it's confused. I think it's all blended rather well.

I think Homestuck has probably gone downhill with regards to John's team and KK's team since they've started their magical three year journey. I think the only accurate way to read Homestuck is as a satire, though (and the rules of satire do apply to it, so...), but we've had that discussion before. This is not restarting that argument.

I do find myself missing a bit how the characters acted before the three year journey! It was soooo cooooool.

New update, though!

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John is still my favorite. Eyebrows! ^_^

Edit: In regards to arguments:

The last argument was a long slog and caused a lot of unfortunate feelings. If we could avoid that, it'd be neat. ^^''

Oh, and Wayward Vagabond!

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From here.

[Calemyr]

Okay, I get it. You're not enjoying Homestuck anymore. Can we please let it go?

I mean, I don't even disagree with you. I thought the only reason for the Bloodbath at Grub Lab arc was the realization that there were too many tertiary characters and unnecessary plot threads and the only way Hussie was going to tighten the story up a little was to throw blood around like it was macabre technicolor confetti.

And yet now we've got a whole load of new characters who hardly even classify as tertiary, more loose threads than a textiles kegger, the main characters (even the alpha kids) are being more or less ignored, and the plot points that were once actually resolved are now less resolved than how they started. (How does the Seer of Mind not see the direction she's going? Is she now going Mindless the way Rose once went Grimdark?)

So, yeah, I understand your frustration. I'm not going to ask you to not feel that way, I'm not even going to ask you to stop subjecting yourself to something you clearly despise - because humans clearly have some understanding of blackrom based on certain reactions to this comic. But I would ask you to stop railing on it. Please. This story may be a growing trainwreck, but there it can still be a pleasant topic of conversation if people aren't dead set on defecating on it.

(And yes, I understand what a hypocrite I may sound like given my signature, but you don't see me returning to the Mass Effect thread to rehash my opinion of the game. If they enjoy it, I say let them.)

[Ninja Dragon]

Vriska tried to become a better person. She failed. It happens all the time in real life.

It's like with alcoholics. They just don't stop drinking alcohol forever and then never have any problem with this again. They struggle. They start drinking again. They lie to themselves. And then they have to stop drinking again. Because they are real people, and real people fail all the time.

I think this is making Vriska more realistic than just giving her permanent character development with no bad consequences. She has been a horrible person the entire life. She is not going to become good easily, even if she wants to.

As for Jonh, I think he is too baffled by how weird trolls are to try to be the moral guy. He is not even sure if trolls are supposed to be violent or not, since he pretty much only knows Karkat, Terezi and Vriska, and Vriska has admitted to have killed lots of people, while Terezi has tried to kill him before. As far as Jonh knows, the trolls might be all like Vriska, and he is not going to try to change them all because you can't easily change a whole culture. And you know, that idea is half right, the trolls do have a violent culture.