MS Paint Adventures 7: At the Price of Oblivion

[Scowling Dragon]

Okay, I get it. You're not enjoying Homestuck anymore. Can we please let it go?

Hey, I only jumped into the room to throw in my ten cents about Vriska and leave. I wrote that myself.

Also sorry for rage swearing.

[Jayngfet]

I think Homestuck has probably gone downhill with regards to John's team and KK's team since they've started their magical three year journey. I think the only accurate way to read Homestuck is as a satire, though (and the rules of satire do apply to it, so...), but we've had that discussion before. This is not restarting that argument.

A satire of what? I mean, there doesn't seem to be much I can identify that's actually being satirized effectively.

[Tectonic Robot]

A satire of what? I mean, there doesn't seem to be much I can identify that's actually being satirized effectively.

Uh, hm.

...Humor?

Uh. Cool dudes. Video game rules. Teenage drama. Plot twists. Most common story telling cliches.

Hook is being satirized... fatherhood? What with all the shaving jokes? The ICP?

A lot of stuff, really. @___@

[Jayngfet]

Uh, hm.

...Humor?

Uh. Cool dudes. Video game rules. Teenage drama. Plot twists. Most common story telling cliches.

Hook is being satirized... fatherhood? What with all the shaving jokes? The ICP?

A lot of stuff, really. @___@

Yeah, but none of those have been satirized well in ages.

Don't get me wrong, at least the first two and the last one were great in act's 1-3. Nobody will ever deny that. Hell, even act 4 wasn't that bad considering how clunky it was. It's just those bits have all fallen by the wayside for MORE CHARACTERS WITH ONE PERSONALITY TRAIT.

Everything else is kind of just reaching though. It's one thing to make a joke about something, and another to actually satirize it.

[Incom]

Homestuck strikes me as a work that focuses more on events than the people that get wrapped up in them, for better or for worse.

I've only been around MSPA for a couple weeks and I'm still enjoying things.

[Cavelcade]

A satire of what? I mean, there doesn't seem to be much I can identify that's actually being satirized effectively.

As I've argued before, it's a satire of the internet and, I guess, more specifically, the culture(s) of the internet.

I'm not going to get into this argument again, now, it's played out for me until I have time to go and reread it, but I was reasonably satisfied with my reading of it in this way.

[Ninja Dragon]

Yeah, but none of those have been satirized well in ages.

Don't get me wrong, at least the first two and the last one were great in act's 1-3. Nobody will ever deny that. Hell, even act 4 wasn't that bad considering how clunky it was. It's just those bits have all fallen by the wayside for MORE CHARACTERS WITH ONE PERSONALITY TRAIT.

Everything else is kind of just reaching though. It's one thing to make a joke about something, and another to actually satirize it.

You know, before I started reading Homestuck, I read a review that said everything changes after act 5, and you either like it or not. I was ready for some disappointment, but I ended up loving it. If you went through act 5 and did not like it, then you should really drop the comic. It's been almost 3 years, and the style is not coming back to act 1-4. It's staying like this. And considering that this comic only became really popular after act 5 began, most people prefer this new format.

It's like complaining that OOTS does not focus on parodying D&D rules anymore. That ship has sailed long ago.

[Tectonic Robot]

You know, before I started reading Homestuck, I read a review that said everything changes after act 5, and you either like it or not. I was ready for some disappointment, but I ended up loving it. If you went through act 5 and did not like it, then you should really drop the comic. It's been almost 3 years, and the style is not coming back to act 1-4. It's staying like this. And considering that this comic only became really popular after act 5 began, most people prefer this new format.

It's like complaining that OOTS does not focus on parodying D&D rules anymore. That ship has sailed long ago.

But...

I liked acts 1-4.

D:

They gave us Descend! And the Bro and Dave fights! And Explore! And all sorts of good stuff. ;-;

[Ninja Dragon]

But...

I liked acts 1-4.

D:

They gave us Descend! And the Bro and Dave fights! And Explore! And all sorts of good stuff. ;-;

So did I. But the new "incredible complicated plot with hundreds of characters" thing is just too good.

[Dragonus45]

So did I. But the new "incredible complicated plot with hundreds of characters" thing is just too good.

It also has to many characters and gives no real screen time to the people we traveled acts 1-4 together with. Then when it does show them if often gets there characterization off, or rolls them backwards for the sake of old jokes. Honestly i think its time for some genocide on the trolls, some super real hardcore extra ghosty genocide.

[Who What Now]

hen when it does show them if often gets there characterization off,

Gets their characterization off? So you honestly wish for the characters to stay static and go through absolutely no changes after going through life for 3 years? You honestly don't think that would change a person in the slightest?

[Ninja Dragon]

I don't know if anyone has done that before, but I was thinking about giving the main homestuck characters D&D alignments. I got to this:

Jonh: Neutral Good
Rose: Chaotic Good
Dave: Neutral Good
Jade: Lawful Good
Jane: Neutral Good
Jake: Chaotic Good
Dirk: Lawful Good
Roxy: Chaotic Good

It gets more interesting with the trolls:

Aradia: Lawful Neutral, then True Neutral after god tiering.
Tavros: Neutral Good
Sollux: True Neutral
Karkat: Lawful Good
Nepeta: Chaotic Good
Kanaya: Lawful Good
Terezi: Lawful Neutral
Vriska: Neutral Evil
Equius: Lawful Neutral. Would be Lawful Evil if not for Nepeta.
Gamzee: Chaotic Neutral, then Chaotic Evil after he starts killing people.
Eridan: Lawful Evil
Feferi: Lawful Good
Aranea: True Neutral
Meenah: Chaotic Neutral

Also:

Caliborn: Chaotic Evil
Calliope: Neutral Good

What do you guys think?

It also has to many characters and gives no real screen time to the people we traveled acts 1-4 together with. Then when it does show them if often gets there characterization off, or rolls them backwards for the sake of old jokes. Honestly i think its time for some genocide on the trolls, some super real hardcore extra ghosty genocide.

The pacing is better than the majority of webcomics I read, and the amount of characters make for an incredibly complicated plot, which gives some amazing pay-offs when you get to the end of plotlines (like Cascade).

[Jayngfet]

So did I. But the new "incredible complicated plot with hundreds of characters" thing is just too good.

No, it's not. These are some of the flattest characters Hussie has ever written and very few of them actually do anything. They're window dressing with no actual value. Explain to me specifically what Homestuck gained from 90% of the Alpha Trolls. Heck, explain to me why every session needs every set of players introduced. At this point these characters are padding for the sake of it.

[Squark]

Eh, I think you're making a bigger deal out of the alpha trolls than you need to. Yes, they didn't really add much to the narrative, I'll admit. But that wasn't actually why they were introduced- they were introduced to shut a very vocal part of the fandom up.

A6I3's flashes were a bit of a plot tumor, though, especially if you weren't enjoying them. Wierdly enough, I'm finding the dream bubbles more annoying now than I was during A6I3 (Which I enjoyed). I think it's the stupidity of Vriska's plan and how everyone's just going along with it.

[AgentPaper]

No, it's not. These are some of the flattest characters Hussie has ever written and very few of them actually do anything. They're window dressing with no actual value. Explain to me specifically what Homestuck gained from 90% of the Alpha Trolls. Heck, explain to me why every session needs every set of players introduced. At this point these characters are padding for the sake of it.

They added a dozen or so new characters that, if not exactly deep, at least were fun for the short time we had to talk to them. If we had spent much more time with them, they likely would have gotten grating pretty fast, but don't mistake your dislike for the characters for everyone's dislike of the characters. I enjoyed their introduction a lot, for starters.

I'm not sure what you mean by padding. What makes something "necessary"? And necessary to what exactly? Homestuck isn't trying to teach a lesson or convey a message, so by that point of view, everything is "padding" and we may as well have ended on panel 1.

[Ninja Dragon]

No, it's not. These are some of the flattest characters Hussie has ever written and very few of them actually do anything. They're window dressing with no actual value. Explain to me specifically what Homestuck gained from 90% of the Alpha Trolls. Heck, explain to me why every session needs every set of players introduced. At this point these characters are padding for the sake of it.

The Alpha Trolls (with the exception of Aranea and Meenah) are useless, but the comic spent very little time on them. It was more of a thing to satisfy the curiosity of the fanbase. Believe it or not, there are people complaining that the alpha trolls don't have enough screen time.

[Jayngfet]

A6I3's flashes were a bit of a plot tumor, though, especially if you weren't enjoying them. Wierdly enough, I'm finding the dream bubbles more annoying now than I was during A6I3 (Which I enjoyed). I think it's the stupidity of Vriska's plan and how everyone's just going along with it.

Eh, I think it's this plus maybe a dozen or more other things that've built up over time. Vriska's plan and everyone's reaction to it is just the same thing as a bunch of other stuff before on a larger scale.

Gamzee kills a bunch of people but everybody seems to be willing to forgive him. It's not even the main reason the others don't like him at this point apparently.

Terezi's actions wound up making two different beta timelines with corpses currently active characters had to deal with, and they just kinda drop the matter.

Vriska cripples Tavros, and it doesn't even rate a "what the hell". I mean I'll accept a bunch of things but you can't convince me that these two are supposed to be in even remotely the same social circle if she basically got him slated for culling and nobody brings it up even once.

Heck, PM chasing Jack is one of the only grudges that wasn't immediately dropped, and Jack's reasoning of "why won't she just GET OVER all those friends of hers I murdered?" is a lot less funny when it's actually the default line of logic instead of an absurd train of thought from the mind of a violent sociopath.

[Ninja Dragon]

Eh, I think it's this plus maybe a dozen or more other things that've built up over time. Vriska's plan and everyone's reaction to it is just the same thing as a bunch of other stuff before on a larger scale.

Gamzee kills a bunch of people but everybody seems to be willing to forgive him. It's not even the main reason the others don't like him at this point apparently.

Terezi's actions wound up making two different beta timelines with corpses currently active characters had to deal with, and they just kinda drop the matter.

Vriska cripples Tavros, and it doesn't even rate a "what the hell". I mean I'll accept a bunch of things but you can't convince me that these two are supposed to be in even remotely the same social circle if she basically got him slated for culling and nobody brings it up even once.

Heck, PM chasing Jack is one of the only grudges that wasn't immediately dropped, and Jack's reasoning of "why won't she just GET OVER all those friends of hers I murdered?" is a lot less funny when it's actually the default line of logic instead of an absurd train of thought from the mind of a violent sociopath.

One word: aliens. You have to remember they are a ruthless civilization. They are expected to be murderers.

What is interesting about them is watching as they try to overcome their ruthlessness, which mixed results. Terezi has been trying to be a good person for a long time, as you can see in her dialogue with Dave on A5A2. Vriska too, altough she has failed. Tavros thinks of himself as weak because he is not ruthless like Vriska. Karkat has always tried to be ruthless, and his character growth was about noticing this wasn't his own nature. Gamzee is just nuts, and the other trolls ignore him because he is the strongest troll in the meteor, so fighting him is too dangerous.

[Jayngfet]

One word: aliens. You have to remember they are a ruthless civilization. They are expected to be murderers.

Yeah, but again, you have to put a limit to their crazy alien nature or else being able to actually relate to them becomes difficult.

I mean, I barely get the feeling that any of these people were so much as friends of friends. I mean people sometimes point out that Rose and Jade barely talk but their worldviews aren't nearly as blatantly contradictory as like, Eridan being in the same group as Tavros.

You can't just say "these people are friends" then have them not even glance when someone they know is paralyzed from the waist down for no discernible reason. I mean, even Troll Society apparently has some form of justice system so it's not some kind of lawless murderworld the fandom often uses to excuse these actions, even if it's only a few steps removed.

[Squark]

a) I think the trolls really only bonded as a group when they were essentially put in a situation where teamwork was mandatory, so the "Friends of Friends" thing is fairly accurate for their actions pre-sgrub. As for Rose and Jade... You know, I never noticed that. To be fair, though, they are the two B1 kids who got the least screen time, so it does make some sense.

b) I don't think there's actually anyone on Alterania to police the adolescent troll's behavior. All the adults are off-planet.

Agree with you on the relatable thing. That's kind of coming to a head at the moment for me, although part of it is I'd really rather see the meteor crew getting some character development or what the sprites are up to instead of John being derpy.

[Cavelcade]

Homestuck isn't trying to teach a lesson or convey a message

Incorrect - it's pretty clearly (especially at that point) satirising the internet culture/subcultures. This is always done with the aim of conveying a message.j

I don't think this is unusual for HS at all - like I said, the whole thing seems satirical to me.

[AgentPaper]

Incorrect - it's pretty clearly (especially at that point) satirising the internet culture/subcultures. This is always done with the aim of conveying a message.j

I don't think this is unusual for HS at all - like I said, the whole thing seems satirical to me.

What does satire have to do with conveying a message? It's not trying to teach us anything about the internet.

[Cavelcade]

What does satire have to do with conveying a message? It's not trying to teach us anything about the internet.

I don't think you know what a satire is.

Edit: Sorry, just realised that sounds really mean. But anyway: "Satire is a genre of literature, and sometimes graphic and performing arts, in which vices, follies, abuses, and shortcomings are held up to ridicule, ideally with the intent of shaming individuals, and society itself, into improvement. Although satire is usually meant to be funny, its greater purpose is often constructive social criticism, using wit as a weapon."

I can't think of a better summary of Homestuck than that.

[AgentPaper]

I don't think you know what a satire is.

Edit: Sorry, just realised that sounds really mean. But anyway: "Satire is a genre of literature, and sometimes graphic and performing arts, in which vices, follies, abuses, and shortcomings are held up to ridicule, ideally with the intent of shaming individuals, and society itself, into improvement. Although satire is usually meant to be funny, its greater purpose is often constructive social criticism, using wit as a weapon."

I can't think of a better summary of Homestuck than that.

It's in your definition, "its greater purpose is often constructive social criticism, using wit as a weapon."

Satire is often used to convey a message, but that doesn't mean that all satire conveys a message. That's not to say that you can't learn something from Homestuck anyways, but there's no underlying idea that Hussie is trying to convey throughout the story.

Sometimes, comedy is just comedy.

[Cavelcade]

It's in your definition, "its greater purpose is often constructive social criticism, using wit as a weapon."

Satire is often used to convey a message, but that doesn't mean that all satire conveys a message. That's not to say that you can't learn something from Homestuck anyways, but there's no underlying idea that Hussie is trying to convey throughout the story.

It's pretty clearly critiquing various parts of internet subcultures in various stages, and also as a complete work (more effectively at some times than others). I don't have time to make the arguments again right now, but the most obvious, blatant, in your face example is the alpha-trolls. They could not be any more of a satire short of eating Irish babies.

[Doran]

Hm if Hussie's message is don't be a troll, then it is rather undercut by his own actions.

[super dark33]

Hm if Hussie's message is don't be a troll, then it is rather undercut by his own actions.

Beer is poison, I drink it to save you from it.

[Dragonus45]

Gets their characterization off? So you honestly wish for the characters to stay static and go through absolutely no changes after going through life for 3 years? You honestly don't think that would change a person in the slightest?

Ummmmm its the reverse, i feel like they haven't changed and that what characterization they did get has been tossed out for cheap jokes.

[Cavelcade]

Beer is poison, I drink it to save you from it.

You're the hero this world needs, but not the one it deserves. I salute you sir.

[super dark33]

You're the hero this world needs, but not the one it deserves. I salute you sir.

In the world I am the hero.
It's me.