MS Paint Adventures 7: At the Price of Oblivion

[Calemyr]

Alternatively, it's possible that Caliborn may have just confused John with Jake? The two do look rather similar, not accounting for clothes differences.

That's just it. The way John's teleportation is portrayed so far, it isn't included in canon, and that's what gives it so much power - no doomed timelines, no inescapable alpha timeline. So according to canon, Jake has to fight Caliborn. John fighting Caliborn doesn't exist in canon, because he teleported there, so it wouldn't be in the "script", as it were.

So either the LoFaF massacre is canon, and thus Jake has to somehow survive despite clearly having died, or John's teleporting away has already screwed up canon, and it was never supposed to happen.

[Squark]

Spoiler: Original Reaction to Game Over

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Whoa. It's Hivebent all over again. It's a corpse party and everyone is invited. Well, we've found that the ring "permanently" brings people back to life (although they still die if they are killed while not wearing the ring), and this colossal muck up is entirely thanks to our resident Beforus busybody.

At least Kanaya got to go Psycho-Slayer on Gamzee before she died. She's wanted to for three years, and now we see how right she was in the first place. I'd love to see that clown come back from that.

Spoiler: Thinking it Over

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I can see a few ways this could go forward.
1) John teleports and steals his ring back from Gamzee/Aranea before she can wear it.
2) John/Condesce use the ring to resurrect individuals that matter to them and the plot moves on. (Condesce likely has use for Jane, Jade, and Kanaya)
3) Everyone who's dead now goes to the dream bubbles and learn a lot from them, but stay dead while the plot moves on (like Hivebent).
4) Jane survives because the "just" death was that of her AI alter-ego (how is dying while mind controlled "just"?). She does a lifey thing that relieves some of the damage (probably can't help Karkat or Gamzee, as one fell into the lava and the other is in four pieces).

One thing worth noting? Jake hasn't fulfilled his obligation yet to the creation of Lord English. The page was supposed to be the rival that finally pushed him over the edge, wasn't he? John's epic beat down of the Lord of Time was do to his teleport, so it's not "canon", which is to say not predetermined by causality, while the clustercuddle back on the Land of Frost and Frogs is "canon" because nothing that led up to it is related to John's teleporting (unless John's presence would have prevented it, which I suppose is possible, but I doubt it). For the canon story to work right, Jake needs to survive this. I believe the outcome now no longer requires this thanks to John, but the whole value of teleporting is that canon is blind to it. So it seems very likely that canon is still in play and something is meant to intervene and bring at least Jake (whose death was officially labeled heroic and thus real) back from the brink. Come to think of it, Condesce might do that herself, seeing Jake as the best weapon in her arsenal against her master.

I'm still not convinced Gamzee is dead. And I won't be until we see the whites of his eyes (Err... that pun worked better in my head). I'm still expecting that stupid clown to drag himself out of the lava.

[Great equalizer]

It was Karkat who fell into lava. Gamzee was bisected vertically.

[Squark]

It was Karkat who fell into lava. Gamzee was bisected vertically.

Assuming the parts didn't fall into the lava on their own, the piece of jade's house being hit certainly dumped them in there.

I mean, a freak accident might have led to them being elsewhere like what happened to Terezi, but in the absence of more information, it's safe to assume Gamzee ended up taking a very hot bath.

[Aquillion]

Oddly, it looked like Terezi was falling into the lava the first time Aranea telekinetically threw her, and that Aranea grabbed her in midair and slammed her to the land instead.

If Terezi does survive, I would speculate that it might be because Aranea was actually trying to spare her for Vriska's sake or something along those lines.

[Randomguy]

Is no one going to mention all of the video game details that got release? Because all of the Homestuck Game details got released, and it sounds AWESOME.

[Squark]

There's also a thread on the MSPA forums that compiles information- Definately worth checking out

[Teln]

Where'd the giant candy corns come from again? I think I missed something.

[Great equalizer]

Where'd the giant candy corns come from again? I think I missed something.

They used to be in the site's top panel. Caliborn stuffed them into Homestuck cartridge along with fairy dust a few acts earlier.

[Squark]

They haven't appeared before, but yeah, they were stuffed in the Act 6 cartridge along with the stardust.

[GorinichSerpant]

Spoiler: New Update

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Speaking of Stardust, Dirk currently consists of it, the question I'm wondering is if Dirk will ever be back together now that he's given up on life. As Princes have the ability to destroy things, but there was no mention of them assembling anything, Dirk is effectively Dead now, unless someone else can put him together.
Any guesses what the first thing John will tell Rose after 3 years is going to be?

[Great equalizer]

What the hell. Which part of that was Heroic?

[Derjuin]

Spoiler: potato

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What the hell. Which part of that was Heroic?

If I were to hazard a guess, it's because she died in the process of attempting to avenge a lost love.

Time for John's long training process/montage in the not-afterlife so he can learn how to control his uncanon so he can save everyone from the afterlife!

[Oracle_Hunter]

Spoiler: potato

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If I were to hazard a guess, it's because she died in the process of attempting to avenge a lost love.

Time for John's long training process/montage in the not-afterlife so he can learn how to control his uncanon so he can save everyone from the afterlife!

Spoiler

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Yeah, apparently Failed Rage Revenge Killings = Heroic in Sburb

Well, there's another way that John is never going to actually die

[The Mormegil]

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I think people are reading too much into heroic / just. It's meant to replicate what actually happens in story as a game mechanic - you can't die in a way that wouldn't fit in a book not written by Martin.

Rose died as a hero could have - there's plenty of heroes getting killed by the BBEG while trying to avenge a loved one.

[AgentPaper]

Spoiler

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I think people are reading too much into heroic / just. It's meant to replicate what actually happens in story as a game mechanic - you can't die in a way that wouldn't fit in a book not written by Martin.

Rose died as a hero could have - there's plenty of heroes getting killed by the BBEG while trying to avenge a loved one.

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To me, the heroic part of it was more about how she died, rather than why. She died in the arms of her estranged maughter (totally a word), finally saying that she loved her after all the conflict they had.

[Oracle_Hunter]

Spoiler

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I think people are reading too much into heroic / just. It's meant to replicate what actually happens in story as a game mechanic - you can't die in a way that wouldn't fit in a book not written by Martin.

Rose died as a hero could have - there's plenty of heroes getting killed by the BBEG while trying to avenge a loved one.

Spoiler

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No, that's true. It's just disappointing to go from previous Heroic Deaths like, say, shielding your loved one from harm to "OMG KILLLLLL *zap*."

I'm not saying it's not proper, but it is anti-climactic.

Anyhow, this the New Type of Doom timeline so I'm mostly waiting for John to pop back to put the New Alpha timeline back on track.

While we're waiting for Hussie to Get On With It why not speculate on which Canon Characters will remain dead in the probable New Alpha?

• Kanaya: because Rose needs more tragedy in her life.
• Terezi: well at the end of her character arc; time to clear the stage.
• Jade: for the time being. Dog Tier is too much power to have romping around at the moment.
• Aranea: we already have too many Jack Noirs, thank you very much

I also predict that Jake won't have his Full Power Unleashed in the New Alpha. That's a nice Eleventh Hour Superpower to keep in your back pocket.

[Squark]

Hrrm... I still think we're going to see Caliope making friends with the deceased members of the cast before John does a snapback.

[Oracle_Hunter]

Hrrm... I still think we're going to see Caliope making friends with the deceased members of the cast before John does a snapback.

Perhaps, but presumably TTT will wipe their memories when New Alpha is created. Since we're still waiting for Jade's interactions, I figure we'll skip the other people who will come back to life in New Alpha and just have Jade's scene.

[The Mormegil]

I still think this is going to be the Alpha Timeline, due to Aranea's meddling and John canonifying-powers.

[Shadow of the Sun]

For those who are wondering who were wondering why these deaths were considered Heroic and the like, the latest post under the blog explains a fair bit of it in a way that makes sense.

And Hussie also gets in a few laughs at us fans.

It's a good read.

[Oracle_Hunter]

For those who are wondering who were wondering why these deaths were considered Heroic and the like, the latest post under the blog explains a fair bit of it in a way that makes sense.

And Hussie also gets in a few laughs at us fans.

It's a good read.

Thanks for the heads up!

It looks like Hussie is going with "intent" as the essence of Heroic/Just -- making a special note that Mind Control would not normally count. Personally, I'm a bit surprised to see how much effort Hussie goes through to justify the Mind Control exception but that's just more grist for the mill.

Amusingly, this makes the chronically uncertain John all the more likely to survive while his more decisive friends get waxed. On a meta level, it builds up an interesting endorsement of Passivity in the work: 99% of everything is predetermined, the most decisive/active characters are either villains (e.g. Jack) or most prone to suffer (e.g. Dirk) and the key protagonist is the one who "goes with the flow" more often than not. I'm not at all sure Hussie intends to write this theme into his work, but his latest post adds a lot of support to this thesis.

Also, Ruffio did a thing

[Shadow of the Sun]

Update!

(It wasn't listed on the site at the time that I post this; I'm just obsessive and always check the latest strip for a link before going away)

Spoiler

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Thank Glub for Seer powers and figuring out that John can do stuff.

Like, while I wouldn't be opposed to the current deaths being permanent, I'm also cool with John going back and fixing stuff.

[Oracle_Hunter]

Update!

(It wasn't listed on the site at the time that I post this; I'm just obsessive and always check the latest strip for a link before going away)

Spoiler

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Thank Glub for Seer powers and figuring out that John can do stuff.

Like, while I wouldn't be opposed to the current deaths being permanent, I'm also cool with John going back and fixing stuff.

I don't even check Homestuck anymore. I just wait for the fan who is N+1 more obsessive than I am to post there's an update a potato here

Spoiler

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That was some pretty hardcore sad talk there

[Draconi Redfir]

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people on tumblr have noticed that terezi's shoes look unusally sparkly.

[Aquillion]

Amusingly, this makes the chronically uncertain John all the more likely to survive while his more decisive friends get waxed. On a meta level, it builds up an interesting endorsement of Passivity in the work: 99% of everything is predetermined, the most decisive/active characters are either villains (e.g. Jack) or most prone to suffer (e.g. Dirk) and the key protagonist is the one who "goes with the flow" more often than not. I'm not at all sure Hussie intends to write this theme into his work, but his latest post adds a lot of support to this thesis.

I'm not sure it's so much an endorsement of passivity as it is a statement that God Tiers can only be killed once they've chosen a side. If you're not committed and not involved, you can't die yet.

But I would assume that the implication is that a God Tier is intended to pick something to commit themselves to eventually and that the purpose of their immortality is to keep them alive until then -- you're protected from meaningless deaths because they're meaningless, not because the game is trying to encourage you to live a meaningless life.

(Hussie also goes out of his way to point out that the way the system works is not necessarily supposed to be seen as moral or didactic. I mean, in the Homestuck universe, your entire planet will get destroyed because some kids are playing a children's card game and you can get condemned to a painful wasting meaningless existence simply because you did something you weren't supposed to do, with no indication of what you're supposed to do... so I think it's fair to say that the sburb / sgrub rules are meant to be seen as pretty horrible.)

[Oracle_Hunter]

I'm not sure it's so much an endorsement of passivity as it is a statement that God Tiers can only be killed once they've chosen a side. If you're not committed and not involved, you can't die yet.

But I would assume that the implication is that a God Tier is intended to pick something to commit themselves to eventually and that the purpose of their immortality is to keep them alive until then -- you're protected from meaningless deaths because they're meaningless, not because the game is trying to encourage you to live a meaningless life.

(Hussie also goes out of his way to point out that the way the system works is not necessarily supposed to be seen as moral or didactic. I mean, in the Homestuck universe, your entire planet will get destroyed because some kids are playing a children's card game and you can get condemned to a painful wasting meaningless existence simply because you did something you weren't supposed to do, with no indication of what you're supposed to do... so I think it's fair to say that the sburb / sgrub rules are meant to be seen as pretty horrible.)

Ah, but that's why I said it's a theme across the work. The whole concept of the Alpha Timeline is that You Can't Fight Fate and, indeed, every attempt to do so results in a Doomed Timeline. Ambitious and/or active characters come to Bad Ends (e.g. Rose, Vriska) or are outright Villains (i.e. Caliborn) while more passive and/or befuddled ones (e.g. John, Karkat) are the ostensible focus of the plot. Now we see another example of how being committed is hazardous to your health (e.g. the distinction between John and Rose's Deaths in the post) -- it's all building up into an interesting picture.

Again, I'm not saying Hussie is intending to communicate this theme, but it sure looks like it's in there.

[Tectonic Robot]

Well, passive characters are likely to survive longer. That's kind of how it works in the real world, right? If you shut up and keep your head down, you last longer. In Paradox Space, if you don't do much, you can't be killed, because you're neither a hero nor a villain. That... makes some sense, doesn't it?

[Oracle_Hunter]

Well, passive characters are likely to survive longer. That's kind of how it works in the real world, right? If you shut up and keep your head down, you last longer. In Paradox Space, if you don't do much, you can't be killed, because you're neither a hero nor a villain. That... makes some sense, doesn't it?

Ironically, no.

But since we can't discuss Real World Topics here, I won't get into it, but look through urban violence in America and search for "bystander."

Really the more interesting point is it's not just survival. Doing things (aside from killing yourself on Quest Beds) is mostly the preserve of Villains -- and the few protagonists who do try to do anything tend to meet bad ends. Even accepting that "active people are more likely to die" it doesn't follow that being proactive would be a unifying characteristic of Villainy.

[Tectonic Robot]

I think the trope of passive people survive but live lives not worth living is engraved deeply enough in my cultural conscience that I am befuddled by your response.

Its worth noting, though, that universe has been brought about by the choices of the players; if Vriska wasn't the type to want to claim responsibility for everything, than Jack wouldn't have existed, would he? Did Scratch influence her growth specifically to aid in the creation.

Actually, now that I'm really thinking about it, and considering a few impressive headcanons I've perused, I think the reason it seems like the most active characters are villains is because the most active character in the whole story, the one who's best able to control the flow of the narrative, Caliborn, is also the main foe. Which is better than them being a hero, for story purposes, but still. As Lord of Time, part of his class aspect is that he's the cause of the everything--Time itself bends over backwards to make his whims come true.

Uh. Where was I going with this?

Something something characters make the alpha timeline with their choices and personalities, the reason why when Terezi mislead John it led to a doomed timeline is because Dave would always time travel back to save him based on his personality, if he wouldn't care than it wouldn't have happened, and thus the trolls would never have existed in the first place. Its a big dance based on the people they are. Or something.