MS Paint Adventures 7: At the Price of Oblivion

[Draconi Redfir]

fair enough. i still stand by the idea that the troll session was more or less an example of a "standard session" as all the stuff that went wrong (asside from failing to include that last frog) didn't happen until after the game was finished, they faced their denizins, completed their quests, one or two of them became gods, and they created a universe, they didn't get to live in said universe of course but that's not the point. they still won the race, a psychotic serial killer just ran in and started shooting everyone up before they had the chance to touch the shiny trophy.

[Calemyr]

fair enough. i still stand by the idea that the troll session was more or less an example of a "standard session" as all the stuff that went wrong (asside from failing to include that last frog) didn't happen until after the game was finished, they faced their denizins, completed their quests, one or two of them became gods, and they created a universe, they didn't get to live in said universe of course but that's not the point. they still won the race, a psychotic serial killer just ran in and started shooting everyone up before they had the chance to touch the shiny trophy.

Absolutely. The game has considerations for several odd cases, it seems. Multiple ways to achieve god tier, multiple ways to deal with the Jack, the option of a scratch to redo unwinnable games, etc. Killing the denizens is a perfectly legitimate option, and in some ways it's the expedient one. No drama, just a good old fashioned beat-down, a proper boss battle, and a reward of a grist hoard and some serious ladder climbing. It is the "video game"-type solution and results in "video game"-type rewards - a veritable flood of immediate, tangible upgrades and resources. Talking to the Denizens results in opening up new avenues through which to advance the game - either through personal growth, the introduction of game changing gear (Echidna's Quills and Caeldbolg), or manipulating the timeline to allow more advantageous outcomes (Davesprite). These rewards, even the gear, are not substantial upgrades - they only create opportunities that didn't exist before.

Doc Scratch manipulated the Alternian trolls to mold them into the perfect tools for his purposes: aggressive and persistent enough to win, but too arrogant and direct to see the subtext and meaning behind the game. Thus they chose the solution they were trained for: big brutal conflicts and conquests resulting in immediate gratification.

[Oracle_Hunter]

Potato!

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So TTT is beginning to look like regular Time Travel -- just with Hussie pulling the strings instead of Lord English.

That is to say: stable time loops that appear in New Alpha even though every other TTT only showed after it was triggered. Color me disappointed

[Calemyr]

Potato!

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So TTT is beginning to look like regular Time Travel -- just with Hussie pulling the strings instead of Lord English.

That is to say: stable time loops that appear in New Alpha even though every other TTT only showed after it was triggered. Color me disappointed

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I don't think that's quite right. It's just that it might have to remain consistent with itself, while Time Travel has to remain consistent with Time Travel. English routinely puts himself in a position which limits the potential of Time Travel to only those paths that result in him being able to get into that position to begin with.

Also, there was a point in the story where John did not come back to stop himself, and that resulted in Jade and Dave being interrupted from what was obviously a very important heart-to-heart conversation. John added the loop after the fact - altering events (by undoing the alteration he'd already made) without invalidating the timeline in either case.

Put simply: One is bound by canon while the other redefines canon.
Time Travel: That loop had to happen because it did happen. Any timeline in which it didn't happen isn't valid.
Teleportation: The loop was introduced only upon completion. It did not have to be there for the timeline to be valid, but once it was added it was always there, like the addition of John's hand or the removal of oil from previous canon.

Here's another question to bake your noodle over: In time travel, the entire path has to make sense. The loop has to have a fully integrated beginning, middle, and ending, even if they aren't in the same time line, to remain stable. So here's the question: what instigated John's loop? John is lead to master his powers by a John who started mastering his powers because he was told by a John to master his powers... There is no beginning to the loop. That scat wouldn't fly in time travel, but it apparently is perfectly legit with teleportation. I was always assuming Dave or Jade would tell him that this was a critical point where it all went wrong, and that's probably how it actually happened, but now the loop is established canon while the events that instigated it are not. (Likely it was over-writen by the loop. Once the loop was set in place, the events that started it no longer occur. Since it's editing canon, however, the original events are not preserved as a doomed timeline, they simply cease to exist making it a somewhat brutal alternative to time travel. Come to think of it, John's ability is more like the Scratch than time travel - utterly destroying the original and replacing it with the altered version. So perhaps John's ability shouldn't be referred to as TTT or Teleportation, but rather as Scratching.)

[Radar]

Potato!

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So TTT is beginning to look like regular Time Travel -- just with Hussie pulling the strings instead of Lord English.

That is to say: stable time loops that appear in New Alpha even though every other TTT only showed after it was triggered. Color me disappointed

Spoiler

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I wouldn't think so: stable loops can still happen, but the main difference seems to be that John is fully unstuck from the timeline he alters - this alone is enough to make him able to truly alter reality. He still has his own personal timeline, which might react to all those shananigans the regular way.

[Rakaydos]

The way I see it, it's less a stable time loop, and more a fix for an unstable time loop.

Originally, John blinked in, messed up the timeline and blinked out. Then he went back and fixed his retcon. And vanished. but then he never stopped himself, so he went back...
With this retcon, Jon Stabilized the unstable time loop by going back and sending himself away, so he could have a long day that circles around to sending himself away.

He still CAN do unstable time loops, but when they affect himself they result in mobius timelines.

[Grytorm]

Hello again. I have not been following this thread for a while but a long time ago I had an idea for a new thread title. So MS Paint Adventures 8: Ride Playground Like Mechanical Bull.

[Squark]

Well, it looks like your fears were unfounded, Oracle Hunter! (EDIT: Wow, that came off smugger than I meant it to. This wasn't meant as an "I told you so," or anything like that)

Also, this is a very intersting way to handle changing the timeline.

[Calemyr]

Question: Has anyone tried entering anything other than "Home" from the Libra page? I have to imagine that there's at least a few hidden pages accessible through that.

[Oracle_Hunter]

Well, it looks like your fears were unfounded, Oracle Hunter! (EDIT: Wow, that came off smugger than I meant it to. This wasn't meant as an "I told you so," or anything like that)

Also, this is a very intersting way to handle changing the timeline.

Meh, I'm happy Hussie made another Author's Saving Throw. Not that I should be surprised -- he's the very best there is at making them!

[Calemyr]

Meh, I'm happy Hussie made another Author's Saving Throw. Not that I should be surprised -- I believe you'll find that, when it comes to making Author's Saving Throws, Hussie is simply the best there is.

There. Fixed that for you.

That said, is it a saving throw when it was your plan all along? If this was his intent from the beginning of the intermission, is it a saving throw or just people basing opinions on incomplete information?

[Oracle_Hunter]

That said, is it a saving throw when it was your plan all along? If this was his intent from the beginning of the intermission, is it a saving throw or just people basing opinions on incomplete information?

Intentionality is tricky for the audience to determine. My point was more that Hussie has often used narrative-risky tools that, in the hand of a different author, could easily result in something terrible. Yet, despite the danger, Hussie always rolls a Natural 20.

[Calemyr]

Intentionality is tricky for the audience to determine. My point was more that Hussie has often used narrative-risky tools that, in the hand of a different author, could easily result in something terrible. Yet, despite the danger, Hussie always rolls a Natural 20.

Ah, I see. So you're saying "he takes risks but always manages to pull it off", rather than "he makes mistakes, annoys the audience, and then finds a way to make it work after the fact". I misunderstood. Sorry about that.

[Sigh]

Intentionality is tricky for the audience to determine. My point was more that Hussie has often used narrative-risky tools that, in the hand of a different author, could easily result in something terrible. Yet, despite the danger, Hussie always rolls a Natural 20.

It's less that he rolls a Natural 20 every time, and more that he's actually a Diplomancer in disguise, and his occasional Nat 1s are still pretty good.

[Randomguy]

Spoiler: upd8

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Well, these two seem like they're being a lot more flirtatious with each other than I remembered.

[Derjuin]

Spoiler: upd8

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I'm expecting something horrible to happen, mostly because anything related to Gamzee, clowns, or fun in general tends to cause horrible things to happen in this story.

[some guy]

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I like that Hussie is in the Horse-A-Whirl. Made me on the lookout for him in the other pages.

[GorinichSerpant]

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I like that Hussie is in the Horse-A-Whirl. Made me on the lookout for him in the other pages.

Spoiler: up8

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Yeah, your right, that is really amusing.

[Draconi Redfir]

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I'm kind of a Meenkat supporter, but at the same time... i think i ship it...

[Teln]

I'm still holding out for Terezi/Vriska. Still.

[Randomguy]

I'm still holding out for Terezi/Vriska. Still.

As a kismesis? :P

[smuchmuch]

Spoiler: New Update

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Best death scene ever

[Randomguy]

Spoiler: New Update

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Best death scene ever

Spoiler: New Update

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I'm a terrible person for laughing. But I laughed. I laughed hard.


Also, just when I thought I had John's Time Travel Thing figured out, it gets more confusing: He doesn't change his own past?

[mythmonster2]

Spoiler: New Update

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I'm a terrible person for laughing. But I laughed. I laughed hard.


Also, just when I thought I had John's Time Travel Thing figured out, it gets more confusing: He doesn't change his own past?

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The way I've been thinking about it is that John is now acting as if he's in his own timeline, completely unaffected by whatever changes in others. He could screw up and kill his baby self as it rode on the meteor to Earth and he'd still be there.

[Randomguy]

I was looking through the homestuck map, and I found a neat visual callback that I missed before! Between here and here.

[Hytheter]

I was looking through the homestuck map, and I found a neat visual callback that I missed before! Between here and here.

I wonder how many times Hussie has had to replace his "ctrl" "c" and "v" keys

I bet it's a lot

[Draconi Redfir]

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i'm still upset that kanaya never showed up and got into a humansona. then we could have all three space players together!

oh well, at least i have that fan comic.

[Squark]

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i'm still upset that kanaya never showed up and got into a humansona. then we could have all three space players together!

oh well, at least i have that fan comic.

Eh, Jane and Calliope still have some talking to do, at least (Or Jane and Jade). I don't think they're going to poof out of existence quite yet.

Humansona does seem unlikely, though. :(

Also, I think I have the solution to the 1st Paradox Space Puzzle (Somebody correct my logic if I've messed up).

Spoiler: Don't open if you want the solution spoiled

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Rose -> Wayward Vagabond
Dave -> Terezi
Wayward Vagabond -> Gamzee
Karkat -> Dave
Kanaya -> Rose
Terezi -> Kanaya
Gamzee -> Karkat
Explanation
1) Kanaya is giving a gift to someone of the same gender who isn't a troll. This leaves only Rose as an Option.
2) Terezi is giving a gift to someone of the same gender, and that person isn't Rose. This leaves Kanaya.
3) Karkat is giving a gift to a Male non-Troll. Since his gift has a bow, it isn't going to Wayward Vagabond. That means he must be giving his carving to Dave.
4) Rose is also giving a gift to a Male non-Troll, but her gift does not have a bow, so she's giving a gift to Wayward Vagabond
5) Dave is giving a gift to a female, and Rose and Kanaya are already recieving gifts, so his goes to Terezi.
6) With only one male left to give a gift to, Gamzee must be giving his present to Karkat
7) By process of elimination, Wayward Vagabond's gift goes to Gamzee.

[Sigh]

On an unrelated note, this last batch of updates seems to have looped back into previous pages instead of stopping at some point, or was that fixed?

[GM_3826]

On an unrelated note, this last batch of updates seems to have looped back into previous pages instead of stopping at some point, or was that fixed?

It's either that a:
You failed to realize that there was a password to enter,
or b:
I have no idea what you're talking about.