The ExFighter

[Arcanist]

A Protean is uniquely capable of attacking your near Sigil, and I suspect one would do so very shortly after you start, so this is a complex way to commit suicide.

Ah, right. the Spell Immunity is Ex. My mistake. I am, however curious how a Protean is able to use it's Su abilities in the Outlands

[Snowbluff]

If the AMF is not produced by magic, that sentence is inoperative.

If it acts like AMF, then the term magic in the sentence is fluff. "Magic" in this case refers to the effect of the AMF. I would regardless of the method of producing AMF, the effect is magical. I suspect the Ex descriptor is so that the AMF does not prevent itself from operating by disabling the creature's abilities (using an awful ruling of AMF).

In short, the AMF would have every property of AMF as the spell, unless specifically noted otherwise.

[Anthrowhale]

it's for finding them in the first place

Right, that's what I understood. I could imagine campaigns where access to high level casters is easy, and others where gather information is strongly required. It is usable untrained and the build optimizes charisma so it's plausible something could be worked out.

... hats ... Shrink Item

I'm familiar with the tactic. I'm also skeptical about it's use without accidents. For example, wizards are also typically flying so any such hat would make falling much more hazardous.

Still, it's a great feature for if you have some other means of catching him by surprise.

There are many other approaches built in. The skill trick "Sudden Draw", "Hidden Blade", and "Acrobatic Backstab" are all effective. The last can be combined with a 10' step (as per Oriental Adventures Tumble skill). White Raven Strike is also relevant.

curious how a Protean is able to use it's Su abilities in the Outlands

Why would it need to?

regardless of the method of producing AMF, the effect is magical.

You are explicitly ignoring the rules here which state:

Extraordinary abilities are nonmagical...

I've gone through quite a bit of effort to obey the rules as best I can, so I'm not ready to throw them aside so easily.

[GreenSerpent]

I see one small problem.

You need to spend a move action each round to maintain your form, so that makes Full-Round actions impossible without outside assistance like a Belt of Battle. A mage could easily outspeed you and set up a non-magical trap (for example dropping a ton of non-magical rock and stone onto you) I'd suggest Assume Supernatural Ability and the Chronotryn's Dual Actions to help with this.

Also, your throwing tactic relies on you using Alter Form (Marilith Arms). What one of your abilities would you give up in order to use them? Give up the Keeper Immunities and hello Shaper Psion lobbing poison at you, give up the Prismatic Golem infinite SR and hello Invoke Magicked spells, give up the Colossus Antimagic Field and... ouch, give up the Lightning Strike and the Wizard will probably have the surprise round and enough time to Teleport away.

[Anthrowhale]

You need to spend a move action each round to maintain your form, so that makes Full-Round actions impossible

The precise consequences of not stabilizing your form are not spelled out here:

In fact, a protean’s form constantly boils, and it requires a move-equivalent action each round for a protean to maintain a certain shape (even if that shape is a combination of several shapes).

However, the statement:

No matter its form, the protean can never make more than five attacks using a full-round action.

Implies that full-round actions are feasible in alternate forms.

My interpretation of the first sentence is that it takes a move equivalent action to keep the form from boiling, but that an action need not be taken to keep the precise details of the form. The first sentence then implies that hiding Ex's protean nature requires a move equivalent action every round.

What one of your abilities would you give up in order to use them?

None of them. This:

A protean can assume the shape of any combination of physical nondeific creatures at the same time as a free action.

states that any physical shapes can be freely assumed. Arms are not Extraordinary abilities and hence they do not fall into the budget of 4.

[The Glyphstone]

However, the statement:
Quote:
No matter its form, the protean can never make more than five attacks using a full-round action.
Implies that full-round actions are feasible in alternate forms.

My interpretation of the first sentence is that it takes a move equivalent action to keep the form from boiling, but that an action need not be taken to keep the precise details of the form. The first sentence then implies that hiding Ex's protean nature requires a move equivalent action every round.

So...what does the form boiling do? If you keep your precise details even if it's boiling, why bother ever taking a move action?

[TuggyNE]

So...what does the form boiling do? If you keep your precise details even if it's boiling, why bother ever taking a move action?

It strikes me there's some missing rules here, as the phrasing suggests that there's supposed to be some penalty if the protean doesn't take a move action — for example, losing, or randomly changing, one of its four available ability imitation slots every round. Unfortunately, RAW doesn't make it at all clear what that penalty should be, or even how severe, so it's probably not too relevant for this thread, except as a minor increased load on the enormous pile of cheese.

[Snowbluff]

You are explicitly ignoring the rules here which state:

I've gone through quite a bit of effort to obey the rules as best I can, so I'm not ready to throw them aside so easily.

And casting an AMF is inherently throwing iron shaving at the ground. Can I have the source for your AMF? Unless it states the field (not how you produce it) it different from the spell, I don't buy it.

[Anthrowhale]

So...what does the form boiling do?

I had assumed that form boiling covers you in Boils at high speed. This would plausibly impose a significant penalty in social settings (-8?) except perhaps to Intimidate. It would also make it very clear that you are an unstable freak to anyone else around. To prevent these effects, a move action is required.

Can I have the source for your AMF?

Here.

[Snowbluff]

Here.

This effect is otherwise as an antimagic field cast by a 25th-level caster.

I have to say I disagree with your ruling, then. Oh well, ttyl. Thanks.

[Spuddles]

You'd also have problems using gear if your form is a horrid, boiling mass of flesh.

[The Glyphstone]

I had assumed that form boiling covers you in Boils at high speed. This would plausibly impose a significant penalty in social settings (-8?) except perhaps to Intimidate. It would also make it very clear that you are an unstable freak to anyone else around. To prevent these effects, a move action is required.



Here.

I believe the context is that it's not covering you in boils, it is making your morphic, non-solid body boil, as a heated liquid would. But as pointed out, there is no listed penalty for your entire body boiling, so it's moot anyways.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

I have to say I disagree with your ruling, then. Oh well, ttyl. Thanks.

You're definitely correct, Snowbluff, as the effect does specifically state that it otherwise functions as the spell cast by a level 25 caster. That throw-away line about magic is based on the fact that all other sources of anti-magic ARE magical abilities, and I would find any ruling that this is an intended interaction to be highly suspect. The intent behind the effect is clear, and interpreting it any other way is quite a stretch of even RAW: the system is full of throwaway lines like that.

That said, while this does open up the Sphere of Annihilation and artifact magic as a means to destroy this thing, my research into Extraordinary Abilities did turn up something interesting: we can't get rid of this things Anti-Magic field at all. To quote the D&D Glossary: "Extraordinary abilities (Ex) are nonmagical, don't become ineffective in an antimagic field, and are not subject to any effect that disrupts magic. Using an extraordinary ability is a free action unless otherwise noted."

This interaction is ALSO pretty easy to interpret with the anti-magic rules. It's in all other ways like the spell, so you could disrupt it...except that the rules for the type of ability it is clearly supersede that, since all extraordinary abilities are immune to any effect that disrupts magic.

Of course, there are a couple spells that can remove a creatures extraordinary abilities, if my memory serves me correctly. That might be precedent for the specific "as cast by a level 25th caster" case trumping the general case by including a specific weakness in the ability. Of course, the lack of text for how to re-institute the field makes me uncertain in either direction.

[Arcanist]

*Djinn's ultra-intelligent comment that must have taken a Knowledge (Game Mechanics) check 30 to actually make*

... Just say that the game made an oppsy again, okay? It will save us all a headache in trying to translate that

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

... Just say that the game made an oppsy again, okay? It will save us all a headache in trying to translate that

That's usually my thought in this situation, yes. The problem arises from the almost complete lack of ways to remove Extraordinary Abilities through magic. The only spell I can think of is from Serpent Kingdoms, and I hesitate to cite that as my precedent for allowing an Extraordinary Ability to be removed via dispel magic.

It wouldn't normally pose an issue in a game, but in this one case it's actually a big deal.

[Snowbluff]

... Just say that the game made an oppsy again, okay? It will save us all a headache in trying to translate that

Stand back, Arcanist, I have this.

You're definitely correct, Snowbluff...

Of course I am.Seems to me that the Collusus are under the effect of an altered AMF the was cast. Them generating (did they mean emanating?) it means I might be off about this, but if this is the case a single disjunction should remove it permanently.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

[COLOR="White"]Seems to me that the Collusus are under the effect of an altered AMF the was cast. Them generating (did they mean emanating?) it means I might be off about this, but if this is the case a single disjunction should remove it permanently.

By a very strict reading of RAW, this is the conclusion that I reached as well.

I highly doubt it's what is INTENDED, hence why I tried to figure it out. But, using purely RAW, I believe this is correct. It's not cast, per se, but it's existence and the lack of text for actually bringing the field up or down seems to indicate that it is a single-instance ability.

IF we can find rules for the ability to be an exception to the "no magical effects can remove an Extraordinary Ability" rule, we've got good grounds for saying that once gone, the ability is gone.

...rather a moot point in this exercise though, as it could easily be argued that gaining the ability again through form manipulation brings a new instance of the ability.

[Snowbluff]

By a very strict reading of RAW, this is the conclusion that I reached as well.

I highly doubt it's what is INTENDED, hence why I tried to figure it out. But, using purely RAW, I believe this is correct. It's not cast, per se, but it's existence and the lack of text for actually bringing the field up or down seems to indicate that it is a single-instance ability.

IF we can find rules for the ability to be an exception to the "no magical effects can remove an Extraordinary Ability" rule, we've got good grounds for saying that once gone, the ability is gone.

...rather a moot point in this exercise though, as it could easily be argued that gaining the ability again through form manipulation brings a new instance of the ability.

Agreed. I believe becoming a different Colossus will provide a new AMF.
Thanks, kind sir.
Additionally, the target still has Magic Immunity as well. Not very useful, but something might come up.

[Arcanist]

Additionally, the target still has Magic Immunity as well. Not very useful, but something might come up.

Check ANYTHING from the Stuffy Doll thread that was posted by Dex. Infinite damage loops out the Wazzo just to kill my precious dolly

[Snowbluff]

Check ANYTHING from the Stuffy Doll thread that was posted by Dex. Infinite damage loops out the Wazzo just to kill my precious dolly

Yeah, but how many of them work against something magic immune but NOT in an AMF?

[Arcanist]

Yeah, but how many of them work against something magic immune but NOT in an AMF?

This was my personal favorite. All of them had to work against something with infinite spell resistance

[Snowbluff]

This was my personal favorite. All of them had to work against something with infinite spell resistance

So... it really doesn't matter in most of your cases whether or not the enemy has an AMF, does it?

[Arcanist]

So... it really doesn't matter in most of your cases whether or not the enemy has an AMF, does it?

Please, the enemy could be the twice betrayer of Mystra gestalted with an Urudite with 5 Schism activated constantly if they wanted to and it would still be fairly moot. The tactics used in that thread were so utterly unthinkably broken that if any player walked up to me and even uttered the name stuffy doll I would ban him from D&D for all time.

... God forbid he tries to Origin of Species one up

EDIT: ... You ever feel stupid when the answer is right in front of you the whole time and you don't even notice it?

[Snowbluff]

EDIT: ... You ever feel stupid when the answer is right in front of you the whole time and you don't even notice it?

I try to make my conversations into learning experiences. Unfortunately I cannot tell a learning experience from an obfuscating riddle.

[Arcanist]

I try to make my conversations into learning experiences. Unfortunately I cannot tell a learning experience from an obfuscating riddle.

The solution to killing any thing in the multiverse is in my signature and I didn't notice it. Snowbluff, you so crazeh~

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

This was my personal favorite. All of them had to work against something with infinite spell resistance

That would definitely do the trick.

Of course, the ExFighter could probably snag a "treated like Undead" or "treated like a Construct" ability from somewhere and turn the Vile damage into normal damage, but he'd have to lose one of his other defenses to do so, so...

[Arcanist]

Of course, the ExFighter could probably snag a "treated like Undead" or "treated like a Construct" ability from somewhere and turn the Vile damage into normal damage, but he'd have to lose one of his other defenses to do so, so...

Quite the snag the little ExFighter is in, isn't it?

EDIT: If he is undead, he cannot have Regeneration making it moot really.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

EDIT: If he is undead, he cannot have Regeneration making it moot really.

See, I didn't think his type would change. I just wouldn't be surprised if there's an Extraordinary Ability in some book somewhere that lets him be treated as if he were undead and/or a construct: he'd still have his Constitution score, and thus still have Regeneration.

But I can't think of an example of such an ability off the top of my head and, unless presented with one, I think we have this guy nicely cornered.

[Snowbluff]

The solution to killing any thing in the multiverse is in my signature and I didn't notice it. Snowbluff, you so crazeh~

And you are an endless fountain of potential sig quotes. Now, if you'll excuse me I have to give a lecture on rhetorical questions to preschoolers.

[Arcanist]

And you are an endless fountain of potential sig quotes.

By all means

Now, if you'll excuse me I have to give a lecture on rhetorical questions to preschoolers.

I'm a smartass. Answering rhetorical questions matter as well be a class feature for me.